WIP: deep hollowing

[rsser]

As requested by Cliff.

It's cypress, about 24cm square and 50cm long. Aim (now) is to turn a tapered vase with a shoulder at the top.

Pic 1: mounted with a cup centre at the tailstock to distribute the load, and 2 spur 1" drive at the business end. (Some turners mount big lumps with a 2" spur threaded for the spindle to avoid trashing their spindle MT if the spur taper starts to move. Vermec make a nice one. Not needed here though).

Pic 2: trued at about 500 rpm. Plan was to turn a spigot at the headstock end and mount that sacrificial end in Titan Powergrips, but in the pic you can see a branch with bark which poses a challenge. It runs right through the centre, and 90 degrees around there's another smaller one that does the same.

So what are the options?

1. Lop that end off and end up with something very much smaller
2. Continue and call it a rustic piece.
3. Reverse the piece and see how it might go at the foot.

Thoughts:
1. It's a practice piece for deep hollowing, so no to 1
2. Prob option 2 is best, though the knots will make for bumpy hollowing and strength will be compromised. Can wrap some duct tape round it though.
3. Option 3 would increase the ratio of unsound to sound wood at the bottom where the narrowing taper will have to carry a deal of force and it's likely that one or both branches will fly out.

What does the brain trust think?

I'm gonna get an ale and set fer a while ;-}

[weisyboy]

ignore it and itl go away:D

just keep going on your original plan it sould be ok.

[Jim Carroll]

The rough peice may well fall out and give you an idea on wall thickness.

Artistic licence.

[rsser]

Hi Jim,

Yeah, I expect option 2 will leave 3 holes. Licentious it may be but artistic? ... in the eye of the beholder ;-}

[Zarguld]

Yeah leave the holes it is a nice piece of wood.

[TTIT]

A good dose of CA will keep the branch in place while you turning it (usually!). I try and get the glue into 'em before they loosen up.

Watching ... watching .........

[dai sensei]

A good dose of CA will keep the branch in place while you turning it (usually!). I try and get the glue into 'em before they loosen up.

Watching ... watching .........

+1

Also use the duct tape whilst hollowing.

[rsser]

Thanks DS and Vern.

Should've mentioned it ... unfortunately there's a deal of coarse bark around most of the branches and some voids as well. Would take a lot of filling. And filling, and yet more ...

[hughie]

Ern,

Interesting, looking forward to the WIP. By the look of it, its about to throw up some challenges.

[rodent]

Ern try this I'm brain dribbling so my selling will be cra-- now lets put that compression spigot on and re chuck . then re-true ,to shape do your thing as to shape and desighn , with the live center in place . RE tighten chuck remove center , tape out side voids up then bore down to and including the void remove from lathe with chuck attached . time to get messy. plastic on the bench remove tape and blow out with compressed air .new tape on vase . Now get some thin epoxy or rustins clear finish tint if required .pour into hole . now if your really worried about penetration , you could turn a plug drill a hole to take a tire valve screw and glue in place after you have put epoxy into vase put in plug tape down well then put 20lbs or less of pressure into it ( thats why all the covering on the bench ern ) Balistic glass looks good about now hey ern .:oo:

[rsser]

That's solid food for thought. Thanks Rodney.

Will chew it over.

[lubbing5cherubs]

Ern what on earth do you use to hollow out a hunk of wood like that?
Toni

[Gene45]

Thanks DS and Vern.

Should've mentioned it ... unfortunately there's a deal of coarse bark around most of the branches and some voids as well. Would take a lot of filling. And filling, and yet more ...


I have used epoxy for big fill jobs. Sometimes with color added. For example a dark brown (burnt umber) added to epoxy to fill light wood is no longer a flaw, its a feature......

[rsser]

Toni, the Proforme and Munro hollowers mounted in a rig.

Rodney and Gene: is epoxy only a post-turning option or can you turn it? Assuming the latter from Rodney's post (which also suggests the option of spinning the wet epoxy in the form while on the lathe; like a pipe roto-mould).

[DJ’s Timber]

is epoxy only a post-turning option or can you turn it?

Yes you can turn it Ern :2tsup:

[Cliff Rogers]

Arrrrhhhh.... a ring side seat at something I have yet to try, deep hollowing. :D

Good on ya for sharing Ern, all you have to do is live through it. :p

My 2 bob.

I like the grain around the branch so I'd try whatever it took to hold it in place, CA, duct tape, jubilee clamps, etc.

If it was me & I found that I had to use epoxy, I'd first work out how to make it black or dark brown to match the bark around the branch & then I'd glue the branch in place & finish turning once it had set properly.

