Sea going rowboat design considerations [Archive]

Daddles

4th May 2008, 05:42 PM

I was sitting down on the beach this morning. Lovely day. Temperature in the low 20's. Lots of blue clouds. 10+kt wind stirring up a bit of chop but no whitecaps.

The water was lumpy enough to make a couple of trailer sailors pitch until they got the sails organised. A pair of small sailing dinghies were having fun further up the coast. A couple of sea going kayaks cruised past, hulls disappearing in the troughs but never the pilots. The sort of day we often get here in our shallow gulf.

And I thought how lovely it would be to be out there in a rowboat. Not one of them sea kayak things - I understand their attraction and abilities but they aren't for me, I prefer the more relaxed life aboard a recreational rowboat (so you can assume I'm not interested in sliding seats either :wink:).

Yes Mik, I did think how nice it'd be to have Redback there and how I must get that rowlock position sorted out.

Now, seeing I'm sort of caught up in building Sixpence, I can't start another boat at the moment, so I thought I'd indulge in some research.

The ocean going rowboat - what characteristics do I need and what hull forms provide them?

Single handed rowing (for the most part - passengers are cool too).
Being able to man handle it on the beach.
Able to cut through chop and inshore waves.
Able to handle following waves without being thrown off line.
Able to handle side winds, sometimes stiff sidewinds.
Able to keep me sort of dry - yes, I know that 'dry' and boats is only reasonable on the river, but I don't want to wear a flamin' wet suit either.

Am I right in assuming that any boat that will happy in conditions such as I described above would be very happy rowing along a river?

It seems to me that leaving the beach and returning to it will be the most dangerous parts of the journey, requiring a boat that will ride over or drive through waves under the sort of power a single rower can produce. No, I'm not going out in stupid waves like the surf life savers do :oo: That's for young bucks, not us aging gentlemen :rolleyes:
What characteritics do you need to negotiate the wave zone?

Other things to discuss might be:
Flat bottomed vs round bilge - does it make any difference?
Double ended vs transom - why would you choose either?
Diamond cross section oars vs curved blades -is this a matter of power vs endurance?

Oh and lots more :D

Richard

(and yes, I will be chiming in with ideas from my own meagre knowledge base :cool:)

echnidna

4th May 2008, 06:42 PM

Thinking bout a round world trip Daddles? :D

Daddles

4th May 2008, 06:47 PM

Thinking bout a round world trip Daddles? :D

Mate, if I could leave the kids for that long, I'd take Redback the length of the Murray - think of the travel book that'd make, the Murray in a 7' boat :wink:

Richard
(I'm serious, but can't escape the kids for long enough :()

Aberdeen

4th May 2008, 07:12 PM

Daddles
Traversing the length of the Murray at the moment in just about anything would be courting disaster..... unless of course it was fitted with 4WD wheels!

A mate at work took his 14' tinny up to Blanchetown last weekend.
Above the lock seemed fine....
Below the lock.... well that was another story.... got a bit stuck on no less than 4 sandbars...... his wife was starting to freek out as the sun slowly set..... pondering if they would ever get back to the launch place
They both got some great exercise using the paddles to leaver off of the sand.........

Now that would be a great chapter in your book......

KJL38

4th May 2008, 08:14 PM

I'm currently building an Adirondack Guideboat which is claimed by some to be good for rough conditions, I'll find out when it's finished. Here's a link about them http://www.adirondack-guide-boat.com/roughwater.html

As to flat bottom, better with a round or V hull as the flat hull sits flat against the surface of the water even when the surface is no longer horizontal which makes them tippier in rough conditions. I recall hearing that Eskimo Umiaks had flat bottoms until contact with Europeans when they discovered the advantages of the round hulls in rough conditions.

Another option could be an Irish Currach, a canvas covered wooden framed boat. There are many regional variations determined by the local conditions. If you get a chance to see an old black and white film called "Man of Aran" you will see some in very rough seas. http://currachs.thisbetterworld.org/

Guideboats are double enders, currachs have transoms so I don't think there is a clear advantage. A high bow with a lot of flare would get you over the waves rather than through them but you wouldn't want it too high or it would catch the wind.

Both these boats are light weight for handling on land.

I'm sure there are plenty of other options but these too were the ones that came to mind.

Daddles

4th May 2008, 08:53 PM

Anyone who googles 'row boat' comes up with the Adirondack Guideboat but I'd never seen that page. Rather impressive isn't it. Thanks for that. The problem being of course, you can't get plans for the things and I'm afraid I find their excuse a bit too glib.

Still, a very interesting link that's fired a few ideas, particularly about what is needed :2tsup:

Richard

too tired to dig into the Currachs link too deeply :-

KJL38

4th May 2008, 10:11 PM

I used plans from Nick Schade at Guillemot kayaks http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/guillemot/AGB

I also used this book although I'm building it as ribless strip plank. The book still has a lot of useful info and has detailed drawings of the Grant guideboat that Nicks plans are based on. http://michneboat.com/Book%20Info.htm

The plans of some of the different Currachs is on this page http://www.thisbetterworld.org/cgi-bin/twiki/view/Currachs/CurrachDrawingsFromHornell

There has also been an interesting series of posts following the building of a Currach, the last one being at http://www.qajaqusa.org/cgi-bin/GreenlandTechniqueForum_config.pl?read=67230

Another option is a Faering although it would be heavier. http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/mainpages/gallery?KID=31

Kelvin

bloggs1968

4th May 2008, 11:19 PM

What about this one

http://www.gartsideboats.com/catrow2.php#bob

regards,

AD

Boatmik

5th May 2008, 01:57 AM

Quite like the Garside boat AD,

However it is designed from the ground up to have enough extra stability for a sail.

Stability means hull volume in general.

Hull volume means windage.

Windage means it is hard work to keep the boat on line when it is blowing.

Take some of the volume out by narrowing up the boat and it starts to look quite respectable as a rowboat. Reduce the freeboard a bit.

But nice qualities of the Gartside are the double ended hull.

Reading the blurb it mentions his "Flashboat" - which is a name I recall from the early days of Woodenboat magazine. It appears at the top of the same page.

That one is a bit closer - nice narrow waterline - but to my mind all that flare is going to mean that waves will like to roll it around quite badly - I think that to squeeze the beam down further would make it an easier boat in rough water. But you lose the spread for the oars - but you could still use 7ft6 or 8 footers at 4ft beam.

Actually that puts me in mind of the first boat I ever built - A Francis Herreshoff Rowboat.

Here is a pic off the net
http://www.woodenboatfactory.org/Current%20projects/images/hr1.jpg

And a whole gallery of building one is on the net.
http://www.woodenboatfactory.org/Gallery/Herreshoff%20Rowboat/album/index7.html
this is one of the images and shows the hullform
http://www.woodenboatfactory.org/Gallery/Herreshoff%20Rowboat/album/slides/HR123.jpg

Plans are in John Gardner's "Building Classic Small Craft" - I think the State Library has a copy of his earlier work which was in two volumes. Not sure which of the two had this boat in it.

But Gardner is well worth reading - so why not get the book? It is a cheap way of getting a bunch of plans. I built the bottom out of 9mm and the sides out of 6mm. Eliminated the ribs and put in a couple of frames at the seat stations.

The curved sides will give it a much more relaxing stability curve than a dory which are pretty twitchy beasts by comparison unless they have similarly curved sides (but then one would have to argue that they are not "really" a dory - hehehe!

Would be interested to see what PAR might suggest - his country is much more serious about human propulsion that ours is.

Also while looking for the rowboat link I found this ... a thread that talks about open water rowing. It goes on forever - but might yield some boat designs to google.
http://greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a.tcl?topic=Open%2dwater+rowing

Best wishes
Michael Storer.

Daddles

5th May 2008, 11:37 AM

I had my hands on Gardner's book a few years back and one of my thoughts was to get it again and build a ply version of one of the designs. Am I right in imagining that his comments on the worth of each design would be pretty spot on?

Interesting your comment about the US and rowboats - any search pulls up a lot of american hits but you'd usually regard a lot of that as just noise due to population size, I'll now revise my parameters in that respect. It's also really hard to work out what is good and what isn't because everyone seems to believe theirs is best for some reason. Funny the number of amateur designers who've designed the perfect boat on their first attempt :rolleyes:

I'm leaning towards something traditional ie, a hull form born of long experience. The problem will be the one of function - traditional work boats were designed to carry a load and while I'm larger than needed, I don't qualify as 'a load' yet. I'm sure there are old recreational boats from way back though, and there is a decent collection of modern designers using traditional knowledge to design for modern recreational boaties building with ply and poxy (feel free to blush Mik).

Whatever I build, it won't be a 'blast from the past' - floatation tanks blow that image out of the water immediately and while fake ribs can look cool, I'm a leery of adding stuff 'just coz I want to'.

