Roofracking Canoes and small boats

[Boatmik]

As we have a thread devoted to trailers
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=72253

Here is one for roofracks. It was prompted by Nick Pullen who is building a canoe.
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=747172#post747172


But really, I am very happy with the Paulownia timber I used. It is light, easy to glue and very easy to sculpt/sand... I highly recommend anyone looking for timber to contact whitewood....

As always, hindsight is a wonderfull thing. I would like to build another Eureka one day, knowing what i know now, and just taking my time and be a perffectionist, building a showboat... But for now, this one is really just for some fun paddling. And im fairly happy with the outcome so far.

Also, how do you recommend transporting the Canoe? I have read a few Canoeing books and the idea I have is to get some roof racks, cover with some protective high density foam, and strap the canoe upsidown to that, and the tie the ends down to the cars bumpers...

Thanks for all your input guys.

Yes - good bars and good padding!!!!

If you look carefully at this pic you can see that the roofracks are simple wooden bars that have notches that fit over the carefully sculpted French horns on the Renault 16. The only car where such convenience is possible!

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2376/2540265502_59539259f4.jpg
BTW this is one of the few extant photos of my Raceboard (racing windsurfer) that was 3kg lighter than the carbon production boards of the time - and cost about $400 compared to their $4000. I was about to drive from Adelaide to Canberra - about 1200 miles

But we are not talking about compatibility with the French Autoindustry.

We are talking about the tying method.

PADDING - rolled up rags will do. But if you want to take better care of the boat some foam tubes over the roofracks are a good solution. There are two types - a light foamed plastic "noodle" and a heavier duty black neoprene (available from rubber shops) The plastic is pretty weak and dents very easily down to nothing - so the neoprene is best. Plastic can be OK if there are big flat surfaces resting on it.

Both tear reasonably easily - I have seen people use fabric bicycle handlebar tape to great effect - or some of the fabric outdoor use adhesive tapes might work OK too.

LOADING
One of the paradoxical things is that - weight being equal - longer boats are easier to get on roofracks - you put one end up then push the boat up from the back.

TYING - Rope/straps
Rope MUST BE GOOD QUALITY YACHTING ROPE!!! Anything else will stretch during a long - or even a short trip. For most boats it only needs to be 6 or 8mm. Though straps are more fiddly to use - they make it easy for non Knot-tyers (and tired knot-tyers who can make mistakes)

If using a cross bar - it can be very useful to put holes in its ends for the ropes like we did with the PDRacer trailer setup.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3063/2394718965_569fab0c9b.jpg

TYING - Geometry
If the roofracks are a long distance apart then you possibly only need to tie down to them - such as with the Goat pic here - it is just being taken a couple of KM down to the Yarra River for "sea trials". The Goat is light enough to roofrack (built to specs) but the bulk is too much I think.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2230/2540439320_9064c9f93b.jpg

The forward ties should be more vertical rather than sloping forward - and rain would be a problem if it was staying up there for long. Having the hull upside down is best.

If the trip was long I would put a rope to the nose in the same style as with the BETH sailing canoe.

Going back to that first pic - note how the ropes at either end of the boat go down to the sides of the car. This prevents the hull moving from side to side - particularly as you pass large trucks.

It amazes me how much trucks have improved - but an occasional older one coming from the opposite direction on a faster road will make the boat jump violently from side to side. That is the main reason for tying the boat at the ends and also to the racks - the loads can be really high.

Want to know something that no-one else knows about double ended boats? One thing I found with Beth was if the razor sharp stem (a bad idea BTW - it dings too easily) was forward the boat would jump from side to side when driving into a headwind as each gust hit.

Doing the same with the stern forward - which has a half inch wide face - means the sudden changes in wind direction have little effect. Don't do it with a non double ender - just keep the pointy ended rounded or with a small flat - don't go for a point!

Best wishes

Michael Storer

[Boatmik]

BTW - the picture of me with the Renault is a bit historic for other reasons.

I was leaving Adelaide in 1993. And the pic was taken outside the old Duck Flat premises when it used to be in the city. Those were the days.

I was just about to leave Adelaide "permanently"... To drive to the ACT - little was I to know that I would get my windscreen broken by a rock about halfway there at sunset on a Public Holiday.