Somebody must have already worked out how to colour epoxy a dark colour by now... I have fiddled with it a bit & found that the pigment I used interfered with the chemical comp of the epoxy & it turned to fudge.

[rsser]

Thanks DJ, and Cliff for the encouragement.

Hughie's mentioned ground coffee to colour epoxy; will give it a try. Should smell better than the Cypress which is irritating the schnoz. Can also try the ubeaut water-based dyes perhaps.

But there are ants emerging from the void so maybe clear would be trick ;-}

I suspect that when I turn the shoulder there'll be more surprises and the shoulder may not survive.

There's a slight possibility of removing the branch whole during hollowing and then resetting it at an offset inwards for a trick effect; will have to see.

Anyway, sposed to be working this week - have a deadline so the fun will have to wait.

[Calm]

Arrrrhhhh.... a ring side seat at something I have yet to try, deep hollowing. :D

Good on ya for sharing Ern, all you have to do is live through it. :p

Come on Ern, follow DJs example/standard and get the video running, you can edit out the unexciting bits before you show us. That way we get to experience the commentary/flying bits as well.:D:D

Make it not only educational but entertaining!!!!!:D

There is more cypress here if others want to have a go.:2tsup:

[ptc]

so i can follow your progress Ern.

[tea lady]

Ant nest embedded in the epoxy? Could be good. But a bit hard to repeat.:D

Colour the epoxy blue or red is my thought. :2tsup: That's if the ants vacate.:rolleyes:

[rsser]

OK, back's giving me curry at the puter so went out to play.

Roughed out the external lines. Body with forged spindle gouge (nice tool) and shoulder shaped with 3/8" milled spindle gouge. Tenon by peeling cuts with 3/8" beading tool.

The foot's still wide to leave meat for refining (actually a lot of refining). Top end cap is just there to support it all. In the pics it looks uglier than it is (really) since the digicam was on wideangle.

Downsides:

There's a stripe of interlocked grain which the new forged gouge is chipping out. If it were a bowl I'd be going uphill (tho it prob wouldn't help). ? Lighter cuts? Otherwise the tool is a gem: smooth cuts and good to control.

The top branch has voids up to 3/8". May need a bucketload of epoxy.

Down the track:

There's a sh*tload of weight there and I'm not sure that even the Powergrips will cope. And it's too fat to fit my spindle steady (a bigger one is on the gunna list). I may have to leave the bottom wide, hollow and then return to the bottom. Kinda defeats the purpose of a laser rig tho (yeah, I hear you !).

I can't tighten up the shoulder any further cos it will go into the void.

As for docudrama territory, sorry folks ... bought a digvideo camera for the kid but she wisely says it's too dusty in there. Any case, her ole man's a dag ... why would you want to shoot this boring stuff? (And there's going to be a lot of it).

[RETIRED]

There's a stripe of interlocked grain which the new forged gouge is chipping out. If it were a bowl I'd be going uphill (tho it prob wouldn't help). ? Lighter cuts? Otherwise the tool is a gem: smooth cuts and good to control. Sharpen tool. Very light cuts using the "sweet spot" just below the apex of the curve with the blade at about 30 degrees to the tool rest and the flute facing to about 10 o'clock should clean it up.

running "down hill" of course. Sometimes you can go "uphill" but needs practice.

If all else fails: use a sharp scraper but I have never had to on cypress.

[artme]

Looking good from where I sit!:2tsup::2tsup::2tsup:

[rsser]

Ta (and Artme).

Like the forged spindle gouge v. much. And it's affordable from Craftsupplies in the US oivay. Will grind some more off of the dead first 1/8" tonight.

And for those of us who need a demo of why we cut supported fibres, take a look again at the two branchwood ends in the first post.

Will have to reverse turn to clean up the crappy end ... and go for a longer curve on the shoulder to do it ... fingers crossed.

[powderpost]

Watching with much interest.
Have on a few occasions used wood chips and shavings glued into largish voids with super glue (loctite 401 to be exact). Put masking tape at the back first. Do shallow fills at a time and let cool. THen used dark saw dust to simulate ingrown bark to top off.
Very interesting project.
Jim

[Sawdust Maker]

I like the form, it pleasing lines :2tsup: and I would do all I could to keep the knots etc.

thanks for the comments on epoxy, was wondering if it could be used. I was also wondering whether ubeauts dyes would work and what else could be used to get it almost black.

this is an interesting thread, thanks all

[joe greiner]

A dollar short and a day late, I know. (Been on the road for the past week.) But the piece in my link in this thread: http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=68346 was from a root ball with two intersecting roots. I cut away the bark inclusions and filled with epoxy and coffee before, as well as during, turning. And also re-filled when cutting the inside, until it merged with the outside fill. So epoxy is definitely suitable for turning, and the fresh coffee grounds makes a nice terrazzo effect.

