Do the professional woodturners here use powered respirators ?

[JDarvall]

8 hours a day ? The thought of wearing one of these 8 hours a day bothers me.

like the triton
http://www.carbatec.com.au/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=110_19543

or do you have in mind any other respirators ?

(and just quietly...do you know where I could get one for less than $275)

[Chipman]

Saw one (Triton) in Bunnings on Friday... $197 which is the normal price so they should be able to order one in for you

Try Just Tools $199
http://www.justtools.com.au/category468_1.htm

Hope this helps,

Chipman

[littlebuddha]

Personaly i don't i use a face mask at times with certain woods, a face mask is a good thing to use as you never know when a piece is going to fly out of the chuck or a piece breck of as you turn. I must admit that i do not where one full time, i tend to stand to the side when i start up if unsure of a piece. I have been a carpenter for 40yrs in and out of the joinery shop and my health has never been affected by any form of dust, im not going to get into a debate about it. If you feel you need to use respirators then thats fine , i do find them very expencive for a basball cap with a small computerfan passing air over the face, or even so called pro jobs that run from compressors, even the small cartrige ones. i think its down to personal choice. i have an extractor setup but also use a shop vac direct on the work when i sand. thats fine for me. Im 55 and apart from a naff back and lack of hair i have no problems of the resportory nature, and i am on the lathe and in the shop a lot of hours. LB:2tsup:

[Dean]

I'll occasionally use mine at the lathe, but mostly during sanding.

Now, when I was sanding plasterboard joints I definitely wear it and you can notice a BIG difference. No fine dust in the lungs. Also use it if cutting up anything masonry that throws a lot of dust.

I'm glad I have one :)

[ticklingmedusa]

Im turning 6-8 hours daily and just starting to sell the odd piece.
Not pro really... semi pro maybe.
I use a Trend Airshield and wear it except when I spin green or wet wood.
(Just a face shield when its green)
Do I like wearing it ? Hell no.
I turn from a sitting position which puts my mug maybe 18 inches from
the toolrest. I was turning a big chunk of oak butcher block into a lazy susan turntable the other day and a minor catch pulled a glue joint apart and a 2x2 chunk just bounced off the shield and into space.
I'm 51 and have all my own teeth and I like the idea of keeping it that way so
a face shield is a must for me.
I need the lungpower because theres a chance I'll soon be drafted into the World Adaptive Bushkashi League or participate in the next Everest Crawl in the Himalayas.
$200 US to protect my boyish good looks and delay the inevitable cough wheeze and spew seems like a bargain to me.
My experience is that I notice the difference between using respiratory protection
and not using it.
I also use an extractor and fan during sanding.
The equation for me is simple... good health and safety means more quality time at the
toolrest and other activities.
tm

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

I think you'll find that the answer is: "Yes - when conditions dictate it."

I don't think any pro would use one all day every day. There are times when a simple dust-mask is all that's needed and other times when nothing is needed.

Unless you're sanding - which, IMHO, a pro would do as little as possible - or turning a "dusty" wood then I reckon you're doing yourself more harm than good by wearing one. They're heavy and my neck hurts after wearing one for a few hours... :~

[woodwork wally]

No not all the time but always extraction and often a dust mask and fairly frequent use of face shield cos I like the old mug the way it is "not handsome but unscarred"
and the sight of my blood could cause fainting and also I'm allergic to pain. It HURTS.
AND YES wood dust can be as bad as asbestous and I am not about to put my head in a bucket of tha craop and breath deeply. so there you have it 7 differant feeling on the subject and all along a similar vein . PROTECT YOURSELF WHEN and HOW IT IS REQUIRED or you or loved ones could pay dearly the track for indiscresions. Love your hobby or business for longer Regards WW Wally

[Harry72]

Try a Racal AH10 very expen$ive but worth it, I wear one for upto 12hrs at a time and have no problem with them... actually they have an added health benefit for me as I suffer for hayfever I dont sneeze while at work!

[Claw Hama]

As most of the others above have stated, good dust extraction system, almost always a face sheild on the lathe if there is any chance of the job tuning into a missile and it keeps the larger shavings from shooting into your face and eyes, it doesn't fog up like safety glasses. Dust mask if I am sanding or I find the wood upsets me like I did with Australian Cedar which gave me chronic hayfever. I also wear one when I'm the circular saw or belt sander etc.
:tissue2:

[Stu in Tokyo]

I think you'll find that the answer is: "Yes - when conditions dictate it."

I'd agree with that!

I'm not a pro, but I wear mine when roughing out wet blanks, keeps the crap out of my face and from down my shirt, and when sanding, even with the cyclone running, I find it helps a lot.