For a long time, a local tile warehouse used to put their old pallets out the front with a sign up saying 'free firewood'. It was very tempting to raid the pile, fire up the thicknesser and make a planked boat. Still might ... only I need another source of timber. The thought was cheap (as in free materials, biggest cost would have been the paint), fun and 'disposable'. Sadly, I maintained my reason until the warehouse closed.

I'm not commenting on some of the other suggestions made above as I'm supposed to be doing a uni assignment and haven't looked too closely at them yet, but don't worry, this is a serious research project for me and no suggestion will be overlooked.

Richard

Boatmik

5th May 2008, 02:04 PM

The recreational rowing scene in the USA is HUGE compared to here.

Hey PAR - where are you - you must have some hints and tips about this!!!!

MIK

Daddles

5th May 2008, 03:50 PM

How would your rowboat handle the conditions described above Mik?

Richard

PAR

6th May 2008, 12:21 PM

There are a lot of really good "pulling" boats left over from a time when rowing yourself to work or the local store was reasonably common.

When I was young, I remember seeing lots of pulling craft of many different configurations.

I'm not sure of the length you have in mind Daddles, but a few pop into mind for your needs. The first is the Modified McInnis Bateau a 12' 8" double ended, multi chine "tripper's bateau". The original versions of this boat were "guide boat style" and intended to carry hunters or campers and permit fishing. They have some loading capacity, especially for a 12' boat. A modern interpretation would have this boat much lighter (and more water tight) with taped seam plywood construction, rather then the clinker or dory lap construction of the earlier models.

Another is the Herreshoff rowboat (L. Francis), a well known double ender of wonderful ability. It's 17' with a 42" beam and under 100 pounds built lightly in conventional lapstrake. This could be lighter still with taped seam or glued lap build. It is round bilged, but has a flat bottom plank.

John Gardner has a rendition of this boat, very slightly modified which may prove the better boat, by a small margin. Both are detailed in his book "Building Classic Small Craft". The Herreshoff boat has lines in his book "The Common Sense of Yacht Design" though there are no offsets, but it could be scaled reasonably well enough for a model to pull offsets.

Of course the various Whitehalls, but these will likely have more capacity then you need. A Matinicus Peapod has the same issue, but is a fine sea boat. Maybe a small pilot gig would be suitable.

A boat could have a transom, but the underwater waterlines should show considerable "balance" in the ends or you'll have following sea issues. The classic whitehalls do carry a transom, but it's general well clear and the lines balanced.

Daddles

6th May 2008, 12:30 PM

Thanks PAR. I might look very closely at the Herreshoff - not only have you and Mik suggested it as suitable (the only item that NEEDS to be ticked), there has to be some satisfaction in building one of his designs.

Can you see me Mik? At the Goolwa boat show, taking a sip of me coffee and saying casually, 'it's a Herreshoff' :D

I've got an assignment due this week and another the week after, so real reseach will have to wait. One lecture a week is held in the State Library which has a wonderful maritime collection - I'll go in early, check things out and if I like what I see, buy the book :wink:

Richard

Daddles

6th May 2008, 12:31 PM

No-one has tackled the oar question - traditional diamond cross section blades or curved blades, endurance vs power?

Richard

Boatmik

6th May 2008, 02:06 PM

sob sob - I did a comprehensive reply to this yesterday but musn't have saved it properly.

My rowboat is great for flat water and good for any day when you look at the ocean and think it is a nice day to be out there in Redback (Daddle's 8ft boat).

But more symmetry - pointy or near pointy ends gives more directional stability.

Dories have this but small plywood dories don't have enough stability in rough water - they are pretty touchy in flat - but DO give effortless rowing.

Bolgers dory is the best of the bunch because it has a lot more width in the bottom panel fore and aft that give the boat just enough residual stability - most other designers don't understand this and draw a very cool looking narrow ended bottom panel on the assumption that pointy is fast - it is but what's the point if the boat wants to fall over itself.

Here it is compared to my rowboat
http://www.storerboatplans.com/Faq/doryrowboatcomparison.jpg

So something double ended with a bit of curve to the sides to give a gentler stability curve - and you end up with the Herreshoff rowboat or similar.

You don't want more beam than 4ft - it is enough for oars and anything wider will blow around.

Narrower with outriggers is a good option too as it makes the boat a lot less bulky to move around on shore by yourself and gives speed and directional stability and less tendancy to roll with the swell (narrower boats roll more gently than fat boats). It also allows a hull with firmer bilges and a flatter bottom to give a greater feeling of stability.

But an outrigger boat will not have the hull volume to deal with a passenger very well.

Boatmik

6th May 2008, 02:12 PM

No-one has tackled the oar question - traditional diamond cross section blades or curved blades, endurance vs power?

Richard

You didn't ask us.

Oars for sea have been traditionally symmetrical in all directions with long blades relative to the loom.

Oars with front and back convex and concave faces want to develop higher forces out of plane with the rowing action when the blade is less than perfectly placed in the water.

Longer blades are more likely to produce useful drive whether the end of the blade is immersed one or two feet.

Get the hull right and a nicely balanced moderately oar of any middle of the road blade design will be fine.

Use a performance rowing shape and it might get to be fun in rougher water - though many will use them for open water racing events.

MIK

Daddles

6th May 2008, 05:33 PM

You didn't ask us.

Yes, I did, back in the first post (pokes out tongue) :D

Thanks for that.

I got the idea about effort from Jim Michalak's article on oar making. I have, in fact, made all my oars based on his pattern (just reproportioned to suit the three lengths I've made). I'll probably use that pattern again this time, though my methods have evolved a bit. Next pair will be for Sixpence :D

Richard

PAR

7th May 2008, 10:15 AM

Michael has just mimicked comments that I made to him in an email.

Many pulling craft designs don't consider the comfort of the rower or the ease of penetration compared to the work effort.

By this I mean there is a delicate balance between initial stability, entry penetration in to a sea and the ability for the oarsman to comfortably pull through over long distances.

From a design stand point I look at the general speed that can be generated by a young healthy rower at a moderate pace, then shape the bottom and sides of the boat to this S/L target. This is one reason Bolger's boats perform so well and also why the Herreshoff is so well regarded. These boats don't try to move too much water around the hull (or too little) at the average general speeds they'll travel at.

Dragging a hole or lots of eddies along with you on each stroke, just limits the rowers endurance. This coupled with an uneasy feeling of a tender boat (like an under loaded dory for example) tends to keep the boat in the carport, not working it's way around the local puddles.

By their very nature a good pulling boat wants to be light and tender for best performance, with easy ends to part and permit the flow to rejoin with little fuss. For deeper water efforts, the designer likes to increase the freeboard, particularly at the bow, but I've found this isn't always necessary, when a removable canvas deck can be employed, stretched between the rails. It'll shed boarding water, but not let the boat get blown off because it has a deep water "proboscis". Traditional dories have this treatment and they're a pain in the butt to row in rough conditions as a result. This in addition to their equally proud stern height, causes them to be miserable beasts in any contrary winds.

The oar blade issue I think is a matter of user preference. I personally prefer a standard symmetrical blade, without "power cups" or other high pressure shapes. In a short duration race, sure these "fancy" blades can have an advantage, but for recreational rowing, I don't want to have to concentrate about blade position any more then what is comfortable.

b.o.a.t.

7th May 2008, 11:08 AM

Current SLSA surf boats are primarily open water racing sculls, with some ability to enter & exit via surf. They combines all the features Paul mentions except the long canvas fore-deck. Perhaps a scaled-down version of one of these, with a long water-shedding fore-deck would do the trick ? Added bonus of being locally "authentic".

Don't know where you'd get the plans though. SLSA competitions web sites talk of "standard" boats, so it must exist somewhere.

cheers
AJ

PAR

7th May 2008, 01:32 PM

http://www.asrlsa.com.au/

Pagie

7th May 2008, 04:01 PM

I have been in many Irish Currachs over the years, they are still used by my brothers in laws to take sheep and crew back and forth from Innishkea Island to the mainland. The oars are long and narrow with attachments for the Thole pins. This is the business end of the blades.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/24/42170867_c6af6f5ee0.jpg

The tholepin pieces (name?) are nailed on to the oar with Galvanised nails.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/32/42170866_1d718a1c1c.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1217/899655568_56cdc987b5.jpg
Going ashore on Innishkea North. 3 men,2 dogs and a shearing plant and generator.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2381/2472208695_d2205b00e6_b.jpg

Boatmik

7th May 2008, 05:36 PM

Howdy AJ,

The lifeboats really are raceboats and have a number of extreme features now. For example the older boats had to be designed to keep the water out. The modern boats are evolving towards decked in boats with small cockpits for the crew and a high capacity pump going all the time.

