Frame and Panel Construction

[silentC]

Had a bit of a frustrating time in the shed last night. I'm making up some panels and, typically, I've decided to do it the hard way.

I've milled some 20x40 stock with an ogee and a groove for the panel. Cut it to length, morticed the stiles and cut tenons on the rails. Notched out the ends of the stile moulding to receive the rail and mitred the ends of the moulding so it all fits together.

Man, that is hard to get right. I think I need to make the mitres slightly more obtuse so that the front of the mitre join is closed, even if the back is slightly open. I'm cutting the mitres with a 45 deg. fence and a chisel, which does a good job, but getting the joins to all close up and still end up with a square frame is very difficult.

I realise that most people probably use a cope and stile router bit to do this but is anyone out there doing it the old fashioned way and, if so, do you have any tips?

[echnidna]

Generally you don't mitre the moulding sections of rails and stiles as the dimensional changes that occur due to humidity changes means the mitres can open up. That said - at this point in time dont worry about that just make sure you seal all the wood well.

The faster and more reliable method is to scribe one moulding so that it overlaps the other moulding thus giving the appearance of a mitred join.

There was an excellent thread a while ago on skirting boards that's worth studying as it went into the process in some detail.

B.T.W. thats why we use router cutters. The old timers who built fancy furniture only did it by hand because they didn't have the choice of tools that we have nowadays. Though some modern tools really dont save much time while others save heaps of time.

For example, I dont use a handplane very much. My thicknesser is so much better.
But I rarely use an orbital sander, once everything is machined and assembled nice and flat hand sanding is actually faster.

[GeoffS]

Echidna is right on not using mitres in this situation. Depending on the shape of the mouldings though you will need a curved carving tool or gouge to do a good job - this is generally much smaller work than skirting boards which can be done with a coping saw. Also the cuts are 'blind'.
On the subject of 'cope and stile' construction though I may disagree. It may be fine for panels but when I see it used for doors and even worse for window sashes I can not accept it. It doesn't take an engineering degree to see how the forces in a door or window are applied. Cope and stile provides no protection from the stiles splitting along the grain. Mortice and tenon does. Screws or dowels inserted after the joint is made are only a very second rate fix.
That's my opinion!!
Cheers

[Arron]

I can't quite follow your original post, but if what you are saying is that you are finding it hard to get the mitres to square up, then wouldn't fine tuning with a shooting board and plane be the best way.

regards
Arron

[silentC]

Thanks for the replies. What I ended up doing was I put a couple of cardboard shims under the back of my 45 deg. guide so that the angle would be slightly more obtuse. This made sure the front of the mitre was closed and gives a much neater result.

Regarding movement etc, the moulding, or sticking as they call it, is less than 10mm wide and it's part of the stile/rail section, which is 40mm in total, so I don't believe it will move very much.

Coping the sticking would be a very difficult job. You'd have to do it with chisels etc. because it's not possible to get a through cut. This way would be appropriate if the moulding was a separate piece.

I've seen kitchen cupboard doors made with 'mitred sticking'. Unless you're going to use a separate moulding, I don't think it would be feasible to do it any other way. Of course, most of them just use a cope and stile bit to do it, but then you have to install floating tenons if you want to get the strength of M/T.

[GeoffS]

SilentC -
Just a thought on which is more difficult:-
Window sashes were always 'coped', they were made by joiners and sometimes just by plain old carpenters.
Furniture is generally mitred - it is made by cabinet or furniture makers.
When I refer to 'cabinet makers' there I don't believe I am referring to the current generation of commercial cabinet makers!!
Cheers

[silentC]

Geoff,

I'm not up on the history of joinery but did those joiners and carpenters scribe the cope by hand, or did they use a moulder or a moulding plane? The coped joint approach lends itself very well to the use of machinery. You wouldn't even need to know how to use a chisel to be able to make a satisfactory job of it. Anybody can run a bit of stock through a moulder ;)

Cheers,
Darren

[Clampman]

Silent C,
This is the fourth and last time I will try posting. After typing for a long time three times now and getting knocked off, I will use word and copy it into the post. I like the site which I just found yesterday.

