GIS Rigging and worldwide fitting availability - sigh :-)

[Tomahawk J]

This question is generally directed toward MIK, but I'd also love to hear from any other GIS sailors. I'm having a hard time finding the exact blocks and other hardware listed in the plans, RF 584, RF 681, etc. Not being a sailor myself, I don't have a clear picture of exactly what I'm looking for. Also, I can find spectra rope in the larger diameters, but not 3, 4, & 5mm. Does anyone know if rock climbing "accessory cord" would work.

Thanks,
J

[Daddles]

Here's a link to the Ronstan site

http://www.ronstan.com/marine/default.asp

Just match the numbers there and get something that does the same job. Hell, a half reasonable chandlery (boat shop) will be able to the same thing (but take the plans and pictures with you), just don't let them talk you into buying more expensive bits than Mik suggests.

As for the rope - I'd have thought they were all made to the same sizes. Maybe, you being in that big isolated place 'merica', are stuck with imperial sizing :D Whatever, use the rope types he recommends (there are reasons) and if you can't get the size suggested, go a little larger (but you'll probably find that they're just metric ropes with imperial tags).

The reason I'm suggesting this route is that Mik has carefully considered each pulley and rope, then suggested the best thing to do the job efficiently and economically. There are of course, other options and the rope you suggest may be one of them and every block can be replaced with something different or the whole thing set up completely differently, but as a fellow novice, you don't always understand the reason he's done something (eg, the spectra ropes because they are pre-stretched) and so may use something that doesn't actually have the same benefit.

Richard

[b.o.a.t.]

Also, I can find spectra rope in the larger diameters, but not 3, 4, & 5mm. Does anyone know if rock climbing "accessory cord" would work.
Thanks,
J

Would probably 'work' but not as well.
Spectra has near zero stretch.
Rock climbing cord can be 'dynamic' with about 8-10% stretch under load or 'static' which has maybe 1 or 2%. Dynamic good for sheets, bad for halyards & downhauls.
You will probably find spectra has a higher breaking strain/working load for any given diameter.
Spectra is probably only available at chandlers & specialist cordage places. Got mine at Glascraft. Seen it at Binks.
hope this helps
cheers
AJ

[Boatmik]

Howdy Guys - thanks for following this up for me!!!

I haven't worked out a way other than giving fitting numbers for a particular range (Ronstan) and don't really know what to do about defining lots of different sizes in different ranges that are different in every part of the globe - I'd go mad(der)! :-)

I could suggest HARKEN which is available world wide - but the problems is that they are a Rolls Royce product at a Rolls Royce price.

In general ... I don't like using ball bearing blocks as they push the price up too high and the non ball bearing ones are much, much stronger for the same weight.

http://www.binksonline.com.au/store/images/rf280.jpg
A normal non ball bearing block - sheave diameter around 30mm

http://www.binksonline.com.au/store/images/rf572.jpg
A normal non ball bearing block with becket sheave diameter around 30mm

http://www.binksonline.com.au/store/images/rf41100.jpg
A mainsheet block - sheave diameter approx 50mm for the Goat - Beth or the PDR can use the smaller ones above fine - btw the mainsheet blocks don't need to have the built in shackle and can have a simple loop top like the above ones.

BTW ... as far as blocks with a built in swivel - there is only one you need with that - and that's for the last block in the GIS mainsheet system just before it comes to your hand. If I have to buy swivelling blocks for other functions I generally tape them with insulation or self amalgamating tape so they can only swivel a little - good way to avoid twists in the mainsheet.

In the USA Duckworks can send them out http://www.duckworksbbs.com/hardware/blocks/fiddle.htm
Rudder fittings are here http://www.duckworksbbs.com/hardware/p-g/index.htm

Blocks from any range will work if they are sized correctly - but the definition of that has changed in recent years. There has been a (good) tendency to reduce the diameter of ropes without reducing the sizes of the blocks much. This is good because it reduced friction a large amount.

Basically I will use blocks that are suitable for 7mm for every rope under 6mm. And for 8mm rope I will generally try to get

The mainsheet is the rope that gets the biggest workout - some will get a big fat one thinking it will be easier on the hands - bad move - you just end up with so much weight and friction in the system and heavier, more expensive blocks. So for little boats I recommend 6mm sheet (Beth, PDR) and for the goat 8mm. If the mainsheet blocks are cheaper range that can deal with 10mm then that will work just fine.

For climbing ropes - static lines are probaby out of spectra or dyneema (both are tradenames - material is the same) or are the best polyester alternative if you really can't find find the lower stretch alternatives - so I would go for that. Static lines are excellent as AJ says for halyards, corner tie offs for the sail and downhauls. The other bits are not really stressed too much.

There are other varieties of low stretch rope. Kevlar and Vectran. Both are sometimes used on boats, but they are both a bit troublesome as Kevlar can be tricky to tie or take round corners and Vectran degrades in UV light.

With Rudder fittings - small boats like the PDR and Beth can get away with a 6mm (1/4") pin size on the rudder fittings. The GIS I would probably move up one size to a 7.9mm (about 5/16")

I hope all these comments (from the others above too) are helping.

MIK

[ihbryant]

I recently purchased the GIS plans and am having similar issues. I feel confident I'll be able to figure out something for the blocks and such, but I am having a problem with the rudder hardware.

I can find the gudgeons and pintles from the plan on the Ronstan web site, but I can't find any reference to the pin, RM148. Is it something that can be homemade?

The long pintle from Duckworks is 3.5 inches long. Wouldn't you have to cut the hole in the transom twice as high to be able to use them? Is that safe? I think it would be ugly in any case.

I'm still a long way from the point that it really becomes an issue, but this thread kind of bubbled the question up to the top of my head, and I've been worrying about it.

Thanks for your help.

Ira

[Daddles]

I think you yanks (and poms and poles and anyone else building these boats) need to go to the local chandlery, look at the brand names sold, then report back here, maybe after checking out their website (if they have one).

The thinking is that Ronstan are as common as muck here (everyone has them) and so that's what Mik's familiar with. If "Sailor Jack's Whacko Boat Bits" is the norm where you are, working out what the appropriate parts are then posting them here in an appropriately named thread, will help others ... wait for it ... in the same boat **groan** :D

Richard

[Daddles]

As an addition to that last post, Ronstan have such a large range, it can be a challenge matching part numbers with what's in stock - I had a touch of that when rigging Redback. Sooooo, might I suggest that anyone who found that part number ??? worked as a replacement for recommended part number XXXm post that as well.

It's all about networking folks :wink:

Richard

and besides, soon I'll be rigging Sixpence and will need to know all this stuff :rolleyes:

[Boatmik]

I recently purchased the GIS plans and am having similar issues. I feel confident I'll be able to figure out something for the blocks and such, but I am having a problem with the rudder hardware.

I can find the gudgeons and pintles from the plan on the Ronstan web site, but I can't find any reference to the pin, RM148. Is it something that can be homemade?

The long pintle from Duckworks is 3.5 inches long. Wouldn't you have to cut the hole in the transom twice as high to be able to use them? Is that safe? I think it would be ugly in any case.

Ira

Howdy Ira,

Really good point that I had overlooked!!! The rudder fittings for the goat need to be a single long pin because the tiller goes through a hole in the transom!!!!

How could I miss something so obvious!!!

Basically any rudder fittings that use a 6mm (1/4") pin are a little too light for the goat - a couple have used this size and had no trouble - probably because the rudder system ensures there will never be any large loads - unlike a swinging blade. The next one up - perhaps a little better is about 5/16 (about 8mm) will be fine - but would require different rudder fittings.

Just to stress the point ... please don't use this rudder sizing as a guide for similar boats - if they have a swinging rudder - which means much higher loads to the hand when partially lifted (and bad steering into the bargain) then you had better go up from the 1/4" for a similar sized boat or similar sized sail.

The Ronstan fittings shown in the plan have been discontinued in OZ and replaced with new models in plastic and alloy. But the pin defines everything - get the right pinsize and they will be OK - whatever the brand. Make sure the hole the pin runs through won't distort - it should have a ring welded in it for the pin to pass through.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3157/2566597441_8009771b88_o.jpg

You can make the pin yourself. you will probably will need a vice.

