Sea going rowboat design considerations

[Daddles]

This whole question is causing me a lot of angst at the moment. I really want to get stuck into PAR's double ender, I want to build that rowboat ... but I've got this half built, 14 foot, family daysailer in the shed, a boat that'll be lovely when built but one which, financially, I can't afford to finish and which, if I do finish, I wonder if I'll use. Hell, I never even chose that boat (it's a weird, irrelevant story but it's true, I never actually chose to build her) and it's only ever been a compromise. I can see it being useful in the family ... provided I take to sailing ... which I haven't done and once again, find summer approaching with me promising that THIS time, I will get this sailing business sorted out. Then there's the cost - hell, I'm renting, unemployed and facing a future of short term contracts at best - apart from the actual costs of finishing the woodwork in Sixpence, I'm faced with buying a trailer plus a set of sails plus ongoing registration costs (which, to be honest, may not be all that great). On the other hand, for a similar or smaller outlay, I can build PAR's rowboat that I can carry on my existing trailer ... which I'd really like to do (hell, I was so excited last week I was researching the meaning and spelling of the name that was suggesting itself to me).

The worst thing about passions is that you can talk yourself into anything you want to do and out of anything you've decided you don't want to.

At the moment, I'm talking myself into finishing Sixpence ... :C

Ah well, maybe the Little Black Dog will give me a reality slap in the face and she will allow me to discover what I actually WILL do with rowboats as opposed to what I'd like to do, and there is part of me wondering just how well this 'flat water boat' will handle stuff she's not supposed to.

Richard

[keyhavenpotter]

I can only offer the sympathy of a fellow sufferer! No income, too many boats, too many ideas, my pals are certain I need treatment!

Brian

[dopeydriver]

Richard , this thread truely has some very good contributions.
With no real help from me , up till now.
But one thing I'd strongly suggest you do , is get out there and get Sailing !!!,
I resolved to do that about this time last year , when we started our move to the coast , and I finished up sailing 3+days a week !.
I joined the yacht club , and always had a crewing job at the Saturday meetings.
And I just went and introduced myself to the skipper of the biggest , most awesome couta boat in the harbour , and I had another 1-2 sails a week.
The simple fact of the matter is that they are short of crew , I was welcomed with open arms , inexperienced though I was.
I think if you do that , get out on the water , you will have a whole new outlook on your boatbuilding situation.
Thats something you CAN do , that won't cost you anything , and will have a positive result.
Get out on the water.
Do it mate !.
It really is fun !.
Regards Rob J.

[KJL38]

Brian, I used the plans from Guillemot http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/guillemot/node/52/draw It's built to the same size as the drawings. There are some pics in the thread http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=84581

Richard, the height of the ends is mostly an illusion created by the low freeboard in the center. The height above the waterline is only about the same as the bow on PAR's design. Being a symetrical hull the ends also tend to balance each other out. I think the low freeboard is due to the low stability of the hull requiring a low seat and therefore low gunwales to place the rowlocks at the right height.

Giving it some more thought I think the inability to turn upwind was due to the fast outgoing current. The current would have made it difficult to get an adequate grip with the oars in the direction required to turn upwind/downstream but would have made turning downwind/upstream easier. If I'd modified my technique by doing the strokes mostly in the forward quadrant it may have worked better.

If it matters I was using traditional diamond cross section oars.

Kelvin

[Daddles]

Brian, I used the plans from Guillemot http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/guillemot/node/52/draw It's built to the same size as the drawings. There are some pics in the thread http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=84581

The Adirondak Guideboat people must be annoyed with that as they seem to be rather protective of 'their' boat :D

Funny crossection on the thing, I see why you comment on the low initial stability.


Richard, the height of the ends is mostly an illusion created by the low freeboard in the center. The height above the waterline is only about the same as the bow on PAR's design. Being a symetrical hull the ends also tend to balance each other out. I think the low freeboard is due to the low stability of the hull requiring a low seat and therefore low gunwales to place the rowlocks at the right height.

If I remember rightly from something I've seen, you're spot on there. It does give the boat a rather unique look.
The balanced effect of the ends makes sense too ... which probably means it's outrageously wrong :rolleyes:


Giving it some more thought I think the inability to turn upwind was due to the fast outgoing current. The current would have made it difficult to get an adequate grip with the oars in the direction required to turn upwind/downstream but would have made turning downwind/upstream easier. If I'd modified my technique by doing the strokes mostly in the forward quadrant it may have worked better.

If it matters I was using traditional diamond cross section oars.

Kelvin

Perfect reason to make a set of Mik's spoon shaped oars and to get back to us with a report :D

Richard

[Daddles]

I can only offer the sympathy of a fellow sufferer! No income, too many boats, too many ideas, my pals are certain I need treatment!

Brian

The endless hours Hawk and I have spent discussing this very syndrome only in regards to model aeroplanes (and where he has it worse than me ... but only because I was more narrow minded in what I wanted to fly). This is how I know that you can talk yourself in anything ... and why I respect the 'do nothing' technique for handling it.

Richard

[Daddles]

Richard , this thread truely has some very good contributions.
With no real help from me , up till now.
But one thing I'd strongly suggest you do , is get out there and get Sailing !!!,

I've made that resolution every year for the last ten years :C


I resolved to do that about this time last year , when we started our move to the coast , and I finished up sailing 3+days a week !.
I joined the yacht club , and always had a crewing job at the Saturday meetings.
And I just went and introduced myself to the skipper of the biggest , most awesome couta boat in the harbour , and I had another 1-2 sails a week.
The simple fact of the matter is that they are short of crew , I was welcomed with open arms , inexperienced though I was.
I think if you do that , get out on the water , you will have a whole new outlook on your boatbuilding situation.
Thats something you CAN do , that won't cost you anything , and will have a positive result.
Get out on the water.
Do it mate !.
It really is fun !.
Regards Rob J.I know that advice well and it works for a lot of people.
In my case, I'm not a club person and don't have the freedom to commit to every weekend for anything apart from supporting my son's soccer and my daughter's horse riding.

I've actually owned three sailboats ... and still have one of them (Redback).

When I had the Heron, I joined a club and took part in a sailing course - piloted that Heron around a complete racing course (with gybe) without dunking us. Of course, there were the dunkings and the sinking (when I put a foot through the side of the boat) and then there was ...
Nah, you can have racing - I can see the point up to a point but I'm more of recreational type user - same with my cycling. And if you aren't going racing, why all the fascination with a zillion wires to pull and things to adjust?

Prior to that was the Torch which I sailed a few times but as Hawk will attest, she was a bit of a handful and I was trying to teach myself to sail in a very windy bay and she was easily as heavy as Sixpence so dragging her the km down to the beach on the dolly was hard work. Once she came to where I live now, although I repainted her, I was never able to physically get her to the beach for a sail.

And Redback? Too bloody small - I don't fit ... literally.

Maybe it's not surprising I'm not a sailor yet, but as Hawk will attest, I'm not seduced by all the pfaffing about with ropes and stuff that goes on with sailboats, I'm not that keen on sitting on the side of the damned things hanging on for dear life, I'm not ... let's just say that we have conversations where he lists the joys of sailing and I'm there shaking my head :doh:

But I'll keep trying. The Ubeaut Wooden Boat Squadron will hold more sailing days and I will be there with Redback and will attempt to steal some time in a PDR. I've even got the plans for a PDR but unless I can throw one together in a frantic weekend (looks at Alex's thread :;) for zero dollars, probably won't build one just yet.

I do intend to take Redback down to Westlakes, launch her and spend some time just walking all over her and deliberately falling in to see if I can cure some possible phobias and to find out how far I actually can tilt her over. It'd be nice to see if I can work out some way of tacking her without getting jammed between the centre seat and the rear tank (yes, it happens ... regularly, the boat was designed for short people, another thing not mentioned by the designer).

