RE: Using the Metric System in USA - getting tape measures and others

[coogzilla]

Here we have no "Metric tape measures" the fellas at the hardware store
look confused when the subject of meters comes up. I had to do something. What I'm not sure. I got confused. Even more then usual.
Well, now what. I got these "Aussie" boat plans in metric. Well, I had a
rum$coke and took a nap. That worked wonders. Now I kinda got
it figured out. "GOOGLE"!!! has these conversion things. Yippee

The boat might be upside down when It's finished, but the spec's will
be right on. Keith

(Michael Storer - Boatmik - the designer replies below - look for the "IMPORTANT" in large print as it is very important not to convert all the measurements into another system - easier and simpler to use a metric tape measure)

[Dusty Dave]

Not sure if you are having a lend of us, but surely a tape measure with both metric and imperial can't be that hard to find?! Maybe get onto eBay and order one from your nearest civilised country.

Once you dip your toe in the 20th century you'll love it. Nest thing you know you'll be wanting some decent mains voltage...

Oh, and they aren't meters they're metres. Millimetres, centimetres, kilometres etc.
A meter is something which measures, a metre is a unit of length. Pass that along to the others would you?

:D

[Barry_White]

Here you go Coogzilla

A conversion tool from the ex big Australian.

http://www.bluescopesteel.com.au/index.cfm?objectid=CA9F3FE4-B0D0-E16E-5B37964B795E94A5

[joe greiner]

Here we have no "Metric tape measures" the fellas at the hardware store look confused when the subject of meters comes up. Keith

Balderdash. The clowns at the hardware store don't know their butts from last week. Although I did find a nice Stanley 33-115 at Lowes or Home Despot - conventional one face, "pi" on the other: inch marks are 3.1416" apart, so it measures the diameter directly by wrapping around the whatever. Not dual metric and Imperial though.

Have a look at McMaster-Carr ( http://www.mcmaster.com/ ). Select "Tape Rules" under "Measuring," etc.

Grizzly also has some ( http://www.grizzlyindustrial.com/ ). Enter "tape measures" in the search field.

Also, be alert for Cummins Industrial Tools travelling tent shows. They probably have a web site. My no. 3288 is 1" wide x 25 ft, with dual markings, inch/feet and cm/mm.

(Dave, please do a search for "spelling nazis." And as George Bernard Shaw said, "England and America are two countries separated by a common language.")

Joe

[m2c1Iw]

Balderdash. The clowns at the hardware store don't know their butts from last week. Although I did find a nice Stanley 33-115 at Lowes or Home Despot - conventional one face, "pi" on the other: inch marks are 3.1416" apart, so it measures the diameter directly by wrapping around the whatever. Not dual metric and Imperial though.

Have a look at McMaster-Carr ( http://www.mcmaster.com/ ). Select "Tape Rules" under "Measuring," etc.

Grizzly also has some ( http://www.grizzlyindustrial.com/ ). Enter "tape measures" in the search field.

Also, be alert for Cummins Industrial Tools travelling tent shows. They probably have a web site. My no. 3288 is 1" wide x 25 ft, with dual markings, inch/feet and cm/mm.

(Dave, please do a search for "spelling nazis." And as George Bernard Shaw said, "England and America are two countries separated by a common language.")

Joe

G'day Joe and Coogzilla,
You blokes have the best tool supplier (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=32564&cat=1,43513)next door.

Lee Valley is your friend.

Cheers Mike

[Boatmik]

Howdy All and thanks for this topic Coogzilla

Duckworks Magazine has a mail order service for tape measures.
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/tools/measure/index.htm

Chuck and Sandra are prompt and reliable and have good follow up if there are problems.

IMPORTANT

Please don't use any conversion tools - there is no way that you can go that way without making an error or 23. One guy got the tops of his bulkheads out by around an inch and a quarter by the time he had converted several of his measurements with the result his mast leant forward rather than back.

Conversions work OK for a single measurement but metric tape measures are the only way to minimise errors in a boat building project.

