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View Full Version : 18' (5.5m) Sail boat - Which one?



Aberdeen
25th May 2008, 02:16 PM
What suggestions are there for a mainly sail powered boat around 18' (5.5m) ?

Criteria: Usable by someone new to sail; relatively easy construction; relatively inexpensive construction; doesn't need a crew of lots of people, maybe 2 - 3 persons; examples in real life can be seen in the Adelaide area..... usable in local Gulf waters and lakes (if S.A. ever gets any water in our lakes again); capable of taking probably 5 on board.

(No Daddles, I haven't turned..... just looking at alternatives before I embark further on the Vixen)

What sort of experience does one need to operate a craft of that size or should 'previous experience' be advisable ?

I was brought up with power boats - but with fuel prices doing what they are doing I thought I had better at least consider options.....
Need to be comfortable with where I am going with my next build before the end of May 2008.... after that it is too late to turn back....

m2c1Iw
25th May 2008, 02:52 PM
Aberdeen,
Does it need to be self righting and with or without cabin?

Mike

Aberdeen
25th May 2008, 02:57 PM
Mike
Preferably untippable :)

Self righting and cabin to get out of the sun, cook the fish and let the ladies have some privacy if and when required if you know what I mean.

The 'Vixen' is still a GO.... but before I GO any further I need to consider if this is the way to GO in the present climate so to speak..... next week I get on with her UNLESS a good option or persuasive argument presents itself....... but have to be careful....just don't want Daddles to think he has... corrupted my Hartley mind too much.... :?

NB - I have an ex work collegue that makes sails as a hobby/therapy

m2c1Iw
25th May 2008, 03:13 PM
NB - I have an ex work collegue that makes sails as a hobby/therapy

Ah now thats a handy thing to know:rolleyes::D

Originally thinking you couldn't go past Miks GIS for the reasons you listed but all boats are a compromise hence my questions. Needs some thought but if you go just little longer there are many alternatives but then you start offsetting expense and build difficulties.
Local examples could also be a bit limiting especially in ply. I assume you have considered NIS (http://www.nisboats.com/mainpages/plans.html)

Cheers

Aberdeen
25th May 2008, 03:47 PM
Mike
I have so many links to different boat building sites it would probably take me 6 months to ferret out those of interest.... :rolleyes:

I hope to spend the remainder of this first week of holidays narrowing down things a bit.... worse than a menu at the local chinese restaurant for choices........

Norfolk Island is one of the first I want to re-visit tonight... nothing much on tele anyway....... but do like the look of the Sharpie 18

Limitations: shed is only 18 x 24 feet leaving little room for machinery to build one.... can't have a bigger shed until I retire (approval already given by SWMBO)

Daddles
25th May 2008, 03:57 PM
Glen, get together with me and spend some time in Redback. Learn to sail (or spend more time under sail if you can) and get used to it.

The reason I'm suggesting this is that I'm beginning to suspect that while I like sailing, it doesn't have that magic bite it has for some, hence my constant mucking about with row boats and my completely ignoring paddles - the magic for me seems to involve oars. I took my wee boatie over to Stansbury and in perfect sailing conditions, spent as much time under oars as I did under sail :doh:

In your case, maybe a putt putt or a pure power boat is the go. You'll have more room in the cabin in a power boat than a sail boat.

If you're really serious about trying sail on that scale, a mate of mine has an 18ft f/glass trailer sailer that he doesn't get to use much because his missus discovered (after much trying) that she doesn't like boating. I'm sure we could get together with him and go out in the gulf one afternoon and to be honest, the two of us coercing him into giving it a go would be welcomed by him more than anything else.

Sailing (and probably all forms of boating) is very much in the 'you have to do it before you know' camp and I reckon gathering experience is more important than looking at plans. Hell, you could even make me an offer for Sixpence :wink:

Richard

Aberdeen
25th May 2008, 04:11 PM
Am I wrong in thinking (having just spent some time looking at sail boat pictures) that the work involved in sailing is far greater than turning key?

Rigging - hanging over the side - raising & lowering those keel thingies - winding chrome handled ratchets... etc......

Started to consider my poor old back and it's continual problems, hmmm..... might go for a stroll along the coast during the week and browse some of the yacht places.... West Beach, Outer Harbour and the like....

Oh I hate indecision........