Strangest response to that thread: A lady in Chattanooga TN found my telephone number via AnyWho or some such, and called to rave about how great it looked, and her intention to use the technique on some furniture she was making. I shunned total credit of course, with deference to some blokes here.

Joe

[Gene45]

Toni, the Proforme and Munro hollowers mounted in a rig.

Rodney and Gene: is epoxy only a post-turning option or can you turn it? Assuming the latter from Rodney's post (which also suggests the option of spinning the wet epoxy in the form while on the lathe; like a pipe roto-mould).

It turns well. I had one large bowl (15") that "exploded" during rough turning. When I found the pieces I glued them back together with epoxy and finished it. It was green wood that had started to crack before I started on it.

[Gene45]

I like the form, it pleasing lines :2tsup: and I would do all I could to keep the knots etc.

thanks for the comments on epoxy, was wondering if it could be used. I was also wondering whether ubeauts dyes would work and what else could be used to get it almost black.

this is an interesting thread, thanks all

Lee Valley sells some earth pigments. I used burnt umber for a very dark brown. They run a mail order business in Canada, not sure if they would ship to Australia, but his stuff is not hazardous. The following URL will get you to the right page in the catalog

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=20084&cat=1,190,42996

[Frank&Earnest]

Since Joe and Hughie mentioned it a few months ago, I got addicted to epoxy caffeine...:D A drawback I found is that, being harder than the wood, turning it even is difficult, if you are really finicky you notice that it stays a few microns proud. Any suggestions?

[rsser]

Lose the micrometer?

[OGYT]

F&E, I turn away the 'too proud' epoxy and turquoise, with Oland type cutters. I purchase those that have 5% and 10% carbon added. It cuts the turquoise/epoxy without need of often sharpening. My other HSS cutters dulled after about 5 seconds of cutting.

[rsser]

Well, I'm gonna go for the rustic look. With all that branchwood exposed I've decided it would look silly to finesse the filling.

Will just epoxy the branch/knots to hold the b*ggers in place while I do my worst.

But thanks to all for bending your mind to the problem.

btw, I hate turquoise tinted epoxy with a vengeance ... though thanks Al for the spelling ;-} ... (and do you post on AAW? I guess there could well be more than one woodturner Al in Texas but just wondered).

[Frank&Earnest]

Lose the micrometer?
:U. There was a bit of :roll: in my ssentence too, you know?:D

[Frank&Earnest]

F&E, I turn away the 'too proud' epoxy and turquoise, with Oland type cutters. I purchase those that have 5% and 10% carbon added. It cuts the turquoise/epoxy without need of often sharpening. My other HSS cutters dulled after about 5 seconds of cutting.

Thanks. Sharper is the answer, then.

[joe greiner]

Since Joe and Hughie mentioned it a few months ago, I got addicted to epoxy caffeine...:D A drawback I found is that, being harder than the wood, turning it even is difficult, if you are really finicky you notice that it stays a few microns proud. Any suggestions?

I haven't noticed this problem. I mix my epoxy-and-coffee mortar heavy on the coffee, at least as much dry coffee grounds by volume as the already-mixed epoxy. The softer coffee probably degrades the strength to near that of the wood. Turquoise or metal filings/powder would be another story, of course.

Joe

[OGYT]

It's me on AAW, Ern. :D

[ptc]

looking good Ern

[Allan at Wallan]

Ern,

I go past your street each Wednesday morning
on my way to my woodturning club activities.
If you think your wood is likely to break up please
avoid any turning on that day in case I get a
broken windscreen when passing.
In case of damage I will give you an "International
Roast" to add to the coffee you have used.

Allan

________________________________________

I once stole a calendar - and got 12 months.

[rsser]

LOL.

Have put some coffee tinted epoxy in a couple of the holes; more tomorrow. Will see how they hold during hollowing. I think (hope) they'll give notice before vacating.

Which club btw?

[Hardenfast]

Fascinating thread Ern. Watching with rapt attention - so much to learn - so little time..... Many thanks for sharing.

wayne

[rsser]

Pleasure Wayne.

And btw, happy May Day to all the comrades ;-}

Well the filling is taking two layers. The coffee grounds thicken the epoxy nicely (and improve the smell out of sight) so it's not running away down the second branch voids.

Should be hard and ready to go tomorrow. I need to round over the shoulder a little and take some fine cuts down the length to get rid of the chip-outs.

I must've been asleep at the wheel as the tenon is only marginally larger than the Powergrips fully tightened so in idle moments I've been pondering 'what if?'.