I’m 3 months late to help with your frame and panel post, but this may help in the future.

We call what you were doing "jack mitering" in the states - any time you combine a miter and butt fit in the same joint. I used to do hundreds per year if not more, mostly on beaded faceframes and casings. Here are some of the ways I did them.

1. Constructed a crosscut sled for a table saw with vertical fences fore and aft. Set the saw on a 45, cut through both fences and the bottom, raising the blade until it was at the right height. Mark and cut the rails using a backer to prevent tearout. Leave your stiles a little long on each end. Mark for the cuts on each end - make your first cut long then go to the end and make your second cut just far enough in from the stile end so you don't blow the end off. Then make a series of cuts between the two, slide the stock back and forth between the first two cuts to clean it up while it's over the blade. Then make your money cut. You can cut the extra 1/2" off later.

2. Construct a 3 sided shooting board 3" wider than your stock, at least a foot and a half long (for easy clamping and cantilevering over the edge of your workbench), and just wide enough to slide your stock into. Cut perfect miters on each end. Slide your stock in where you can just see your mark, and make your depth cut with an offset back saw or one of those jap saws if you use them over there, using the board as a guide. You can then take out the rest of the stock with a router, or a jointer if you have one that will take a deep enough cut. Then pare the inside corner with a chisel. You could also rip that off on a table saw, but it's too easy for me to screw up that way.

3. I was doing so many of them I bought a molding head for the table saw with two 45's and a 1/2" flat on top to speed thing up and eliminate hand work. Then I made a steel cross cut sled because it scared me so much.


Good luck next time.

By the way, I had a great time in Australia when I was there in '69 on R&R from S.E.A. Too bad plane tickets are so expensive from here to there.

Regards from the States.

Clampman

[Clampman]

Sorry Silent C

Upon re reading my post it sounds like I was talking to one of my hard headed crew members.

I didn't mean for it to come out that way.

My apologies.

Clampman

[silentC]

Clampman,

Thanks for taking the trouble to post. I wonder why you were having so many problems with it? Sometimes you might get an error when you try to submit the page - usually it's possible to get back to the 'Reply to Topic' page by hitting the back button and you should see your post still sitting there so you can try again.

I have some more of these to do soon, so I'll give your number 2 method a work out then. I don't think my tablesaw is up to it. I bought one of those 'Jap saws' the other day - they're pretty popular over here. Good idea using the jointer, I might give that a go.

I think you'll find Australia has changed a bit since then but it's still a pretty good place - hasn't totally gone to the dogs yet ;)

Cheers

[silentC]

Upon re reading my post it sounds like I was talking to one of my hard headed crew members

No problem at all, we're all pretty hard-headed around here ;)

[GeoffS]

Silent C

Sorry I never replied to your last question however shortly after you posted your question I 'went bush' (no internet), had a small mishap which lead to 10 days in hospital (3 days in ICU!) a new titanium hip ( which I didn't really need) and a certain degree of distraction from the more important matters of life - like woodwork forums.

I think Clampman more than answered your question - however my own answer would have been - if you are just refererring to the coping around the shaped moulding it is partly scribed but in the small ones (such as window sash) really more of an eyeball job

Cheers

[silentC]

Thanks Geoff.

You didn't fall down a cliff or something did you? I did something like that and I've got an excess bit of metal in my foot now. I think I need a couple of those titanium hips though - I'm also looking forward to the day when they can give you a titanium lower back. Mine's nearly had it and I'm not even 40 yet
:(

[Rocker]

Darren,

I don't see what is wrong with using cope and stile bits, even without floating tenons. I think the joints they produce are quite strong enough anyway. After all, how much strain is put on a kitchen cupboard door in normal use?