Have been to NIS now off to Glen-L http://www.boatdesigns.com/departments.asp?dept=2

Daddles
25th May 2008, 04:30 PM
You get an 18 footer and you're dealing with standing rigging, ropes and stuff and looking at half an hour setting up to go sailing.

You go for any boat that needs rigging to hold the mast up (any sloop for example) and you increase the mucking about before you hit the water.

Now some people like all the mucking about with wires and ropes and stuff, but methinks you're a bit more laid back.

Sixpence is being set up to use a drop in mast (oh okay, two of them in this case) and simple sail that takes a few minutes to raise. She's 14' and will carry a couple of passengers in reasonable comfort.

The GIS is 15' and uses a similar mast and sail - you're on the water in minutes. The difference being, you're sitting either on the floor or on the gunwale, not relaxing on those wide, comfy seats. Mind you, the GIS will also sail rings around Sixpence.

The point is, in that 14-16 foot range, you can get boats that can hit the water quickly. Go beyond that and you've got to accept a lot of mucking about. The decision is then do you want a fast, exciting boat to sail that can also be sailed with calm decorum (such as the GIS) but accept that your missus will be sitting on the floor (not her style I would have thought), or do you accept a more sedate but more stately ride - do you buy the E-type Jag or the Mk2 saloon (the comparison is deliberate because just as the Mk2 could be damned quick, so can the more stately boats).

I reckon something like Sixpence would be ideal. You can sail her quickly and easily, you can leave the sails behind and fire up the outboard. Your missus will be comfortable and dry and you can still play boy racer but don't expect to challenge Mik in his GIS. Even the 'complication' of the extra sail (the mizzen) was chosen to make life easier on the water.

Richard

Daddles
25th May 2008, 04:34 PM
The other thing to remember is that although boats shrink once they hit the water (that ocean liner in the garage turns out to be rather tiny on the water), the smaller and easier a boat is to use, the more likely you are to use it. Lots of trailer sailers spend their weekends in the driveway because it's just too much like hard work getting them out on the water. Mind you, if you have a permanent mooring ...

Richard

m2c1Iw
25th May 2008, 05:01 PM
If you're really serious about trying sail on that scale, a mate of mine has an 18ft f/glass trailer sailer that he doesn't get to use much because his missus discovered (after much trying) that she doesn't like boating. I'm sure we could get together with him and go out in the gulf one afternoon and to be honest, the two of us coercing him into giving it a go would be welcomed by him more than anything else.


Good idea, in the same line of thinking a good old Hartley TS16 you can pick up cheap these days might need a bit of fixing up but is a forgiving boat with a bit of comfort to learn in. After having a play decide on the boat to build.

We'll have you totally confused before the day is out:D

Mike

bitingmidge
25th May 2008, 05:17 PM
Am I wrong in thinking (having just spent some time looking at sail boat pictures) that the work involved in sailing is far greater than turning key?

Ahh but the rewards are far greater too.

Gliding silently along takes some beating. Yes, there's work to do, but the journey really is a fabulous experience! (mostly!)

Cheers,

P

Aberdeen
25th May 2008, 07:33 PM
3 in 1

Daddles:
....The point is, in that 14-16 foot range, you can get boats that can hit the water quickly...... but accept that your missus will be sitting on the floor (not her style I would have thought),...

Size does matter to some women! As you are aware the Lady won't go out in my little 3.3m "because the sharks are a lot bigger than that!" so 14 feet wouldn't cut the mustard either.... been there, tried that... that's why I was told to build at least an 18 foot boat :o

Bitingmidge:
Gliding silently along takes some beating.

I love the idea of peace and quiet - old age coming on. I was only commenting to a cousin yesterday over in Esperance W.A. at how I envy her ability to pop out to the farm and 'get away from it all - peace, quiet, back with nature.

So some might say "So why do you want to take the wife out onto the sea with you then if you want p & q?"
Good question! But SWMBO likes to feel part of the equation, besides if she does then I can build a boat without any problems :wink: Most likely, after one or two outings and other than smooth seas, it will probably be.... "enjoy your day out and you can clean the fish when you get home"

Tranquility is my aim and yes, sail, like gliding, is the ultimate way to achieve that.... but I have to consider the body stresses as well....