In WINTER.

When the windscreen got broken I just put all the clothes I had ON - two pairs of pants, three Tshirts, two shirts, two jumpers and wrapped myself in a blanket.

Still got hypothermia!!

I arrived at my partners house (we were getting back together - so lots of excitement and anticipation) to find that she had gone out with friends. So I had a warm bath and drank lots of warm water and went to bed feeling somewhat sad and sorry for myself.

While in Canberra I did a proper plan for Beth, the Raceboard and the Handy Punt.

Because of the slowness of the computers at that time It took about 5 hours to print out a plan partly in graphics mode. Remember that my plans are a bit more detailed than most. But the 286 CPU and Wordperfect just kept pushing my big old canon inkjet along.

MIK

[b.o.a.t.]

I'm really taken by the cradles this bloke has done for his kayaks.
http://www.blueheronkayaks.com/kayak/index.html
you have to click on "cradles" in the menu at left - no direct page URL...

When I paddled white water boats it was easy to get 3 or 4 or 5 on the roof racks - just heap 'em up & tie 'em off.
Bit reluctant to do that with my "good" wooden boats. Can only fit 2 on their flats. Possibly increase that to three this way....

cheers
AJ

[Boatmik]

Howdy AJ,

No pictures of roofracks on that page.

MIK

[yjnb]

Boatmik, click on the cradles link

james

[nickpullen]

Those cradles are impressive... Though, that would be a bit of a handful in crosswinds... maybe something similar for the canoes rails to sit in, stop it form sliding side to side on the roof racks.

Any idea where I can get some rope? I had a look at Bunnings, they have a largish selection. Select something with no stretch?

[b.o.a.t.]

Any idea where I can get some rope? I had a look at Bunnings, they have a largish selection. Select something with no stretch?

For canoes/kayaks, I'm now using webbing straps from Mitre10. Not the expensive ratchet ones, but the simple 20mm ones. Have a SWL rating of 50 or 100kg (can't remember which). Distribute the pressure over a larger area avoiding wearing paint off corners & edges as rope does. Quite happily secured 2 kayaks to the roof of the Honda for the drive from Adelaide to Brissie & back last month.

Have found the same as MIK with kayaks. The bow sections tend to be taller & more slab-sided than the sterns, & the wind pushes them from side to side more. Stern first they ride more sweetly.

With canadians where there's not much difference between ends, I tie off the leading end to each end of the front roof bar to prevent it swinging from side to side. I tie off the trailing end similarly for longer trips.

cheers

[Boatmik]

A polyester that feels good in the hands will usually tie well too.

MIK

[nickpullen]

Have a look at these, http://www.thule.com/Thule/ProductListPage____2235.aspx

Im looking at the Canoe carrier 579, ARB has them for $125 and the roof racks for my car for $208. Looks the business...

[robhosailor]

If you look carefully at this pic you can see that the roofracks are simple wooden bars that have notches that fit over the carefully sculpted French horns on the Renault 16. The only car where such convenience is possible!

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2376/2540265502_59539259f4.jpg
BTW this is one of the few extant photos of my Raceboard (racing windsurfer) that was 3kg lighter than the carbon production boards of the time - and cost about $400 compared to their $4000. I was about to drive from Adelaide to Canberra - about 1200 miles

But we are not talking about compatibility with the French Autoindustry.

We are talking about the tying method.
/.../
TYING - Geometry
If the roofracks are a long distance apart then you possibly only need to tie down to them - such as with the Goat pic here - it is just being taken a couple of KM down to the Yarra River for "sea trials". The Goat is light enough to roofrack (built to specs) but the bulk is too much I think.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2230/2540439320_9064c9f93b.jpg

The forward ties should be more vertical rather than sloping forward - and rain would be a problem if it was staying up there for long. Having the hull upside down is best.

If the trip was long I would put a rope to the nose in the same style as with the BETH sailing canoe.