Bet you anything you like I'll spend more time racing around in the Little Black Dog than in Redback though :wink:

Do you want to know the worst of it?
Years and years ago, when I first got into the boat building game, this bloke in Binks kept trying to talk me out of building Redback and to build a GIS instead. I didn't listen of course, yet it would have been a good move then and really, the GIS is the sailboat I should have now ... so I'm building his rowboat instead :cool:

Richard

[dopeydriver]

Richard , I'm not a competitive sailor either , and I refused to compromise my horsemanship with competion too.
But , I joined the yacht club just to get time under sail under my belt , just for the experience.
And , I quickly formed opinions on the styles of boats i liked , and didn't like.
The reason I mentioned the "non club" sailing , is because that is what I prefer , not racing , just sailing out for a while , and back again.
Relaxing , educational , just low key sailing , that costs me nothing.
The pinnacle for me so far was sailing a couple of weeks ago from Port Fairy to Portland , in cold conditiona , and strong , very cold winds , in an open "couta" boat.
Just get her tuned up , and watching the coast slip by.
And looking out for the whales , and watching the 152yo lifeboat gliding along.
How did I get the ride ?.
I knew Garry was coming over , and I asked if I could come along.
Garry made me welcome , and I really enjoyed the experience.
But , would I buy a couta boat ?.
No ! , but I've got what I want , in the Grey Seal Huon Seal.
The couta boat is fun to crew on , but its a real "armstrong" boat , in its traditional form , and too much for me to single hand.
I love 'em , a lot , but I'd never own one.
I found that out by experience , getting out and doing it.
I don't have the answers mate , and only you will really.
I just believe experience is a good teacher , and will help you make informed decisions.
For example , although I've always been a real fan of Iain Oughtred and his boats , I didn't know of the advantages of a boat like Huon Seal , till I'd sailed in her , and could compare her to the T/Sailers and couta boats and keel boats I'd been on.
And I could appreciate her subtle "class".
And I could also see what needs work.
Anyway , if you come east at any time , you can have a sail with me , just a relaxed , down the coast sail on HS , or maybe a play in the harbour on the PDR.
Maybe you could hunt down a sail on a GIS , and if its as good as you believe it will be , then it will get your focus , you have something that will reward your effort , if you do manage to get one.
The "Black Dog" has had a hold on me for many years , sometimes almost a death grip.
Now , because (I believe) I'm out there doing things , he is banished to the kennel.
He is still around , still on the property , but under control.
I'm pleased with myself.
I'm calling the shots , I'm doing what I want to do , and I'm really looking forward to the future , for the first time in many years.
So mate , you are welcome to step on board HS , I'm sure MIK would try his best to get you a sail on a GIS , if it were possible , and hopefully you can go on from there.
I know its a b-------d wondering around , under that black cloud , but surprisingly , it might well be quite easy , with the right approach , to get out from under it , and make things happen for you.
Anyway , I wish you all the best , and my offer stands.
Regards Rob J.

[b.o.a.t.]

G'day Daddles.

A parallel discussion on openboat forum yieded this link
http://jordanboats.co.uk/JB/IainO_Catalogue/Snipefish.pdf

and this one
http://www.rowingforpleasure.blogspot.com/

and this one
http://www.woodenboats.uk.com/rowing.html

There are a number of possibles there, whose sea/surf-worthiness might be easily
improved with a light deck.

Also, have you considered Joel White's "Shearwater" or Oughtred's "Acorn" from
Woodenboat's "Fifty Wooden Boats"? Both primarily designed for oar, with sail
secondary. I suspect, but stand to be corrected, that the wineglass stern would
suffer little of the 'being-pushed-around' antics of a wider, flatter stern. By the time it is
deep enough to be pushed, it has vastly increased its lateral resistance.

cheers
AJ

[Daddles]

AJ, I was going to accuse you of being an evil man until I realised that all those links are for boats with sliding seats. :cool: The argument about sliding seat vs fixed seat is quite hot and at times reaches religious proportions. Fortunately, those supporting fixed seat rowing tend to mirror my attitudes to life and distrust of technical trickery ... they also tend to be of advancing years, obscure bodily proportions and with strangely metallic coloured hair (actually, I made that last bit up bit it sounds good :D).

As for the Acorn, she's a lovely craft and one day I will make one, carefully constructed with no screw holes to fill and beautifully matched timbers. Fortunately, she has a full length keel and is therefore unsuitable for beach work where a flat bottom, even if tiny, is preferred **phew**

I was up at Duck Flats today looking at their MSD Rowing Skiff. It's lovely when you feel all warm and fuzzy upon seeing another example of what you're building :D Once the Little Black Dog is finished, Mik and I are going to go in search of what sort of conditions this design can actually handle - Mik doesn't know this yet so don't tell him :wink:

Richard

[b.o.a.t.]

all sliding seats ??!!! Darn! I didn't notice...

wait a minute, no they aren't. Or at least, they don't have to be.
P-l-e-a-s-e can I have my Evil Man status back ?

What if I chuck in links to glowing testimonies of Bolger's Glocester Gull or Sweet Pea in rough water?
How about Gavin Atkin's "The Dory" (plans are free, and you know you like free stuff..:2tsup:)

How about when you stress-test LBD, let me know, & I'll bring Teal along for the dunking?
(And we won't tell MIK until afterwards :; )

AJ

[Daddles]

(And we won't tell MIK until afterwards :; )

AJ

But what caused that Mik sized splash during the third wave set? :?

Richard

[keyhavenpotter]

Richard, reckon that narrow flat bottom on the Dog might do better than expected.

Interesting that the Snipefish link came across from the Open Boat thread.

You know I mentioned too many boats..........

Well a pal and I, we have two Snipefish in build. I say in build, a very slow occasional meet up to do more. Just about ready to fix the transom to the jig and cut in the chines. Chine bevels are done up to the rear bit, stem all bevelled in. Hoping to make plank shapes soon.

Think of it much more of a river / estuary flatish water boat. A winter boat for exploring Hamble River and the pub at the very top!

Wondering about trying to make it a sliding rigger, rather than sliding seat. Seems to me to make a lot of sense to save moving all that mass backwards and forwards and stop the boat bobbing as well.

This new Clovelly Scull uses a sliding rigger. I tried it at Beale and it was fine, did not seem strange at all.

http://www.clovellysculls.co.uk/gallery-1/2271.jpg

http://www.clovellysculls.co.uk/

demo of sliding rigger here, click on graphics to see comparison

http://www.virusboats.com/virus.php?langue=ang


Brian

[b.o.a.t.]

The sliding outriggers are bleedin' obvious when you think about it !!
Thanks for the link Brian. Other than the low sides, the appearance of its front half
has much in common with a certain 15' prototype in your posession... Have you been
out for a spin under oars yet?
cheers
AJ

[b.o.a.t.]

But what caused that Mik sized splash during the third wave set? :?

Richard


Wasn't me...

Or the dog.

Where's the esky ? :?

[Boatmik]

hmmm .... must get a broad brimmed sailors hat for my trip.

(splashing ... splashing down ... triggered me)

I used to use white broad brimmed canvas hats for working on the waterfront and also for racing. My mother called them disgusting because they had paint spots and vaguely smelled like barnacles. My friends would tease me too. "You and your ugly hats"

One week on my sharpie on the harbour my hat blew off during a race. It was a race ... so hat was sacrificed.

One of my friends sailing in a different part of the harbour a week later ... saw something in the water.

"Hey, that's Storer's hat" and pulled it out as they sailed past.

Gave it back to me the following week.

MIK

[keyhavenpotter]

Guess who is third in the boat, found the guarantee the other day clearing out a drawer, 9 years old and still going strong

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_a6mAYyc8sBI/SpmDrkH039I/AAAAAAAAM6w/PrqUxi9Cv20/s400/DSCF2981.JPG

http://rowingforpleasure.blogspot.com/2009/08/pirates-on-hamble.html

Brian

[keyhavenpotter]

After the earlier super post on Adirondack Guideboats, I am left wondering. Just why do they captivate me so??? Not just the boat, the easy rolling action rowing them?

YouTube - Rowing Adirondack Guideboats from Dan Gallagher
YouTube - The Adirondack Guideboat's first day on Lake Pond d Orielle

Brian

[jmk89]

Tilley hat. Brian? If so, I'm another user...

I love the story of the zookeeper's Tilley hat that was eaten by an elephant, was passed by the elephant and then, after washing, resumed duty on the zookee[er's noggin!

[Daddles]

Man, there's a lot to look at there ... which I won't be doing now because I'm going to be responsible and tidy the house, then clean the house, then do some washing, then finish sanding the Little Black Dog, then get in an hour's formation flying with the herd of pigs :rolleyes:

Seriously, I'll have to leave this lot to later dammit :(

Richard

[Daddles]

Watching video 2 of the Clovelly, I note that it rows with the bow in the water, thus slicing through the waves. In video 1, he's riding across the chop and the bow's constantly coming out of the water.

Translating that to the Little Black Dog, we'll be able to do the bow slicing through the water routine quite well. However, when chop forces the bow out of the water, the flat bottom means that the re-entry won't be as nice as the curved hull of the Clovelly. That right Mik?

As for that sliding oar gizmo, man that looks weird. Sorry, in my world, reducing moving/complicated parts is a good thing.

Richard

[Daddles]

Another interesting thing to note is that the old bloke (who's my sort of proportions) rowing the Adirondak Guideboat is bending at the waist far more than the bloke in the Clovelly. Difference in rowing styles or a difference caused by the equiptment?

And why this mania on rowing sites with 'fitness' and 'training' - it's like the cycling world where you've got to be out there trying to become world champion. What's wrong with rowing for no other reason than you LIKE IT! [/grump]

Richard

[Daddles]

Guess who is third in the boat, found the guarantee the other day clearing out a drawer, 9 years old and still going strong

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_a6mAYyc8sBI/SpmDrkH039I/AAAAAAAAM6w/PrqUxi9Cv20/s400/DSCF2981.JPG

http://rowingforpleasure.blogspot.com/2009/08/pirates-on-hamble.html

Brian

I read that the other day :D

So, you didn't win and you didn't come last but no other explanation is necessary ... so what really happened? Did the barmaid get appropriate counselling?