Mike
We'll have you totally confused before the day is out:D

Mate, that doesn't take much to do at the best of times!
The truth is I'm a classic Libran.... if a decision doesn't have to be made immediately then it can wait, and wait and wait... until a decision is no longer required !

Boatmik
25th May 2008, 07:54 PM
Good idea, in the same line of thinking a good old Hartley TS16 you can pick up cheap these days might need a bit of fixing up but is a forgiving boat with a bit of comfort to learn in. After having a play decide on the boat to build.

We'll have you totally confused before the day is out:D

Mike

Mike's advice is really good. Pick up a TS16 in working order - about $2500 to 3 is about right for an OK one. Plan to do almost no work on it then sell for around the same after a year. Always go for a test sail - it is the only way to make sure everything is there and that it works. Not self righting, but hard to knock over.

About the only boat that comes close to simplifying all the rubbish rigging that impedes the actual use of the boat and has some method for raising and lowering the mast easily is Bolger's Long Micro. Sails well, masts can be swung up and down, self righting - though it has a draft of around 15" (from memory). But I think you will think it is a box. But you can arrive at the launch ramp and be sailing away in 10minutes if you don't stuff around.

This is the little one 16' that has as much sprawling and sleeping room as many boats twice the length.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1329/961111154_2084e6e10c.jpg

One that is not quite self righting but also hard to knock over is the second smallest Selway fisher highlander. It has more conventional rig options too - but they are Ok if you like to spend most of an hour setting up the boat on the launching ramp.

http://www.selway-fisher.com/High18p1.jpg
http://www.selway-fisher.com/Dayboat.htm

MIK

b.o.a.t.
25th May 2008, 09:47 PM
Core Sound 17 has most of the features you are after, with an optional cuddy/dodger for the loo. http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/cs17.htm
They crop up a bit on open boat cruising blogs & the like.
http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/cs17plane.JPG

Otherwise... I was going to say the same things about the TS16 as have already been said. Meets all the criteria listed. Especially as a relatively cheap first-time suck-it-and-see boat. It is a -big- 16footer, & stays big out on the water. 100kg of me can walk around the gunwales without terrorfying the passengers.

Had one for 3 or 4 years. Sold it because it was 'too big' & took too long to get in the water. Used it as a power boat (6hp Johnnie) as often as sail. Cruise all day on 20L juice at around 8kmh.

Best of all from your point of view, it is still a HARTLEY !!

Things to change about it to make it more "beginner-friendly".

I found that the long-boomed mainsail kakes the boat a handful in any sort of wind. :o At the very least it needs a reefing point just above the bottom batten. Maybe a second one above the second batten. But your mate should be able to do those for you cheap & easy. (I had no such contacts..)

I also got the irrits with the amount of rigging & fiddling setting it up & pulling it down. Lost count of the number of times I toyed with the idea of turfing the rig with its stays & vang & outhaul & downhaul & fiddly sail-tracks & etc & etc & etc. :~

If I'd had the means & the building experience I now have, I'd have cured all the above problems by turning my TS16 into a yawl with stayless masts.... put the big stick in a big hole up front, hoist the big sail, tie it off. Unroll the little sail from around its stick, put that in a little hole out back, tie it off. Go sailing. (Core Sound has this ease of use built-in.)

cheers
AJ

Boatmik
26th May 2008, 12:58 AM
Howdy AJ,

Is the Core Sound self righting.

I know none of the others I mentioned are except for the Micro. The coresound has a good reputation.

MIK

b.o.a.t.
26th May 2008, 03:47 PM
Howdy AJ,

Is the Core Sound self righting.

MIK


Don't know MIK. Looking at the amount & location of buoyancy possible in
the line drawings & photos, I guess it could be made pretty hard to kill.
Wide decks, under-deck blocks, full length seat tanks, under-floor tanks, light & buoyant masts...
sounds pretty dry to me.
cheers
AJ

Boatmik
26th May 2008, 04:02 PM
I do too, but whether it is self righting not was the original criterion - so a useful question I think.

We know the TS16 isn't - but at the same time we are both recommending it! But we both caveated the statements too.

The Micro is but not everyone likes the looks - I admire them greatly and have seen people who hate the looks reform - when they have seen the process of one being built and then sailing.

At least some of the Coresounds do use water ballast too but I don't know the status of each boat.

Best wishes
MIK

bitingmidge
26th May 2008, 04:40 PM
:D:D:D



http://www.graingerdesigns.com.au/stock-plan-detail-145.php
:D:D:D
P

Aberdeen
26th May 2008, 09:18 PM
Oh decisions, decisions.......

Going up to see the good folk at Duck Flats Wooden Boats on Thursday I think.... but don't tell Ted.... if they know I'm coming they might lock the gate, turn out the lights and make out no one is home......

:o

Tony Hunt
27th May 2008, 03:54 PM
It sounds like the cabin version of John Welsford's "Pathfinder" should be on the list too.

http://users.actrix.co.nz/pete.sue/Pathfinder%20Kaiarahi/email%20mar%2008%20201.jpg

Aberdeen
27th May 2008, 06:22 PM
Just as a little aside from the normal..... there was sail in my family tree many years ago...... great granddad built the 'Lady Angus' 42' 6" cutter when he was about 82 yrs old, the family mainly fished from Edithburgh and Kangaroo Island in Sth Oz.


Plus just found this little gem in the SA Police Gazettes of 1932 - Just love the description of some of a great uncles stolen property from his boat.....
The initiative in those days was remarkable.... make things from whatever is laying around.....

By the way if you find any of the items listed let me know :U I'd say the sails etc were made by my father

STOLEN

OSBORNE.-Between the 31st August and the 3rd September,1932, from a fishing cutter on the foreshore, a linen duck mainsail, size 20ft. x 17ft. x 13ft. x 10ft., made of 3ft. wide duck, seam in centre, two rows of reef points, four single 4in. blocks; a tiller made from wheat truck handle; two gratings, size 2ft. 6in. x lft. 4in., for covering well, made of oregon; a boat hook made of iron with a mallee stick handle-total value £5, the property of LEWIS HARTLEY
ANGUS; identifiable

mcarthur
28th May 2008, 01:43 PM
Look at a Jarcat 5 or Jarcat 6 as well. There's a number active in S.A., and a very active owners network (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jarcats/).

Robert

Aberdeen
28th May 2008, 03:38 PM
Hey Robert, you trying to give me extra work !

Then I'd have to build 2 hulls...... but then again a lot narrower so I could do one at a time in the shed and still have plenty of room to move around them.... :cool:

Then I could join them together outside under the BIG pergola..... food for thought.... I had better look deeper at that idea.....

Vernr
28th May 2008, 03:40 PM
Yep!!....I also like the Jarcats.....the J6C is very close to the top of my 'next build' list!!
......like Aberdeen I love the Hartley 'range'.......built a TS16 20 years ago......currently restoring/re-modelling a 17ft powerboat hull....but being semi-retired have to look at running costs.....done the 'sailing boat thing'.....the J6C offers an easy build, stable platform, comfortable over-nighter/weekender that would be very economical to run.

Aberdeen
28th May 2008, 07:19 PM
Thanks for that Vern
But what are they like for handling by a novice sail person ?
Both the TS16 and the other one....... getting to old for too much effort.... of course you have a couple more years on me :) but the healthy lifestyle down there on the east coast would balance that out !

Any idea on what powers the cat in the thumbnail ?

Daddles
28th May 2008, 07:36 PM
The TS16 is just a ruddy great big dinghy. One of the blokes I did the boat building course with had to give up racing one because he didn't fit under the boom :oo: The TS18 would be a better choice methinks.

I've got a mate who was very keen on the Jarcats and I never really understood why until I saw one in real life - you can play football in that cabin :oo: In the sized boats you're looking at building, if cabin size is important, have a good look at the Jarcats.

The other thing to consider is that your missus isn't a boat person and may prefer the stability of a catamaran to a monohull. The cats don't heel over like the mono's do and that can upset some people. I've a mate who's wife has gone completely off boating because she could never get used to it heeling - that may not be common but it can happen.

Richard

Aberdeen
28th May 2008, 07:45 PM
Size is important Richard :) and I have met a lot of wives who don't like heeling...... sit boo boo sit.... (ouch if SWMBO ever read this)

It also looks like Jarcats can be built in either sail or power ?
Must see if I can locate one this way soon.... time is ticking.

If I do proceed with the Vixen will most likely power it with a Mercruiser I/O diesel..... have a contact who gets used ones now and then less than 2 years old..... never did like outboard motors.........

Vernr
28th May 2008, 11:14 PM
Aberdeen,
I am like you...getting too long in the tooth to be bothered with the effort of sailing again...."been there done that" as they say!!

The TS16 was great (20 years ago) from a sailing perspective......very much like a big dinghy....not for the inexperienced though!!

I have not sailed a Jarcat but know two people who swear by them........very easy to sail and very stable and roomy for cruising. The model pictured is the motorised version (the J6C) recommendation is for 20-25hp outboard. Should be much more economical compared to my Hartley which I am intending to power with a 50HP OB. I have a friend in QLD who has a J6 (sailer) and also uses a 15hp OB....he loves it and uses it as a powerboat 90% of the time. It will handle a good sea and runs all day on around $20 worth of fuel.

I am not wanting to do the sailing 'thing' again so I would opt for the J6 Cabin cruiser version pictured.


Right at this moment though my aim is to get the Hartley finished and onto the water for some serious fishing........I will see how that performs before I make any final decisions.......I also want to build something smaller for use in the large lagoon/river system at my front door............thinking (powered) GIS for that!!!

Aberdeen
29th May 2008, 12:38 AM
Vern at least I have my little 10'6" for those backwaters and river systems ....... The bigger one will be focussed on that water with salt added....

A valid comment you made about aging and sailing.... unless one has the background from a younger age it might not be the best option in some cases as the body wearies ??? What was that about teaching old dogs new tricks.. ?

The 18' (whatever the style and propulsion) is I hope, destined to be around for many, many years. The more I learn about the sail side of boating the more I realise that maybe, just maybe, when/if I get to 70yrs + I might not be as able to handle sail like I would be able to just turn a key :(

All the best with your 'reno' and hope to see the progress over time.

I will still sus out the Jarcats as they have lit a flame of interest....

cookiesa
8th October 2008, 02:20 PM
Just as a side thought whilst much younger myself I wouldn't write off the sailing just yet.

Sailing can be a fast paced with lots of effort and constant trimming... or laid back looking up at the sails with your foot on the tiller slipping along nicely.

To get the the best out of the boat takes constant work, to move it along nicely takes very little real effort.

Even with the "conventional" rig of a sloop (Big mainsail and a headsail) these can be made very simple to sail. (Such as a small boom on the headsail and mount it on a track... as you tack it automatically changes side for you).

The winches are to make things easier, once you get the hang of it on the size boat your talking (I have cruised and raced on yachts up to 80ft) you will find you can trim the jib almost all the way by hand, a few turns of the winch and your done. (It could be done without a winch too, they just make it easier)

An afternoon reading a couple of "how to sail" type books and you will have all the info you need to make the boat go, stop and turn, maybe not to racing standards but who cares!

viola52
9th October 2008, 04:12 PM
I don't know if Aberdeen is still looking Cookiesa, but it was an interesting discussion. I had similar criteria, and for various reasons chose a 'modern' fast boat for my first. My sons like to race/sail fast and my wife and I liked the idea of a cuddy. I chose the Mike Waller TS540 as a modern solution to the old Hartley aims...and I liked her lines a lot more. Construction method seems more rational too. Nice to be able to speak to the designer, he's very helpful.

Fair Dink
10th October 2008, 08:07 PM
What inmmediately comes to mind are Mike Waller's TS 540 and TS 5.4, depending on type of construction


The Green Island 18 is an open boat but has a good safety margin with water ballast if desired.

You might also look at Barrie Armstrong's Redfin 520.

I don't suppose a Jarcat 5 or 6 appeals?

By the way, these are all Brisbane designs.

Fair Dink
10th October 2008, 08:53 PM
Or, for a French touch, What about this?

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/vivier/beniguet/index.htm

cookiesa
10th October 2008, 08:56 PM
That's a nice looking boat..... only problem is it is missing a hull?

:)

Cat for me!

Fair Dink
11th October 2008, 10:03 AM
It is a very good looking boat I think it rivals a Grey Seal in 'saltyness'.

I'm bowled over by the plan prices (which are in US$)

This shows what grea tvalue Mr Storer and Mr Lillistone are offering - encouraging the amateur boatbuilder, not just 'flogging plans'

Aberdeen
7th January 2009, 09:05 PM
DADDLES are you there?
Save me!
I'm thinking of going back to plan B with the 15' SCAMP :o