A more serious problem is that if you scale a boat down stability disappears REALLY quickly. It varies with the 4th power (mathematically speaking)

So if the size of the boat is reduced by 15%, but the shape stays constant the stability will be equal to 0.75 to the 4th power = 32% of the original boat.

So if you take an somewhat unstable model like the OZ surfboat and reduce the size a bit ... big probs.

I did an article about this last year for AABB - someone shrunk one of my Goat Island Skiffs then found they couldn't keep it upright. I ended up drawing up some sail and spar mods that brought things back into proportion a bit more.

I know that sometimes on the net you can see people saying you can change the size of a boat by 10 or 15% and it will be OK - but like almost all rules of thumb and supposed ratios there are far more exceptions than there are situations where you can use the rule. Generally an increase in length is not too bad - but is best to talk to the designer

(AJ - this is a general diatribe - I know you know most of this).

Now to get back to the rowboat choice ...

PAR - I saw someone talking about one of your rowboats on the woodenboat or boatdesign forums ... are any of them suitable?

Best wishes
Michael

Daddles

7th May 2008, 07:09 PM

I was looking through Gardner's book today - the Herreshoft is in "More Building Classic Small Craft" which might be just a reprint of Vol. 2.

Anyways, that Herrshoft is 17 ft long :oo:

Yes, I know boats shrink on the water and that longer is better, but I've got grave doubts about the general maneagability of a boat that long when not in open water eg, on the bank or in a crowed creek. It's also a hell of a lot of timber which has to translate into weight (and expense). Still thinking about it though, it's just a hell of a bite to take.

The McInnes looked better but at 12'8", is it a bit too short, particularly seeing it's a double ender? I'm guessing here - part of the idea of this thread is to further my education.

Still, length is only relative and dependent on the situation. I guess I'm not likely to take the Herreshoft into a narrow creek to chase bream ... but then again, I would take the McInnes. Then again, I've got Redback for the cramped work but that assumes I'll always be able to have a fleet of boats stacked up in the back yard.

Come on lads, convince me that 17' is only scary because ... it's so damned frightening :-

What the modern versions of these boats and their derivatives?

Another question - where does 'better' become irrelevant?

Richard

Daddles

7th May 2008, 07:21 PM

And having just gone through PAR's original post for about the tenth time, why did it come as a surprise to find that the Herreshoff is 17 ft? :-

Don't be coy about suggesting your own designs either PAR, it's pretty obvious you're not here to spam us.

Richard

Boatmik

7th May 2008, 07:47 PM

Hey Daddles, - I built one - it was the first boat I ever built.

It was light - out of 6mm ply with a 9mm bottom, no ribs spaced inwales and bow and stern knees.

Work on the lightness aspect and I'd be betting there would be very little weight difference between that and the McIness.

If you can build a Eureka at around 45lbs out of 6mm ply i'd be very surprised if you couldn't get the Herreshoff well under 90lbs with care - it won't be any heavier than my rowboat.

And length is the best thing in the world - for travelling, seaworthiness and also to help you get it on the car roof.

Michael

Daddles

7th May 2008, 09:58 PM

In other words, the length just sounds scary ... and won't fit in my shed - Sixpence fills it and she's on 14'.

It looks the goods though. Hell, I might even build it with the stupid ribs.

Richard

Knotaclue

7th May 2008, 11:47 PM

Hi,
I did a heap of research about the Cosine Wherry before buying the plans.
When I eventually build it ...it will be for lakes (ie Gippsland variety) and rivers.
I emailed the folks (in Canada?) who build these boats and they reckon that it handles a 5-foot chop and stays "dry".
They also use Spoon blade oars and reckon the boat reaches speed after about 5 strokes.
So that's one extreme. At the other end of the spectrum I believe it was designed by a naval architect using the slippery ( cosine curve) design used for Submarines ..
I hope this is not an Omen!! ( must fit some more flotation)

At 14 ft. and beamy.... it is set up as a fixed seat for one or two person rowing.

Do a Google search on Cosine Wherry and heaps of sites will appear.

Food for thought

Cheers
Bob

ian

8th May 2008, 12:08 AM

Richard

I think the type of boat you're looking for (coastal waters) is variuosly called a called a dory, fishing dory, or wherry.
try a google search

the light boat I really like is this one from Pygmy Boats http://www.pygmyboats.com/mall/WGWSPECS.asp

http://www.pygmyboats.com/images/WGW2_067.jpg

ian

b.o.a.t.

8th May 2008, 01:13 AM

http://www.asrlsa.com.au/

[shakes head sadly]
went looking for something like this back in Feb/March.
Searched high & low at several SLSA state-level sites without success.
And a Floridan finds it at a Club site not 200 miles from me...
How embarrassment... :B

Boatmik

8th May 2008, 09:37 AM

In other words, the length just sounds scary ... and won't fit in my shed - Sixpence fills it and she's on 14'.

It looks the goods though. Hell, I might even build it with the stupid ribs.

Richard

Not if you want it light!

MIK

Boatmik

8th May 2008, 10:03 AM

Howdy,

People play pretty fast and loose with traditional boat names these days.

I think a wherry was a sailing or towable canal boat for carrying cargo in the Norfolk Broads - waterways cut out of soft peat - it is also used for a variety of rowboats - I don't know why it is so much used for rowboats - but at any rate I think they were harbour boats.

Lightweight Dories of around 16ft I have talked about elsewhere - not recommended for rough water.

The Cosine wherry and the Pygmy don't answer the open water criteria that we were talking about. Their height and width will mean that they catch the wind way more than the types we were talking about and the wide sterns mean that waves will knock them off course more strongly than a hull with a more symmetrical volume distribution underwater.

These two suggestions are nice boats for other functions though - they can carry much more than one person with very few problems and can swing longer oars without outriggers. But their function doesn't meet the criteria.

Best wishes
Michael.

(Something that may be useful - for the Cosine Wherry - there used to be a problem with one of the frames
See http://www.woodenboat.com/forum//showthread.php?t=114
The comment that it is too much for an amateur builder is incorrect I think - it is not too bad.
Some other mention of the same problem here
http://www.woodworkforums.com/archive/index.php/t-40561.html.
or on Amazon
Amazon.ca: Rip, Strip, & Row: A Builders Guide to the Cosine Wherry: J. D. Brown: Books

THIS DOES NOT MEAN IT IS A BAD PLAN - MAKE THE MOULD AS PER THE PLAN AND THEN ALTER ITS SHAPE SO IT RUNS FAIR - Just ignore any areas that are too low and let the strips run fair.

Maybe they have fixed the problem now - check with them and see if it has been corrected - one of the threads above I give a rundown on a method that can be used to "loft" a set of moulds that have been set up on the strongback.

Best wishes
Michael

b.o.a.t.

8th May 2008, 11:19 AM

Daddles

8th May 2008, 11:46 AM

The Cosine wherry and the Pygmy don't answer the open water criteria that we were talking about. Their height and width will mean that they catch the wind way more than the types we were talking about and the wide sterns mean that waves will knock them off course more strongly than a hull with a more symmetrical volume distribution underwater.

These two suggestions are nice boats for other functions though - they can carry much more than one person with very few problems and can swing longer oars without outriggers. But their function doesn't meet the criteria.

Best wishes
Michael.

Yes. This boat will need the open water ability. The closest patch of decent sized wet stuff near me is the Gulf off Adelaide - windy and, being a shallow gulf, likely to get choppy. Then there's the River Murray which does windy very well (though not overly rough) but it does have some decent currents.

If I'm silly enough to head in the Lake Alexandrina, I'll have to buy a Land Rover :cool: (cue comments about the stupidity and short sightedness of letting that lake system die through lack of water) ... oh okay, back on topic, the lakes are very shallow even when they do have water in them and with a decent wind, get very choppy. Am I right in suggesting that the lakes are some of the most dangerous waters around Adelaide, if only because of the speed at which they can turn nasty?

Having rowed bad boats in strong winds, windage is bloody important and South Oz is a rather windy place (too many politicians relative to the population).

Mik, did you see me rowing into the Goolwa boat festival last year? Very windy. Decent chop. Redback handled it but I certainly wasn't comfortable, mind you, I was scared stiff because I had my two kids in the boat with me. But those are the sorts of conditions this boat should be able to handle with ease and for a long distance. You did your PDR high speed run in similar conditions.

I've seen a variety of wherrys over the years and quite like the look and style. The question is, will they do the job? I don't want some high spirited sports boat, I need a practical boat, one that'll carry a bit of a load and a couple of passengers, but she'll be no work boat either and most of the time will have no more than lunch and some fishing gear in her.

A 12'6" double ender does seem a bit short - how much do you lose for the ends.
I'm thinking that a 17' double ender probably equates to a 15' transomed boat, with the advantage of the pointy bum in a following sea.

