What is the longest lasting glue?

[echnidna]

What is the longest lasting glue?

[Geoff Dean]

What is the longest lasting glue?

I've got a 500ml bottle of triton woodworking glue that has lasted me around 5 years.
Wouldn't it be dependent on how much you use it?:?

For instance, at my place, a jar of raspberry jam lasts about 1 week compared to around 4 weeks for blackberry jam and around 2 months for vegemite.:D

[Morty]

If you are talking about shelf life, hot melt glue can sit there forever.

After it has been applied? Good question...look below for the answer:?

[Different]

I have some PVA that has been in my glue cupboard near on 20 years and while i dont use it on quality work it works perfectly on more utility items.

Ross

[jmk89]

The one that is holding together the mistake you made that you only realised was a mistake after the glue had fully set:oo::doh:

[switt775]

I think the answer will depend on the use and abuse. Will the item spend it's life inside, protected from extremes of temperature and moisture? Or will it be out in the garden in full sun/rain? What are you gluing: timber type, other materials?

If there was a simple answer that covered all situations, I doubt there would be as many types of glue on the market.:cool:

[echnidna]

ahhh a serious answer, Thankyou Switt
I was beginning to think I'd posted in the jokes section.

Say for indoor use

[Toolin Around]

I would say resorcinol would be the longest lasting glue, next would be melamine resin. Good luck getting your hands on these though. The one that will be readily available to the average user is epoxy. Many glues will state they're long lasting but few can actually show that with actual evidence. By long lasting I think along the lines of a minimum 30 years.

[jmk89]

Seriously, for indoor use, the toughest and strongest and longest-lasting that I know of is a good woodworking epoxy like Techniglue.

[rrich]

During a very long period of woodworking inactivity I've had a gallon of yellow glue that lasted about a decade.

There are brands of Polyurethane glue that will last a few years with some care. (Teflon pipe thread tape between the bottle and spout and a good seal between the cap and spout.) I seem to have better luck with the "Elmer's" brand. (Blue rhino or blue bull or blue ox)

[echnidna]

Seriously, for indoor use, the toughest and strongest and longest-lasting that I know of is a good woodworking epoxy like Techniglue.

I have always considered epoxy to be the most durable but on reading the links in this post (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=73899) it seems it isn't. Rescorcinol is out as it has a dark glueline.

Might have to consider hide glue

[silentC]

We seem to be talking about two different things: shelf life and durability. Which one are you interested in?

Either way, I don't think there's going to be any definitive answer to the question.

[echnidna]

durability.

[thumbsucker]

The only tried and test truly durable glue that has been tested in actually real life testing is hide glue. Furniture objects made from hide glue have now lasted 5000 years intact dating back to ancient Egypt. This is partially due to the fact that hide glue is hydroscopic and absorbs water. This means that it resets and hardens all its life with the change in climate, this however is not a problem because wood is also hydroscopic.

The only drawback is that you cannot keep your furniture at the bottom of the pool. :C I have been however surpised how durable hide glue is in the weather, as long as it is not sitting in water it will soften up but as soon as the air dries so will it. And be as good as new.

Also its the only glue that can be reversed by injection of water into a joint and its the only glue that will glue to itself. Its also completely non toxic.

I doubt anything made from PVA, or Epoxy will be around in 5000 years.

[Toolin Around]

The only tried and test truly durable glue that has been tested in actually real life testing is hide glue. Furniture objects made from hide glue have now lasted 5000 years intact dating back to ancient Egypt. This is partially due to the fact that hide glue is hydroscopic and absorbs water. This means that it resets and hardens all its life with the change in climate, this however is not a problem because wood is also hydroscopic.

The only drawback is that you cannot keep your furniture at the bottom of the pool. :C I have been however surpised how durable hide glue is in the weather, as long as it is not sitting in water it will soften up but as soon as the air dries so will it. And be as good as new.

Also its the only glue that can be reversed by injection of water into a joint and its the only glue that will glue to itself. Its also completely non toxic.

I doubt anything made from PVA, or Epoxy will be around in 5000 years.

In the right circumstanced hide is a great glue but in the often sustained crushing humidity of australia I think it wouldn't be the ideal glue due to the reasons you have noted - its ability to aborb water. Most northern hemisphere nations where hide was very popular the humididty isn't near as bad or long lasting as it is here.

