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View Full Version : Which dovetail jig is best for novice



newtonhouse
19th April 2008, 10:20 PM
For old fashioned joiners using mainly hand tools (but also routers thicknesser drills and table saw) but no training or experience of making dovetails. (dovetails in that part of the world are not used)

I want them to learn to make drawers incorporating dovetail joints (im sorry i cant teach them because it would be the blind leading the blind)and i was wondering which router jig would be the best to get for them so they could learn themselves.

It must be second hand and of a reasonable almost bargain price and wondering if anybody can comment or rate usefullness on the following jigs which are available on ebay

Black and decker
ElU
Trend
Leigh
Axminster

I realise that leigh is probably going to be the professionals choice but the price they are achieving second hand is out of range (for them in that part of the world) so is there really much differance between that and the trend types which are affordable and for which we will probably contribute

Ivan in Oz
20th April 2008, 04:25 AM
G'Day Newtonhouse.....

Something like one of these might be of Interest to you.

They are over there, but might be Hard........Difficult to get.

http://www.gifkins.com.au/index.html

http://www.gifkins.com.au/BoxesChestsFurniture.html


I have one and using them is Easy Peasy:2tsup:

mat
20th April 2008, 09:10 AM
The leigh is an outstanding jig. If you can go for the larger 24 inch model. The ability to place the pins and tails exactly where you want them including unevenly spaced is great. You can always get that half pin on the ends which you can't with many jigs including the gifkins.

IMHO the gifkins is great for small pieces but is not suitable for large draw sides, blanket boxes etc.

The new VRS (vacuum and router support) make the leigh even better not having to balance the router on half its base at times and chip collection is excellent.

Have a look at their website.

www.leighjigs.com

Rattrap
6th May 2008, 03:01 PM
I haven't made a dovetail joint since i was in highschool 20+ yrs ago & even then badly, until last week when i fired up the Woodrat for the first time. We have it at the local woodies shed & i was the first to use it & tho i hate to admit it i read & followed the manual. Finger joints were a piece of tho It took me 3 tries to get an exellent bank of dovetail joints & another 3 trys to get a pretty good 1/2 blind dovetail. The joints u can make with the woodrat! I can't wait to get back to it to try some more. If u can pick up a 2nd hand rat at the right price u won't regret it for a moment.
http://www.woodrat.com/woodrat.html
:2tsup::2tsup::2tsup:

Wongo
6th May 2008, 03:48 PM
I don't use a dovetail jig myself. Whatever you do you should stay away from the one in the picture. They come in different brands with different colours. They are usually $89 or $99.

I am sure the owers here can tell you why.

http://www.macma.co.nz/dovetail-jig.jpg

echnidna
6th May 2008, 03:51 PM
If you are teaching tradesmen joiners, forget a router jig and get a dovetail cutting machine instead.

seafurymike
6th May 2008, 06:57 PM
I just purchased the D1600 and the instructions are clear and easy to use. They also supply a DVD.
I would recommend the Leigh also.

/M

martink
7th May 2008, 12:20 AM
I have the gifkins and leigh jigs (D4R) and both are fantastic. I also have the incra jig that does dovetails (though I mainly bought/use it as a fantastic router fence system) as it's a pain in the butt to use.

It comes down to this, if you are doing small work then the gifkins is the go but you need a router table for it. If you want larger work (or variable spacing of tails) then go the leigh and the leigh doesn't need a router table.

Both are easy to use and I wouldn't trade one for the other - each have pride of place in my shed!

Oh, and heed wongo's advice, stay away from the crappy 99 buck dovetail jigs - it will only wind up in tears and a heavy trash can!

Ciao,

M.

Dean
7th May 2008, 12:22 AM
The Leigh jigs look the most complex, but are actually the easiest to use once you get them set up correctly.
Have a look at my review of the D1600 for more information:
http://www.onlinetoolreviews.com/reviews/leighd1600.htm

rayintheuk
7th May 2008, 01:48 AM
It must be second hand and of a reasonable almost bargain price and wondering if anybody can comment or rate usefullness on the following jigs which are available on ebay ...........
............. I realise that Leigh is probably going to be the professionals choice but the price they are achieving second hand is out of range (for them in that part of the world) so is there really much difference between that and the trend types which are affordable and for which we will probably contribute
I think some responders might have missed the phrase "second hand and of a reasonable almost bargain price," which puts real limitations on your options. You'll only get a fixed-size template and probably not a very wide one. That will swiftly lead to frustration and mistakes.