Let's take the Herreshoff as the ideal from a performance point of view - fast and seaworthy. However, at 17' she's long the man handle and will need two scarfs in every plank.

Something just under 15' would need one scarf in every plank. All else being equal (which it won't be of course), there'll be a slight drop in speed but needn't be in seaworthiness. It'll be a little easier to store and handle (eg 15' will go in my shed). But is there a design in that range that'll compete with the Herreshoff?

Richard
dammit, I'm supposed to be writing an assignment, NOT thinking boats :cool:

Boatmik

8th May 2008, 01:07 PM

Howdy Daddles - the lakes are no less dangerous than the Gulf - but people think that they are safer because they are big and shallow.

The first big sail I did on Beth was my first sail on Lake Alexandrina.

I am smart enough to know that if you want to come back easily then you head off toward the wind - not away from it - and I had checked for the possibility of a wind direction change (radio and lateness in the day).

So headed off on a shy reach to the other side.

Sailed

Sailed

Sailed some more. "is it getting closer"

Sailed

and sailed.

In the end I turned back as it was getting late.

You see, as a New South Welshman I am used to our local lakes - some are quite large - but generally you can sail right across in a reasonably quick boat like Beth in 20 minutes or so in similar light/moderate breezes. So the scale of the SA lakes did blow me away a bit initially.

And here they are going dry!!!
___________________________________________

Just for out of towners ...

Because of the rising salinity, tubeworm (sometimes called "coral" in Syd - line like calcium carbonate accretions a few mm in diameter that you get on the surface of a moored boat) has gone crazy in the supposedly freshwater Murray Lakes. There are marina pylons with a good foot of the stuff growing that has appeared in just a few months.

Clearly the mechanisms that keep everything in check are breaking down.

My friends are saying that they keep finding the local turtles with similar several inch thick accretions of the worm casings on their shells stranded on shore or stranded in pools. They scrape them off then release them. They now check every morning. But it is going to be a tiny fraction of the problems that are being caused.

It is really critical down here - the specific Queensland farm companies that thought it was a "free for all" with the recent floods and diverted them into massive dams should be shot and told to pump it back at their cost (not necessarily in that order).

Not talking about people who took normal type amounts.

Similar for all the Victorian Farmers that dug the hundreds of km of illegal channels that were uncovered a few weeks ago.

Same for everyone who has a shower for more than 4 minutes or those who think it is OK to sneak a bit of extra water on the garden.

Pardon me for sounding angry ... but I am angry ... at the thoughtless selfishness of it all.

Sorry - I know everyone here is aware of this, in general terms at least, but the river here is DYING in front of us.

I don't want to talk about the politics - it is a victim to the same problem - thoughtless selfishness - that's what it comes down to in EVERY case.

A kick in the pants for people who think that water that goes down street drains is wasted - it is environmental flow - it is what normally happens!! Everything we take is borrowed (and in the worst cases - stolen) from the environment. We need the environment way more than it needs us.

And praise the people who use their washing up or some of their shower water on the garden or flush their toilets less often or fit watertanks (within reason) to their houses or use "waterless" systems in public urinals, or change their gardens to species that can handle local conditions etc etc etc. There are so many smart things happening too.

Sorry for the diatribe

MIK

PAR

8th May 2008, 08:48 PM

I have a 13' 4" deep water double ender that would be suitable. It's available in traditional lap, glued lap, multi chine taped seam (three chines per side) and I'd be interested in a strip planked round bilge version. The lapped hull has six planks per side with a single garboard, which I feel is what keeps this style of craft stable.

It's designed to carry a load in rough conditions, so she loads down evenly and sweetly without weird handling issues cropping up. She hasn't much rocker, so tracking is good and water flows around her easily, considering she's a moderately burdened 13' pulling boat.

The original was intended for rough service in deep water barrier island hopping. He and his grandson would go fishing and camping for the weekend. The boat has a small transom, able to carry a trolling motor when you get arm weary. I haven't seen this boat in many years, but the last report was "she's surprisingly dry for a little open boat" (his words).

The lines shown don't do the real thing justice, she's pretty as a lapper. When I converted these plans to digital, I drew up a taped seam version. Picture this hull with every other plank missing and you'll get the idea, the shape is essentially the same, just broader stakes.

It also should be noted, this boat doesn't do the following sea boogie, that may pulling boats display. She rises and settles softly, with whatever is running.

Boatmik

8th May 2008, 09:21 PM

Hey Paul,

That design is by some bloke called Riccelli.

What's that all about? :)

MIK

b.o.a.t.

8th May 2008, 11:42 PM

Don't be sorry about the diatribe. Truth simply is.

I wanted to go paddling at Tooleybuc last month, but couldn't be bothered launching. Too far to carry over mud flats & rock reefs, into water littered with exposed reefs & snags. (see thumbs at end)

A mate in SA planning tells me that we have about 12 months water in the system to meet domestic, stock & business needs, not including hortiiculture. This is actually more than at this time last year. They won a concession from NSW & Vic last year to store some of our water up in the Hume instead of downstream.

None of the flooding in Qld will get to us, either as human use or environmental flow. Over half went west towards the Cooper. Of the balance in the Darling catchment, most simply absorbed into parched ground before it even got to the NSW border. Some into the cotton growers' dams (they mostly grabbed Cooper system water). The balance is being absorbed by NSW. Qld's wet season is now over, La Nina has nicked off again, & it will be 6-9 months before there'll be much chance of a repeat. Probably much longer.

Only bit in the whole thing I'd disagree with is this one sentence.

A kick in the pants for people who think that water that goes down street drains is wasted - it is environmental flow - it is what normally happens!!
MIK
Not because it is fundamentally wrong, but because I think it is the way that run-off is delivered into the ocean that is the problem. It should be filtering out slowly through mangroves & being diluted by the tide. Big run-off events should be spreading across a flood-plain before slowly reaching the mangroves then as above.

It's this business of rushing it past the houses & delivering it direct, unfiltered & undiluted straight to the seagrass banks which is the problem. As the mangroves & upstream filtering flats no longer exist, better that we just catch it & use it & reduce our dependance upon the Murray. My limited rain harvesting system will hopefully be running by end of July. Hope to use at least half of what lands on my roof, relying upon mains only in summer.
cheers
AJ

b.o.a.t.

9th May 2008, 12:07 AM

Woods design at http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/ has a couple of open water row boats. But both are 16' long.

The original of Bolger's Gypsy is supposed to have rowed it 160km or so along the coast when he collected it. He also has a pea-pod or two which might be worth a look.

Maybe the real problem is too much choice?

==

PAR - I have seen quite a bit about you on th' Intarweb, but I can't find a website for you to peruse your designs. Do you have one ?

cheers
AJ

Daddles

9th May 2008, 12:48 AM

Woods design at http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/ has a couple of open water row boats. But both are 16' long.

The Linnet from that site has "a small daggerboard is fitted to help prevent being blown sideways by the wind".
Could someone please explain to me why this is an indication of good design? Being the ignorant lump I am, I would have thought that a well designed rowboat would have no need of a daggerboard.

Richard

Daddles

9th May 2008, 12:49 AM

The more I look at PAR's little double ender, the more I like her :D I wouldn't use the wee transom for a trolling motor though, I'd fit a notch there for a long scull :wink:

Richard

PAR

9th May 2008, 08:57 AM

B.O.A.T., I haven't found the need to generate additional business from a web site, but have found one would be a good place for others to see my efforts. To this end, I've just begun setting a site up. It will be running by the end of the month I suspect (I hope).

The pea pod is a well burdened craft, but a very capable sea boat. They move well and have huge capacity, but even a lightly built one will be on the heavy side as a single.

Daddles, your conclusions are founded. A dagger may be needed in a craft with more bearing area and rocker, one suited to sail as well as row. With the additional rocker, she'll maneuver smartly, if you want it to or not, so a dagger or skeg may be necessary to help her hold course.

This is the difficulty designing a boat that will sail and row. If it rows well, then she's not firm enough to stand against a press. If she's stiff enough to stand, then you're dragging more boat around then you need when rowing.

There is a notch for a sculling oar in RYD-12.6's transom Daddles.

Daddles

9th May 2008, 10:29 AM

There is a notch for a sculling oar in RYD-12.6's transom Daddles.

I saw that :D

Sculling is something I've planned for the rowboat from the start - I will be fitting something for Sixpence too, though in her case it might be a rowlock to take a standard oar - I haven't thought that far yet.

I like rowing but it seems to me that when heading into a crowded wharf area, you want to see where you're going and being only 4' wide as opposed to 16' wide has to be an advantage. Hence the scull :D

Early in Redback's life, I found myself broadside in a Willow tree. I forget what I was doing, checking something out in there or something equally daft. It was deliberate, I do remember that. Anyway, I pulled myself out sideways simply by using a sculling action with the oar.