I have a Japanese buddy here who IS a pro turner, and he too uses the Triton, mostly in the same way that I do, the one difference, he has a homemade fan thing for it, and a long hose that he routes up above his lathe, and out to fresh air, no filter, no batteries :2tsup:

Cheers!

[Burnsy]

the one difference, he has a homemade fan thing for it, and a long hose that he routes up above his lathe, and out to fresh air, no filter, no batteries :2tsup:


I went and looked at a lathe an old turner had for sale here a few months back and he had taken one of those little fan heat units and disconnected the element. The unit was on a shelf that backed onto the wall of the shed, he had cut a hole for it at this location and sealed it around the unit so it drew air from outside. He had then used a mixmatch of ply, silicon and pipe fittings to encase the front of the unit so that it would take a vacume cleaner size hose. He had a basic face shield that his wife had made up a elastic edged hood for so it sealed around his face and neck, the hose connected to the top of the sheild somehow so air was constantly blown over his face and out via the elasticated hood. Again, no batteries.

[JDarvall]

Thanks kindly for the ideas. Problem for me is I've never liked things attached my head.

At work we're given ear muffs. I don't even like them. At the end of the day My ears and head ache just from the pressure of keeping them on. So, I wear ear plugs.

I find I just can't breathe with those little disposible dusk masks. even the quality ones. Feel very caustophobic.

I don't like the idea of having a hose attached to the workshop constantly, cause I gota be able to move around quickly to all parts of the shed, even though fresh air and no batteries sound like a good idea.

don't know....just a big pedistal fan still sounds attractive, and have the lathe setup partially outside. maybe. Can't be affording to buy every safety device. or might as well forget it. uno.

[Gil Jones]

Maybe fishing, as a hobby, would be safer and have cleaner air.:)
If I am making ANY kind of dust, I wear my Trend AirShield. Breathe better and live longer.

[NeilS]

I am an asthmatic so I always use a filtered air mask of one sort or another when I am working with any form of wood dust. It's not an optional extra for me.

The battery run Airshield is useful on some jobs...mainly when I am outside my workshop and have a dusty job on the go.

Inside the workshop I have rigged up a domestic air filter unit which has an extra large HEPA filter (an earlier model Sunbeam - it was one of the few available at the time) to my facemask via a very flexible medical quality air tube. This hose is supported by pulleys on an arrangement of overhead wires that run the length of my workshop, so I can freely move about.

It didn't take me long to get used to it (lighter and quieter than the Airshield), and I may not look that trendy when I am wearing it, but
I have used this set up for quite a few years now and it works well for me.

AND, I also run a full strength cyclone with pleated filter to remove as much dust as I can before it escapes into the workshop air.

Stay healthy

[gidgee 1]

This may not suit what you are doing,but something similar may help.
I can turn items 300mm long and up to 390mm in diameter which covers most of my turning.
I find all the dust is collected but you still need to clean up the shavings.

Gidgee 1

[JDarvall]

thanks for getting the pictures.

It might be the go. I have to turn legs which are about 550mm,,,,,but I've got many really long spindles to turn to. near 33" (forgoten what that is in metric).

[rsser]

There's no safe level of exposure to wood dust.

A filtered visor is cheap insurance; actually, since you can't pick up a spare set of lungs at Bunnies at the moment, you couldn't claim on the insurace.

I'm a fan of the Trend Airshield too. Not cheap but then is emphysema or lung cancer a cheaper option?

[PAH1]

I think that the startling fact is that once you have a problem, 1/3 recover with NO further exposure, 1/3 recover to some extent and 1/3 make no recovery ie permanent damage. The exposure to create these problems can be very short or chronic over years. You do not know you are a sensitive individual untill you get symptoms and by then it is too late for prevention.

[jmk89]

I think that it is also worth mentioning that the good news is that there is no research yet that suggests that the risk from wood dust, however bad for you, is not dose-related. That is, it is not like the risk of mesothelioma from asbestos exposure where one spike in the lung can be enough. The risk goes up and down in proportion to your exposure.

For us that means that any reduction in your exposure is worth doing and will proportionately improve your chances of not suffering an adverse reaction.

Once I realised that, using my helmet (Record with batteries on the headband) when I am making ( or tidying up) dust seemed like a useful kind of insurance. I have also fouund that because it blows air over my face, the helmet is not as claustrophobic as I had feared and I have got used to having it on.

[rsser]

Wood dust can cause a variety of illness: dermatitis, nose and lung cancer, emphysema, upper respiratory tract inflammation etc.

Jeremy, the US prof'l association of industrial hygienists declared wood dust a carcinogen in the same category as asbestos in 1996. So there's no safe level of exposure.

And yeah, I find wearing the Airshield no drama at all.

[jmk89]

Ern

I agree it is a carcinogen. But the aetiology of the carcenomas that have been associated with wood dust is dose related, as were all carcenomas for asbestos until the special aetiology of mesothelioma was identified. I don't know who "industrial hygenists" are, nor what their categorisation of matter as carcenogens is directed to show, but I do know that the Australian Society of Oncologists and the NSW Dust Diseases Tribunal recognise entirely different risk profiles for mesothelioma (which is solely the result of asbestos exposure) and other carcenomas (including those relating to asbestos dust and wood dust). The latter class are dose-related while the former are not.

[rsser]

The association I mentioned Jeremy is as I understand it the peak body for OH&S professionals in the US. See this for the reference: http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?p=700392

Also as I understand it in Oz the professionals now say, cp. 20 years ago, that there is no safe level of asbestos exposure. I'm not aware that they've limited this only to meso as indeed one couldn't.

So, extrapolating: no safe level for wood dust either.

Of course not everyone exposed to asbestos comes down with a cancer, fibrosis or pleural plaques. But a visiting UK specialist recently estimated that 1 in 10 chippies in Oz will develop an asbestos-related disease from their work with AC materials, so if people want to play the odds with their lives, or the quality of their lives, they should be aware of the level of risk.

[jmk89]

Ern

I am afraid that I must disagree with you for a number of reasons.

First I did not say and I am not saying that there is a safe level of exposure to wood dust. Your body may react and develop a tumour at levels of exposure much lower than for the general population.

What do I say is that the wood dust-related carcenomas, like all asbestos-related carcenomas except mesolthelioma, are dose-related. This means that for any individual, however likely they are to develop a tumour from exposure, the likelihood of a tumour arising from exposure increases at a higher than proportional level as the exposure increases, or to put it in the reverse, that the likelihood of cancer from a low level of exposure is smaller than from a high level of exposure not merely by reference to the amount of exposure but by a greater factor.

Another aspect of this is to consider the effect over time - wood dust and asbestos dust (except when dealing with meso) have a cumulative effect over time. There is no cumulative effect for meso - one spike of asbestos is enough. That's why there is absolutely no safe level of exposure to asbestos.

Second, you do have to consider the kind of carcenoma. The overwhelming number of the tumours that Australians (chippies or others) get from asbestos cement products are mesothelioma.

The other tumours for chippies show no greater propensity than against the background populations statistics (see Dust Diseases Tribunal Reports for the last 15 years).

The point is that asbestos can cause meso. So far wood dust has not been shown to do so or to cause any other disease except in a dose-related way- even with the high silica Australian hardwoods that might be thought to be a major risk becasue the silicates could make sharp fibres that might lodge in the lung and casuse meso-like tumours. So far, no evidence exists that there is such an aetiology.

For other kinds of tumour, wood dust and asbestos dust can cause tumours and are about equally likely to; but the likelihood is dose-related, so reducing exposure will have a better than proportionate effect in reducing the likelihood of being affected. It is the existence of meso and its relation with asbestos that baffled the doctors in the 40's and 50's - they reduced the exposures to asbestos dust of workers in asbestos mines and plants significantly but tumours kept on happening. It was only when they realised that there was meso as well as dose-related tumours involved that they realised that there was no safe level of exposure to asbestos.

In the end, though, I think that we are not far apart on the bottom line:
1. There is a cancer risk from wood dust.
2. You can improve your chances of not developing a tumour if you reduce your exposure.

Where we disagree is that my analysis says that the most effective protection is the first, because it reduces your dose and has a disproporionate effect on your chances of getting a dust disease. Either way, the important thing is to reduce the likelihoods and

[rsser]

Fair 'nuff. But meso is the easy one to analyse since asbestos fibres is the only cause. I do wonder how many lung cancers caused by asbestos got written off to other causes (and of course many employers/insurance companies have exploited the causal uncertainty for obvious reasons).

What are the stats on the increases in likelihood of wood dust-related disease by exposure? .... By particle size? By concentration? By species? By time?

And just to diverge, forumites should also be aware that asbestos wasn't banned in automotive productcs (gaskets, brake linings) 'til 2003 so there's still plenty of cars etc out there that you should beware of. And finally, AC fibres were used in reinforcing some lino so there's another renovation risk.

[jmk89]

But meso is the easy one to analyse since asbestos fibres is the only cause. I do wonder how many lung cancers caused by asbestos got written off to other causes (and of course many employers/insurance companies have exploited the causal uncertainty for obvious reasons).
.

Ern

As far as I am aware, the trend has actually been the other way - at least in NSW, which has the largest % of asbestos-related litigation because both CSR and James Hardie have their main Australian presence here and because the Dust Diseases Tribunal is a fast and plaintiff-friendly place to run these cases.

If you have a tumour and you have a fair case against Hardie or CSR that you have been exposed to asbestos, the DDT will, in most cases hear your case against the asbestos manufacturer and just move to determine the amount of damages. It is only in the most extreme cases that a DDT finding of liability is overturned on appeal - for example, a meso claim from a time before meso was identified as a separate risk.

The practice in the DDT is that the damages are then awarded 100% against the asbestos manufacturer who is then left to make its own case for contribution against the tobacco company or other defendants (eg BHP, Electricity Commission, Department of Defence, etc).

So far the DDT has been too busy with plaintiffs to start hearing these cases for contribution. One of the "sleepers" in the legal system is when the "bulge" in asbestos plaintiff cases works its way through the system and the DDT gets around to the contribution cases and the tobacco companies have to pay their share to Hardies and CSR....

[rsser]

Yeah, sorry, I was speaking of Vic and though I don't know much about the legal side I think you have a statutory system for compensation and we have a court-based system.

Having talked with ARD sufferers and their families (in fact, I bring them in to talk with my med students) your system sounds better!

And of course you are not talking about the JH presence but it's b*stard offspring? ;-}

Yes, the 'bulge' due to the latency period is a real worry.

My plea to woodturners is to learn from the ugly history of asbestos.

(As a btw, while the dangers of ARDs were well known in the 70s I was still sent out on a construction site to work with asbestos unwarned and unprotected).

And I'd still like to know about the stats on dosage effects re wood dust.

[barnsey]

This post has me a little confused.

Asbestos and timber have no generic cross relevance and the precautions likewise.

There are numerous references available about the scientific research into the nature of timbers and the dangers of exposure to the dusts thereof.

Some people on exposure to the dusts of some timbers will display extreme reactions to the point of death. Forget cancer - we are talking short term finality.

Silky Oak is one that comes to mind - doesn't affect me but my ex father in law went within an inch of his life! (Great stuff - I got all his stocks:?)

There are plenty of other timbers that have a reputation of extremely high toxicity levels. The crux is toxicity not carcinogenicity.

The question of protection is of course personal but I would suggest that at the very least positive filtered ventilation is a minimum requirement if performing any timber cutting/abrasion activity. The ex FIL was affected largely by skin contact not so much through respiration. My Triton is a pain but I cope.

I'm not disputing the cancer argument just suggesting protection is vital and for more reasons than we may be aware of.

You know I'm right - find a repirator you can live with and use it:;

[jmk89]

Sorry, barnsey. I was only trying to get the asbestos/wood dust comparison accurate. I agree that there are medical effects of wood dust that also need to be considered and that those are in many cases more important.

The need to take seriously protection against wood dust is the bottom line.

[rsser]

Asbestos and timber have no generic cross relevance and the precautions likewise.

In both cases we're talking about air-borne particles; their effects are similar in some respects so how we prevent ingestion in both cases is similar. There is also a history of complacency (or worse) re asbestos that we would do well to learn from.

As for other effects of wood dust, some of those were in fact mentioned if your care to read back Burnsy, partic. in the link.

[TEEJAY]

At the BWWW show Richard Raffan did a display on turning bowls and to finish the bowl he did the sanding wet using Scandinavian oil and sandpaper - this was one technique that eliminated dust at one stage and I would say sanding is a crucial stage - so perhaps we can use techniques similar to our benefit.

Not a cure all but a good tip all the same. :wink:

[JDarvall]

At the BWWW show Richard Raffan did a display on turning bowls and to finish the bowl he did the sanding wet using Scandinavian oil and sandpaper - this was one technique that eliminated dust at one stage and I would say sanding is a crucial stage - so perhaps we can use techniques similar to our benefit.

Not a cure all but a good tip all the same. :wink:

sounds good to me. ta

I turned some green wood recently and I was happy with the lack of dust. Maybe just try and stick to turning green timber.....or wet it prior to sanding? .....but I suppose their might be big clogging problems with sanding wet. Have to give it a go.

[Chipman]

Sanding with oil is called burnishing...

What this does is to mix the oil and the dust which fills the pores in the wood with the correct colour and the heat cooks the oil into the fibres. It is then either buffed off with a clean cloth or allowed to dry then waxed or coated with lacquer/polyurethane etc. Apart from the filling of the fibres, it is similar in principal to how shellawax works (Good stuff!)

By the way, although there will be no dust, unless your lathe runs very slow you will end with oil flung everywhere (learnt by experience!)

Chipman

[JDarvall]

By the way, although there will be no dust, unless your lathe runs very slow you will end with oil flung everywhere (learnt by experience!)

Chipman

well bugger that then. :D

thanks mate.

[rsser]

You can sand with water too.

Just watch out with highly contrasting grain such as you get with spalting; and IMO it dulls the lights in well-figured blackwood.

[barnsey]

Sorry, barnsey. I was only trying to get the asbestos/wood dust comparison accurate. I agree that there are medical effects of wood dust that also need to be considered and that those are in many cases more important.

The need to take seriously protection against wood dust is the bottom line.

The question was do pro's wear respirators.

What they may or may not do is probably an example of the ambivalence lots of people display in their actions daily and from experience pro's can be serious offenders.

Asbestos was an introduced subject to the topic and the nature of that danger is IMO a degree or two greater. The comparison is only valid from the view that one must take the appropriate precautions - as I stated. From a woodworkers perspective his workshop is full of threats and dangers and I'm sure I'm not the only one who has taken shortcuts on more occasions than one should.

I know or have known a good number of short fingered, scarred, vision impaired, deaf and other assortments of injuries amongst engineering people - timber or metal - pro and amateur. Lucky I haven't hurt myself more than I have!!

The answer to the question is: What pro's do is not necessarily relevant - take the appropriate safety measures or live with consequences - or worse die.

I don't see too many fire 'es turning out to a bush fire in shorts and thongs on a 40 degree day - you wear the gear coz that's what you need to do. Regulations prohibit them from doing any different. That's not the case necessarily in some wood workshops especially the home or even some small ones.

As afore to mentioned - get the gear that you can live with and wear it. If not, don't come to the party and if you do, don't grizzle about the outcome.

If that's a lesson learned from the asbestos situation well and good.

But a lesson just the same.

Jamie
:D

[Gil Jones]

Jake,
At your leisure, read through this article. It may answer a few questions.

[rsser]

That's sobering reading Gil.

None of the expensive gear I have is good for particles less than 3-4 microns.

And I smoke cigars :-{

[hughie]

Not surprising all wood dust is considered dangerous....

A timely article, thanks Gil.

[Gil Jones]

As inconvenient as it is to wear eye and lung protection, the price we pay for NOT wearing it is astronomical. The consequences of not using eye protection is instant, and quite obvious. The need for respiratory protection is pooh-poohed by way too many folks (even professionals who should know better). By the time we discover that our lungs are contaminated from being clogged up with turning, sanding, and tool grinding dust, it is pretty much too late. I was lucky that my wife and children presented me with a Trend AirShield before I was ready to board the "last train west".

[rsser]

Yes ... a pertinent version of Pascal's wager!

What does your TA filter down to do you know Gil?

I've done a search and couldn't find an ad that specified.

May have to extract the digit and find out what the relevant standards specify, but if you know .... TIA.

[Gil Jones]

Pascal ..(in part)......
"But there is here an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain, a chance of gain against a finite number of chances of loss, and what you stake is finite."

An interesting comparison, Ern. Check your email for a scan file of two pages of the Trend AirShield manual.

The Trend filter data says: "The filter is tested against Sodium Chloride aerosol 0.02 to 2 micron with a mass median particle size of 0.6 micron. For use against solid and water based aerosols only."

I can say that I am happy to use my Trend AirShield, and that it keeps the air I breath clean enough that I have had no respiratory troubles in the three years I have been using it.
No doubt there are better units available, but I shall stay with this one until I can afford, and need, another. Trend now markets a Pro series AirShield for around $365 USD > http://www.airwareamerica.com/trendairshieldpro.aspx <
I have no data to share on the Pro model, other than this link to the maker in the UK > http://www.trend-uk.com/product/AIR_PRO

[rsser]

Many thanks Gil. Good to know ... I use one too.

Performs well on the 'snot colour' test.

[Gil Jones]

Yep, that test comes out clean for me too.:)

[rsser]

Came across some more useful info here, on risks, standards and filter efficiency:

http://cregboy.com/Wood%20dust.doc

[Gil Jones]

Thanks Ern, thatsa good article.
Filter it, don't breathe it.

[Groggy]

Jake, this might be of interest, click the picture to go to the link. It comes with 10m of duct for $160 plus shipping. Not a bad deal.

http://edge3.dealsdirect.net/images/products/1842/1/product1_1842.jpg (http://www.dealsdirect.com.au/p/portable-ventilator-10-metre-spiral-flexible-duct/)