Axe wedges in the tenon? Will prob only widen the bottom.
Alum flashing for packing? May lead to slippage.

What does the brains trust think?

[Calm]

........I must've been asleep at the wheel as the tenon is only marginally larger than the Powergrips fully tightened so in idle moments I've been pondering 'what if?'.

Axe wedges in the tenon? Will prob only widen the bottom.
Alum flashing for packing? May lead to slippage.

What does the brains trust think?

Ern
If the tenon is 4 inches for powergrips and the block is a waste block can you screw on a face plate ring and hold it that way??

The screw holes should disapear with the waste block.

[rsser]

Hi David,

Yeah, I could, but screws in softish end grain are a risk IMHO.

[Cliff Rogers]

Yup, that is the main idea of power grips or shark jaws..... to get a good grip of a lot of firmly attached timber.

[rsser]

... waiting, waiting.

Looks like the kid's been at it with a chokky icy-pole.

Smells good too ;-}

The other issue is what the weight of the overhang will do even if the Powergrips fit. Got a medium spindle steady but it's a big lump.

Maybe it's time for one of Papa Herman's steadies: clamp, two bars with wheels, all-thread rod. Wheels are fixed in a selection of holes on the bars. Getting the height consistent will be a bit of work. Or maybe let her rip and trim down the high ones with a spindle gouge ;-}

[HappyHammer]

Great thread Ern I want to try deep hollowing but wasn't sure about the cost of the hollowing jigs and chisels. How deep can you safely hollow using gouges and scrapers?

HH.

[rsser]

HH, not far in my experience with gear with std handles. 100 - 125mm depending. The prob is flex in the tool with a long overhang.

With a pencil jar tapering out towards the bottom and a straight side, 100 mm is possible, 125 maybe with a 3/8" thick scraper if you have a taste for excitement. With a vase shaped form tapering towards the bottom I've done the same depths with a 17mm P&N Supagouge.

A custom rest inserted into the work as far is possible makes it easier

Hollowers like the Munro and Proforme cut rather than scrape, have caps which prevent catches, and have long shafts and handles which all help with tool control and improve the odds.

But you can make your own Oland style tool - a tip with shaft and solid handle that is a good way into this game and costs peanuts. (Plenty of posts on this in the forum.)

Hope this helps.

[rsser]

This might be a good time for others to chip in with their experience with bought and home-made tools for deep hollowing (as if any invite was needed!). Esp. Jim Carroll who sells both the Munro and Proforme tools.

There are other makers too: Sorby, Kelton etc.

There's some very good articles by Lyn Mangiamelli on this matter at Fred Holder's website.

[HappyHammer]

I was thinking of buying a Hamlet 1" round nose scraper with a 10" (254mm) handle. What do you think is the max depth you can safely use this for hollowing?

I'd be interested in views on the hollowing tools out there as, after searching the forum and having a read, I don't think I'm up to making an Oland style tool. I also want to be confident with a tool if I'm going deep as I'm a beginner, so I might have to buy one.

HH.

[Cliff Rogers]

I made my own from bent bits of square bar in about '93 I think.
They weren't flash & couldn't go very deep but I did win 2 prizes at the Townsville show with pieces made with them.
Allan at Wallan now owns them & to show that they worked, I did an under cut rim on the big bowl we made at Ern's place last year.

I now own & use the Vermec hollowing set. :2tsup:

[hughie]

:U well here goes I have been holding off just watching the progress.

I use a Porforme on a custom 20mm shaft for most of the deep hollowing. Getting around the corner or reverse hollowing I use a Oland type.

The additional handle gives very good control and with it rapid removal. Its from an old hammer drill and is very comfortable.

[Allan at Wallan]

LOL.

Have put some coffee tinted epoxy in a couple of the holes; more tomorrow. Will see how they hold during hollowing. I think (hope) they'll give notice before vacating.

Which club btw?

Northern Woodturners Club in High St, Thornbury
located in a hall behind the Salvation Army Church
cnr High and Gooch. We will shortly be relocating
into the hall that was the Opportunity Shop.

Great bunch of blokes.

Allan

_____________________________________

I once stole a calendar - and got 12 months.

[powderpost]

I regularly go to 200mm deep but have gone to 275mm before the jocks are in danger. Most often used tool is one of the early Sorby/Stewart tool, but i also have tools made from 35 x 12mm mild steel bar with heavy duty hacksaw blade pieces silver soldered to the end. The recently posted cedar vase was done with the Stewart tool.
Jim

[joe greiner]

This might be a good time for others to chip in with their experience with bought and home-made tools for deep hollowing (as if any invite was needed!). Esp. Jim Carroll who sells both the Munro and Proforme tools.