All that is truth!
Whenever many of modern cars have integrated bumpers with car body - there are no place for tying (look on the second picture!). I can see difficulties for cartopping long boat from that. We can got rising osccilations when boat not tied to the nose and to the back - but there are no place to tying often - many modern cars are suitable for VERY short roof racks and short roof boxes only (like as our new work van Ford Transit Connect for example!). Old cars and vans were more suitable to carry longer pieces (and boats).

Rain? Yes it would be a problem when strong, whenever GIS has flat bottom very suitable to placing on roof rack. This is similar at your Beth - flat bottom is good base on roof rack but coaming is narrower and worse as a base for car topping I think so. Thinking about cartopping Beth on the future I can see her not up side down!

:)

[Boatmik]

Hi Robhosailor,

When going a short distance - where I could predict the weather I would carry her right way up.

But heading off on a multi day tour I would always put here upside down.

She is right way up here because it was a one day drive to Canberra (about 16 hours and I knew it wouldn't rain. And Beth being upright allowed me to set up supports for the sailboard on top.

MIK

[b.o.a.t.]

Rain? Yes it would be a problem when strong, whenever GIS has flat bottom very suitable to placing on roof rack. This is similar at your Beth - flat bottom is good base on roof rack but coaming is narrower and worse as a base for car topping I think so. Thinking about cartopping Beth on the future I can see her not up side down!

:)

New vehicles usually have hooks or eyes under front & rear to secure the car while being shipped. Not always in a good position for roof-racking long boats, but with a bit of ingenuity... :)

As for rain... carry it up-right & make a cover for the cockpit. I did this with builders plastic on an open 16 foot canoe back in the days when it used to rain in Australia. Tied poly-cord around under the gunwale to hold it in place, & taped the edges down with cheapo 50mm PVC tape. I used the masts as a centre-line support to keep it from sagging into the middle. Did the Adelaide-Brisbane-Adelaide trip in wet weather (2,200km each way). Some water got in, but pleasingly little.

cheers
AJ

[robhosailor]

When going a short distance - where I could predict the weather I would carry her right way up.

But heading off on a multi day tour I would always put here upside down.

Hi MIK,
I agree - to much water (leavs, dust, snow...) in cocpit would be a problem :)

[robhosailor]

New vehicles usually have hooks or eyes under front & rear to secure the car while being shipped. Not always in a good position for roof-racking long boats, but with a bit of ingenuity... :)

Those hooks (for towing?) are not symmetrical - it's not comfortable for cartopping



As for rain... carry it up-right & make a cover for the cockpit.

Hmmm... Probably up side down position would be better (easier) than cocpit cover :)

[Wild Dingo]

Awhile back I took my home built canoeythingy from Bunbury to Kalgoorlie... please dont ask why it was a momentary brain fart :doh:

Anyway... I had an old Falcon station wagon at the time with what I thought was a "secure" roof rack setup... you know the sort of thing long shiney bars running the length attached directly to the roof?... anyway I figured old Canoeythingy would be fine up there... so I hoisted her up face down lashed her down with some old rope and headed off up the track... got about 2 miles I guess before I noticed her bum out the side mirror mmmm I thought that cant be good... so I turned into the first servo... mmmm no more rope and that stuff shes tied down with is totally buggared ah well just buy some more eh! So into the servo I go and get the ONLY roll of anything rope like they had... 20 METERS of that horrid nylon type stuff... so I think RIGHT old girl your going nowhere other than Kalgoorlie and started tying her down TIGHT

10 meters later I found my standly knife and cut it off... threw the spare 10 mtres into the back gave canoeythingy a last push and pull no movement YES!!!

And off I went... 20 klicks down the road I watched her sail through the air behind me as a bloody great semi blasted past!!!... mmmm that cant be good I thought as I screeched to a grinding halt and turned around to go get her... if there was anything left that was... so I got back to where she took to being a low flying airplane and shes nowhere to be seen I start scouting around... aahh there she was!... about 50ft into the bush leaning against a blackboy... checked her out a few scratches no seat and a couple of well not really serious dents and holes... easy fix I thought so I carried her back to the car

I laid her down next to the car and pondered the situation while checking the car out to find out why she had decided to become a plane instead of a canoe... mmmm there be the problem I thought as I started walking back up the side of the road to find the right hand rail from the roof rack thing... yep the passing force of the wind from the semi had lifted her enough to rip the sodding thing right of the roof!!! with that gone with the wind so the rope let go of canoeything and she took to the air... so I carried the part back to the car and laid it next to canoeything and really went over the car