Matched bits are on sale at MLCS for US$69.95 for the set at the moment. See

http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/bt_match.html

Rocker

[silentC]

Rocker,

There's certainly nothing wrong with them. I look at every 5 piece door I see and have yet to find one that hasn't been made that way. Some people are critical of them because of the shortness of the stub tenon but others counter that by saying modern glue makes the joint strong enough. I saw the mitred method in a book I've got and thought "that's the way to do it". I happy enough with the results but it's time consuming and hard to get right.

I don't have a set of cope and stile bits. You can put it down to a combination of laziness, reluctance to spend money, and a desire to try and do it with the tools I've got in the shed. As you know, it's not beyond me to buy gadgets, so I'll probably cave in and order a set.

Cheers,
Darren

[GeoffS]

SilentC
Nup, I didn't fall down a cliff, just forgot what my mother used to tell me 60+ years ago - "now you be careful going through that fence, you'll catch your foot in a wire, fall and break your leg". Well I suppose it took me 60+ years and 1000s of fences but I finally did it!!!

I'm still not happy with cope and stile even for kitchen cupboards. I suppose it depends on how hard the kids slam the doors! There is nothing to stop the stiles from splitting. Even the idea of inserting dowels (or wood screws) would be better than nothing although I've seen that fail on windows.

Cheers

[IanW]

Darren - you wrote: "I look at every 5 piece door I see and have yet to find one that hasn't been made that way. Some people are critical of them because of the shortness of the stub tenon but others counter that by saying modern glue makes the joint strong enough."

And I just spent the weekend fixing several that have come apart. Cow of a job, and probably won't last long, since you can't get the old glue off very well.
"Modern glues" are no stronger than hide glue, in fact your average PVA is a lot less 'strong' and softens at a much lower temperature.
The main advantage of these coped joints is that they do the job, are neat, and need little skill once the setup is made. The average working life of a kitchen nowadays is said to be 15 years - which is about the life of a lot of these doors (ours are 16 yrs old as near as we can figure, and the carcases as well as the doors are coming to the end).
A big disadvantage of buying a set of cope and stick cutters is that you are then limited to a single, boring moulding profile, just like all the other boring doors you see jumping out at you everywhere. For fine furniture that you want to pass on, stick with the way you first described. It's not easy to do well, and needs a bit of practice, but I bet you did your 4th joint a lot quicker and better than the first?
Coping or mitering (of the moulding, not the whole joint) were both used a lot - it seems to depend on the complexity of the profile and the maker's preference. Unless your 'sticking' is unusually wide, the mitre is too short to open and close all that much - if you get it right to start with it seems to stay right.
A 'cheating' method which you see on plenty of old pieces is to add the sticking on - if done well it can be difficult to imposible to spot. If the wood is going to be very hard to match, make the rails and stiles a little wider to start, then rip the moulding bits off and reapply to their matching pieces after the frame is glued up - then it's easier to get joints right and tight, and easy to cut a few simple, short mitres. On a lot of the old fancy cedar pieces, they made no secret that the mouldings were applied - it was turned into a 'feature'. This is not necessarily easier - the ones where the moulding holds a flush panel in are tricky - you don't have any reference surfaces when glueing up, so they are hard to keep straight and square - I'd like to know how the old blokes did them so well, but it probably had a lot to do with skill and practice!
Have fun,

[silentC]

Ian,

Thanks. It did occur to me as I looked at the router bit catalogue that I would either have to buy 3 or 4 profiles, or be stuck with the same one on every panel I make.

I'll persevere with the mitred sticking. I've seen the separate moulding trick as well and have wondered if that would be any easier. It looks just as fiddly to me, especially if you want your sticking to be small. It seems to work better when the moulding is proud of the frame and you have a rebate in the back to locate it and conceal the join. I'm not a fan of that look.

Might even post a picture one day - if I ever finish anything. The vanity I was making is in use and I haven't made the doors for it yet!

