Where do I stand?

[clubbyr8]

In July last year I decided to upgrade my AV Receiver from my Denon AVC- A1D with the major requirement that the receiver had to be software upgradeable (audio formats). I did a bit of research and came up with the Marantz SR-7001 (as I wanted everything to switch via HDMI). I talked to the dealer (Domayne) who contacted the distributor to confirm that the receiver was software upgradeable. This confirmation was given by the dealer and confirmed by the distributor. So a special order was placed.
Much to my angst, Marantz introduced an upgraded receiver late last year SR-7002). This receiver decodes the new audio formats Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD Master Audio. That's OK I thought, an upgrade should be imminent. Well I waited and waited but there was no upgrade in sight, so I checked the manual to make sure that Marantz specified the receiver was upgradeable for new audio formats (via RS232 port) and then contacted the distributor.
To cut a long story short, the distributor said that even though the manual says the receiver is software upgradeable, it isn't. They refuse to accept any responsibility for the advice given before purchase and refuse to help me now.
I went back to the dealer I bought the receiver off, who confirmed my side of the argument, who then had discussions with the distributor, but the bottom line is I've bought a receiver that is not software upgradeable and I have a dealer and a distributor who can't or won't help me even though this was a requirement of purchase.

So what can I do now? Is there a government department I can take this complaint too? Any help would be appreciated.

[Master Splinter]

In NSW contact the Department of Fair Trading. (http://www.dft.nsw.gov.au/default.html)

However a promise that something is software upgradeable doesn't necessarily imply that the company will ever issue a software upgrade. (which is why you never buy closed source products with any expectations at all!)

It may be that Dolby Tru HD and DTS HD require new decoder chipsets as a license is required to use the new formats - so unless you were specific in your requirements ("I want a receiver that can be upgraded to Dolby Tru HD next year when the format is finalised") you may not have all that strong a point. (Yes, the receiver is software upgradeable; however the company has not issued any upgrades.)

Other things you could do:

1) Search the web to see if there is a modding/enthusiast community for the receiver. Their may be a home brew solution. (Like how one enthusiast got features working on the Creative soundcards that Creative did not support in its official Vista drivers... Creative's preferred solution was for people to buy new cards)

2) Sell it and upgrade. Probably cheaper and quicker than legal action.

3) Ignore it. I haven't seen any real advance in sound technology since stereo became 5.1 - it's all been mostly marketing spin to sell new product, very little in the way of real developments. I very much doubt that you could tell the difference between Dolby Digital and Tru HD in a blind comparison.

[Check twice!]

clubbyr8
Not living in your country but understand a salesman that "speak with forked tongue" to get the sale. We have a better business bureu (50% good) without specific hand written guarentee I do not know where you could take this. I chose to call what you got as a "curb and gotter" warrenty, once to the curb you gotter! :)

As Master Splinter mentioned, there are groups on the net that design cracks and scripts for products that were not ment to be upgraded or, or , etc. I have heard of cracks for anything from game systems to phones to ? ? what ever.

Look around, something is there, check the different music or computer forums, that got you here to wood working. :)

Good luck on your search!
John

[SilentButDeadly]

No AV receiver will ever receive a new AV decoding format as part of a software upgrade. This is because all decoding formats in your receiver are supplied to you under licence. To get any more you have to buy another licence.....which is typically included with a new AV receiver

The only thing that would happen if an upgrade were ever offered is an upgrade of the firmware to sort out various bugs in the receiver's operating system.

I'd go with Splinter's suggestion and see what hacks are out there for your receiver

Go to http://www.avsforum.com and do a search on the SR7001 and see what you can find.

[clubbyr8]

No AV receiver will ever receive a new AV decoding format as part of a software upgrade. This is because all decoding formats in your receiver are supplied to you under licence. To get any more you have to buy another licence.....which is typically included with a new AV receiver

The only thing that would happen if an upgrade were ever offered is an upgrade of the firmware to sort out various bugs in the receiver's operating system.

I'd go with Splinter's suggestion and see what hacks are out there for your receiver

Go to http://www.avsforum.com and do a search on the SR7001 and see what you can find.


Silent, Check Twice and MS,

Thanks for the responses.

This may or may not be true (I don't know) as Sony PS3 has just allowed Dolby TrueHD and DTS HDMA as part of their latest firmware upgrade. No license fees to pay.
My contention is that is not what the Marantz manual says. It says:
"The RS-232C port may also be used in the future to update the operating software of the SR7001 so that it will be able to support new digital audio formats and the like as they are introduced."

In the mean time I have written to Marantz in America to gauge their response.

Regards

[malb]

My contention is that is not what the Marantz manual says. It says:
"The RS-232C port may also be used in the future to update the operating software of the SR7001 so that it will be able to support new digital audio formats and the like as they are introduced."


I understand your contention with this, but I suspect that the words "as they are introduced" may be forked tongued.

It could mean that the updates would be available as new formats are introduced, but it equally could mean when the updates are introduced. With no updates developed, can you prove that the unit is not software updatable?

[clubbyr8]

Apparently after reading some stuff on the AVS forum (thanks Silent) that Marantz in the states do do firmware upgrades via their support centres (not by the user) although I can't find any info on Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD MA (for my receiver). When I had discussions with the Australian distributor there was no mention of any firmware upgrade service available in Australia (except for "bug fixes").