Richard

[keyhavenpotter]

A Difference in rowing styles or a difference caused by the equiptment?Richard

Absolutely! Bend your back or bend your legs! Just see how the Cornish ladies put their backs into it.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_a6mAYyc8sBI/So6SBegqAeI/AAAAAAAAMRo/FMgQMMBv8o4/s400/Close_up_of_rower_01.jpg

Those Cornish Skiffs - Guideboat.. Skiff...Guideboat.....Skiff

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2508/3858068213_6da7bd2524.jpg

Brian

[keyhavenpotter]

... so what really happened? Did the barmaid get appropriate counselling? Richard

What with numerous pirate wenches of the most fulsome beauty and every young pirate wench choosing to wear fishnet tights with holes ripped in them....... I know who needed counselling!

Chris took many pictures but much silver would have to cross his palms!

Brian

[PAR]

Richard, this is a stretched and slightly altered version of the previous RYD-12.6. It's designation is RYD-14.9 and has a length short enough to permit scarfed planks (just barely). She wouldn't make a good sailor, but would row very well.

Note the bottom panel is a half a meter aft of the stem and stern. This will keep the flat bottom from pounding in a chop or surf. Her ends are fine and V'd, but has sufficient buoyancy to lift to seas quickly. Her under water sections show a slight hollow at the ends, but only near the LWL. The middle section drawing shows half as many strakes (I left just the important ones). This would be a taped seam version of the same shape. You lose a touch of displacement and gain a little weight, but the method is easier to many folks. Freeboard is modest and could be raised if desired, though if it was me, I'd elect to leave the freeboard as is and use decks, accepting the trade off between rowing into a wind with higher freeboard or some spray. The transom is for a sweep, but could be a true double ender and no, the ends of the boat aren't identical in section. They're fairly close, but not quite, having a tad more volume aft of midship to accommodate a well fed rower.

[m2c1Iw]

Mm...I like that and would leave the transom as drawn.

Ah so many boats, so little time.

BTW Richard all this talk about rowing I think you are warming us up to a UWBS-SA challenge something like this (http://www.scotfishmuseum.org/pdf-boat/scr-prospectus.pdf) maybe. May have been posted earlier not sure but an interesting concept, guess for around here we would need to find some old wooden surf boats.:rolleyes:

Mike

[Daddles]

That does indeed look very nice. She'd have to be built lapstrake, all those lovely planks :D

As for bizare feats, one does find oneself thinking about the Pt Vincent to Stansbury regatta :C (open water, the yachts usually take a few hours to do it)

Richard

[keyhavenpotter]

Couple of questions on the 14.9.

At 42" beam she will car top. Great to be able to avoid trailers etc.

Beam is similar to a Guideboat. So, do you row with crossed oars, as per Guideboat ?

Would the plans come with developed plank shapes for glued clinker? For the fewer panel S&G?

Thanks, Brian

[PAR]

Assuming a 9 mm for the bottom, with the rest in 6 mm, 1x2 inwales, thwart cleats, etc., plus a 12 mm thwart or two and canvas deck at both ends. You could bring in this hull in at around 50 pounds (110 kilo?) using Okoume, with well sorted joints and frugal epoxy use. Meranti would be in the 132 kilo (60 pound) range. If you used a 4mm decking at each end, say about a meter long, then it would add about 22 kilo (10 pounds) more to the boat. This would include a light beam or two for the deck to land on.

Rowing style would be a owner preference, though I suspect larger users will need to cross.


The original plans for this boat were a glued lap build. I tossed the taped seam in, to cut 4 strakes off the boat, while still offering a similar boat. At present I don't have intentions for this as a taped seam build, figuring it's a fairly easy conversion from the offsets, by a reasonable builder.

I generally don't offer plans with developed shapes. I've found they aren't especially accurate and that lining off is the only way to get truly fair plank runs.

Now, I'm sure a bunch of you are saying to yourself, how can computer generated images be that inaccurate. They're not, but when you transfer measurements to the station molds and planking stock, slight errors creep in and the parts become "application specific" or "unique", meaning they have enough discrepancies that you should line off the planks with a batten if you want smooth runs.

[keyhavenpotter]

Is that 50 lbs ( 22 kg) or 50kg (110 lbs). 6mm bottom and 4mm sides would be much easier to lift only a car top? Not tough enough?

Brian

[keyhavenpotter]

when you transfer measurements to the station molds and planking stock, slight errors creep in and the parts become "application specific" or "unique", meaning they have enough discrepancies that you should line off the planks with a batten if you want smooth runs.


If it was agreed we were going from computer drawing to computer cnc cutting, would you consider supplying the files, plank shapes and all?

It's just I have a very experienced boat cutting CNC man available and I would like to try a project out with him. Are we talking about only 4 sheets, possibly 6?

Brian

[keyhavenpotter]

I think you are warming us up to a UWBS-SA challenge something like this (http://www.scotfishmuseum.org/pdf-boat/scr-prospectus.pdf) maybe. May have been posted earlier not sure but an interesting concept, guess for around here we would need to find some old wooden surf boats.:rolleyes:

Mike

Gavin Atkin has just put up some pictures of the model of the St. Ayles Skiff. very lovely.

http://intheboatshed.net/2009/08/28/alec-jordans-beautiful-model-of-iain-oughtreds-new-scottish-rowing-skiff/

http://intheboatshed.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/DSC_3338.JPG

Brian

[keyhavenpotter]

I put surf rowing into Google and this came up! Can see why the rear sweep is so important

YouTube - surf boat rowing

Brian

[m2c1Iw]

I've always thought one needs to be a little crazy to enjoy rowing these guys confirm the thinking, gutsy stuff eh. :2tsup:

[PAR]

Yep, my math is pretty bad at this time of the day. 50 pounds would be a light version of this boat. So anywhere between 22 and 44 kilos, depending on how heavy you made her, species used, decking, thwarts, etc.

6 mm bottom and 4 mm strakes would be okay, but a delicate boat, plus there'd be a little longitudinal flexing and twisting in some conditions.

CNC files are difficult to arrange and not cost effective on low cost plans. There would have to be a fair bit of interest in this hull, to warrant setting up a cut file for CNC.

I haven't done a nesting file on her, but 4 to 6 sounds reasonable with a fair bit of waste.

[keyhavenpotter]

Thanks PAR. Sorry if I am posting too much Richard. Just that a beach launching coastal rowing boat that sits on the width space on my roofrack is a rare thing.

I have just been down to the dinghy park after very heavy wind and rain last night and one cover had blow off (temporary one on the Skiff) and the other water logged and stretched. Would really like to just get on the water from home, car top using my Kari-Tek rack. This 14.9 is beginning to fit the bill somewhat.

http://www.kari-tek.co.uk/ELRRIntroMulti.html

In my impoverished future I will have to cut costs especially dinghy park costs, club fees, insurance demanded for racing etc. Will not miss it really. Much happier in the old days windsurfing out of the car, no costs, no "club" hassle.

So, I was wondering what a 42" rowing boat might look like in the flesh. Had a search round and found that the CLC Chester Yawl is very close on length and 42" wide. Just imagine two pointy ends instead of the wineglass transom.

http://www.clcboats.com/scripts/phpThumb/phpThumb.php?src=/images/photos/boats/chesteryawl/CHESTER_on_water_74.jpg&w=580

PAR, I will contact the guy I know who quoted me very reasonable programming costs and per sheet cutting and see how he feels about something like the 14.9. To save buying a whole sheet for the centre plank, could it be doubled up on the hull planks?

Or, after my recent prototyping problems wait till Richard has built one!!!

Brian

[Daddles]

Brian, take it easy with this mania for CNC cutting, all it does is produce pieces cut to predetermined numbers ... and you have to hope you got the numbers right.

I'll accept that lofting a boat is scary at first but quite doable by the novice. Maybe Paul might consider providing a set of coordinates for the molds (paper patterns being troublesome because the paper moves with humidity). Once you've got your molds however, you are far better off making patterns from your actual boat and cutting your planks to those patterns. In this way, each new plank adjusts for the idiosyncracies of the previous plank and you have a chance to sort out any hard spots or kinks as you go, you can't do that with a precut kit.

Nor are you saving much time with your kit - you can make a pattern for the next plank, cut and fair a pair of planks (always work in pairs) and glue them in place in a few hours. Sure, a kit means you don't have to do all that, but you still have to wait till the next day for the epoxy to set.

Spiling planks is easy. Sure, a lot of amateur boat builders and, sadly enough, a lot of people selling their own patented methods make spiling seem complicated and difficult, but that's just nonsense and complexity for complexity's sake. Making a pattern for a plank is simple and the best way of making sure the plank fits YOUR boat.

Richard

[keyhavenpotter]

I am sure your correct Richard, it's just that I can picture the hull with horrible wavy lines and the whole thing coming out a mess! Doing the Snipefish with a pal is helping a lot. The Snipefish is a two plank single chine stringer design so just about as simple as possible. Still it's taking us ages as we learn so slowly.

As a past Production Manager, good tooling was the secret of repeatable quality production, so I just come from that viewpoint. Just reading the "Stitch and Glue Boatbuilding" book by the guy who started CLC. Now realise how their LapStitch works, with the upper panel sitting into the rebated end of the panel below, thus using less tape and gaining the clinker look.