Yep the front and rear bumpers were bent out of shape... mmmm this is getting rather crappy thinks I... had myself a cuppa from the thermos would have loved to have had a beer from the esky but was still within the Perth metro area so no beer yet boyo... then it started to hit me... how the bloody blue geezuz was I going to get her to kal now... half my rope was gone only one side to the roofrack that I wouldnt trust with a butterfly let alone a canoe... what to do!!!... mmmm will she fit through the back?... mmmm not to likely he says to himself as he steps out the measurements


another cuppa... more mmmmming... ah buggar it! And I laid the passenger seat right forward and the back seat right down moved the gear around and opened the back door slid her in... mmmmm fair bit sticking out the bum what the heck!! bit of rope and bobs yer uncle... so I pulled the back door DOWN and tied it to the canoe and towbar... goodoh he thinks to himself Im off again... so finish the cuppa and off I go

Trouble was... the damned muffler was right at the back door and man that car had some BAD farts the fumes were shockin!!!... ended up driving from Merridin to Kal with half my body hanging out the window stopping every 20 klicks or so just to BREATH!!

But I got it there... never did paddle her up there ended up bringing her back again some 6 or so months later tied to the top of son in laws panel van... similar deal happened... I got the distinct feeling she did NOT like being on top of a car and far prefered her own wee trailer... a trailer of which I had sold before we moved which had proved to be about one of the less brightest ideas Id had

Sooooo moral of the story is... tying her down DOES NOT necessarily make her stay put :doh:

Hey Mik... When we got married the missus had a TS19 and mate that car had THE best driving seats for long distance Ive ever experienced in ANY vehicle Ive driven over the years... great little buggies :2tsup:

[Boatmik]

Hahaha Dingo ... I had an R19 sometime later.

I bought it for next to nothing and when I found out that the roofracks to fit would cost about half the price of the car (modern cars with no gutters!!!!!) I took some deck eyes from the chandlery where I worked a pop riveted four of them to the roof.

Then I did the wooden roofrack trick again with shaped blocks on the undersides that hugged the profile of the car. and just tied the boat down to the racks.

When going short distances I just tie down to the racks, but when going long distances at high speeds and/or likely to run into semi trailers (so to speak) I will always add ropes at front and back that are tied to the boat in the middle of the rope (not just passed through something - but tied firmly to the boat in the middle then each end goes down to the car as far out from the centreline as possible so looking from the front the ropes are diagonal to stop the boat from moving sideways at the front and rear.

I guess if I had a punt or a transom boat to tie down at the ends (remember that many of my own boats have two pointy ends) then I would set up the ropes at the ends to make sure that they had the diagonal effect - going from the left side of the boat to the right side of the car and vice versa.

Also good quality non stretchy rope is good. I will always use mainsheet grade double braid - good to tie and not too stretchy for the loads carried.

Best wishes
Michael

[nickpullen]

Dingo, thats story has given me the Hibijibies... I can only imagine how I'd feel if I saw my boat flying away...

Ill be strapping mine down to the racks and roping it at the ends. Luckily, I have a 1974 Mazda Capella, gutter moulds and nice chrome bumpers for tieing to.

Old school is Cool.

[Boatmik]

Now Nick,

Despite my carry on about tying boats on so successfully ...

I did once lose a Bolger Nymph off my car roof. I was doing about 110 (that's kilometres, yankees) along the freeway toward Adelaide and as I took the exit chute and decelerated the boat slid out from under the ropes.

So I am doing about 90 and the boat is if front of me doing 100 still and pulling away.

Bit of a graze along one chine a roughened gunwale and the seat popped out.

I have seen a stitch and glue dinghy come off a roof and wrap itself round a powerpole beside the road. Again - the seats popped out and one of the fillets inside the boat cracked on the inside. The glass tape on the outside was OK.

So better that the boat does not depart the car - but it is amazing just how tough and flexible modern boats are.