On the plus side - the metric system is a dream to use and the plans do have an imperial timber list and most timber sizings through the plans are in metric and imperial so you can see what is needed from the pile of timber in your shed. So identification information is in both systems.

But measuring information is only in metric (if you haven't met my plans before)

Best wishes
Michael

[Honorary Bloke]

Just had a walk out to the shed to check the model--a Stanley 30-824, 8 metres long, dual markings. Bought at Lowes right off the shelf. :)

[Daddles]

I'll second Mik's thoughts on measuring things rather than converting and measuring. The more steps you have in the process, the more places to go wrong.

Following that thought on, transfering measurements when you're working with full sized plans/bits is better done without using a ruler - use a board with one edge bevelled nice and thin, then lay board over the bit to be 'measured', put on a pencil mark, move the board to the other part of the job, transfer the pencil mark to the new job. The accumulating pencil marks can be 'rubbed' off with a chisel used as a scraper every now and then.

The theory is that when you use a ruler, you have the opportunity to make a mistake when reading the ruler, another mistake remembering the measurement and another mistake when making the final mark. Using a board (I can't remember the salty name for the damned thing:~) and pencil marks removes those three opportunities. Besides, it's quicker and easier on aging thought processess :-

Richard

[Boatmik]

Howdy Daddles,

It is a method I use a lot when there is a repeated measurement. But I do check the final overall measurement against the original too.

(as I know you do)

Michael

[Daddles]

I just remembered the name of the thing too, a 'pick up stick', which is a tad more obvious than the equally useful (but used for a different job) 'joggle stick' ... of which I have two :D

Richard

[Daddles]

The other gadget I use a lot are calipers - no, I never read them, I just set them on the job then take them to the bit to be cut out :2tsup:

Richard

[coogzilla]

OK guys what is a joggle stick?
We got a "Lowe's" but it's 40miles away. The people working there
are as talented as the ones working at McDonalds. On a good day
they can locate their aXX all by their own self. If you ask about a
"tape mesure" they say, what kinda tape? It comes in rolls. Oh, ok.
Well, . Mcmasters will have one most likley.

Unless one of you Aussie's want to send me one (-:
Keith

[Daddles]

A joggle stick is an amazingly useful wee gadget.

It's made out of sheet 'something' - ply, wood, tin, plastic. Mine are cut out of a piece of ply on the grounds that it's cheap and not hard to make another.

Basically, it is anywhere from a foot long, depending on the job. It's straight on one side and has randomly serrated teeth about 1" deep on the other with a point at the end. You can buy 'plans' for them, but that's not necessary, nor is it necessary to number the teeth though that can help with complicated jobs.

You use it for mapping out the shape of something.

For example, the shape of a seat top where you need to get the inside shape of the hull. You fix a piece of scrap ply to the seat frames. You then place your joggle stick on the scrap ply with the point against the inside of the hull and draw it. Remove the joggle stick, and you are left with its outline drawn on the ply. Do this for a cunningly selected number of spots. Remove the sheet of ply, lay it on top of your good ply, place the joggle stick inside its outline and mark on the good ply where the point is. You wind up with a series of points which mark out the inside of the hull, hence the 'cunning selection' of the points :D

Very quick and accurate if done carefully.

Numbered teeth can help locate which teeth line up where but in reality, if your teeth are randomly shaped and with a bit of thought, it's not hard to put the joggle stick in the right place.

Richard

[coogzilla]

Thank's Richard. I kinda get it. The "teeth" part has me confused.
Diagrams for a bozo like me would help a lot. Keith

[Daddles]

Sheesh, give a bloke a chance to take some photos :D

Here ya go

Richard

[Daddles]

And typically, it's been done before

http://woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showpost.php?p=388372&postcount=3

In this case, John's stick is slightly different to mine but the principle is still the same. There are other versions, some more complex, some amazingly complex. Some people even SELL these things which is a case of pandering to the overly financed - all you need is a lump of ply, a saw (I used my scroll saw) and a couple of minutes to make one.