I would also like to put a small volume rowing boat such as this into small scale "production". It's just something I seem to want to do, daft really. You can sense that recreational rowing could take off, and for England that has to be coastal/ estuary. Scotland now has river access for all, something we are denied.

Don't mean to divert things - 14.9 is looking very good.

Brian

[Daddles]

You're not diverting things Brian, this is useful.

Stitch and glue is a different animal to lapstrake - there the shape of the panel is critical to the final result and it's a good use for CNC.

Sorry, Lapstitch seems to me just a way of making lapstrake complicated. It introduces processes and requirements that are un-necessary.

Pure lapstrake does not rely on 'accurately' cut pieces. In many ways, it demostrates one of the of the myths about accuracy ie, accuracy is only about reproducing numbers. CNC is very good at reproducing numbers, but how good are those numbers in the first place? Just taking them off a computer model isn't always good enough.

In the case of Paul's double ender, the 'numbers' would be good enough to get the shape of the molds (I think). Cutting the molds probably is an area where a CNC cutter might be useful. However, once you have a strong back set up with a line of molds bolted in place, you need to determine where the plank lines run. Far and away the most accurate tool we have for doing this is the human eyeball aided by a batten. In fact, that same eyeball combined with battens is the best tool for ensuring that your molds are accurate and for making them so if they aren't. We can see deviations that just aren't apparent when looking at a computer model. I'm sure there are programs that can smooth all this stuff out for us but you don't need that stuff, you've got your eyeball. Even CNC cutting will have sufficient errors to create wiggles in the lines - you'll still need your batten and eyeball to fine tune things ... if you bother that is (and I suspect most kit builders won't).

Once you've determined the plank lines, ie, where they run along the molds, the rest is easy. The planks overlap each other so there is no need for super precise edges. However, if one plank goes on slighly wrong, and the twists mean that they always need massaging into place (it's not like fitting two dimensional pieces together) the shape of the next plank will be affected. The overlap means that this isn't critical but if you're working with a precut piece of timber, you're stuck with what the original numbers give you. By taking a pattern from the boat, you get the opportunity to ensure that the new plank gives the fairest fit to the boat and again, this is done by eye. How do you get that pattern? Whack a lump of cheap ply on the boat and draw around the edge of the existing plank and a batten on the other side of the new one with a pencil - there's not much to it.

CNC cutting is a great way of producing kits - once the original set of numbers has been created, you can bang the things out without the hinderance of human handling. It's a great production process, but all it's doing is automating a process to produce a set of average fitting parts. Doing it by hand allows you to produce the best fitting parts ... and also to make a massive cock of the whole thing.

Lapstrake seems scary until you've done it ... or it should be. Unfortunately, many amateurs and quite a few people promoting their own patented systems (such as lapstitch) turn it into a complicated mess. The reality is that it's a very simple method and to be honest, no harder than stitch and glue or even chine log building, it's just different with a few more planks to put in (you get bored after the fourth plank).

Richard

[PAR]

Richard has it about right. CNC is wonderful, particularly if you need several of the same thing. Yes, I provide mold dimensions with the plans set. Even with perfectly CNC cut molds and planks, you'll have alignment and other issues that will toss off the plank runs. Having just one mold a fraction off it's line on the strong back or maybe a slight bit off plumb, can be enough to cause a hump or hollow to appear in the plank runs when you start hanging lumber. So much for machine precision when a human erects the molds.


Lining off isn't difficult and it's fairly enjoyable. The same is true of making station molds. These things seem difficult, but once you've actually tried it, you wonder what the fuss was all about.

The same is true of lap strake building. It has a mystery and air of difficulty about it, but really it's not hard. You just have to get you head around the processes. Once you've hung a plank or two, the mystery goes away and with glued lap, much of the difficulty does too.

Back to CNC work, most of the time, it's rare that the first run comes off with perfect parts. There's a glitch or two, maybe in the cut file, maybe in the original work, but in either case you've got some useless molds. This is material and machine time someone has to buy, just to test the process. Eventually you end up with a perfect set of parts from a refined cut file, now what? You can hope that someone will want to buy those pieces, but how often does that happen? In any case, I'll do CNC files for custom design work if requested, but unless there's a batch of clients beating on the door for a particular boat, I'm not in a hurry to add this feature to my stock designs.

A final note about machine cut pieces would be, there's a great deal of satisfaction we get, convincing a bit of lumber to be a boat part. The tactile sensations of finding imperfections with your fingers, not your eyes, electing to skip a batten's "tick" mark or two, so it lies fair and sweet, even though the offsets say something else, but your eye's know better. Many things about boat building haven't as much to do with machine cut precision as they do tempting the senses of a builder's sole. I'd rather not have a cut file rob me of this enjoyment, even if it means I'll cuss over the blade being on the wrong side of the line every so often.

[keyhavenpotter]

Son thinks it's somewhat like the Herreshoff Rowboat in Gardner's book, plank keel and all

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.geoffmckonlyboatbuilding.com/Projects/Projects%2520Images/herreshoffrowboat.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.geoffmckonlyboatbuilding.com/Projects/Projects.html&usg=__cGWVYz1bnB6EUIHruDnBe5XO1Qg=&h=145&w=216&sz=39&hl=en&start=7&um=1&tbnid=P33RAlLpqYEUFM:&tbnh=72&tbnw=107&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dherreshoff%2Browboat%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1

http://www.geoffmckonlyboatbuilding.com/Projects/L%20Francis%20Herreshoff%20Rowboat%20Construction/album/slides/HR169.JPG

Gardner version

http://www.stewartriver.com/images/Herreshoff-2.jpg
http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.stewartriver.com/images/Herreshoff-3_small.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.stewartriver.com/rowboats.html&usg=__GdPtP7ggcAPK-Ibe_wsOba2Euc8=&h=159&w=216&sz=11&hl=en&start=11&um=1&tbnid=ulUWD4IpXiFxUM:&tbnh=79&tbnw=107&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dherreshoff%2Browboat%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG%26um%3D1


Brian

[keyhavenpotter]

Richard and PAR, thanks for your good advice, makes a lot of sense. Lets not run before walking.

As a kid I guess I made up Airfix models, not planes from solid balsa. Lots of people must enjoy making up kits boats as well, CLC and Pygmy must prove something.

It is nice to know though, that, well you know, just if......

Brian

[Daddles]

As a kid I guess I made up Airfix models,

Then you'll understand all about bits that should fit together but don't quite :wink:

I've been a model maker all my life and kits have always been the bane of my life thanks to poor cutting of the parts (and daft design but that's not a problem here is it Paul :rolleyes:). CNC promises that such problems shouldn't exist but ...

Kits are for people who've chosen not to cut the pieces. I haven't built a kit boat, nor do I have any interest in doing so, but I have build kits of model aeroplanes and you know something, they rarely made any real difference to the overall build time. Oh sure, if you're being paid by the hour there's a difference, but if you're working on amateur's time using the sort of time scale that says "I started in May and finished a year after I hoped to", kits don't actually do much.

Besides, building the hull is such a small part of the overall build process, even in this simple rowboat.

And you're right, Paul's 14.9 does look like Herreshoft's rowboat :D

Richard

[PAR]

14.9 and the Herreshoff have a few things in common, the most obvious are the shape of the sheer and rocker. The keel plank on 14.9 is wider and the actual beam is comparatively narrower, as I included the rub rails, the planking is about 40". Freeboard is about 19" at the bow, which is proportionally taller for the longer Herreshoff and the ends are fuller above the water line.

The biggest differences are weight and volume distribution. A very lightly built Herreshoff with 3/8" solid lumber planking and dainty frames would be in the 150 pounds range, though most would be around 170 pounds. This is a pretty heavy boat to car top.

The Gardner/Herrsehoff rowboat is heavier still, because he did two things to the Herreshoff model. He made the keel plank wider (22") and added a lot of volume in the forward sections, above the LWL. He also raised the sheer a little too.

If the Herreshoff used softwood laminated ribs she would be a fair bit lighter. The stems could be built lighter too.

Thee is no discounting the beauty of both the Herreshoff and Gardner boats. I've seen them built with as few as 5 planks (typically the Gardner) and as many as 8 per side. 7 seems about right for the longer Gardner, I've used 6 on RYD-14.9, though she'd look nice with 7 too.

Side by side, you'll see differences between all three boats. The most obvious is 14.9 will be the smallest. She'll be "stiffer" then the Herreshoff underway, but not as stiff as the Gardner. The Gardner will look much fuller in the ends at the sheer. 14.9 will be the lightest and look noticeable leaner then the Gardner, but maybe not as much as the forefoot on the Herreshoff. I suspect the RYD-14.9 will be slightly more maneuverable, but not as much as say a narrow bottom guide boat of similar proportions.

[Daddles]

You know Paul, that's the sort of information a buyer of your plans would really appreciate. It's hard for most of us to appreciate the finer differences and to have them explained like that makes the build just that little bit more special.

Richard

[keyhavenpotter]

Thanks PAR for that insight. Richard, your original post really seems to have come up trumps, as we say.

40" beam is the same as the Solway Dory sailing canoe I had. They have a rowing system for their canoes as well.

Thought you might enjoy seeing their new web site with super video of their Shearwater (16' x 40") fast reaching. Note the use of outriggers which are clear of the water most of the time. They use these on large stretches of open water and on the sea.

http://www.solwaydory.co.uk/videos/10

Brian

[KJL38]

Brian, with the 14.9 I think you could avoid rowing cross oared with 8ft oars and some spacers on the rowlocks.

One thing about cartopping the guideboat, I carry it on saddles right way up as when inverted the ends hang down in front of the windscreen. This may not be a problem with the 14.9, how would you mount it on the Karitek racks?

Brian, was it you who asked about guideboat plans? This book http://michneboat.com/ has an appendix with very detailed plans and offsets of a Grant guideboat and there are less detailed drawings and offsets of a Rushton Saranac Laker guideboat in the appendix of this book http://openlibrary.org/b/OL8048942M/Rushton-and-His-Times-in-American-Canoeing . There is an analysis of the two designs at http://www.guideboat.ca/16ft_guideboat.html which also sells plans for a simplified S&G version.

Kelvin

[keyhavenpotter]

There is an article on using the Kari-Tek here

http://ukhbbr.wordpress.com/how-to-do-it/cartopping-home-built-boats/

It uses the standard rack plus 4 small mounts which bolt to the rack and are designed to carry an inverted canoe. Cannot quite see them on the web site though.

Thanks Kelvin for the links.

Brian

[PAR]

RYD-14.9 has much less sweep in the sheer then a typical guide boat, so I think upside down car topping would be possible, more so if the rack had some height off the roof.

I think guide boats would be a good choice, if alterations where made, to address the needs of an open water craft. RYD-14.9 carries a lower prismatic coefficient then the two guide boats in that analysis article. Those (newer designs) carried too much in my opinion, for the S/L they'll be expected to propel at. Even with a small outboard, you'd be hard pressed to take advantage of these high Cp's, so you're just creating drag, which he apparently confirms at the end of the article, finding his studies brought him full circle back to antique design formats. 14.9 is in the .56 range and just about right for a displacement mode craft with the potential to slip past the hull speed limits every so often, like down the face of a wave or with an especially powerful stroke.

[keyhavenpotter]

Wondering about "open" verses "tanked"

An open hull in 6mm, 9mm bottom would weigh a certain figure and would be easy to handle when lifting onto and off car roofs. Something like the canoe floatation bags front and rear for safety?

With a deck and bulkhead at both ends, say station 4 and 12, the stiffer configuration might lead to thinner ply giving the same stiffness and about the same weight? Perhaps 4mm 5 ply and doubled to 8mm bottom?

What do you reckon? Nicer open, lighter, less work, use bags when needed?

Almost afraid to ask the next one. The Jersey Skiff uses scuppers at floor level. Could 14.9 self drain? Even frightens me to ask.

Seat will be above the waterline I guess. Can the heels also be above the waterline, or perhaps indented heel cups as I once saw on a French Raid boat. Self draining, also means can be left without needing a cover, if painted with two pack. Just leave on the beach ready to use! I am having to mop out the Skerrieskiff everyday we having so much rain at the moment.

So two variants? Or not worth it? One simple open boat, bags used for floatation. Second one with "very safe in waves" configuration, decked fore and aft, and self draining scuppered floor. Sort of singlehanded Jersey Skiff.

Apologies if going too far.

Brian

[PAR]

Speculation on design considerations can never go too far. How would you get "outside the box" if you didn't?

I think the option of deck types, bags, chambers, etc can be left to the builder. I'm not a chamber person, nor do I think bags are particularly useful. If this boat was completely filled to the rails, it'll still be floating. It could be rolled, partly emptied and boarded, maybe pushed to shore, whatever, but I think planning for extremely rare events on protected waters or near shore craft is "burdening" a design, which doesn't make a lot of sense to me on a weight sensitive boat. A canvas deck will keep the boat fairly dry. Something more substantial will make the boat heavier, decreasing it's car topping potential. If the car topping desire came of the list, then more substantial decks would be reasonable.


I don't see why you couldn't install a bilge drain. It would be pretty foolish to store the boat right side up without one I'd think.

Your heels will probably be below the LWL, unless you're a paraplegic strapped into her. Her thwart would have to be well above the LWL, she's no shell.


These conflicts are the very reason I leave these sort of things to the builder, as they are the one who will best know how the boat will be used. My plans usually include options for several elements of the design. Sheathing schedules, material deviations, scantlings changes or adjustments, different configurations, etc. I usual cover most of the obvious possibilities. I do this to keep the phone calls down.

I got a call from Tom this morning. He's building a gaff sloop of mine (RYD-14.11) and wanted to know more about the plywood keel option I described in the scantling list. The regular strip plank build has a built up deadwood assembly of 1x6's, but a plywood option is mentioned. It's about the same amount of work, but uses more epoxy and has some complicated cutting. The advantage is it's lighter, the disadvantage (there's always a trade off) is it has a higher "goo factor". So, he called and wanted a better understanding, so he can make a informed decision.

Without this option on the plans, I'd get calls like"Hay man, how you doing, can I substitute the deadwood assembly for a plywood box sort of thing and how thick should the plywood be, etc." I've found if you give them options, it keeps them happy and they also learn the design isn't as stiff as my ex-wife's heart, but has some flexibility.

[dopeydriver]

I had a very unfortunate experience a couple of days ago , that brought me "back to earth" , with a thump.
I finally got my swing mooring in Portland Harbour for HS , but its a fair way out.
I took my little tender down , to go and check out the mooring , and found a fairly typical strong offshore wind.
Getting out was easy , but I thought I'd better check on my ability to row against that wind fairly early , and lucky I did , because although I had the strength , no problems , my arthritic wrists were screaming in protest , and my hands started to lock up.
I made it back , just , but I'd only got a 1/3 of the way out !.
Damn !.
I guess I'm looking for a motor of some sort now !.
Rob J.

[KJL38]

Brian, I think open v tanked comes down to intended use. Is it likely to end up in breaking surf? If yes go tanked, if not go open with perhaps small tanks each end. Also do you need to carry passengers or cargo?

[b.o.a.t.]

"Tanked" has a quite different meaning in some jurisdictions... :D

I can think off no good reason -not- to have in-built buoyancy in a boat.
Even the best prepared & experienced people have bad things happen to them, even if
they themselves are not the cause.
Rather like wearing seatbelts really. You can be just as readily cleaned up by a drunk
"popping around to the shops" as on the Big Trip.

As MIKs designs shown, they can add much rigidity without adding weight if designed
into the structure. monocoque vs cab/chassis.

that's my 2.2c worth anyway.
cheers
AJ

[Daddles]

As MIKs designs shown, they can add much rigidity without adding weight if designed into the structure. monocoque vs cab/chassis.

Mik's style of boat need something like a tank to give them the rigidity, hence the extra knees needed in that non-tanked rowing skiff built at Duck Flats. A glued lapstrake boat gains that rigidity by the overlocking planks being glued together ... a non-glued lapstrake (the old clinker boats) is very flexible because the boards can slide over each other.

Richard

[keyhavenpotter]

Just been out in the Skerrieskiff.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3427/3890298726_1c414866a9.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3443/3890299542_e1b44b45a0.jpg

Tried sailing her in 10 to 14 knots, somewhat gusty and variable, built to 20 knots after I came in I am glad to say.

Found her very much a rowing boat with a rig. Rather wobbly and not enjoyable as a sailing boat. Pretty quick and better when properly on the wind so I could sit against the side of the hull. Any lull and immediate movement inboard needed. I have found this before with rowing hulls with rigs.

On a broad reach, kneeling inboard seemed the only position. Really uncomfortable. I have found similar "no allowance" for the sailor with Iain O's boats before. Almost as if he designs for beauty but bugger the sailor.

Wind so gusty and boat so unstable went back in. It may have been my simple sail, centre of effort much more stable in the battened version.

Took rig out and went rowing. Much nicer. 100% more comfortable. She's a very nice row boat. Lots of compliments how nice she looks. Rowed about half way out to Hurst Castle and back, very pleasant. Not confident yet in my back after a recent re-injury. Want to row to strengthen it, but don't want to damage it either. Last weeks regatta rowing did seem to straighten things up a bit.

Summary - lovely rowboat not a sailing boat. Would be super for a couple rowing with kids in each end. The only design that I have experience of which seems to manage both is the Oughtred Tammie Norrie, a really sweet boat my son owns.

I have sailed Iain O's Elf in light winds and liked her a lot, so perhaps a softer steadier wind might have been better. The Scows were having their usual great time.

For me personally for rowing, I think I would prefer a lighter boat, less effort. Less strain on my back whilst I strengthen it. Yes, the Guideboat / 14.9 style.

Brian

[keyhavenpotter]

A glued lapstrake boat gains that rigidity by the overlocking planks being glued together ...
Richard

I had an Oughtred MacGregor sailing canoe for a while, another long lean machine. Open decked, no bulkheads.

Watching the hull rack as load came on the sail was interesting indeed. Surprising amount of twist induced. Rowboat does not have that racking force but certainly is stiffer with decks and bulkheads.

I was hoping perhaps the 14.9 might have two versions. Open with 6mm and 9mm bottom, and decked with thinner ply but same weight overall.

For use as described in first post for launching through waves, decked with bulkheads would seem to me to be the choice. An open boat full of water in the shore break would be very heavy indeed, I would have thought.

Brian

[b.o.a.t.]

G'day Brian
Your description of Skerrie Skiff's character rather accurately matches my Teal.
In fact, the only significant difference is that Teal (as I built her) is really only good for
odd numbers of occupants. The one time I've had a single passenger aboard rowing, it
worked out easiest & tidiest to turn around & row the boat stern first.

The other significant difference is looks, although I think Teal is about the nicest
possible out of two sheets of ply.

cheers
AJ

[b.o.a.t.]

Mik's style of boat need something like a tank to give them the rigidity, hence the extra knees needed in that non-tanked rowing skiff built at Duck Flats. A glued lapstrake boat gains that rigidity by the overlocking planks being glued together ... a non-glued lapstrake (the old clinker boats) is very flexible because the boards can slide over each other.

Richard


G'day Daddles
My point was more that buoyancy tanks need not be a significant weight penalty,
even on the simplest & lightest structures. Therefore there is little or no reason not
to incorporate them into a build, except perhaps on ultra-light competition craft.

Even so, I'd wager that light tanks would stiffen even an open glued lapstrake boat
appreciably, unless it were already carrying extra weight as bracing. Frames &
chunky spaced gunn'ls aren't just there for decoration!

cheers
AJ

[Boatmik]

Howdy Brian,

Boxed in seats particularly in the ends (or corners of a non double ender) are a general panacea against twisting. Make a huge difference. Some like the traditional looking seats though.

We have one tram line here that goes out to Glenelg by the sea. The old wooden trams have been mostly phased out (a year or two ago) but still do some runs on weekends and holidays.

One of the joys is to sit up one end. Adelaide is very flat but when they come down the one hill at high speed you can see the front of the car laying over at about 5 degrees compared to where you are sitting. All the windows become visibly trapezoidal too. They don't break because they are a very loose sliding fit - so the rattling is tremendous.

Gives one as sense of the perils of land transport as earlier bods must have felt them. All at about 60kph!

Best ride in Adelaide!!!

The modern trams with glued in glass and monocoque construction are boringly rigid.

I think this goes a long way toward explaining the continued interest in sailing craft.

MIK

[keyhavenpotter]

It seems that PAR has rightly stated his design will be 6mm and 9mm bottom and open, and he's the designer. Also that we can make it thinner if we wish to risk racking and add tanks if we wish. So I guess subject covered!

I am wondering about beach "storage" for a 6mm, 9mm version.

I am lucky in living on a cliff top, with a broad shingle beach at it's base. Some of the best fishing in the UK is off the Needles (western corner of the Isle of Wight) which I look over. So how great would it be to store the boat actually on the shingle, slide her into the water and go fishing! I feel sure that some local council law will prevent it somehow, but it might be fun finding out. Surely for thousands of years men have done just the same. There is even a Bronze age settlement just a few miles down the coast at Hengistbury Head.

The fishermen of British Columbia used a similar boat for longlining and hand trolling. This modern version is quite similar to 14.9. It also has a reputation for being pretty quick.

http://westlakeboats.ca/ and click on Brightsides.

http://westlakeboats.ca/plans/BrightsidesLoRez.jpg

Brian

[KJL38]

Hi PAR, is the .56 Cp for the 14.9 with one person on board or fully laden?

Kelvin

[PAR]

No, the numbers were generated at the drawn displacement, which is 3" of draft and somewhere in the 200 pounds range. Naturally, her Cp will rise the deeper she sinks to a certain point. Except for racing craft, the prismatic coefficient being much higher then a rower's abilities (S/L of 1.5 or less) is meaningless and in fact is more wetted surface to haul around, for no particularly good reason. In this format, the Cp is more a gauge of how fine the ends of the boat are.

[keyhavenpotter]

Great picture of one of the handliners with small sail set in rough conditions on the 2009 Shipyard School Race.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3467/3796638743_ce08b45077.jpg

and a bit calmer here

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2626/3786643100_9b20605f70.jpg

Brian

[CCBB]

Hey I've been missing out! This is my favorite topic of all time! I gotta get outta of the Storer sub forum more often!

Daddes, I read you initial post and admittedly speed read through most of the rest, Where are you at in your thinking?

I steered Daddles away from Drake because of the beaching issue, wanting to me able to man handle the boat on the beach and wanting it to sit upright. Drake's V-shape makes beaching different b/c there is no plank keel to sit on and Drake isn't something to man handle. She is related to Gartsides boats in many ways, but narrower on the beam which MIK mentions as important for rough water rowing.

I am tempted to shorted Drake, cut the V off slightly enough to make a plank keel, and really use light timbers and you'd be able to go anywhere. I've done some long days in Drake now, and it is some of the finest days on the water I have ever had. Below are a couple pictures. A recent 19 mile row was very hard into a 15 kt wind with 2 foot whitecapping seas. I was whipped. I pulled into a lee and grabbed a mooring which I hook over the norwegian horn in the bow and I pull out my thwart and take a nap on the floorboards. That row I slept an hour! I felt ready to go the rest of the way. I sailed a little, but mostly rowed due to wind direction being on the nose. Drake is a dream to row.

I have rowed the Herreshoff and will say it is the fastest I have gone in a fixed seat rowboat. Very quick. But I'd rather be in Drake for really open water. Still the H could to it and it's flat bottom is beach friendly, however, it isn't the most man handleable. I'm not sure what Daddles needs to do with the boat. If he wants to hand carry solo, the only way that is going to happen is with a guideboat built very, very light, which was the point with all the guideboats, to be portaged.

Clint

[narcistictrash]

Hi all,

I built a Herreshoff rowboat out of Gardner's "Building classic Small Craft" however slightly modified it to an overall length of 15 feet and went for the lightest possible construction using 6mm gaboon for the bottom and 4mm for the sides with WRC gunwhales, seat and trim and 3 midhsip frames plus a couble of athwartship stiffeners to stop sticking my foot through the bottom.

I built a pair of spoons but offhand dont know their lengths.

It rowed beautifully the only minor issue was that it had slightly disproportionate rocker, having been shortened from 17 feet. I played with a masters design coz im stupid and wanted something more easily car toppable, which I achieved. It is light but still as bulky as id like to go for regular manhandling. Weights overall would not be much over 20kg. I was a nut about keeping it light.

Having more rocker in proportion to its length made me think a small skeg might help as it is a definate one person only boat (therefore wont be rowed 'backwards' as the original was intended when going double).

I havnt got any pics to show at the moment....oh and as a final comment if lightweight for car topping and carrying aline wasnt highest on the list id go for 6mm topsides and 9mm botton.

I did love the feeling though, that it almost wanted to plane pulling hard ont he oars or down a wave although of course it wasnt.

Regarding the lenght I dont think I lost much by shortening it due to its weight but I should have flattened the rocker out as well.

And finally the versoin I built was the original (not the slightly Gardner mod) in Building Classic Small Craft.

Mike

[keyhavenpotter]

I am tempted to shorted Drake, cut the V off slightly enough to make a plank keel, and really use light timbers and you'd be able to go anywhere.....

....If he wants to hand carry solo, the only way that is going to happen is with a guideboat built very, very light, which was the point with all the guideboats, to be portaged.

Clint

So.......

the perfect coastal rower.... launch and retrieve anywhere.. a rowing "sea kayak" in delivery of pleasure

a shorter, lighter, narrow flat bottom Drake, built in vacuum infused kevlar epoxy for hand carry, just like the Guideboats who build 200 boats a year

http://www.adirondack-guide-boat.com/howwebuildakevlarboat.html

Sound great

Brian

[Drosso]

Regarding a sea-going row-boat, that's what I am building right now so you might be interested in the research I have already done. I wanted a boat that can run along easily and was adaptable for one or two people. Like you, I live on the coast so the ability to negotiate chop and waves is my priority also. I decided on dimensions of about 5.5m long and about 1m wide with a bit of 'banana' for better sea going qualities. A critical point here is that the boat must be able to get rid of any shipped water.

There are tons of kit boats with those dimensions around the world but non are self draining so you would need a pump. (CLCBoats.com have the Annapolis Wherry and Chester Yawl). Another beautiful boat is the "Derwent Skiff" by Allan Whit is Hobart which is available fully built by him or as a stitch and glue kit. There are aslo quite a few self-draining boats but I couldn't see any in DIY form. Examples are the Coastal Rowing boats eg "Yole" from Virusboats.com. The main problem I foresee with the
high-stern boats (Wherry, Yawl, Skiff) are that they would be a pain in ster-quarter following conditions and without a steering system I reckon you would rowing one side most of the time - this is due to the unnecessary rising freeboard in the stern of those traditional boats.

...So, I decided to design my own from scratch for strip-plank contsruction out of Huon Pine (best boat-building tmber in the world.) I drew 1/10th plans then scaled up to full size templates and have mounted 12 forms on a jig which is nearly ready to take the first strip...I machined the rough sawn Huon down to 35mmx10mm strips and have the bead and cover router bits to apply to each edge. My cramped workshop smells a treat at the moment with deep huon pine and king billy dust.

The boat is going to be self draining by installing a false floor and internal tanking and a "no-back transom" like the racing yachts. Givien my background as one who has competed in surfboats, my boat has a lot of influence from those craft and aslo the surf skis.

Your requirement about steerability is one I have thought about too - I am going to start with a tiller over a rudder mounted under the craft at the the end of the skeg so that it doesn't tend to pop out when on a "steepie" (wave). The idea is, I row onto the wave, lay back to allow the oars to trail along the sides of the boat, then I go aft and take the tiller facing forward (just as surfboat rowers do). Plan B is to have a small flat bladed oar mounted in a rowlock on the transom which I use just like the sweep of a surfboat. I may do both and also attach the rudder to a foot tiller or pedals...

Anyway, that's what I've been up to.

[keyhavenpotter]

Drosso, anyway of showing us what she looks like?

Talking of commercially available self draining open water rowing boats, the Echo has to be right at the top of the choices. You can climb back in if you fall out, I have done it, she is self draining even has a dinghy self bailer. You can sit on the side decks and lift your feet inboard as you launch from the beach. She is a terrific boat, and if the import costs weren't so great I would import one from the US. My son luckily managed to buy one in the UK and it is a terrific boat.

This video of rowing in very rough tidal waters, like our own, sold it to us.

http://www.echorowing.com/images/LornaRough.MPG

Brian

[Drosso]

Yes Brian, I will put up some photos after I have a few planks on.

The Echo would be perfect for someone who just wants something off the shelf and not wooden.

If you want a similar boat, have a look at : virusuk.demon.co.uk and check out the Yole and Turbo.

Drosso

[keyhavenpotter]

I was rather taken by the Brightside's Handliner design. It's history as a working man's coastal rowing and fishing boat struck a cord. Some of the best cod fishing in the UK lies of the beach where I live. The plans are very reasonable so I ordered a set, which have just arrived.

They are very clear and concise and include a 67 page building manual. One thing in particular is nice to see. The complaint by epoxy clinker builders is that S&T is a floppy mess while assembling the hull, offering no reassurance that the hull will be straight and true. These plans come with a simple building jig/frame which ensures the stitched hull is straight and true and that the beam and gunnel heights are held at the correct position and heights.

The boat calls for just three sheets of 6mm, so even I may risk a go.

Brian

[CCBB]

So.......

the perfect coastal rower.... launch and retrieve anywhere.. a rowing "sea kayak" in delivery of pleasure

a shorter, lighter, narrow flat bottom Drake, built in vacuum infused kevlar epoxy for hand carry, just like the Guideboats who build 200 boats a year

http://www.adirondack-guide-boat.com/howwebuildakevlarboat.html

Sound great

Brian

Brian, You betcha about the Guideboat. I know them well in that I am usually right behind the good rowers in Guideboats. I chased one for 8miles around a recent race. My 135lb 17'4 plywood boat did OK against the 40 lb Kevlar guideboat. It got me thinking about a more competitive boat for racing and the boat I plan to build for this purpose is Gartside's Flashboat. I won't even bother to design something as good...would rather design other things and build the established rowboats. I do think Drake could be cutoff along the bottom, lightened up, and become competitive both in speed and marketing. You have to be ready for guideboat rowing...it is a different style and flow than Drake. I like a low, slow, powerful stroke without crossover in the hands on the pull. Guideboats require a lot of crossover and a faster rating for them to work well.

Daddles, what is your latest thought on the rowboat for your waters?

[Dave Brewer]

Do you have a link to this Brian?You've piqued my curiosity.
Cheers,
Dave.

[keyhavenpotter]

HI Dave

here is the link to Larry Westlake's, the designers website.

http://westlakeboats.ca/

on the right hand side there is a list of his designs and Brightside is listed there.

http://westlakeboats.ca/plans/BrightsidesLoRez.jpg

Brian

[keyhavenpotter]

a more competitive boat for racing and the boat I plan to build for this purpose is Gartside's Flashboat.

You have to be ready for guideboat rowing...it is a different style and flow than Drake. I like a low, slow, powerful stroke without crossover in the hands on the pull. Guideboats require a lot of crossover and a faster rating for them to work well.

While we wait for Daddles......

Clint, the Gartside Flashboat has been a favourite of mine for some time. There was a superb article by Paul in Water Craft of rowing it 2000 miles in the Yukon. Did you see that? Could fax you a copy if you liked. I feel sure people would pay for a professional built Flashboat.

Thanks for the description of rowing the two different types of boat. Helps when you have never seen a Guideboat in the flesh.

Brian

[CCBB]

Brian, I would love the article. You could scan and email it...cheaper than fax overseas?

I'm glad you think the Flashboat would be marketable. Maybe not this year but next I'll put one out there.

Clint

[Daddles]

While we wait for Daddles......

I have no interest in composite boats.
I have no interest in sliding seats or other stuff like that.
I have a need to carry passengers and my dog.
Nah, this discussion, while remaining useful, has moved outside of my requirements, but that's okay, you blokes keep talking, the thread's serving other useful purposes.

Richard

[Daddles]

And possibly that last post reads grumpily whereas it wasn't meant that way.
I'm tired.

Richard

[CCBB]

We'll help Daddles in the other thread, but for now this is a good thread.

Here is another good (biG) discussion on BoatDesign.net

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/designing-fast-rowboat-14250.html

Cheers,
Clint

[keyhavenpotter]

Brian, I would love the article. You could scan and email it...cheaper than fax overseas?

Clint

Have managed to find the article amongst my ever growing Water Craft back collection.

The issue is No 33 May/June 2002 and it is available from Water Craft back issue department

http://www.watercraft.co.uk/backs.htm

Very well worth reading. Probably the most evocative article and pictures ever to appear in the mag. A 2000 mile rowing trip from the head of the Yukon to Norton Sound on the west coast of Alaska.

On the flat bottom issue - I think it's a restriction that is not needed. Drake looks happy enough here on the beach.


http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=117056&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1253500205

As for rowing boat that sail - that's a really tough one. I would go for Drake or Flashboat or Bob in strip plank for rowing and a done up Mirror Dinghy or your equivalent for sailing. I feel strongly that the max size for sailing you should be looking at is 12' so it's light and easy to launch and the jib will be kids size.

If you have to build a sailing boat how about either a Shearwater or a sail and oar Tammie Norrie. I have sailed my son's TN and it's a wonderful boat. The only sail and oar boat that actually really is sail and oar I have sailed.

If it has to be one boat rowing orientated, perhaps the only way it works is no ballast for rowing and ballast for sailing? The builder of my Skerrieskiff did say he sailed her with a bag of ballast up forward normally. Plenty of sand on your beach!

Brian

Brian

[keyhavenpotter]

Picyures of Paul Gartside's Flashboat lifted from Rowing for Pleasure blog

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_a6mAYyc8sBI/R88dC4wnIXI/AAAAAAAAAog/n3FtlUg_hjk/s1600/dscn2171.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_a6mAYyc8sBI/R88a8YwnIWI/AAAAAAAAAoY/T7IdcV2C5Qc/s1600/Pelorus%2BSound%2BJanuary%2B%2707%2B006.jpg

ROWING FOR PLEASURE: Gartside Flashboat in New Zealand (http://rowingforpleasure.blogspot.com/2008/03/paul-gartsides-flashboat-in-new-zealand.html)

Here the Flashboat is pictured with a St Lawrence River skiff.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_a6mAYyc8sBI/R88eD4wnIYI/AAAAAAAAAoo/Cv8d-Qv6dyc/s1600/Abel%2BTasman%2Browingsailing%2Btrip%2BApril%2B07%2B019.jpg

This St Lawrence skiff is 21' by only 42" beam. These outriggers help spread the oars

http://www.grapeviewpointboatworks.com/slrs.html

http://www.grapeviewpointboatworks.com/images/slrs/slrs_rowing.jpg

http://www.grapeviewpointboatworks.com/images/slrs/slrs_outrigger.jpg



Brian

[bloggs1968]

While we wait for Daddles......

Clint, the Gartside Flashboat has been a favourite of mine for some time. There was a superb article by Paul in Water Craft of rowing it 2000 miles in the Yukon. Did you see that? Could fax you a copy if you liked. I feel sure people would pay for a professional built Flashboat.

Thanks for the description of rowing the two different types of boat. Helps when you have never seen a Guideboat in the flesh.

Brian

Hi Brian,

Any chance you could email the article to me? I have been wanting to build one of these for a while now and ordered the plans this morning. Paul had said that he had built out of both 3mm "doorskin" and 4mm okoume but the doorskin had to be sheathed.

He also sent me a picture of one clinker built in WRC which looked nice but obviously much heavier.

Any help appreciated in getting a copy of the story.

regards,

AD

[keyhavenpotter]

Water Craft still have back copies available for the issue the article was in, and it can be ordered over the internet.

No 33, May/June 2002

WATERCRAFT (http://www.watercraft.co.uk/backs.htm)

Brian

[bloggs1968]

Thanks Brian,

I've ordered it from them.

AD

[CCBB]

Andrew, If you build this let me know or post on it. I will be looking at building it myself to show not next year but the one after. I am a one man show here!

The Flashboat looks awesome. My interest is in making the lightest one possible. We have 3mm Okoume here...I'd even consider using something exotic like carbon/kevlar to keep it VERY, VERY light. Easy to say, to expensive to do. 3mm Okoume...maybe get away without sheathing? Glass and resin is so heavy....

[keyhavenpotter]

In the Water Craft article Paul says he built two boats. One 3mm sheathed with 133grm, (0.44oz / sq ft) which came out at 58kg. The second boat in 4mm unsheathed Bruynzeel, cedar stringers came out at 41kg.

Just received a reply from Paul Gartside about 4mm ply usage to build the Flashboat. His recollection is that she uses 4 sheets of 4mm to plank and 1 sheet of 9mm for the frames.

Brian

[bloggs1968]

[QUOTE=Compass Project;1044203]Andrew, If you build this let me know or post on it. I will be looking at building it myself to show not next year but the one after. I am a one man show here!

QUOTE]

Will do Clint. Paul has digitised these plans so they are available electronically now too!

I won't be able to get started for a little while either as things are very busy here but I will keep you informed.

regards,

AD

[keyhavenpotter]

Re-reading the Water Craft article on the Flashboat has made me realise that the 4mm Bryunzeel ply was unsheathed.

Now, in the UK Timbmet are the importers for Bryunzeel ply and I have a local depot. Last year my son noticed that they had 20 year guaranteed Bryunzeel 4mm gaboon marine ply listed at £19.94 a sheet, everything else was much dearer. We assumed it was a mistake and never checked.

I have been looking closely at what coastal rowing boat to go for. I really like the Brightside design for a number of reasons, but when the plans arrived they basically insist on full sheathing. the materials list calls for 12 litres of epoxy - that's £160 alone. Plus cloth another £160. So £320 to make the boat at least 25kg heavier, and I am wanting to car top this design! Total weight would be too heavy.

I have loved the Flashboat since reading about it 7 years ago. Paul confirms it uses 4 sheets of 4mm. So to make this lovely design will cost me only £80 in hull ply and hugely less in epoxy. Also uses one sheet of 9mm for the frames.

So, I rang the depot. Yes they had stock, but only 9 sheets left and no more since product was discontinued. The price was actually for 50 off pallet but they also honoured that internet listed price.

Went down yesterday to look, lovely. No voids, nice even three veneers, not super thin face and one thick veneer. So bought the 9 sheets of ply and trying to work out explaining it to the wife.

I have to complete a very slow Snipefish build, son has just started his Shearwater, so build is a far bit off yet, but it's a nice feeling to know that sometime in the future, we have the plans and ply to build two boats together.

For now, I will try very hard to catch up on the house and garden over this winter and not feel quite so guilty when we start.

Thanks to this thread I will enjoy a warm glow of expectation while decorating!

Brian

[Daddles]

So, I rang the depot. ... snip ...

Thanks to this thread I will enjoy a warm glow of expectation while decorating!

Brian

Sod :~

Richard

what's that old saying about right places and time? :D

[keyhavenpotter]

Guy's, and I guess mainly PAR,

it's very difficult to get the weight of a ply rowboat low enough to successfully car top. 14.9 at 42" beam is only 2" wider than my Curlew sailing canoe from Solway Dory, so is good size to fit roof racks. It would be good is she were also light enough to lift comfortably,

so gang, what about building 14.9 as a skin on frame, as per the Umiak used on the Shipyard Raid.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f33/115345d1251967773t-sea-going-rowboat-design-considerations-ryd-149.jpg

History (http://crew407.venturingweb.org/history.htm)

http://crew407.venturingweb.org/Oars%20pass%20by.JPG

Tom Yost's kayak building manual could be used as a building methodology?

Wood Frame Kayak Builders Manual - Homebuilt SOF kayaks by Thomas Yost (http://www.yostwerks.com/WoodSOFMain.html)

Brian

[PAR]

Skin boats can be quite light, but they also, like everything else in yacht design offer up their share of compromises. One sharp rock and you've got a problem in a skin boat. Repeated beaching, dragging over sand bars, filling with rain water or dropping bottles of beer (which break) into the boat are all things that commonly occur, but must be avoided with these boats.

I think the shape would work well as a skin job, but some of the advantages of 14.9's design wouldn't be used to full potential. The flat bottom panel would be a problem with this construction method, exposing it to potential penetration. A modest V bottom with runners would probably be a better route to protect the skin.

I haven't done any direct comparisons, as I don't have much use for skin craft, but I suspect you'll not make it much lighter then a well built glued, Okoume, lap strake version.

If she was built with 6 mm bottom and 4 mm topsides, then a delicate boat (better then a skin boat though), but she'd be exceptionally light for her size. I still don't think she's particularly heavy with the 9 mm bottom and 6 mm topsides.

Cartopping is more an issue of loading ease then boat weight. A heavy boat that can be easily loaded on the roof is acceptable. A light boat that is a pain to load isn't.

[KJL38]

Brian, have a look at the skin on frame boats on these pages jwboat (http://www.capefalconkayak.com/jwboat.html) campcruisingcortez (http://www.capefalconkayak.com/campcruisingcortez.html) adirondackguideboat (http://www.capefalconkayak.com/adirondackguideboat.html) At 42 pounds for the 15ft guideboat I think it would be lighter than ply. According to the folks at Greenland Kayaking Forum - Message Index (http://www.qajaqusa.org/cgi-bin/GreenlandTechniqueForum_config.pl) the 12oz ballistic nylon with a 2 part polyurethane coating is much tougher than most people think.

Kelvin

[keyhavenpotter]

Thanks PAR and Kelvin. The picture of the 13' Guideboat is really encouraging and the weight 31 lbs!. Can just imagine the 14.9 built that way.

http://www.capefalconkayak.com/alecrowssingle.jpg

In fact I notice the RYD 12.6 is 13'4" LOD so just about perfect for a shoulder carry down the cliff steps and away on the sea. If I promised to be really careful, what do you think PAR?

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f33/73054d1210239956-sea-going-rowboat-design-considerations-ryd-126.jpg

Could have a flat bottom board the same as the Guideboat above.

http://www.capefalconkayak.com/ribsscrewedside.jpg

The thing is you see, by the time I have caught up with the garden and home decorating, the temperature will have dropped and using epoxy will be really hard going. It would be nice to be able to put a lightweight boat like this together between Year End and the Spring when epoxy ply is just not possible.

Brian

[keyhavenpotter]

In an earlier post Clint mentioned the Boat Design thread. Went through the whole 36 page thread and came across this fantastic video of a Finnish two man coastal racing skiff. Race up to 60km.

YouTube - Pikkulintu HD 720

One man version -

http://www.puuvenepiste.fi/images/PS1-persp2.jpg

Yksikkö suunnittelussa (http://www.puuvenepiste.fi/yksikko.html)

Brian

[Daddles]

Hey Clint, how long would it take you to row 20km in open water? Assume that the wind and tide aren't picking on you.

Richard

[CCBB]

The Flashboat would be 90.2 pounds with 4mm Brunzeel....wouldn't it be lighter with Okoume? This boat is almost cartoppable with one person!

The Finnish boaters also have a class of boats where there is a forward rower and a paddler aft! That looks like a lot of fun, too.

My interest after the next couple projects, is to build the fastest sea going, fixed seat rowboat possible. With the right oars, a special rowing thwart (not sliding, but one that can tilt a bit), and an ultralight boat, and a strong rower, it'd be fun to see how fast one can go.

The original post, of course isn't about speed, it is about a versatile boat for launching and using with friends. I maintain that a dory is the best design. You get the flat bottom for beaching, great capacity for taking folks out (without losing rowing ability), and dories are so practical to build.

I have a customer building my most recent boat, I call it the Deblois Street Dory, and his 'design brief' looked nearly identical to Daddles.

Cheers,
CLint

[keyhavenpotter]

The Flashboat would be 90.2 pounds with 4mm Brunzeel....wouldn't it be lighter with Okoume? This boat is almost cartoppable with one person! CLint

The Bryunzeel is Okoume / Gaboon - same thing I think.

Flashboat is far too big in length and especially beam to ever car top.

Just had a reply about the very sleek Finnish boat, and here are the dimensions

"The boat is 6,5 meters long and appr. 1.28 wide and it's 6 mm oukume
epoxy clinker. (total weight about 40 kg)."

Plans will not be available - they are working on supplying kits!

Brian

[Daddles]

Plans will not be available - they are working on supplying kits!

Brian

The home boat builder is going to be killed by the home kit buyer. The same thing's happened to radio control model aeroplanes to the point where I've been sneered at for not only building my own models but designing them as well :no: (yes, the term 'tosser' did form in my mind at the time :cool:)

Richard

[keyhavenpotter]

I reckon it's the boat builders who sneer at the kit buyers!! Not real men!!

Brian