Richard

m2c1Iw

9th May 2008, 11:13 AM

The more I look at PAR's little double ender, the more I like her :D

I agree, tidy little thing I recon.

B.O.A.T., I haven't found the need to generate additional business from a web site, but have found one would be a good place for others to see my efforts. To this end, I've just begun setting a site up. It will be running by the end of the month I suspect (I hope).

Looking forward to that, I appreciate your contributions to this forum.

Mike

Boatmik

9th May 2008, 11:33 AM

Only bit in the whole thing I'd disagree with is this one sentence.
cheers
AJ

I was all ready to be miffed - but I agree!

MIK

b.o.a.t.

10th May 2008, 04:37 PM

Daddles

26th August 2009, 01:36 AM

Right, I'm resurrecting this thread because it's becomming obvious that this is where my next boat will come from.

The design brief. You'll note that it has changed slightly from a year ago, partly because I'm more mature, partly because change is nice (which means I'm not mature), partly because I've a bit more information under my belt.

So, back to the design brief:

Row boat - sorry, rowing only. I don't want sails and I don't want a hull that's been compromised to take them. Sadly, this seems to rule out Oughtred's offerings.

Beach boat - although it'll be used all over the place, this boat will need to be able to be launched (single handed) from our local beaches and returned to them. This would appear to be a limiting factor.

Length - major change from earlier in this thread where I was shocked at 17 foot boats. I still am but recent reading has led me to accept that with length comes efficiency. If I want a serious row boat, which I do, I will be building the longer boat.

I need to be able to haul said boat off its trailer or off the roof racks in a car park, drag her down a ramp to the beach (on some form of dolly), across said beach and there to launch into the wide blue wet stuff ... on my own! I'll usually have the dog with me but as an aid in launching a boat, he's useless except for chasing seagulls. Similarly, she needs to be able to do the return trip.

Conditions? I live on a shallow gulf with long, straight beaches that are exposed, sandy and generally get deep reasonably quickly ie, you're at knee deep pretty quickly. The water is choppy and while they aren't considered surf beaches (most of the time), you do have to row out through breaking waves. Being a boring old phart, I won't be going out if it's horrid but this being the real world, I could easily find myself returning in horrid conditions. For the sake of setting an upper limit, I'd like to be able to launch her in any conditions you'd launch your racing dinghy eg, a Heron though to be brutally honest, I have personally sailed my own Heron in conditions where I'd leave the rowboat on it's trailer and drink coffee while watching other silly barstewards get wet.

I'm building Mik's rowing skiff. She's a flat water craft. What I'm looking for is a companion boat that I can sail in coastal waters where the only flat bit is where you've just whacked yourself on the underside of a jetty :oo:

Richard

Daddles

26th August 2009, 01:40 AM

Earlier in this thread, PAR suggested his RYD 12.6.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=73054&d=1210239956

She fits the requirements well but is possibly a little short. However, maybe that slight shortness is a positive when close in shore. She does have that nice, flat garboard for beach landings and can be built lapstrake which I love.

She's still on the list Paul ... but do you have a longer version? On reflection, do I need a longer version?

Richard

Daddles

26th August 2009, 01:42 AM

Then there's the Herreshoft.

http://www.woodenboatfactory.org/Gallery/Herreshoff%20Rowboat/album/slides/HR123.jpg

At 17', I initially rejected her but she's right back in the mix, particularly after reading and re-reading Gardner's description of her. She does have the flat bottom but is this enough to make her a good beach boat? Is she too long for a bit of surf when single handed?

Richard

Daddles

26th August 2009, 01:50 AM

The new kid on the block is Clint's (compass project) Drake.

http://www.clintchaseboatbuilder.com/resources/Drake+alone.jpg

This is a boat I could love as she ticks lots of boxes for me. Clint himself loves her and feels unwilling to fully express his feelings for this boat in places where his wife might read them :oo:

To his credit though, Clint has pointed out that her hull shape (not flat bottomed) means she is probably not suited to life off the beach.

Clint has suggested I look at dories and while he didn't go into any detail, I suspect he meant the Swampscott type dory with the rounded bilges as opposed to the Banks Dory with the slab sides.

If I do go for a dory, it would have to be a modern boat designed to be built light for the recreational rower. As Mik, Gardner and others have pointed out, the original working dories were hard working boats that were tricky until heavily laden with fish. But that's cool, Clint also designs dories ... and Paul's lovely RYD 12.6 has that flat bottom feel and ...

Richard

Daddles

26th August 2009, 01:53 AM

So that's where I'se at kiddies - confused :doh:

Not really. I'm getting there. I have three talented designers helping me and the rest of this internet thingy to back me up and the Pat McGuire Maritime Collection at the State Library for published material. I could just shut up and do my research in private but I'm hoping that by being open about it, someone else may have some questions answered as well.

Richard

Daddles

26th August 2009, 01:59 AM

Regarding the Adorindack Guideboats - apart from a shortage of genuine plans, the high bow and stern don't appeal in our windy conditions. The low mid section is intended to allow the use of crossed oars, which I will not be doing and I can't really see the point in lowering the freeboard to allow for something I don't intend to do. Yes, they are a fine boat but I've looked at them and rejected them.

Richard

b.o.a.t.

26th August 2009, 02:43 AM

While on the subject of resurrected threads, Paul - have you set up that intenet site
yet that you were going to have up by the end of May? ... 2008 !!

cheers
AJ

PAR

26th August 2009, 07:47 AM

Oh, hell no, but I've gotten a lot of other stuff done. I thought this was Richard's row boat dream blog. I didn't realize we could add to it . . . :;

keyhavenpotter

26th August 2009, 06:24 PM

Although earlier you dismissed offering by Iain Oughtred, there is one design of his that seems to me to fit your planned use, but yet again Iain has added an optional sailing rig, so perhaps it's a no.

Paul Garside has to be a leading contender with his experience in designing and using row boats on the sea. He seems to feel strongly that a double ended design is important for beach landings in surf. So ok, double ender.

A long thread on the WBF about using a boat from a surf beach came up with good ideas. A strong thread was just how seaworthy the narrow flat bottomed, round sided shape is in these conditions. Such as the Herreshoft and others.

So, double ended, plank keel, rounded sides.

Now it just happens that Iain has a design which is mentioned very little, the Skerrieskiff. It's plank keeled, two planks per side and double ended.

http://www.bootbouwer.nl/oughtredill/skerrieskiff17-01.jpg

http://jordanboats.co.uk/JB/IainO_Catalogue/Skerrieskiff%2015%20&%2017.pdf

Her beam at 4'7" is the same as the Garside boats, Flashboat and Bob.

She is very minimal which I like. Designed for a very fast, low cost build. A group of kids built two in 10 days.

So, I had been thinking it would be an interesting boat to try in my local sea conditions, when one turned up last week on eBay. The builder had removed the sail, the trailer, and the oars. Since I have a trailer, can make a sail and have some spare oars I put in a low bid and won her, on my birthday last week. (Needed cheering up you see).

So here she is

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2516/3857807311_d8291004bc.jpg

So far only managed one short row and she was enchanting. The view looking at the stern delightful. Quite a narrow pointy stern, but lots of buoyancy in the lower stern to give lift in a wave. The builder mentioned how she will surge on a wave, sort of plane on the flat bottom. Another rower I know also mentioned how this form will surge on a wave - quite good fun he said.

Will let you know how things go. Have made the little sail already this week. Adapted MIK's design, hope he does not mind!

Perhaps not quite right, but a good number of features which seem to be required in an inshore coastal rower.

My oars are far too crude and unbalanced for the Skerrieskiff so I too would be grateful for advice on replacements. I rowed an Oughtred Elf with the long thin blades and they seemed perfect.

Brian

Daddles

26th August 2009, 06:51 PM

Good buy there Brian, and on your birthday too, someone's looking after you :2tsup:

Mik's website has some free plans for scoop bladed oars (http://www.sailraid41.com/OAR8FT%20a.pdf).
I've used Jim Michalak's oar plans (http://marina.fortunecity.com/breakwater/274/2003/1101/index.htm#Making%20Oars) to good effect and will probably use them again for the Little Black Dog but stretched out to 8'.

I may have this wrong, but my reading of this rowing caper is that when a boat is designed for both rowing and sailing, you will often find the beam pushed out to improve the sailing characteristics at the expense of the rowing characteristics. As far as beam for a specialist rowboat goes (which is what I'm after), 4' is about the maximum you want. I therefore feel that Iain's boats have been 'compromised' to improve the sailing characteristics. This doesn't mean they don't row well, just that they aren't specialist rowboats. Those who know better, please feel free to set me straight if I have this wrong.