There are other makers too: Sorby, Kelton etc.

There's some very good articles by Lyn Mangiamelli on this matter at Fred Holder's website.

1/8-inch (3mm) HSS cutter in 1/2-inch (13mm) shank of my shop-built Oland tool. Deepest I've gone is about 170mm, where chatter became too much of an adventure. This was with the tool rest very very near the mouth of the piece.

Joe

[rsser]

I was thinking of buying a Hamlet 1" round nose scraper with a 10" (254mm) handle. What do you think is the max depth you can safely use this for hollowing? HH.

As I'd posted HH, using this kind of tool (assuming 1/4" thick shaft), best I've done is around 100 mm. If you can get a rest into the work you can go further. (Eg. Sorby make a modular rest system inc. a box hollowing rest which is intended to do this but I've never used it or heard reports of how solid it is).

[OGYT]

I have a Black Walnut vase that is 13.5" (over 330mm) tall x 6" dia at the wides point. I hollowed this before I had any other tools, with an Oland tool... 3/16" cutter in 3/4" x 12" round tool shaft, in a 3/4"id x 16" black pipe, adapted to a 1"id x 24" black pipe handle filled with BBs. The 1" handle is wrapped with foam pipe insulation, so I can stick it under my arm to add my body weight to the BB ballast. I had very little chatter with this system, but it took light cuts and good rpms, and a steady rest near the top of the piece.

Ern, this makes a really efficient steady rest... Pic
It's made with 3/4" x 1/2" T-Track and rollerblade wheels.

[rsser]

Nice steady Al. I like the T-track idea. Slotted ply tends to bind when you go to adjust it.

Thanks for the post.

Added: here's one account of deep hollowing; I've been thinking of Herman's kind of steady rest - www.hdv.net/2004/<WBR>turning%20a%20large%20vase%20-%20freehand.pdf (http://www.hdv.net/2004/turning%20a%20large%20vase%20-%20freehand.pdf)
and here's his design: http://www.hdv.net/tips/Making%20a%20Steady%20Rest.htm

I need to have clearance over the top for the laser arm.

[Sawdust Maker]

...

Ern, this makes a really efficient steady rest... Pic
It's made with 3/4" x 1/2" T-Track and rollerblade wheels.

OGYT

Can you please give us a couple of more photos of the steady rest ie from the other side. I'm interested in how you've used the T-track
pretty please

rssr

thanks for the links, the rest looks simple enough
cheers


SM

[Jim Carroll]

The scrapers are used only for cleaning up not for hollowing.

If you want to to any hollowing you need a minimum of 3/8" thick by 1-1/2" wide to avoid flex.

I have used both the Munro mini, mega and the new proforme tools and find they all work just as good as each other in the different size hollow forms you try to do. Obviously you would not use the mini on the one ern is doing as it does not have enough reach. The main thing is to try and get the toolrest as close as you can to eliminate too much over hang but far enough away to be able to get the tool back out without catching.

The new proforme has a better gate compared to the older model so there is not as much gap between the guard and the cutter.

This helps when you roll the tool of the guard and then the cutter starts cutting, with the older version you felt you were in no mans land waiting for it to catch.

I am more of a feel turner so do not like the gate type as it does not give you the feed back needed. Others like them as they do take out some of the jarring that can happen on the deeper forms.

Each tool has its place.

[rsser]

Thanks for the post Jim.

(btw, I hollow end-grain pencil jars and lidded boxes with a square scraper, after opening them up with a twist or saw-tooth bit).

[Harry72]

I just scored a Sorby hollowmaster RS230(thanks Jim!), cant wait to try it out :) any hints on using one?

[TTIT]

I just scored a Sorby hollowmaster RS230(thanks Jim!), cant wait to try it out :) any hints on using one?
I put a couple of degrees rake on mine and never looked back 'cos I couldn't make it work with the square edge it came with :shrug: Mainly use it for shear scraping these days but it's still a top hollower to about 4" deep.:2tsup:

[hughie]

I put a couple of degrees rake on mine and never looked back 'cos I couldn't make it work with the square edge it came with :shrug: Mainly use it for shear scraping these days but it's still a top hollower to about 4" deep.:2tsup:



:U I was feeling adventurous and put 5 or so +degrees on my knock off.

It ain't for the faint hearted.....................:o :U .............eeeeeeek:C

[Harry72]

So yer reckon a slight touch up on the cutter angle helps, I'll keep that in mind.
Ive had a go with it, made a pot shaped thingy managed to get about 6" deep without much fuss(tool rest was in past the rim). I did notice that you need to keep the handle downwards so the cutter is in the upper quarter for it to cut, is this what you meant by increasing the angle on the cutter to help get cutter back to the centre area?
4" deep is that on a closed/narrow necked form?