If you placed a piece made of epoxy and put in the same situation where the hide lasted 5000 years I suspect you'd find the epoxy would be in just as good shape if not better. Those conditions are most likely the desert conditions of such places like egypt where humidity is almost zero most of the year.

[Toolin Around]

I have always considered epoxy to be the most durable but on reading the links in this post (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=73899) it seems it isn't. Rescorcinol is out as it has a dark glueline.

Might have to consider hide glue


The way I took that study was that indeed epoxy is a durable glue but it's often not applied correctly. Use of a filler is needed to bolster the brittle crystal structure of the epoxy. And proper preparation of the sub-straight is necessary for a good long lasting bond.

You'd be hard pressed to find many boat builders that rely on epoxy daily that will say it's a poor glue otherwise the boat building industry would have abandoned it decades ago.

It may not be the best but it is the best of the more readily and easily applied glues available.

[echnidna]

I want to carve some large murals so I'll need to laminate boards and I don't want glueline problems down the track.

I'll use macrocarpra which is extremly stable so expoxy might be the go with a plasticiser, though hide glue is reversible if needs be. I could make the hide glue waterproof but don't know how that would affect possible future restoration side of things. Suppose doing a trial glueup and check out reversibility in a few months is what to do with the foul smelling crap.

[jmk89]

On this basis, which accords with my understanding (so long as the epoxy is not exposed to UV), I would go with epoxy unless the murals are to be held in air conditioned premises, where the humidity will be so low as to prevent hide glue from resoftening.

[tea lady]

If you need flexabilty then the urea formaldahide glue with a % of pva added could be the go. It is supposed to be somewhat heat and water resistant. And for such a big job as you are planning it would be worth you while buyng the 5 liter container it comes in..... plus hardener. (Small amounts available from Bunnings lurking on top shelf.) I was using it for my laminated handles, but ultimately found that the Techniglue epoxy was more suitable for my purpose. I wasn't doing it on such a large scale.:rolleyes:

The AVSyntec site has lots of charts with different recepes and fillers and applications. (But I can't find it right now.:-)

[silentC]

I recently went back and had a look at a bathroom vanity top I made about 5 years ago which is made from Sydney blue gum laminated with Urea Formaldehyde. It's still in one piece and no sign of creep. I chucked out the almost full bottle of glue last year because it had turned to jelly. :)

[Ivan in Oz]

ahhh a serious answer, Thankyou Switt



Oh!!:oo:
Indoor:(

I was thinking Gravity,
It did well for the Egyptians for a few thousand years.
But that's outdoors; and in the Desert Sun:doh:

[Colin Howkins]

Echidna,

If you are asking about longevity of application, well how about this:

We have in our possession a sideboard that my Grandmother purchased to celebrate the end of WW1 in 1918. The unit was not brand new then, current thinking is that it was manufactured in the very early 1900's,

All the glue joints are still holding together and they would have been animal hide glue. We also have in our possession a dining room suite that was my Mum & Dad's, bought in 1932. In the lst 12 months have re glued the chairs [that was a job and a half] but the table is still hanging in there. Once again animal hide glue.

I will give you an update on PVA's when they have been around for a 100 years or so.

Incidentally, the Mosquito bombers used in WW II were timber framed, and held together with [I think] animal hide glue, and some of those planes lasted 20 odd years, just glued together, in such an unforgiving environment before failing!

[jimbur]

I'd go along with Colin. Only hide glue has been tested for longevity so far. The rest are new kids on the block.:)
Stradivarius picked the right glue didn't he?
Jim

[IanW]

Incidentally, the Mosquito bombers used in WW II were timber framed, and held together with [I think] animal hide glue, and some of those planes lasted 20 odd years, just glued together, in such an unforgiving environment before failing!

The Mosquitoes were glued with milk casein glue, Colin, but your point is valid, it's a protein material, like hide glue. From my (limited) experience with milk paint, casein is a bit more water resistant than hide glue, but still succumbs to constant humidity, as they found out with the Mosquitoes in Burma.....