I'm not planning to include any sailing bits in my boat so if the extra beam is a negative, it's probably not worth me building a boat that's had it's rowing compromised to take sail.

Complexity isn't a problem, I'm building my 'quick build' boat now, Mik's Rowboat and expect to exploit her flat water ability to great effect while building the next boat ... whatever it is :D

I find the rest of your comments interesting though. I'll be interested to hear how your Skerrieskiff goes in rough water.

And Paul Gartside is a name I should be looking at eh? Thanks for the tip. :wink:

Richard

thumpergman

26th August 2009, 07:32 PM

So that's where I'se at kiddies - confused :doh:
. I could just shut up and do my research in private but I'm hoping that by being open about it, someone else may have some questions answered as well.

Richard

:2tsup: yes im glad your on here because some of us a bit shy, its very good to read others questions and answers

thanks glen

Daddles

26th August 2009, 07:36 PM

Paul Gartside's 'Bob' (http://www.gartsideboats.com/bob.php)- described as an 'open water cruising skiff'. Yes, it has a sail but only for down wind runs.

http://www.gartsideboats.com/pgimages/Bob.JPG

16' long
4' 7" wide

Maybe we are building them wider now.

Clint, you give a nod to Bob in your comments about Drake. Like to comment further?

Richard
damn this research, I was happier when I only had one plan to build :(

Daddles

26th August 2009, 07:39 PM

:2tsup: yes im glad your on here because some of us a bit shy, its very good to read others questions and answers

thanks glen

Thanks Glen :B

Richard

keyhavenpotter

26th August 2009, 08:59 PM

Richard, my take on the beam is this. You need to avoid riggers, but also need a good spread on the oarlocks to give rowing power. So push out the gunnels. Paul's Flashboat and Bob are rowing boats uncompromised yet their beams are the same as Skerrieskiff. I think this shows you are looking for 4'7" ish for a coastal rower.

I guess it's the water line beam that makes Flashboat and Bob pure rowers. Compare theirs to Skerrieskiff. However for surf work experienced people seem to strongly favour plank keel/round hull shapes. Makes sense.

Perhaps Iain's plank is a bit wider? He does describe them as rowing hulls in his blurb. Perhaps the compromise is only small when you have chosen a plank keel for the surf anyway.

The pure rowing form can be very tippy. See this picture by John Hesp of Flashboats launching. Notice the crew almost gunnel down.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2519/3858857050_1bf7abfef5_m.jpg

and how narrow the waterline is

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2513/3858857112_207de0a4c5_m.jpg

No 38 is a Cornish Skiff, very lovely. In the background see how the Flashboats have very narrow water planes.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2508/3858068213_6da7bd2524.jpg

All these pictures are by John Hesp.

When I climb in the Skerrieskiff, she seemed just about steady enough for me!

Brian

jmk89

26th August 2009, 09:38 PM

Just to bring this back to Richard's reality. I remember trying to launch and, more particularly, land boats on Adelaide beaches (esp Glenelg) with my Dad and my maternal Uncle. Although the swell is small, because it is up the gulf, the chop can be fierce and the shore is steep. I remember trying to gybe a heron off Somerton(?) beach - the only way this little black duck could do it was to slide over to the bar and gybe on top of a wave. Rowing out through that chop would not be my idea of fun.:no::o

I suspect ( but I certainly don't know) that because of the chop, getting out may mean that you need a shorter LWL than would be ideal for rowing - you want the bow to rise over waves that are steep but not "thick"; if it is too long, it will push through the wave and half of the briny will be around your ankles before you know it. And chaufeuring water about is not fun!!!

FWIW as a non-rower but someone who has sailed in the waters, I wonder whether the best solution for RIchard will be a boat that copes well with a swell like (LBD (Little Black Dog)) once it is "outside", with a foredeck and coaming to deal with the chop when it is close tothe beach (and a flat bottom). My recollection is that once you are outside the chop, the gulf waters off the western beaches of Adelaide undulate but are not hard work to get through.

Please feel free to ignore these ramblings - I have just finished sampling (by total consumption alone) a bottle from a new case of McLaren Vale's finest and my thoughts may be affected......

m2c1Iw

26th August 2009, 09:51 PM

keyhavenpotter

26th August 2009, 09:57 PM

Here's Paul Gartside's surfdorydesign, as a pointer to purely meeting the surf head on so to speak

http://www.gartsideboats.com/catrow2.php#154

http://www.gartsideboats.com/pgimages/154.jpg

http://www.gartsideboats.com/pgimages/Design154surfdory4.jpg

Brian

jmk89

26th August 2009, 10:03 PM

Mike, perhaps I miscounted the bottles....

Why doesn't the dory rowed by liifesavers have a foredeck and coaming? Then you can add LWL for better rowing and get out through the inshore chop.....

Daddles

26th August 2009, 10:06 PM

Note that there'll only be one idiot rowing this boat and that idiot won't be tackling surf like that :cool:

Mike and Jeremy are correct in imagining that the hardest part will be the first ten metres off shore but let's not go thinking I'll be out there fighting surf, I've got more sense than that.

Your thoughts on a shorter boat are interesting Jeremy.

Richard

keyhavenpotter

26th August 2009, 10:31 PM

http://pa.photoshelter.com/img/pixel.gif
Mike, perhaps I miscounted the bottles....

Why doesn't the dory rowed by liifesavers have a foredeck and coaming? Then you can add LWL for better rowing and get out through the inshore chop.....

and why no holes to let the water out?

will not let me post the link?
Jersey Skiffs

Brian

PAR

27th August 2009, 01:36 AM

b.o.a.t.

27th August 2009, 05:43 AM

FWIW as a non-rower but someone who has sailed in the waters, I wonder whether the best solution for RIchard will be a boat that copes well with a swell like (LBD (Little Black Dog)) once it is "outside", with a foredeck and coaming to deal with the chop when it is close tothe beach (and a flat bottom). My recollection is that once you are outside the chop, the gulf waters off the western beaches of Adelaide undulate but are not hard work to get through.

Then there are these Jersey Skiffs - a bit big for the roof-rack at 17' long
http://intheboatshed.net/2009/06/24/rowing-in-surf-with-windows/

As someone who has occasionally paddled a kayak in it, I agree.
Getting past that small break is the hard (& wet) bit.
Once past that, it is normally fairly civilized.
On the days I've been out in it anyway.
Suggest a relatively full bow & narrow stern offer driest exit & ingress through breaking
waves. The most easily controlled passage anyway, with least risk of broaching.
My kayaks tend to have very fine bows, so are slow to rise. On the other hand, this
makes them less 'bouncy' once out there.

Hey Daddles - want to do an experiment with my Teal one day?
11'6" x 3'7" and a much better row boat than sail boat. Might help clarify issues & wish-list,
even though the winglets will affect its sideways behaviour.
cheers
AJ

Joost

27th August 2009, 07:00 AM

Hello Richard,

Interesting thread!

Perhaps another option is Flint designed by Ross Lillistone (stitch and glue building method):

http://www.baysidewoodenboats.com.au/Flint%20Test%201%20079.jpg

It might fit your requirements at 14'7" x 4'. Apparently this boat has been built at 50 kg using gaboon 6 mm marine ply. One of the design parameters was that it had to handle a steep chop well.

Best regards,

Joost

Daddles

27th August 2009, 10:37 AM

Hello Richard,

Interesting thread!

Perhaps another option is Flint designed by Ross Lillistone (stitch and glue building method):

The problem with Flint Joost, is that transom - when trying to beach her, waves have that square bum to slap at which is why a double ended design is a better choice.

This bit of surf is turning out to be like landing an aeroplane, you've got to do it sometime and nature doesn't really care how you manage it even if you do :oo:

Richard

Daddles

27th August 2009, 10:39 AM

As someone who has occasionally paddled a kayak in it, I agree.
Getting past that small break is the hard (& wet) bit.
Once past that, it is normally fairly civilized.
On the days I've been out in it anyway.
AJ

I was hoping someone who's kayaked out there would chime in. You see a few sea kayaks out there (never rowboats) and I've often wondered where they launch and how ... and what features make the kayak work.

Richard

PAR

27th August 2009, 10:49 AM

Daddles

27th August 2009, 10:50 AM

Yep, the Sea Bright (Jersey skiff) is a well suited option, though likely will hit the weight limit requirement, as I suspect most prospects will. Solo handling a boat off the beach requires a few design elements, but weight is a prime consideration. High ends, low midship freeboard, moderately wide plank keel and fine entry/exit are also considerations for a maneuverable, deep water rowing machine.

This makes me think along the lines of glued lapstrake to keep the weight as low as possible. The first boats that comes to mind are the Gunning Dory and the Chamberlain surf dory. These are specialized Swampscott's.

There are other possibilities, but these jump out right away.