[TTIT]

So yer reckon a slight touch up on the cutter angle helps, I'll keep that in mind.
Ive had a go with it, made a pot shaped thingy managed to get about 6" deep without much fuss(tool rest was in past the rim). I did notice that you need to keep the handle downwards so the cutter is in the upper quarter for it to cut, is this what you meant by increasing the angle on the cutter to help get cutter back to the centre area? Precisely! With a small entry hole it was too hard to keep the cutter high enough in the form. Cutting that high didn't feel natural to me either so I found it hard to tell where I was - proven by several forms that became donut and bowl sets :B

4" deep is that on a closed/narrow necked form?4" was 'comfortable' - could go to 6" as you said but the ratio of handle to shaft is getting too close for comfort by that time :shrug:

[Jim Carroll]

Have the underside of the tool on centre height or toolrest on centre height that way the cutter is above centre then you drop it down slightly to about centre height.

[Frank&Earnest]

I haven't noticed this problem. I mix my epoxy-and-coffee mortar heavy on the coffee, at least as much dry coffee grounds by volume as the already-mixed epoxy. The softer coffee probably degrades the strength to near that of the wood. Turquoise or metal filings/powder would be another story, of course.

Joe

Thanks for the tip Joe, sorry I was otherwise busy on the forum these days.:) I have been indeed much more sparing with the coffee, it goes with reason that increasing the amount should reduce the hardness. :2tsup:

[Frank&Earnest]

I must've been asleep at the wheel as the tenon is only marginally larger than the Powergrips fully tightened so in idle moments I've been pondering 'what if?'.

Axe wedges in the tenon? Will prob only widen the bottom.
Alum flashing for packing? May lead to slippage.

What does the brains trust think?

Ern, been there, done that.:- The way I fixed it was to cut newspaper strips as wide as the tenon, soak them with PVA and wrap them around the tenon to the required diametre. The chuck never knew the difference. :D

[OGYT]

Good tip, F&E!!!

[rsser]

Yeah, thanks F&E.

[Cliff Rogers]

Better than masking tape. :2tsup:

[rodent]

Ern ILL be going to the market sunday week i will find out if the guy who sells the ccd cameras has one with sound and if so how much .

[artme]

Are you finished and lost inside that vessel!:D:D:D

[rsser]

I wish.

Lost to the demands of chores and family last weekend and mother's day promises a repeat. Cooking for 10 family members on Sunday.

Minor progress:

My spindle steady will in fact fit the form about half way or a bit further away from the headstock so that's a relief.

I now figure that my extended 5/8" home-made shaft for the Proforme hollowing head may well flex over a long overhang and have picked up some 3/4" rod - the max the Vicmarc hollowing tool support will accept.

[rsser]

OK, next step; commonly known as diversion behaviour. That's because I'm putting off the refining and cleaning up of the outside of the form. There's b*gger all fudge factor left. I don't want to drop the shoulder too much, and the line from shoulder to foot is critical.

So instead of polishing two dozen glasses for tomorrow I retired to the shed with my big hard rod.

Got a 60 cm 3/4" mild steel rod from the local steel guy (who asked '2 foot?' and I replied 'No, 60cm' :p )

The drill press is bench mounted so 10cm had to be cut off it anyway to get through the table bottom (doh).

To mount the Proforme hollowing head you have to drill a hole a smidgen bigger than its 5/16" spigot. I have the full set of imperial twist drills except of course the one that is 1/64 up (double doh). The hole has to be offset to allow the long cutter edge to align with the shaft.

Then a hole needs to be drilled and tapped to allow a grub screw to mate with a flat on the head spigot.

And finally a flat needs to be ground to accommodate the nearside end of the brass cap. (Not pretty but the glasses are waiting).

(Just to keep Scooter's blood pressure down a grub screw was found to hold the spigot this time :D )

Pics attached.

[joe greiner]

I hope this isn't posted too late. Or, maybe you had better luck than I did. Your offset end hole and larger shank may or may not be advantageous.

For my first Oland tool, I used ½" round bar with a 1/8" HSS cutter, centred on the shank. I arranged the hole for the grub screw so that the other side could be used when/if the near side threads became buggered. Tapping after drilling the end hole was an adventure. Apparently, there was enough flex in the shank wall to throw the tap off pitch - Goodbye tap (two actually). I finally got both walls tapped by tapping very very gingerly.

For my next efforts, I'll drill and tap the hole(s) for the grub screw first. For an offset cutter, with only one position for the grub screw, and the end hole drilled first, it might be best to drill the pilot hole, then relieve the far (weaker) side of the hole to clearance diameter, then tap only the near side. This should preserve the tap, as well as some of your sanity.