There is one little trick though.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3159/2567420406_7c0bd3c6aa_o.png

It can be hard to bend a radius in stainless, so the normal thing is to use a grinder to put a little notch in the pin where you want the bend to happen. It needs to be on what will be the INSIDE of the right angle bend and only needs be 2 or three mm deep. You could probably do it with a medium triangular file or the corner of a square file.

Then hold it in the vice with what will be the long end with the vice jaws just under the notch - and hammer it over to 90 degrees. Grind a taper into the point and ... finished.

Michael

[Tomahawk J]

Thanks for all the input; I see I'm not alone in the quest for boat hardware. Here in the mountains of North Carolina, ship chandlerys are about as scarce as hen's teeth. Rock climbing and kayaking are our sports. I have found a rescue throw rope in 1/4" Spectra that may work for the halyard, I'll let you all know how it goes.

Like you said Daddles, even searching Ronstan's website is difficult; I've only been able to find part of the hardware listed in the GIS plan set. Duckworks here in the USA really doesn't cary much of the needed hardware. I've searched online boat catalogues for two weeks now and still can't seem to turn up what I need, at least not everything in one place.

So far, the rudder hardware is my biggest problem. Does anyone know where to find this? Even Ronstan doesn't seem to cary anything remotely like this.

Thanks,
J

[Boatmik]

Thanks for all the input; I see I'm not alone in the quest for boat hardware. Here in the mountains of North Carolina, ship chandlerys are about as scarce as hen's teeth. Rock climbing and kayaking are our sports. I have found a rescue throw rope in 1/4" Spectra that may work for the halyard, I'll let you all know how it goes.

It will be pretty good. I certainly would not go any thicker.


Like you said Daddles, even searching Ronstan's website is difficult; I've only been able to find part of the hardware listed in the GIS plan set. Duckworks here in the USA really doesn't cary much of the needed hardware. I've searched online boat catalogues for two weeks now and still can't seem to turn up what I need, at least not everything in one place.

Can you tell me which online places you have been looking?


So far, the rudder hardware is my biggest problem. Does anyone know where to find this? Even Ronstan doesn't seem to cary anything remotely like this.
Thanks,
J

I'll have a look if you can give me some places. I think West Marine might be a possibility and I can look for similar parts or some place that has a good range.

Michael

[Tomahawk J]

Thanks MIK,

I may have spoken to soon, it seems that duckworks actually does have quite a bit of what I can use. They don't have the large swivel block for the main sheet, and the appropriate rudder hardware still escapes me. BTW, the plans call for a becket block at the end of the boom, but the pictures on your rigging page show a plain block; which is better?

As for suppliers I have serched, the most promising besides Duckworks, were Jamestown Distributors, Sailrite, and Ronstan's corporate site.

Regards,
J

P.S. Glued the inwales in place tonight, its starting to feel like a boat now. I'll post some pictures soon.

[Boatmik]

Howdy - on the boom you need a block and also need to tie the fixed end of the mainsheet.

You can use a plain block like we did on the GIS rigging page on my website and tie off the mainsheet through the eye in the sail
http://www.storerboatplans.com/GIS/GISRigging.html

Or you can use a block with becket. There is no functional difference - just that some people do have some blocks already.

Inwales mean serious progress - I wanna see the pics!

MIK

[ihbryant]

Sailing Services (http://www.sailingservices.com) has the rudder hardware in their Ronstan price list (http://www.sailingservices.com/downloads/Jan2008/2008_Ronstan_Retail_Sched.xls), but I haven't called them to confirm that they actually have it. Please let us know what you finally go with.

And Mik, thanks for the write up!

Ira

[arbordg]

[quote=Tomahawk J;752700]Thanks MIK,

I may have spoken to soon, it seems that duckworks actually does have quite a bit of what I can use. They don't have the large swivel block for the main sheet, and the appropriate rudder hardware still escapes me. BTW, the plans call for a becket block at the end of the boom, but the pictures on your rigging page show a plain block; which is better?


Regards,
J

Have you communicated with Chuck at Duckworks? I'm betting he could easily set you up with the same package of hardware he sold us when we built our GIS. He & I went back and forth a bit, sorting it out and getting comparable Duckworks stock to what Mik spec'c. If he can't do it, contact me and I'll dig through my records to see what we ordered.