They are the options that keep jumping out at me too though I do wonder if part of that isn't the American influence swamping other country's.

I've got Gardner's 'Building Classic Small Craft' at home from the library at the moment and damn me if it doesn't read differently everytime I look at something, obviously I'm still absorbing stuff and reading with preconceptions (I've never been good at book learning, I'm a hands on learner).

The gunning dory keeps popping up. Serious bit of kit though. So many dories are drawn with sails - are these rowing boats with a sail added because people want one (as is the case with the gunning dory in Gardner's book) or have the designs been widened to take the sail?
Similarly, did I do Iain Oughtred's small boats a disservice earlier - they're all designed to take a sailing rig but which ones are rowboats with a sail?

This makes me think along the lines of glued lapstrake to keep the weight as low as possible.
Is this to avoid the interior framing you see on a lot of boats?

I've been thinking of lapstrake, tank front and rear for safety but also to stiffen the hull, central seating for the hooman beasties plus stowage.

Solo handling a boat off the beach requires a few design elements, but weight is a prime consideration. High ends, low midship freeboard, moderately wide plank keel and fine entry/exit are also considerations for a maneuverable, deep water rowing machine.

Noted

Richard

Daddles

27th August 2009, 10:51 AM

Richard, if you space out the station molds on RYD-12.6 out from16" to 20" you end up with a 16' 6" boat. The boat would be leaner, so easier to propel, not much heavier and would still have all of her qualities.

Mate, I was hoping you'd say that! It's something I'd considered but didn't want to suggest it, me not knowing anything about design.

Richard

b.o.a.t.

27th August 2009, 11:30 AM

I was hoping someone who's kayaked out there would chime in. You see a few sea kayaks out there (never rowboats) and I've often wondered where they launch and how ... and what features make the kayak work.

Richard

The main feature that makes a kayak "work" is it is fully decked with a spray deck seal.
For getting out through a break anyway. Think in terms of a submarine on the surface.
After that, there are helpful discourses about boat shape at http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/
http://www.greenval.com/jwinters.html

Usual juggling act. If the boat is full enough at the ends to rise over surf :),
it will be a wearying beast as it pitches to every little ripple. :(
This can be alleviated by placing volume above the waterline at the ends. :)
But then you start increasing windage. :(

Big attraction of kayaks & canoes is their extreme portability, and the fact that, facing
forwards, you can see the rock just before you hit it, rather than just afterwards.

Launching.... depends upon load, cockpit size, agility & stability. My little boats are
light & not all that stable, and I'm not agile. So I climb in with boat barely aground in
the shallows, then shuffle my way afloat on my knuckles.

Having said all that, the most fun I ever had in (small) surf was in a 16' canadian.
Have paddled several km on several occasions in nasty chop without getting wet.
Just have to slow down enough to allow the bow to rise.
cheers
AJ

m2c1Iw

27th August 2009, 11:49 AM

Richard,
I'm not an avid rowing enthusiast in fact the idea of rowing to me means I've messed up badly to deserve the pain. :D

Having said that if I were to build one I think it might be this (http://www.duck-trap.com/2002dtw.html)design the transom is gorgeous and I believe the design comes from an area with similar sea conditions. I did not check earlier in the thread maybe it has already been discussed.

The selection process is fun but.

Cheers
Mike

PAR

27th August 2009, 03:15 PM

When it comes to light weight wooden boats, there are only a few ways to go. Glued lapstrake will be the lightest of all methods, if the plank widths are balanced with longitudinal stiffness needs. In other words, you need more then just a couple of strake per side, so you can reduce planking stock thickness, without lose of strength.

Unless you wanted to go composite, which frankly would be marginal at best in this size range without lots of really expensive fabrics. Conventional cold molding is an option, but not especially backyard friendly and costly. Taped seam multi chine will be fairly light, but not as light as cold molded or glued lap.

Another option is the Lindsay Lord method. It's a form of strip planking that I've adapted and modified for several of my designs. The net result is a true cored, sandwich build, but no 'glass fabrics are used, rather polyester or modified acrylic fabrics, which have much higher elongation properties. Boats built like this are slightly flexible, which is fine in most power and row boat settings, though not so much with most sailboats.

The Lindsay Lord or Lord/PAR build will be lighter then a glued lap by a small amount, but the flexibility will make comfort in pounding conditions a fair bit easier to endure and also increases durability. Unfortunately, the goo factor is pretty high with this type of build and bright finished hulls aren't possible.

From an ease of building thing, glued lap is the hands down winner. Stretch out RYD 12.6 to the size you need up to about 18' (just station mold spacing now). A small deck at each end and a crushed velvet covered thwart and you're good to go.

Daddles

27th August 2009, 04:12 PM

From an ease of building thing, glued lap is the hands down winner. Stretch out RYD 12.6 to the size you need up to about 18' (just station mold spacing now). A small deck at each end and a crushed velvet covered thwart and you're good to go.

I think we've got our winner :D

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=73054&d=1210239956

She's got the flat bottom for beach landings.
Doesn't have the overhanging ends of some of the dories - considering we're talking small surf, not five footers, is that a problem?
I like the round bilges.
Lapstrake is my preferred building method.
You can keep your crushed velvet :p

Visually, I've yet to see a dory I like the look of and sadly, the same can be said of Oughtred's beach boats - I like the round hull and lots of planks. That's personal taste mind you, not a reflection on the boats. I also like the engineering advantages of lapstrake - as Paul says, stiff and light.

How long should she be? Limit the length to the max I can get out of two sheets of gaboon scarfed together or go for a wee bit more length and do the extra join?

You'll also note she's a lot like Clint's Drake but with a flat bottom :wink:

Richard

jmk89

27th August 2009, 05:18 PM

I think we've got our winner :D

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=73054&d=1210239956

She's got the flat bottom for beach landings.
Doesn't have the overhanging ends of some of the dories - considering we're talking small surf, not five footers, is that a problem?
I like the round bilges.
Lapstrake is my preferred building method.
You can keep your crushed velvet :p

Visually, I've yet to see a dory I like the look of and sadly, the same can be said of Oughtred's beach boats - I like the round hull and lots of planks. That's personal taste mind you, not a reflection on the boats. I also like the engineering advantages of lapstrake - as Paul says, stiff and light.

How long should she be? Limit the length to the max I can get out of two sheets of gaboon scarfed together or go for a wee bit more length and do the extra join?

You'll also note she's a lot like Clint's Drake but with a flat bottom :wink:

Richard

Looks like the winner to me. So finish LBD and make the stretch 12.6. Just don't forget teh fore and aft decks and coamings to keep the gulf waves outside the boat!

PAR

27th August 2009, 10:26 PM

You really shouldn't have all the plywood joints stacked over each other on the hull. So you might as well make it as long as you want, because you'll have to stagger some of the joints. If it's stretched much over 15', she should get some more sheer, both sweep and height other wise it'll look flat and be a wet ride.

Boatmik

28th August 2009, 11:37 AM

Howdy, I have few qualms about modern glued joints stacked over each other. Use that in the Eureka to keep all the buttstraps in a neat line midships.

(I know you probably will want to scarf Richard - I won't talk you out of it!)

I think not lining up the butts is a holdover from trad building where the joins were much weaker than the surrounding timber.

In high strength applications like spars or foils I will generally flip things over to make sure the joins don't all line up, but that just takes a few seconds.

Additionally, for the stresses the rowboat hull is under it won't make any difference.

MIK

PAR

28th August 2009, 12:39 PM

I agree Michael, from a technical stand point it shouldn't matter one bit. Then there's the little bastard that stands on my right shoulder. He's the whiner of the lot, but usually has a good point or two, which causes me to lose sleep.

I now have several repair jobs with substantial time on them, where the hood ends of lap strake boats have been replaced. Each has the joints slightly staggered (okay, it was listening a little), but they are basically right over each other, butt joints, painted and holding up fine. The little guy on my other shoulder is laughing his brains out.

Daddles

28th August 2009, 01:44 PM

Scarf two sheets of ply together, then scarf half a sheet on the end (see Mik, I am using that 's' word). This gives you the length to build the boat. Work from either end of the sheet for adjacent planks which gives alternating join locations. As the planks get longer from the garboard to the sheer, the joins migrate slightly and with the excess length in the planking stock anyway, it's not hard to have joints all over the place so that instead of the boat breaking in half because I'm a hamfisted clutz, it'll be falling apart all over the place :doh:

Paul, will I have to loft the boat or have you done that part of the job? I don't mind lofting, it adds an interesting 'nother element to the job (we built the motor cruiser from tables of coordinates) but it'd be nice to know what I'm in for. :wink:

Richard

PAR

28th August 2009, 09:16 PM

I don't offer full size patterns on small craft, mostly because I don't have a 5' wide printer, but also because paper, like wood has a grain and stretches and shrinks with moisture content and especially when it goes through a printer. This makes them inaccurate. Of course Mylar patterns are very accurate, but damn costly. Other "films" can be used to improve accuracy, but these are also fairly costly.