Are you sure it's not possible to teach hand-cutting? You could start with finger (box) joints (on the table-saw with a very simple jig, or by hand) and it's a small step from there to a through dovetail.

Ray.

ian
8th May 2008, 12:26 AM
For old fashioned joiners using mainly hand tools (but also routers thicknesser drills and table saw) but no training or experience of making dovetails. (dovetails in that part of the world are not used)

I want them to learn to make drawers incorporating dovetail joints (im sorry i cant teach them because it would be the blind leading the blind)and i was wondering which router jig would be the best to get for them so they could learn themselves.

It must be second hand and of a reasonable almost bargain price and wondering if anybody can comment or rate usefullness on the following jigs which are available on ebay


Like Ray I'm going to ask why?

what are you trying to achieve here?

presumably these "old fashioned" joiners sell their wares
if they sell in a market that doesn't know about (or appreciate) dovetail construction WHAT'S THE POINT of teaching them to incorporate dovetails in their work?

a dovetail jig will produce a very obvious machine made joint devaluing any hand work incorporated into the product.

can you give some contex to
where these workers are
what they make
who they sell to
why you want to indroduce dovetails


ian

kmthor
10th May 2008, 08:44 PM
rattrap.. how's the rat going can you give us a bit of a review? i like the look of these just wondering if they are worth the money?

km

Rattrap
10th May 2008, 09:40 PM
Km i just love using the wootrat, its driving me up the wall that the community shed is only open 3 days a week.
First off, the manual is driving me up the wall. The DVD on the other hand is exellent but then that might just be me.
It really is as easy to use as in the videos u can find on utube (the same vids as on the DVD)
Its accuracy is so far exellent on all the joints i've made so far & all without the need of any measurements.
The base board that the router works on & is mounted to has a little more flex in it than i'd like, its made from that compressed plastic like stuff - got a strange name that escapes me at the mo.
The cam clamps that hold your project in place under the router arn't really the best but as long as u keep an eye on them you're fine.
The rat i think is better with smaller size pieces of timer, probably up to a blanket box size project. (even that might be a stretch)

Are they worth the money? Thats an interesting question. theres a new machine coming out in august in the US called the Router boss that seems to work similar to the woodrat but addressing some of the issues people had with the rat. (IMO from reading threads here & on other woody sites.......)
We'll have to wait an see how it stacks up in the real world.
1 of these machines IMO would defenately be worth the money, its just wait & see which is the better machine.
The thing I realised as soon as i saw the DVD is the number of times we could be using the rat in projects we make in the shed. At the moment its in a dim unused corner of the shed, i wouldn't be at all suprised to see it moved to a handier location once the guys see what we can do.
I have to say tho that i am no woodie expert in fact i'm at the oppersate end of the scales, just starting out.
http://www.thecraftsmangallery.com/routerboss/index.html

damian
4th June 2008, 11:43 AM
I have the gifkins and leigh jigs (D4R) and both are fantastic. I also have the incra jig that does dovetails (though I mainly bought/use it as a fantastic router fence system) as it's a pain in the butt to use.

Ciao,

M.

Why ? What is hard about joints on the incra ? Curious as I've just ordered one.

I'm late to this thread but it's fascinating. I've been looking at these things for about 12 months now and there is all sorts of stuff I don't get. I know what follows may start a religeous war, so please don't get aggro on me.

What exactly is it about the leigh that's so great ? I've never got this. Ok you can do custom spacings and stuff, but it's always looked to my eye hard to use. You have to set up then balance your router, buy special guides and bits.

Likewise the gifkins seems limited. Table only etc...

I would have thought the woodrat or incra was better than either. The woodrat for it's part doesn't lend itself to some timber sizes and it only does joinery, the incra seems to be a passable and brain dead joinery system with the versatility of a good fence thrown in.

Very interested in your toughts as I''ve decided to move away from Triton.

munruben
4th June 2008, 12:29 PM
Why ? What is hard about joints on the incra ? Curious as I've just ordered one.

I'm late to this thread but it's fascinating. I've been looking at these things for about 12 months now and there is all sorts of stuff I don't get. I know what follows may start a religeous war, so please don't get aggro on me.

What exactly is it about the leigh that's so great ? I've never got this. Ok you can do custom spacings and stuff, but it's always looked to my eye hard to use. You have to set up then balance your router, buy special guides and bits.

Likewise the gifkins seems limited. Table only etc...

I would have thought the woodrat or incra was better than either. The woodrat for it's part doesn't lend itself to some timber sizes and it only does joinery, the incra seems to be a passable and brain dead joinery system with the versatility of a good fence thrown in.

Very interested in your toughts as I''ve decided to move away from Triton.Hi Damian,

I bought the Gifkins jig last year and found it so easy to use. Straight out of the box I got pretty much perfect dovetail joints. The Leigh have some interesting and excellent videos demonstrating the use of their jigs on their website. Looks relatively easy but have never tried myself. Don't think I would like the idea of handling the big Triton router though with this jig.

Guess it depends what you want to do. Yes, the Gifkins is limited in as much as it can only do through dovetails as you probably already know but this is its aim in life to make dovetail joints so in that event it is successful. Not cheap if you want the full kit but easy to use.

Had no experience with the Incra jig so can't really comment on it but I have heard that it is really great because of its versatility and not just limited to dovetailing and box joints etc.

Guess it all comes down to what you want and what you want to do. For someone who just wants a dovetail jig I think the Gifkins would be the easiest to use without much difficulty.

While on the subject, I think Leigh has an excellent idea by showing demos of their jig in operation on their website and you can download the videos and watch them over and over. I think some of the other manufacturers of these kind of jigs would do well to follow suit with this idea and demonstrate their product on their website. I think it would improve their sales. Unfortunately Gifkins dosn't show demo's on his website. You can, however purchase the video from Gifkins to see the jig in action but very costly just to see the jig working when you can see the Leigh in action for nothing.
There is a video of the Gifkins jig being used here on the WWF video or can be downloaded from the video forum and this will give a good idea as to how easy it is to use.

I think you have made a good choice Damian and I am sure it will satisfy your particular needs. Was nice to meet you at the show.

damian
4th June 2008, 01:49 PM
Same here! :) Hopefully we'll meet up again sometime.

I suppose I should clarify incase I didn't make it plain before. I'm not attacking any system, just trying to better understand why one would choose one or the other.

Woodrat have one enormous video on their website. It's over 1/2 hour and takes forever to download, but it gives an absolutely complete lesson on the machine, tennons, fingers, dovetails etc. It annoyed me though because some of what he says isn't correct.

Incra have a series of short videos showing their stuff in action.

I see the problem this way. To make any joint you have to control the job and the tool in 3 axis and introduce the two in a repeatable and steppable fashion. You have to be able to make fine adjustments to sort clearances out and you have to get the system up and runing quickly. Then there is flexability.

Jigs with set fingers limit flexability, you need a new set of fingers for every job (sounds like a safety talk :) ).

The leigh like all free routing jigs doesn't secure the router. That bothers me a bit, but the apparent need for special bits is more of a concern. I don't know about their setup but hopefully they have a quick system for getting your fingers where you want them.

Obviously the leigh and gifkins are specialised, and that has advantages as they can be optimised for the work.

Woodrat does more things and it has the tremendous advantage of compactness. It also holds long work well, so tennons on legs and so forth are accomodated well.

The big issue I see with the incra is indexing is more work than the others, but if you were knocking out 1/2 dozen drawers the same size or pattern it should actually be very quick. It's other big advantage is versatility of course. Your buying a fence that does joints rather than a jointing system. There is also capacity. You can get indexers up to 50 inches or something, which makes a pretty deep drawer :)

I suppose I should look more closely at the leigh to better understand why so many people like it.

gdep685
15th August 2008, 02:26 AM
Hi: Maybe this should be a new thread but I think it is appropriate here too. I'm contemplating the purchase of my first jig. After reading revies and comments on the internet regarding the various dovetail jigs available on the market I am gravitating toward the Stots Dovetail Master. It is $41.00 without the router bits and by all accounts is capable of as much as most of the expensive units.
Has anyone here had any experience with this template or have any comments. Thanks, George

damienhazo
18th August 2008, 01:21 AM
Got the Trend CDJ600 (I think that's what it's called). Too lazy to go down to the workshop and check. Easy to use, easy to set up and works like a dream. Didn't cost the world either...

I hear people saying machine-made dovetails devalue pieces but I don't agree. I for one did not have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the present. Am I allowed to use glue or do I have to boil up a deer I've shot with a bow and arrow? How about screws? Handmade nails only?

Dovetails are attractive, strong joints that can be achieved quickly and easily with machine/jig usage. I don't see anyone hand sanding or chiseling out dados...

Toymaker Len
18th August 2008, 11:15 PM
Its got to be the Gifkins dovetail jig for its almost zen simplicity and incredible accuracy. As for getting one second hand... well, woodworkers just don't sell on a gifkins jig. Whatever you get, the jigs that work with a router in the table and the work piece held in a frame are much more accurate than jigs which rely on an upright hand-held router.(as Wongos' post above) Even tiny vertical wobbles of the router are amplified into large errors in the finished dovetail.

damienhazo
18th August 2008, 11:44 PM
Whatever you get, the jigs that work with a router in the table and the work piece held in a frame are much more accurate than jigs which rely on an upright hand-held router.(as Wongos' post above) Even tiny vertical wobbles of the router are amplified into large errors in the finished dovetail.

While I won't argue that mistakes made while holding a router will undoubtedly lead to inaccuracies, I can't endorse Len's comment that jigs designed for table mounted machines are more accurate.

I think the systems that rout both pieces in one go are inherintly accurate if the pieces have been correctly inserted and most importantly, the bit depth has been correctly set.

gdep685
19th August 2008, 06:36 AM
Well, I have not yet decided on a jig and just to make things more difficult, I came across a like new Festool jig with two templates for sale this weekend for $250.00 U.S. I'm fighting the urge to by the unit even though it is a good price and the reviews I've read are good. (Talk about going from inexpensive to expensive. Sometimes I wonder about myself and think I need to be restrained.)
Among my concerns is that I will have to retrofit my router to accept the special router plate needed to work the Jig. Otherwise I would have to spring for an additional 350 for a router.
Any pros/cons on using this jig and is a Festool router a must to properly work the unit? Thanks, George

microsuffer
23rd August 2008, 11:33 AM
There are jigs that support hand sawn dovetails and seem to be effective. I don't have the patience and prefer more regular cuts, letting the dovetail itself be the attractive feature and could care less if the join looks machined.

Leigh jigs, as a class tend to be limited in stock thickness, making the use of backer boards for stock that tends to tear out (e.g. plywood) somewhat limited. They are rather dedicated for box and dovetail joints. (Though I do love the look of the "bear's ears" joint and may breakdown some day and buy a Leigh just to do those.)

Incra (I have a Twin Linear) is superb with difficult stock, but you must pay attention to the setup and operation details. It delivers repeatable cuts and is quite accurate. Downside is that it has limits on the width of stock you can handle - no 24 inch boards for me. And cutting dovetails into boards that are long is a scarey proposition. On the other hand, I have done drawers with dovetails in cheap plywood without tearout and even done wood hinges.

Woodrat will deal with long and wide boards. Dovetails, boxjoints, mortice and tenon. No sweat. At least that is what its fans say. Very pricey if you cannot find it used. Router Boss looks like a close copy and I lump that into the same class.