Anyway I've just played around with the PS3 as it decodes Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD-MA and sends it to the receiver as LPCM. I set the audio output of the Blu-Ray disk Die Hard 4.0 to DTS HD-MA 5.1 and let it rip. The difference in sound quality is amazing, much better than normal DD or DTS. I'm going to try and find a disk thats encoded with DTS HD-MA 7.1 to see what that sounds like (yes I have a 7.1 setup).

So I guess I don't really need the receiver to decode these formats as the PS3 does it so well.

Thanks for all responses.

[soundman]

interesting.
I have seen so many pieces of equipment that have some sort of coms port on them with some sort of possible software associated with them.

A large proportion of the time the port is installed because the chipset supports it. The software may or may not ever exist. the port may not even function with the chipset fitted.

The designer may have intentions, but that is as far as it gets much of the time. The designer may have made concerted effort in design.... but after that it is out of his hands & in the hands of the marketing department.

& this is equipment large & small.

I have a generic digital vernier caliper... it has a serial port... what do you think my chances are of getting software for it, or the appropriate connection cable for that matter?

Yep a lot of this sort of stuff is a crock.

Both the distributer and the retailer have probably taken the information in supplied documentation on good faith & just sprouted what they have read.

cheers

[clubbyr8]

soundman,

Thanks for the response. Just a couple of points.

The RS232C port has a duel function.

[1] It is used to provide firmware updates that become available. Looking through certain AV forums this service is used in the states regularly the only catch is that it is not a user function, the receiver has to sent to a Marantz Service Centre to get the firmware upgraded. I'm not sure if that applies here with the local distributor, there was no mention of this service in our exchange of emails.

[2] It is also used in conjunction with an external controller to control the function of the amp. The control codes are available on the Marantz website.

From my recent reading, Dolby True HD and DTS HD MA is a "by product" of HDMI v1.3. My receiver only supports HDMI v1.2 and therefore a hardware upgrade would be necessary, which if available, the cost would be prohibitive. So it ain't going to happen. Luckily the PS3 was designed with some sort of "future proofing" and both the audio formats are available through it.

As I said, if I had known there was a new model about to be released, I would have waited. The new model (SR7002) supports HDMI v1.3 and decodes the new audio formats. It also retails for the same price as my model. :(:(

With the RS232C thing, I have a multi meter that has a RS232C port. They supplied software and a serial cable with it and is used to store date read by the meter. So some things work as intended.

Thanks again.

[soundman]

Yep then there are a couple of firm rules.

If there is a new model due out, they wont tell you about it or the new features, they want to get rid of the current stock.

there will always be a new model out with new features.

the new model will always be the same price as the old one with new features.

the new model will always lack at least on feature that the old one had....... that will be the feature you designed something arround.

If you get you head twisted about this sort of stuff, you will spend your life permanently pi$$&@ off.:~

Thats life........now why was it I don't like doing domestic work:roll:

cheers

[clubbyr8]

Update!!!

After further negotiations with the dealer they tried to get the distributor to come to the party over this episode. The distributor blankly refused to help and in fact after inferring that the salesman and myself "lied", they have refused to answer emails or phone calls from the dealer.

The dealer has agreed to take the receiver back at their cost and provide me with another of similar value from a different manufacturer. This will take place on Saturday 28/6/08. The new receiver I have chosen is the Pioneer VSX-LX70.

I am extremely happy that the dealer has stood by me in this unfortunate incident and obviously I will continue shopping there.

As far as Marantz USA (I tried to get support from them) and the local distributor is concerned, their customer service is nothing but appalling. Even though the SR7001 is a reasonable bit of kit, the support is non existent. I will never ever buy another Marantz component and I will never buy anything the local distributor sells. In the grand scheme of things, it probably won't affect the distributor at all but I feel better about it.

[damian]

You probably had a case against the distributor. I don't know anything about these new fangled things, but if you can prove that you via the dealer asked if the device has option A, they assured you it does and you bought on that basis you have a strong case. Given the dealer is witness to this I think the distributor would be toast in small claims.

So is Marantz a USA based company ? I've found if the local distributors of japanese brands play up like this an email to head office gets them jumping really quick.

2c.

Glad it's worked out for you.

[soundman]

:D:D:D Oh yeh
Lesson #1, never believe an item has a feature or that feature works unless you see it demonstrated.
Lesson #2, never count on an upgrade becomming available or working as you would expect.
Lesson#3, expect more of this sort of shenanigans.

You were very fortunate that the retailer came to the party & i am not at all surprised by the response of the distributer .

I don't think you would get any truck out of the manufacturer either.

The manufacturer is japanese and always was to my knoweledge.

If you are going to chuck out Marantz you may as well chuck out Denon too they are owned by the same company and distributed localy by the same distributer.

I don't think the manufacturer or distributer are any better or worse than another, but this stuff is how it goes these days.

sad but true.
I could be worse, it could be software.

cheers

[clubbyr8]

Marantz was started by Saul B. Marantz in New York in the 1950's (I think). They didn't become wholly Japanese owned until 2001 and then they merged with Denon in 2002. I should have researched this earlier and then I wouldn't have wasted my time pursuing Marantz USA :doh::doh:.

Denon are distributed by Audio Products Group in Sydney.

Marantz are distributed by Qualifi in Victoria (I thought they did Denon too).

I think the PS3 is testament to a manufacturer that really supports its products and has provided regular firmware updates. Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD Master Audio are an example (although it's a PCM not a bitstream output).

Thanks for all your replies.

[soundman]

audio producst distribute marantz pro, I was not aware they didnt do the domestic product.

cheers