Just reading John's description, I'd like to comment that I trace both sides of the stick - it's a bit easier to replace the joggle stick in my experience (having forgotten to do both sides on occasion). The tracings can overlap without drama though you can wind up scratching your nut if you go mad with the overlaps.

Richard

[m2c1Iw]

Hey Daddles,
Thanks for posting the jogglestick thing mate, you can learn something everyday especially on this forum.:2tsup:

Mike

[Boatmik]

I know some people - instead of having regular teeth - use a bunch of random shapes instead to make sure that it is always lined up unambiguously.

Mik

[joe greiner]

If I understand Richard's (Daddles) description correctly, another name for the "pick-up" stick is a "story-board." The objective is to avoid cumulative errors when measuring point-to-point. Lay out the work with all measurements from a common base point. Even better if the plans present measurements that way. The technical nomenclature is "true positioning." The units of measurement are immaterial, but doing conversions on the fly is an invitation to disaster.

Joe

[Check twice!]

Not sure if you are having a lend of us, but surely a tape measure with both metric and imperial can't be that hard to find?! Maybe get onto eBay and order one from your nearest civilised country.

Once you dip your toe in the 20th century you'll love it. Nest thing you know you'll be wanting some decent mains voltage...

Oh, and they aren't meters they're metres. Millimetres, centimetres, kilometres etc.
A meter is something which measures, a metre is a unit of length. Pass that along to the others would you?

:D

Your charm is interesting. :2tsup: He can always order one from Canada, we do have running water, do not live in igloos (political correct = ice house) a mail system that works well.

I like Metric! More accurate and easy to learn.
I was raised under the old system and when we went metric a wise move by our country. It was time to get with the program and join the world.

Through the eyes of John!
Have a great woodworking day

[m2c1Iw]

If I understand Richard's (Daddles) description correctly, another name for the "pick-up" stick is a "story-board." The objective is to avoid cumulative errors when measuring point-to-point. Lay out the work with all measurements from a common base point. Even better if the plans present measurements that way. The technical nomenclature is "true positioning." The units of measurement are immaterial, but doing conversions on the fly is an invitation to disaster.

Joe

Yep Joe,
I recon thats the exhaustive description, some of us would say it's a bloody good way of copying an irregular shape.:D:D

Mike

[coogzilla]

You guys are doin'g yer best to confuse me further. I got some ply
today. It showed up!! Yippee kai yay

[coogzilla]

Found one of those "meter" type tape measures. Amazon 7.99$

[Boatmik]

We can now talk the same language!!!

Good price! I can imagine your smile when you found it at such a good price.

MIK

[coogzilla]

Aye. But they got me for 8.00$ S&H fees. LOL

Keith

[Boatmik]

:0

Mik

[coogzilla]

Well, after two tries I'm the owner of a metric tape measure.LOL

Keith

[Daddles]

Well, after two tries I'm the owner of a metric tape measure.LOL

Keith

Well done. Have fun with the instruction manual. Just take note, every third number is out of order :wink: (that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it :rolleyes:)

Richard

[newspire]

I've been reading the plans all week and finally purchased the plywood and starting drawing out the sides and deck. I've already run into a small 3mm problem. First my 4x8 is 1 mm short of 8 feet. Second, according to the plans the grids should be 305mm apart. Using 305mm I run out of wood before I run out of grids. 305mm * 8 is 2440mm. However, according to Google 8ft is only 2438.4mm and mine is 1mm shorter still.

So, is Ausy ply 2440mm or what? Unless somebody has a better idea or knows what I did wrong I guess I'll have to shift my grid lines down a bit for the second hull side. Any thoughts?

Andy

[Vernr]

I would not even worry about it........1mm = (slightly over) 1/64th of an inch!!!!!..............that's barely the thickness of a pencil line!!!!!!!.....and 3mm.....thats about 1/8th of an inch.