Cheers,
Darren

[IanW]

Darren,

"The vanity I was making is in use and I haven't made the doors for it yet! "

Been there many times myself!! Amazing how much dust can collect in an open cupboard?! I hope the Significant Other is tolerant and realises that heirloom quality takes time.....
Yes, applying mouldings can be both easier and harder, as I was getting at above. It all depends on the look you require, but applied moulding can certainly be done well enough to fool even a good scrutiny. Getting a god fit to joints with mitred/coped mouldings depends on getting that stile end flat and square and pared accurately to the exact depth. Making M&T with straight, falt pieces is a lot easier! The wood you use can make a lot of difference - you have to be very patient to do this sort of thing with a wild-grained bit of wood.
The sort of moulding as a 'feature' that I was talking about is this sort of thing, where you can't do it any other way:
cheers,

[silentC]

Here you go:

[IanW]

Pretty convincing!
Of course you picked the best one for the photo! :D
Given the length of the mitre, I reckon that joint should stay fine, and even if it does come and go a bit with the seasons, you're probably the only person on earth who's going to notice it. I'd back your joint to be still sound and looking good in 15 years' time over one that was just glued up off the cope-and-stick router bit.
I was killing time over the weekend and picked up the latest Australian Woodworker. There is an article on rail and stile joints there by Les MIller in which he claims these router-cut joints are fine 'because of the strength of modern glues'. I'm surprised an old pro like that suscribes to this idea - there have surely been enough articles in numerous W'working mags over the last 20 years or so dispelling that myth. He intimates further that if 'animal' glues are used, joints will fail within 50 years because the glue 'crystallises' (??!!)
I wonder how he explains the perfectly sound joints in furniture hundreds of years old?
Woops - getting a bit off topic, here....;)
avagooday

[silentC]

Of course you picked the best one for the photo

Naturally ;)

I just noticed in the photo that the painter was a bit sloppy with his cutting in this morning. I'll have to have words with him tonight :mad:

Cheers.

[BeanerSA]

I know this is an old thread, but I am in a habit of keeping information in single, relevant threads, instead of multiple threads with the same info in it (i'm on a lot of forums).

I am looking to make two frame and panel doors for a small cupboard, and I don't have access to a router table with rail and stile bits at the moment. My question is this:

If I cut a rebate in the rail and stile with a router, can I just stop it after the point where the pieces of the frame butt together? Are there any problems with doing this?

Would an alternative be, to build the frames, route a rebate at the back, and hold the panel in with a bead or similar method?

Paul

[AlexS]

If I cut a rebate in the rail and stile with a router, can I just stop it after the point where the pieces of the frame butt together? Are there any problems with doing this?

Would an alternative be, to build the frames, route a rebate at the back, and hold the panel in with a bead or similar method?

Paul

No problems with either method Beaner.:2tsup:

[marri334]

i have a suggestion if its of any use (mainly because i built my kitchen cupboard with mitred joints and fielded insides)after youve glued your mitre up (by the way i used my table sander with a 45 fence to fine tune the fit ) cut a spline of a different coloured wood and glue up it gives it quite a good look and really strengthens it cheers

[IanW]

Paul - I often do it more or less as you proposed. I make the frame, dry-assemble. & then clamp it sitting on a couple of cleats on the bench top, then run a bearing-guided router bit round to cut the panel rebate. It's wise to do a 'reverse' or climb-cut pass first, then go round in the 'correct' direction. If you don't, you are likely to get severe chipping, which can make a bit of a mess of your nice new frame. (If you haven't done much 'climb-cutting', practice a bit first - the idea is to make a light cut so the bit doesn't grab & run away from you.)

This method gives you a panel rebate with rounded corners, so you will need to either round the corners of the panel, or chisel the ends of the rebate square. I prefer to round the panel corners as it is quick & easy.