Joe

[rsser]

Thanks Joe.

The shaft is to take the Proforme head, not an Oland tip, as shown in the first pic above.

But I am thinking about setting up the other end of the shaft to take a removable HSS square cutter. Wondering about grinding a deep flat and fixing a washer with two screws to clamp down on the cutter and allow it some swivel.

[scooter]

(Just to keep Scooter's blood pressure down a grub screw was found to hold the spigot this time :D )


Goodonya Ern :) :D

[artme]

Ern,
Are you wanting o allow the cutter to swivel as you work?
I think if this is the case you will have a huge problem controlling you cut.

[rsser]

Well, 'swivel' as in angle it, clamp it down and go in.

Twisting forces obviously will increase in proportion to the length of tip overhang from the shaft, and the shaft will be held with 4 grub screws in the support, and I dunno whether those will be enough to stop the twisting. Should do.

[OGYT]

"...and the shaft will be held with 4 grub screws in the support, and I dunno whether those will be enough to stop the twisting. Should do."

Ern, I only have two grub screws in my captured rig, and it holds well. Sometimes I have a cutter in it with a tip that's over 1.5" from the shaft center.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[Calm]

Ern, I only have two grub screws in my captured rig, and it holds well. Sometimes I have a cutter in it with a tip that's over 1.5" from the shaft center.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

I prefer to see 2 grubscrews instead of 4 . With 2 you are clamping against the rounded edge of the hole whereeas 4 grub screws dont jamb it against the wall. i think 2 are stronger and less likely to come loose. Although it is not in the centre which you can adjust 4 to do.

[joe greiner]

Thanks Joe.

The shaft is to take the Proforme head, not an Oland tip, as shown in the first pic above.

But I am thinking about setting up the other end of the shaft to take a removable HSS square cutter. Wondering about grinding a deep flat and fixing a washer with two screws to clamp down on the cutter and allow it some swivel.

Yup. Got that concept, Ern. I was just describing the hazard of tapping across another hole.

Joe

[rsser]

Sorry Joe. Misunderstood you.

[rsser]

K, got some shed time tonight.

Had to drop the shoulder some after yet more filling.

Major voids at the top branch were revealed but luckily I could get an almost unbroken bead at the top ... this will define the opening (pic 1).

That meant reducing the belly. Did this with a 3/8" bowl gouge but I didn't manage too good a job with the tango and had to clean up the line with a scraper. I've never done a curve this long before and clearly need to take dancing lessons to free up the hips ;-}

Didn't seem to make much difference to the finish whether the scraper was at 45 degrees or flat on the rest. It was surprising though how quickly the cypress dulled the burr.

Taking off more timber revealed more checks so plenty of CA and sanding was called for.

I'm now quite happy with the form (pic 2).

Next step is to chuck it. That will throw it out of round a bit but I'll get out the 80 grit gouge for some mucky retruing.

May also run out of grip; if so I'll try F&E's tip to build up the tenon.

(Actually, looking at the pics, maybe the form needs checking; would like the foot to be clearly narrower than the opening.)

[joe greiner]

I've lost track of which end is up (Nothing new about that of course :- ). Don't make the foot so small that it tips over easily. Or maybe just glue some lead shot in the inside bottom as needed for ballast.

Joe

[rsser]

Good point Joe. But this is art ;-}

That said, I may not be able to hollow to the base so it'll bring it's own weight :rolleyes:

(Added: the right side is up.)

And thanks Al and Calm for the grub screw tips.

So to continue the saga ...

Got back out tonight and sized it up for the chuck.

Enough tenon for grip (hooray) but too much length (doh again).

So I remounted it between drive spur and cup centre, took out most of the excess length and removed the piece and cut the stub off with a saw.

Remounted it lightly in the chuck, brought up the tailstock and pushed it square into the jaws. (For any newbs, that's why you leave a shoulder on the tenon.).

The nice thing about a cup tailstock centre is that it'll take these remountings and still register positively.

[artme]

This has turned into a great tutorial fellas!!!

[RETIRED]

The foot looks about right to me if you stand it up the right way.

[rsser]

This has turned into a great tutorial fellas!!!

It's a bit nerve-wracking having a virtual audience leaning over the shoulder! And the hard part hasn't started yet.

...

Thanks .

[TEEJAY]

What depth of hollow are you hoping to get Ern?

Also what sorta hollow are you planning. Are you hoping for a thin wall or are you just going to remove 2/3 the inside timber?