If you can get the finished product completed inside those tolerances I will be mightly surprised!!!

[m2c1Iw]

305mm * 8 is 2440mm. However, according to Google 8ft is only 2438.4mm and mine is 1mm shorter still.

So, is Ausy ply 2440mm or what? Unless somebody has a better idea or knows what I did wrong I guess I'll have to shift my grid lines down a bit for the second hull side. Any thoughts?

Andy

Andy,
Check your plan I think it's 7x305 plus the last two grids at 152 and 141 equals 2428.

BTW a note on chine logs Mik shows them cut to 24mm back from ply it is actually 19mm or what ever thickness you use for the bow cleats. I think Mik mentioned somewhere a close fit is not necessay here anyway.

The other thing I have found is for the bottom try and leave as much length as possible when cutting the web pieces, I was about 10mm short. Not a big deal but then requires filling etc.

I'm sure Mik will be along to correct me if I've mislead you.

All the best and have fun.

Mike

[Boatmik]

Howdy.

The most common size for plywood around the world is 2440 x 1220.

That is what they sell it as.

Being 3mm out is not going to be a problem. If you notice all the dimensions for the side panels are from one end of the ply. The other end of the ply never comes into the marking out. The sides also finish before the other end.

The only piece that goes the full length of the plywood is the bottom and it is trimmed off after fitting. Do it neatly as you need the offcut - even if yours may end up being 1/8" (or 3mm shorter).

In other words the way the plan was set up was to allow for exactly the problem that you have run into.

If by some chance I have started any measurements for the sides from the other end - please mention it here and I will fix it.

Best wishes
Michael

[m2c1Iw]

Howdy.
The only piece that goes the full length of the plywood is the bottom and it is trimmed off after fitting. Do it neatly as you need the offcut - even if yours may end up being 1/8" (or 3mm shorter).




The other thing I have found is for the bottom try and leave as much length as possible when cutting the web pieces, I was about 10mm short.


Michael I have noticed previous reference to the bottom being a little too short after allowing for the #1 frame web as I have experienced and wonder if the web pieces could stand being reduced 10mm in width without affecting strength? I cut the pieces prior to fitting the bottom using the dimensions quoted in the frame layout pages. Suppose I should have followed designers intructions and fitted the bottom first.:-

Mike

[Daddles]

Suppose I should have followed designers intructions and fitted the bottom first.:-

Don't do that, the designers might start getting delusional and thinking they know what they're doing :oo:

Richard

[Boatmik]

Howdy Mike.

The offcut from the bottom is used to make the centreboard case front web (and a couple of other little bits if I remember right.

If the bottom is dry fitted, marked and cut with a little bit of excess all will be OK.

The web for the front of the centrecase doesn't really need to be any specific width. If it is 5, 10, or 20mm narrower it doesn't matter - there just needs to be something there.

So dry fit the bottom first - mark and cut for a perfect fit.

As Daddles says ... the plans have been worked out to provide a number of failsafes of this type. I don't promise they are perfect - but I am used to nutting out on the way to minimise the risks of these types of problems.

For example there is no way of guaranteeing that everyone's bottoms will end up the same length - that is why I don't give a length at all - instead a procedure for working out the correct length using a minimum number of steps. It also gets the builder used to the process and provides guide holes for the final run.

There is a huge amount of this sort of protection in the plan. Again it is impossible to cover all the bases but I think they go pretty close.

http://homepage.mac.com/peterhyndman/Sites/PDRinfo/PDRbuilding/Resources/painting005.jpeg

Unusually I have built or substantially built 5 of them now.

Best wishes
Michael

[newspire]

If you notice all the dimensions for the side panels are from one end of the ply. The other end of the ply never comes into the marking out. The sides also finish before the other end.

If by some chance I have started any measurements for the sides from the other end - please mention it here and I will fix it.



I suspect my problem is that I am trying to draw out both side panels. I drew out one side starting from the stern and going left to right across the plywood. To draw the other side panel, this time working from right to left, I can't use the same grid lines because the first line is 302mm from the right edge of the ply instead of 305.

As the plans clearly state, it is ok to measure out one side and then copy the other. I bet doing that will help the two sides to match up better anyway. It is probably better to have the sides the same no mater what the shape.

I'm really looking forward to working with the metric system. This is so much easier!

Thanks!
Andy

[Boatmik]

Yep - that is the best possible way. You can set it the copy using the measurements of the tips of the panel from the ends and middle of the ply.

As your sheet sounds like it is 1/8" shorter this means that the duplicate will be moved 1/8" to fit OK.

When you start using the duplicates remember that they have to be laid out symmetrically to work out where the framing goes.

http://homepage.mac.com/peterhyndman/Sites/PDRinfo/PDRbuilding/buildingpics/Assembly/Resources/pdr16.jpeg

As you can see here - all the bits are laid out symmetrically.

One interesting note is that the blue tape is where our plywood broke. I mean broke with hand pressure. The sides and decks were all of that ply which was cheap.

However the boats were quite strong enough showing that with this glued type construction that loads are very distributed. Probably the epoxy coating is helping prevent water getting into to voids too.

However for the bottom of the boat the original plywood was not quite strong enough - so we now recommend 6mm (1/4") for that panel only. The plans only give you the 6mm option for the bottom.

We are very happy with the performance of the thinner slightly crappy ply for everything else - but if you have a bit of extra money then better ply and epoxy is a great investment in the longevity of the boat.

Michael Storer

[coogzilla]

It looks good. If I was doing it, I would hide it.

[coogzilla]

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o24/coogzilla/Pirougue011.jpg

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o24/coogzilla/Pirougue012.jpg

Well here it be. What ya think? Is it good to go?

YouTube - Canoe Paddling - Canadian Style

Heres a vid for fun. Keith:U

[Boatmik]

Howdy Keith,

Cheers for the Vid.

It is a bit hard for Australians to realise what heights canoeing as an artform has achieved in a few short centuries in Nth America.

Thankyou hugely as the video is both entertaining and has some useful material as well.

Anyway ... to go back to what coogzilla is building ... it is one of these.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2242/2037934770_dd0fe47910.jpg

The simplest of box boats. The PDRacer.

If you look carefully you can see where I faked the photo. It was vertical and narrow and I had to make it square for publication. So the left and right sides are copied from elsewhere on the picture.

MIK

[newspire]

Where do people typically get 19mm x 19mm - 3/4 x 3/4 timber in the US? The box stores like Lowes & Home Depot do not have anything close. Or do is it best to just rip something else to the right size on a table saw (which I don't have)?

Thanks!
Andy

[jmk89]

Andy

I'm not in the USA, but the better timberyards here in Oz (not Bunnings - seems to be our equivalent of Home Depot) will rip a board if you want (usually no charge). Bunnies wil cross cut, but rarely rip. Ask the salesman nicely and you may be surprised!

If you buy a 30 or 15 cm (12" or 6") board of 19mm (3/4") you can usually rip it yourself if you are cureful using a portable circular saw. As far as I am concerned the major issue here is ensuring that the board is supported at enough points not to sag and then vibrate - you don't want to know what starts to happen then!!!

[Daddles]

You'd be amazed what you can do with the really cheap table saws mate. Then there's the Triton (which I think you lot get). While having a good table saw improves the job, there's not a lot you 'need' it for. Mind you, if you have one you'll find yourself doing all sorts of stuff you hadn't anticipated - like ripping down the plywood sheet to make my steam box recently, knocking 5mm off the edge of the boards I was trying to steam, making a small part about a foot long for a wheelchair adaption my dad was doing. I've got a Triton and started with a borrowed circular saw but recently bought a larger saw. Paying lumber yards to rip and plane the timber is very expensive and very restrictive, but it does mean you don't have to buy a saw. I did that until I realised it was cheaper to buy something to have here at home.