None of these are exactly cheap and the real cheap knock offs of the Leigh class are likely problematic. There are reviews out there that could help you decide if you really want or have to go that way.

fletty
25th August 2008, 02:47 PM
Hi guys,
I can only respond in terms of "one man's journey" and advise you of what works for me for dovetail jigs.
I bought a B&D jig in the early 70's and used it until the rest of my life took over from woodwork. When I started again in the 90's I bought a succession of unbranded Chinese and Taiwanese jigs and ended up progressing to a Carbatec Eurojig. My passion (obsession?) is box making so I gravitated to a Gifkin for boxes and, more recently, a Leigh 24" for chests.
This gives ME the mix that I need but I do like the description of the Gifkin being a zen like experience. I have a router plate with 2 Trend routers just for the Gifkin and that makes fine box making a joy.
Fletty

Cruiserman92
27th December 2008, 07:46 PM
Leigh all the way for me. It is easy to set up but still ideal for production type runs. The ability to variably space the joints as well as ensure that half pins are on the ends perfectly every time is what really sets it apart. It is built to last, balancing the router on it is not a problem Makita 3612c unless you are unfortunately uncoordinated or particularly weak or infirm. The term dovetail jig is synonymous with Leigh. BTW if you simply want a single box it is often just as easy to cut by hand if you want two set up the leigh. Also the ability to cut joints on dramatically different thickness material I have used 32mm and 6mm on the same joint - the list is endless. I would never sell my Leigh.

newtonhouse
19th January 2009, 01:20 PM
Like Ray I'm going to ask why?

what are you trying to achieve here?

presumably these "old fashioned" joiners sell their wares
if they sell in a market that doesn't know about (or appreciate) dovetail construction WHAT'S THE POINT of teaching them to incorporate dovetails in their work?

a dovetail jig will produce a very obvious machine made joint devaluing any hand work incorporated into the product.

can you give some contex to
where these workers are
what they make
who they sell to
why you want to indroduce dovetails


ian

Hi thanks for all the replies to put it into context they are woodworkers manufacturing doors windows and kitchen unit in situ in new buildings, they are mainly migrant workers fromt the central asian states tajikistan etc

They have access to most of the native woods and the expertise that has been passed down from practise and generations, However It does not include dovetial joints, dowel joints gunstock joints etc

i will include some pictures of work they have achieved if you like, Some of it is quite impressive

If i can teach them something that is going to expand their capability to continue working then i will do, i thought the use of a dovetail jig may have been the easiest and quickest way of describing what is required and then they can take it form there

There are a couple of dovetail jigs from leigh on ebay that i will bid for in the next week ready to take away with me next month

some of the work done so far enclosed

I have some more pictures and will submit them later

Thank you very much for your informed comments and replies, i am sorry it has taken so long to reply but my health has not been too good for some time but now on the mend

Malcolm Eaton
24th July 2009, 11:30 PM
Some years ago I came in possession of a B& D dovetail jig which has been lying around in a dark corner of my garage. The jig has no instruction on how to set up and use the gear. Has any one by any chance a copy of the instruction sheets on how to set up and use this particular jig? If so is there any chance of getting a copy posted on the forum.
regards
Mac

maxmac
7th August 2009, 10:40 AM
Hi all,

What is a good price for a leigh d4r or 24" dovetail jig 2nd hand

mm

fletty
7th August 2009, 07:13 PM
Some years ago I came in possession of a B& D dovetail jig which has been lying around in a dark corner of my garage. The jig has no instruction on how to set up and use the gear. Has any one by any chance a copy of the instruction sheets on how to set up and use this particular jig? If so is there any chance of getting a copy posted on the forum.
regards
Mac

Hi Mac, I posted a copy of the B+D instructions a while ago so will see if I can find them and post again.
Fletty

fletty
7th August 2009, 07:24 PM
Hi Mac, I posted a copy of the B+D instructions a while ago so will see if I can find them and post again.
Fletty

found it .......

http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=69934&highlight=fletty+silverfish

blackemmons
11th August 2009, 11:32 AM
I realize this is an old thread but here is my experience. See number 13 in thread below.

"http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=98823&highlight=dovetail"

Still lovin' it.

Jim

Editor's Note: Cross forum link removed