I saw a couple of presentations at the Bris WW show one by Bruce Bell of Vicmarc and his idea was that these vessels are mainly for holding dried flowers or such and no need to aim for thin wall hollow form - but I suppose if you are after something for handling and appreciation of turners then you will have other ideas.

I also saw on the Vermec stand a hollowing tool on my "can't live without" addition to the lathe a wonderful hollowing tool and support but I think it's maximum hollowing depth (from memory) was not much over 300mm. You have a 500mm long object - so my curiousity is to what depth you intend to go.

[rsser]

TJ, with the tenon and the turning away of the shoulder I had to do the total height is now 39cm.

As for the machismo of wall thickness :rolleyes: at this stage I don't know. Conservative is prob. wise given the knots and my skill level. And Joe's point is important: too light and it'll easily blow or be knocked over.

Yeah, IIRC Cliff has the Vermec and can comment on how it goes. Least you getting some cutting tools thrown in compared with the VM support. On the other hand the VM allows you to fit varying kinds of tools, and shafts up to 3/4" in diameter. Seems most guys doing this kind of thing mount a HSS scraper tip in a mild steel shaft.

[rsser]

Well Cypress is an interesting timber to finish :rolleyes:

Using std power sanding techniques deep scratches were left that subsequent grits wouldn't remove. Sounds a bit like Huon.

It took three tries from scratch (ahem) to sort this out.

One problem was using Sunmight velcro paper from a local supplier ... crap paper.

So it's now sanded down to 800 grit and has half a dozen coats of weak shellac sanding sealer (Ubeaut White dewaxed shellac that had gone off, diluted 1:3 with meths). Chose this to get just a bit of darkening to blend in the CA/dust filled checks. Not dark enough as it happens.

Will knock this back with hand-held fine wet and dry and hopefully it'll be ready for drilling the depth hole with a sawtooth bit and extension.

[hughie]

It's a bit nerve-wracking having a virtual audience leaning over the shoulder! And the hard part hasn't started yet.


such is the price of fame...:U

[rsser]

LoL.

Or infamy.

The lump stares back at me in silent reproach every time I go out to the shed for an illicit fag.

Lost my sense of playfulness in turning a piece.

[Calm]

Come on Ern where's the pics

I know i'm impatient but waiting for the big curly things and photos - its like getting a new bandsaw or thicknesser and reading the instructions and watching the video:rolleyes::rolleyes: instead of bolt it together, get a lump of wood and put through it to try it out. :oo::oo:

The tension Ern, the tension, it getting to me:D:D:D:D

cant wait

[rsser]

Well, it's your kindly donated piece Calm, so ...

Remounted it in the chuck adding the spindle steady which sits about half way down.

More out of round than I expected which will make a clean opening more challenging than I wanted.

Tightened up the Titan and Powergrips hard (like with multi-grips) since I didn't want the shoulder of the tenon broken off.

Turning off the stub revealed major voids at the top (pic 1).

I like depth holes and so used my procedure for hollowing pepper grinders. Was aiming for a 340mm hole. Opened up the first bit with a 2" saw tooth bit in a Jacobs chuck.

Then did the depth drilling with a 1" saw tooth bit in a MT extension (pic 2).

Measured repeatedly, and had to mark the quill rather than the extension. Kept withdrawing and blowing the shavings out with a rubber tube. Took it gently, esp. the withdrawing, mindful of 's warning of Jacob chucks coming out of the tailstock. As it happened that occurred with the extension but only on the home stretch so I hit the mushroom switch, removed the tailstock and was able to wiggle the extension and bit out by hand.

Sure took some time. Expect after the 20th it'll be easier :rolleyes:

For the old hands, what could I have done better/quicker?

[joe greiner]

Sure sounds like "fun", Ern. Especially coaxing the bit out when it's clogged with shavings. My Jacobs chuck shank has Jacobs taper into the chuck and Morse taper into the tailstock. Even more "fun" when they both loosen at the same time. I guess the MT extension reduces the "fun" to only one adventure.

I've abandoned Forstner/sawtooth bits for end-grain drilling in favour of Irwin/Speedbor augers. They have a lead screw, but in most timbers the screw just fills with dust and doesn't pull too hard into the timber. For some hardwoods, it may be advisable to grind down the lead screw, but we have softer wood around here. Their three flutes still clog a bit, so frequent extraction and blowout is still the way to go.

The Irwin bits have been available here at Lowes and Home Depot for a while; probably in stock at Bunnings and such. Irwin also has 6- and 12-inch extensions that snap onto the bit shank without the need for grub screws.

Cheers,
Joe

[rsser]

Thanks for the tip Joe. Augurs prob. be a bit easier to sharpen too.

Yeah, if the bit had come out of the extension there would have been some cursing.