A mate was in the same position as me but could afford to buy a good quality table saw ... almost. The money was there but he wasn't sure if he'd use it. So he bought a really cheap table saw for less than $100, just to see how long it'd be before he'd get sick of it and buy the real thing. Well that was 5 years ago and he's still using it. The cheap fence was tossed early on and he made up something that's a beast to use but which is at least stable.

My experience with Redback was that I'd spent enough paying the lumber yard to pay for the Triton and had none of the flexibility. On that basis, with most boats, you can justify a saw just for that one job. Mind you, then you have to get a thicknesser which makes the economics really dodgy, but you'd be amazed what you can do with hand planes.

Richard

[Boatmik]

It is moving a bit away from tape measures, but with a portable circular you can make it a lot safer by putting it on a sacrificial layer of chipboard on the floor or a good table or a Midge style table frame. Fully supported. On the floor with sacrificial chipboard under is the easiest way to cut out ply panels if you really want to use a circular saw - adjust the depth of cut to go into the chipboard a few millimetres.

MIK

[Daddles]

It is moving a bit away from tape measures, but with a portable circular you can make it a lot safer by putting it on a sacrificial layer of chipboard on the floor or a good table or a Midge style table frame. Fully supported. On the floor with sacrificial chipboard under is the easiest way to cut out ply panels if you really want to use a circular saw - adjust the depth of cut to go into the chipboard a few millimetres.

MIK

:2tsup:
Yup, works a treat that does :wink:

Richard

[coogzilla]

Hey, you's guys jacked my thread.

If ya want to rip 3/4" stock, a tablesaw or a radial arm make it cakework.
The fence is the the thing on a tablesaw. It has to be set up true to the
blade and lock up solid. Then you have consistant results ripping stock.
Set the blade so the teeth just poke thru the stock and no more. Jam
the stock up against the fence. Let the blade cut, don't force it. Result's
depend on practice and user skill.

If your gonna try and rip with a skillsaw, get a decent plane. You'll need
it. Baily.
Coogs

[Daddles]

Set the blade so the teeth just poke thru the stock and no more.

What's the deal there? Safety or is there a wood related reason?

Richard

[b.o.a.t.]

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o24/coogzilla/Pirougue011.jpg

Well here it be. What ya think? Is it good to go?

YouTube - Canoe Paddling - Canadian Style (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4RJAeP7pDI)

Heres a vid for fun. Keith:U

re: the tape measure - I'm still grappling with the idea that there is anything unusual about a tape measure with both systems on it. I see the occasional one with metric only in hardware stores, but not at all common.
Different countries, different 'gotchas' I guess.

Re the canadian paddling video - I am in awe. Never thought to tip my boat like that when I had one. Tried to paddle a slalom C1 a few times years ago & failed dismally - went sideways really well but couldn't persuade it to go forwards or backwards!! That would be the nearest thing to what I see on this video. Quite extraordinary !! When (eventually) I build Eureka, this will be something fun to try. Maybe the Ubeaut SA Boat Squadron could work up a demo squad for Goolwa 2009... :oo:

cheers
AJ

[coogzilla]

Hey Richard. If you set the depth of cut that way, it gives you a really
nice smooth finish. Coogs

[PAR]

I didn't learn to paddle that way from a Canadian, but have done similar since boyhood. It sort of came natural in a solo canoe, at least the box, side and power strokes (non-J). Leaning the canoe I learned from an Indian (native American) who said this was how his grandfather taught him. He was less winded after a good pull to windward against a current, having less difficulty with the current. He happily showed why and how, but the rest (the strokes, just seemed natural to me any way). I in fact can't do a decent J stroke, tending to hold my pause too long or over steer. It possible I could learn, but found it way too much effort from the production gained. Maybe the Canadians learned from the Indians and having a more market oriented infrastructure, laid clam to it.

Nice to see it done on video. Having glass smooth water is helpful too.

[Boatmik]

And it is truly amazing the speed with which is can be accomplished - like the boat is going faster sideways than I can go forwards!

MIK