MIK

[jmk89]

Not a boating story but a roofrack one - when I was in scouts we lashed a whole lot of equipment to the roof of the car with our usual hemp ropes. Of course it started to rain. We thought - no worries, the rain makes them shrink and will hold the stuff on tighter.

True, but it also means that they get set in the new length if they are under strain and wet - so while wet they actually were long and set at that length. When we slowed, the ropes were under less strain and rather than contracting as they would have when originally dry, stayed at their longer length and camping kit was trailed along the track for about 4 km..
At which point we started to move to synthetic ropes, especially for climbing...

[MiLKey]

Sorry to pump life into a dieing thread but reading has scared me, and if my soon to be completed Eureka comes off the roof i will cry! hahaha
Im only a little bit attached... plus as a uni student money is worth more than the value on its face!

If shes sittin on her gunwales (hull up obviously) is there any problem with wind getting up under her? or is this irrelevant if you tie her down tight enough? im thinking ill use ratched straps...

also upon reading im definately going to put rope holes in the front and rear of her before i set the decks in place! (learnt how to do so in another post)

and even if they arent symmetrical ill tie her off to the front tow links under the front of the Mistsubishi magna and the tow bar at the back!

[dhgomm]

I certainly hope I don't have those sort of problems ( boat coming off when tied down ), with the car top rack system I am working on for my PDRacer !.

But then I have bolted through hull tie points in the middle of the bow and stern on the PDRacer to tie her down to the front and rear of my '84 Ford Telstar ( tow bar at the rear and tow hook or sway bar underneath at the front - metal bumpers front and rear- but not mounted solidly enough to tie to directly ).

I am using horizontal wooden I-Beam cross-section rails ( same material and construction method as for the PDRacer framing, bolted, clamp fashion, to the roof racks, covered in seat belt material to eliminate scratching and to slide her off more easily, and to grip her coaming when tied on upside down onto the horizontal bars ( this should reduce any sideways movement ).

I will be drawing up plans with photos to share with everyone as soon as I can, only a few weeks now till my cast comes off my broken foot, and I can get back to working on my PDRacer, and finish off the car top racks with removable loading ramps, and the almost complete hand launching trolley I mentioned in my building topic earlier.

[colburge]

I was really worried about my Eureka coming off the roof too because I had never used roof racks before, but I had nothing to worry about. I just used a couple of pull down straps not the ratchet type and it was very solid, even without the ropes front and rear. I used the front tie down points under the front bumper and put some carpet around the rope to stop it wearing into it, I tied the back to the towbar. It didn't move an inch even at 110km/hr down the highway. You wont have any worries at all, you will see when you tie it down for the first time.

Col

[MiLKey]

Someone having a Eureka and experience tying her down gives me a bit more confidence.
She looks beautiful might i add!
Thanks,
Mike

[pdr311]

Dingo, thats story has given me the Hibijibies... I can only imagine how I'd feel if I saw my boat flying away...

Ill be strapping mine down to the racks and roping it at the ends. Luckily, I have a 1974 Mazda Capella, gutter moulds and nice chrome bumpers for tieing to.

Old school is Cool.

I had a similar situation where I recovered an old canoe that had come unstuck to the roof of a car. (I love free stuff you find on the side of the road) I put a couple of the floor mats on the roof to protect the paint, took a 2" ratchet strap and unrolled the windows and went right through the car! Tied it off tight around the belly of the canoe, through the lh window, through the interior, out the rh window and over to the canoe again. A light lashing line from the nose of the boat to the front bumper and drove it 250kms back home. (That was 11 years ago, I still use the canoe)
Rick.

[robhosailor]

I've considered to use our cars for transporting of my BETH "YuanFen" (in backyard yet) and I've sketched boxes on car's roofs...

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_82viGqF2vQo/S5EcjqAlJfI/AAAAAAAAAu8/VHHaX6nlrHY/s800/Transit02.jpg

But for shorter car (like as our old fiat punto) shorter boat better is:
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_82viGqF2vQo/S5EckbFlVRI/AAAAAAAAAvE/t-QejysYv64/s800/Punto%20ladunek02.jpg

Our previous (historic almost) car for short and longer boats better was:
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_82viGqF2vQo/S5EckCRso_I/AAAAAAAAAvA/iaILdk7jTbo/s800/fiat125p%20ladunek02.jpg
But it was sold...

[Boatmik]

Ah ... the Fiat 125 - a very classic car.

Particularly classic because they quickly rusted away in Australia. I think I have seen one in the last 5 years.

Though I do think BETH is a little prettier than that red box!

Michael

MIK

[robhosailor]

Ah ... the Fiat 125 - a very classic car.

Particularly classic because they quickly rusted away in Australia. I think I have seen one in the last 5 years.

Though I do think BETH is a little prettier than that red box!

Oh yes - Beth is really beautiful :) and our classic Fiat 125 was fine too :)

[JJMc]

Great option. I've use Yakima round tube roof racks with their canoe saddles for 15 or more years. Canoe is stable with just two rack straps for short, slower trips (80 kph), and add straps at both ends for long trips (3000 miles, too lazy to convert).

New cars with tow eyes underneath: I attach carabiners to make it easier to tie and avoid the sharp edges on some undercar mounts. Having a trailer hitch on the rear makes that bit easy.

[Boatmik]

Good idea! Caribiners or shackles.

MIK

[Old Yeller]

My vehicle doesn't have handy attachment points under the bumpers, so a friend showed me how to attach a pair of webbing loops that come up through the slots on each side of the front hood. They work really well to attach bow tie-downs to, and tuck neatly under the hood when they're not needed.

Want to try it? If you look in your engine compartment you will probably find a few bolts along the sides that fasten through the edges of the fenders. Take a length of synthetic webbing about 1" wide and about 8" long. Fold it in half so it's about 4" long. Hold the ends together. Heat a nail and melt a bolt-sided hole through the pair of webbing ends. Remove the bolt from the vehicle, poke it through the hole in the webbing, and reinstall the bolt. Do the same on the other side. That's all there is to it.

Cheers, Grant

[Boatmik]

What a great idea Grant!!!

They can double as hiking straps!

Joking aside - it is a really good idea.

MIK

[SimonLew]

The hood straps are brilliant!
We recently moved an 18ft, 80+ pound Grumman sailing canoe 900 miles on the roof of our Honda Fit. We have Thule load bars and used ratchet straps on each bar. Then a double line to the emergency tow eye screwed into the front bumper and a hook around some stout bit of bodywork, on the other side, under the bumper. Single line in the rear. The rig was rock solid at highway speed.
The car did great although gas mileage was down by 30% and the aluminum canoe is very noisy at 65mph.

One trick I use on cars with plastic bumpers is to hook the line to some strong metal bit under the bumper but run the tiedown rope through a length of good quality foam pipe insulation to keep the line from chafing the painted bumper.


http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt282/simonlew/IMG_1121s.jpg

http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt282/simonlew/IMG_1120s.jpg

[robhosailor]

New drawing of Beth on roofrack (attachement).

[MiLKey]

I do the same with the emergency tow points underneath.
This was when i was using soft racks
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/6365/rimg02866937336.jpg

I still use the front and rear tow points but now i have a proper set of Thule racks and canoe cradles.
And i made up this rig to help me load the canoe on my own
http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/771/rimg03237166397.jpg

Revised
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/2892/rimg03267184488.jpg

and with a strap which hooks onto the rack to stop it falling off the back
http://img804.imageshack.us/img804/8568/rimg03287208355.jpg

And i use this to push her around like a wheel barrow (which has recently broken :C )
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/5441/imag00187342413.jpg

[keyhavenpotter]

Here's an article in the Open Canoe Group's newsletter, Gossip, about how a member loads his 16' sailing canoe single handed onto his roofrack.

Page3 (http://www.ocsg.info/content/2009/oct/page3.html#Loading)

Brian

[Boatmik]

A rig to get the boat on the roof can be helpful.

However as the boat is so light - usually under 50lbs - I usually put it on the ground beside and slightly behind the car so I can lift the front of the canoe up onto the back roofrack and put it down.

Then walk to the back of the canoe and push it forward on the racks.

It can be a bit tricky in some tightly packed car lots. In that case I usually carry the whole thing and put one end on the rear rack and the other end on the ground. Then give it a shove.

MIK