For utility doors like those for kitchen cupboards, I use biscuits, & glue-up the door frame, then route a rebate behind & hold the panel in with a thin beading strip. No point getting too flash with doors that are going to be chucked out in 20 years or so because fashions have changed..... :U
Cheers,

[Malcolm Eaton]

Here you go:

The photo of the joint with the mitering of the moulding joint is a good example of why you should not mitre. The old way is the way to go , that is as used in sash's and glazed doors construction etc using a Mortise and Tenon joint and scribing the moulding on the rail over the moulding of the stile.
In carrying out the joinery you are only actually scribing over a small area as the moulding on the stile is cut away across section of the shoulder forming the mortise part of the joint.
All you need is a couple of varying size gouges to form the scribe, no necessity for expensive cutters.
The resulting joint if done with a little care allows you to obtain a neat joint without any gaps. It also allows you a little tolerance in the making and assembly of the joint and obtaining a perfect fit "No Gaps".
I hope I am explaining it clearly.
Cheers
Mac:D

[silentC]

This is a good illustration of a point made on Q&A last night concerning social media and the longevity of things you do and say on the Internet. :) Heaven forbid that the internet and forums had been around when I was 15. I dread what my kids will do to their future reputations over the next couple of decades.

I think you're a bit harsh to judge the technique based on my first attempt at it (and as it turned out the last). I actually picked the mitred sticking idea up from a joinery book, having at the time only just really started with the 'craftsman' approach to joinery. If what you see in the photo is not up to your standards, its not because of the technique, but because of the ineptness of the maker. Although I didn't think it was that bad for a first attempt.

As to the validity and age of the technique, you'll find it illustrated on page 229 of Joyce. Granted that book is relatively modern, being published first in 1970, but I'd imagine that the technique was known before that time.

Nevertheless, I tend to agree that coping is a better idea. But when I make frames now, they have no moulding, so the issue is not something I deal with any more - haven't since I made that cupboard nearly 7 years ago.

[Malcolm Eaton]

This is a good illustration of a point made on Q&A last night concerning social media and the longevity of things you do and say on the Internet. :) Heaven forbid that the internet and forums had been around when I was 15. I dread what my kids will do to their future reputations over the next couple of decades.

I think you're a bit harsh to judge the technique based on my first attempt at it (and as it turned out the last). I actually picked the mitred sticking idea up from a joinery book, having at the time only just really started with the 'craftsman' approach to joinery. If what you see in the photo is not up to your standards, its not because of the technique, but because of the ineptness of the maker. Although I didn't think it was that bad for a first attempt.

As to the validity and age of the technique, you'll find it illustrated on page 229 of Joyce. Granted that book is relatively modern, being published first in 1970, but I'd imagine that the technique was known before that time.

Nevertheless, I tend to agree that coping is a better idea. But when I make frames now, they have no moulding, so the issue is not something I deal with any more - haven't since I made that cupboard nearly 7 years ago.

I did not mean to offend you but the photo seemed to indicated a good example of the difficulty of achieving a hair line joint in carrying out a joint using this technique. Even the best of us would have difficulty as there is virtually no tolerance, just the slightest bit of variation in timber sizes, movement when gluing up and squaring and then there is the risk of shrinkage over future years.
The coping method gives you the tolerance. The method was drummed us when one first started his apprentice in Carpentry and Joinery.
In my case I worked in the shopfitting industry and we would use this method when making timber sashes for glass show cases which in most cases had mouldings running around the edges.
As with any moulding ( skirtings, cornices, chair rails, quarter rounds etc) which meets in a internal corner situation, scribing one member over the other ,makes thing so much easier to carry out with the exception of loose beading.
Regards,
Mac
Mac

[silentC]

Sorry, I didn't mean to give the impression that I was offended. I was a bit bemused by some of my earlier comments in the thread and you'll note I was given the correct answer by Bob and others from the beginning. Being of a stubborn nature, I carried on and, well the cabinet was sold with the house and it's all a distant memory :)

I actually think the worst part of that joint from my photo is the join between the rail and the stile, which looks like you could pass a 5 cent piece through it. That will be due to it being nibbled away with the blade on my Triton saw bench.