With my plans, you'll get a full set of lines, offsets, construction drawings and a date with my sister.

I recommend lofting for several reasons, but an experienced builder could loft directly to the station molds, which I often do. Since this is a stretch job, it should be lofted to have the changes in heights and widths to pull templates from. The stations are still the same, but nothing else is.

Given 6 mm plywood with an 8:1 scarf, you short yourself 4" compared to a butt joint. This means you can build to a length of about 15' 9" as opposed to 15' 5" if scarfs are used.

The upper strakes will probably "nest" fairly well, so you can flip them end for end to stagger the joints, but the lower strakes will have some "shape" to them and these may require the plywood be canted at the joint. This is common of lapped hulls.

dopeydriver

28th August 2009, 09:42 PM

What about this one , a proven design , tough , long lasting , this one is 152 years old , and self righting .
Regards Rob J.

PAR

29th August 2009, 08:59 AM

What design are you referring Dopey?

m2c1Iw

29th August 2009, 09:43 AM

Think it might be this (http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=103493) one, Rob still has his L plates on. :D

Nice pics probably a tad bigger than Richard is imagining me thinks.

dopeydriver

29th August 2009, 10:01 AM

Yes , I was refering to the lifeboat , but under oars.
I have a photo of it during a rescue re-inactment at Portland , during the Admella regatta .
I tried to post a photo , but was unsuccessful.
It can be capsized , filled with water , and self right and empty within 30 seconds or so.
I'll try again , in another post.
Regards Rob J.

dopeydriver

29th August 2009, 10:05 AM

I hope this works.
Sorry , looks like it didn't , again.
Rob J.

dopeydriver

29th August 2009, 10:23 AM

Another try.
Rob J.
Well , again I was unsuccessful , I'm sorry.
The reason I attempted to post it was to show that row boats were built for extreme conditions many years ago , and that we can possibly learn from their design.
These lifeboats were built using diagonal planking , with an impregnated canvas between the layers.
They proved to be extremely strong , and long lasting.
It was just a thought.
Regards Rob J.

m2c1Iw

29th August 2009, 10:34 AM

Rob,
Have a read of this thread (http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=78760)it may help you, it's like riding a bike one day it clicks. :D

dopeydriver

29th August 2009, 10:41 AM

Thanks for that , thats the way I'd been doing it , I believed.
But on checking , the photo is 2.2 MB , so maybe the system just couldn't handle it.
Rob J.

dopeydriver

29th August 2009, 10:47 AM

Another try.
Still didn't work.
I'm gonna leave it at that.
See ya.
Rob J.

PAR

29th August 2009, 01:44 PM

I was able to view the boat and it clearly misses the requirements on several points, but is a nice craft as it is.

keyhavenpotter

1st September 2009, 06:12 PM

Richard, it's great that you have sorted a good design for your needs. Just thought I would update how the Skerrieskiff was coming along.

Finished making a sail for the little Skerrieskiff and rigged her yesterday. Looking at her underwater profile it does look very much a rowing hull. This picture illustrates the quite narrow waterlines and the plank keel. The rudder covers the very seaworthy stern.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2490/3876715529_d02e639a90.jpg

Here from above. 4'7" beam giving good spread for the oarlocks. The sail I made is a very simple one, with no battens so it will roll up very neatly, something which has to be helpful in a 50/50 boat.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2489/3877507646_4ffa3f6ff2.jpg

The little Dacron sail newly raised, looking quite nice to say it cost so little. Just look at that lovely Oughtred sheerline.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2439/3877507052_6c30480c96.jpg

Brian

KJL38

1st September 2009, 07:49 PM

Warning long post.

The reinvigoration of this thread made me decide to do some performance testing on my Adirondack Guideboat in conditions, so with 30 knot westerly winds forecast and a strong outgoing tide I took it to “The Cut” at Bunbury.

Firstly a bit of background on myself, I’m a paddler not a rower so although I have kayaking experience in whitewater up to grade 5 and seakayaking in conditions on exposed coasts my rowing experience prior to launching the guideboat last year was limited to a few times in rowing shells as a teenager. I had only used the guideboat on flatwater other than an upstream eddyhopping trip on my local river when it was high.

“The Cut” is a man made channel where the estuary flows into the ocean that was created when construction of the inner harbour closed off the original channel. I launched from the boat ramp which is in a sheltered corner just inside the estuary, rowed out into the channel and measured the wind at 16 knots on my handheld anemometer. Later gusts were stronger, at least 20 and possibly up to 25 knots but I wasn’t willing to put down the oars to take more readings. The outgoing tide flows in excess of 10km/h in the middle of the channel and the wind and waves were going in the opposite direction.

I spent an hour mostly doing circuits rowing out in the relatively sheltered water along the edge until halfway out then heading out into the middle and surfing back in. Waves were steep due to the current and generally up to 3’ (they reached the horizon) but I had one “Oh …..” moment when a 4’ wave beginning to crumble came through. The boat rode it bow first without taking on a drop. The boat also took the 3’ waves beam on without taking on water while remaining horizontal. I’m very impressed with how well the cross section and freeboard are optimised so it only begins to tilt if the wave would otherwise come over the gunwale. If I let the boat drift freely it would lie beam on to the wind and waves, and if there was much wind you couldn’t turn into the wind. The current may have had something to do with this as normally on flatwater I can trim it by moving the anchor and chain to make it leecock or weathercock.

Rowing out was extremely hard work so by the end of the hour I had blisters and was drenched in sweat. Coming back in was another matter entirely as the boat surfed very easily and the trailing oars work very well as sweeps and I never broached although I did come close a few times. It was almost surreal as it’s the first time I’ve surfed a craft where you are looking backwards and you can see the wave rearing up behind you but it doesn’t get any closer even though you can’t row to get away as the water is moving faster than you can move the oars. It’s like you are moving fast and staying in one place both at the same time, a bit like kayak surfing a standing wave on a river. The top speed I hit on the GPS was 15.9 km/h which I achieved while I wasn’t rowing. Adding in the speed of the outgoing current would give a water speed of over 25 km/h or double my top flat water rowing speed in the boat. All in all a lot of fun with a bit of fear thrown in, but I’d feel much safer in a kayak.:U

KJL38

1st September 2009, 07:55 PM

So what did I learn from my testing session that is relevant to choosing a boat?

With the size boats being considered, unless you have a sheltered location to launch I think it will be difficult to solo launch in winds above 10 knots and probably dangerous above 15 knots. The original size of PAR’s design might be easier but it’s still a lot of area for the wind to catch so launching from a windswept beach may be inadvisable. Driving with it on the roof was unnerving in the wind too.

As PAR said build it light, it makes it much easier to man handle it alone. My guideboat is aprox 25kg and if I built another one it would be lighter. Strength doesn’t seem to be a problem for recreational rowing and the only damage mine has sustained is a few chips along the chine from hitting rocks. I’ve inadvertently rammed the side of a moored boat where my 25kg of paulownia met about a ton of jarrah planking at speed and bounced off the rubber strip unharmed. Several times an oar has hit a rock during the catch phase and the whole boat is thrust violently sideways but hasn’t sustained damage. In my opinion the only part that needs to be strong is the rowlock/seat/footrest section as this is where the force is concentrated.

Avoid cross handed rowing. It’s easy to adjust to on flatwater but when you are urgently manoeuvring in rough conditions it’s a PITA. I may get a pair of 7ft oars to use when it’s rough.

For use on a rough ocean I would deck over as much of the boat as possible with sealed bulkheads and fit an electric bilge pump. It probably won’t be needed but if you do swamp it will make life a lot easier.

Cross section shape, this is difficult to judge. The narrower plank keel of a guideboat combined with deadrise gives a hull that remains horizontal while beam waves pass but has low initial stability which makes launching harder. PAR’s design will be much more stable but would rock more on beam waves. Probably not enough to dip the gunwale so probably a better choice than the guideboat for beach launching. I’m currently reading “The Whaleboat a study of design, construction and use from 1850 to 1970” by Willits D Ansel and the whaleboats tend to have a cross section somewhere between the other two designs but lack a wide plank keel so may not keep the boat upright on land.

I think you need plenty of flare in the ends to help going over waves and to give a dry ride.

Length, if you want speed in moderate conditions then probably around 16ft, if you want ease of handling on shore and handling in rough conditions then the original length of PAR’s could be better. I don’t think downwind surfing runs need the extra length as you are at planning speed and the wider flat area would help planning.

This is all stuff off the top of my head so I hope it makes sense to people. I thought I should write it while it was still fresh. Please point out anything I’ve got wrong.

Kelvin