I think it's beyond doubt that protein glues get the guernsey on durability, since they are holding up well on hundreds of years old objects, & nothing else has been around that long, yet. UV does a number on plastics, so they won't tolerate light, but indoors, & used appropriately, they will probably be ok for a lifetime or two, at least. While hide glue is considered to be non-creeping, it can soften enough to allow creep under high humidity situations - such situations also encourage fungal growth, which can do a number on joints, too.

I use at least 4 different glues regularly, for different reasons, including durability - melamine or resorcinol has durability around water, so they are my choice for benchtops that get wet, but good old hide glue has the durability I want for things I hope outlast me & may need repair in a lifetime or two.

Toolin' - don't know if you have ever lived in Britain, but that's a VERY high humidity place, where hide-glue furniture has held together for a little longer than our lifetimes! Australia would be considered a medium to low humidity place, by most reckonings. Extreme humidity cycles like you get in Southern Ontario are probably the toughest test of any glue.

And BTW, I wouldn't advise using PVA glues that have sat around for more than a year or so - they may look ok, but they do deteriorate, and fail to set properly - most manufatcturers give a shelf-life of a year. Sometimes you can tell it's 'off' - it goes a bit 'ropey' - but I have had a couple of bad experiences with 18 month old glue that looked ok, too. Now I buy glue in smaller lots I know I can use up in a year or less (& mark the purchase date on each bottle/pack so I can keep track). Another point in hide glue's favour - I recently tried some old pearls that had been sitting in a shed for more than 40 years - they seemed to work just fine!

Cheers,

[Toolin Around]

Toolin' - don't know if you have ever lived in Britain, but that's a VERY high humidity place, where hide-glue furniture has held together for a little longer than our lifetimes! Australia would be considered a medium to low humidity place, by most reckonings. Extreme humidity cycles like you get in Southern Ontario are probably the toughest test of any glue.

Been many times. I think you're confusing rainy weather with humidity. They're not the same thing. You can have a lot of rain and still have a relatively low humidity level.

Humidity is directly related to air temperature and available water. So yes Australia as a whole has a low humidity level because it's mostly arid and semi arid land. But where 99% of the population lives the average temp and available water allow for much higher humidity levels than would be found in Britain on a consistent and sustained time frame. To prove it - take a nice cold beer in Australia and watch what happens. It will have water running off it and will get warm real fast from the gaseous water condensing on the outside. Take a cold beer in Britain and yes it will gather water on the outside, but far less than here. And it won't warm up nearly as fast.

Ontario is a really humid place but only for a couple months a year. For at least 6 months a year the humidity level is almost 0. Those wild extremes in temp and humidity are very hard on woodwork. I've seen enough eastern Canada furniture and the movement that results from such large swings - many a severely cupped board and failed glue joint.

[sinjin]

Resorcinol, easily

[artme]

Toldjaweneedaglueforum.:p:p:p:p

[ian]

durability.Bob

you can't just say durability without also mentioning the exposure conditions

inside / outside
protected from rain
subject to swings in humidity 9air conditioned environment)

etc


ian

now I'll read some more posts

[echnidna]

inside, for a very pale timber similar to Kauri (macrocarpra)

[ian]

Bob

I think you have your answer

a traditional glue fish, hide or casin — I'm not sure which will have the lighter glue line.

seeing as you're carving I'd steer away from the expoxies and the like for fear that the glue lines will show up as small irregularities in the carving strokes — is that the right term?


ian

[jimbur]

One other thing about hide glue. Cows probably will still be around when the chemical feedstock for the modern glue manufacture has run out.:D
Jim

[Chikoroll]

megapoxy is bloody good stuff, we've been using it going on 30+ years, even when those customers want the same job repaired, it is always the old glue failing, the epoxy still holds up
inside, outside, in the car, in direct sunlight, you name it, never had it fail...only the timber it was glued to...

[ptc]

i use garrett wade for boxes

[Woodwould]

One other thing about hide glue. Cows probably will still be around when the chemical feedstock for the modern glue manufacture has run out.:D
Jim

Don't bet on it Jim. The way this world is going, beef will be entirely superseded by soya protein and milk is already well on the way to being replaced by soya too, so the poor old moo-cow's days could be numbered!

However, as long as punters keep backing the nags we shouldn't run out of 'proper' glue.
:flog: