Buying a lathe

[JMCQ]

Hi all,

Ok...basically I am looking at buying a lathe for gunsmithing purposes...so only really need a small(ish) lathe.

I was looking at something along the lines of the Grizzly G4003G lathe http://www.grizzly.com/products/Gunsmith-s-Bench-Top-Lathe-with-Stand/G4003G

Basically cause its about the right size and setup.

Any ideas/experiences etc.

Does anyone know who actually manufactures these things??

At this stage, I am happy to startsmaller and cheaper...so long as i can fit barrels and turn out small parts (ie what a gunsmith does) i will be content .

Can always buy something exceptional once I have made more money in years to come.

If these things are made in China I do have a mate that imports containers of stuff regularly from China and could 'borrow' some container space.

Thanks,
John

[Greg Q]

Lathes with the same or broadly similar features are available from local sellers, either Hare and Forbes or eBay. They are all made in China at that price point. I think you have to spend more than $10K to get a Taiwanese made machine of similar specs. A European machine of the same envelope would be unaffordable if you could get one.

So...there are various groups on Yahoo for owners of Chinese made lathes. There are many well documented fixes for their shortcomings. I don't know anything about gunsmithing. Do you need accurate work holding? Are you going to have to cut a range of threads including some very fine threads? Are you going to be working in harder, less machine friendly steels? are you going to be working on small diameter pieces, and do you plan on using carbide insert tooling?

I ask these questions (and many, many more;-)) because the lathe you ref'd has no collets included. (Collets that allow workpieces to mounted through the spindle would be an advantage, especially in the 5C size.) The chucks supplied will be...well, put it this way: two good chucks new would cost more than that entire lathe.

It has a QC toolpost with one holder, which kinda defeats the whole idea. It also appears to be the 'button type of holder, not nearly as nice or rigid as a wedge type.

The range of speeds is too low for carbide tooling on small dia. parts

It has a single phase motor, not optimum if surface finish is important.

It doesn't say if it cuts every thread in its stated range which may or may not be significant.

I expect that others with direct experience with Chinese machines will weigh in-I hope so at any rate. My observations are based only on the spec sheet-no direct experience. What I do have direct experience in is buying older high spec machines. That path too has pitfalls: dealers with inflated expectations of value, wear and tear that takes months to fix, missing and often unavailable parts, bizarre and arcane restoration tools and procedures, industrial mass, industrial power requirements. But its fun, and the only way to get an affordable very high quality machine tool short of spending very high quality money*.

*I have a friend that just spent, and I kid you not, $50K to upgrade to a better lathe of about the same size as that Grizzly.

Good luck.

Greg

Greg

[damian]

Boy. Well if you want my opinion you couldn't buy a worse machine for gunsmithing.

Have you actually done much gunsmithing ? Most of it is handwork. I suppose you could turn a barrel but they are often forged, including and especially the rifling.

If it's specifically for making small arms you don't need that much capacity but you do need a very precise machine. The asian machines are pretty ordinary. I know that will offend some here but I can show you in no uncertain terms how and why they fall down.

If I was in your position and had room for a machine that size I'd keep an eye on ebay and pick up an old colchester student or master. A mk1 student went in melbourne a few weeks back for $1800. 12" swing, infinitely better machine than that thing. I know the dealers ask $6k and up for them but it doesn't mean you have to pay that. Have a look on ebay.co.uk at the dean smith and grace machines. These are the rolls royce of lathes and they literally give them away over there. It'll cost you about $2k to bring one into aus. 13" X 30" is their smallest machine. Sexier than Sofia Loren...

You MIGHT get by with a long bed hercus assuming you can find one, but they aren't as stiff as I'd want for guns. A hercus 260 is a tad bigger than the more common 9" and about $1500 as opposed to the $950 you pay for a 9". A normal 9" and 260 has a 2' bed which is a bit short.

Whatever you get get a good set of collets. They are cheap as chips these days and you'll have a slightly better chance at accuracy.

If it were me I'd be building a forge and getting some good quality files....

2c

[Fossil]

If I had the hobby money to spare, This is the machine that I would get for that sort of work. It didn't sell, so the vendoe may negotiate.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=300230976717&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=020

[Big Shed]

That link appears to have disappeared Fossil.

[damian]

CVA, very nice, but much dearer.

As I say you could probably land a DS&G for about $4k. Doesn't have the bells and whistles of that machine but rigidity and precision is no problem!

Possibly a philosophical point. I've never, for example, liked chipmasters. Electronically variable drive and that chunky rigid bed, but they are a pain to clean and I find I can get the speeds I want from an old fashioned gearbox. Never could get used to twiddling the dial. I'd have a student any day.

Then again I quite like bridgeports too so I must be a heathen...:)

Put this number into ebay search:

300230976717

[Greg Q]

That link still works for me...a CVA MkI in Mt Martha Victoria. The seller's starting bid was $6K. I think that's good value* considering the stuff included.

High quality lathes that I have seen for sale in the past year:

CVA
Monarch (but not the 10EE)
Schaublin 125
Casaneuve
Hembrug
Weiler
Colchester (I think)
DSG as Damian mentioned
Takisawa
Hardinge.

The problem with toolroom quality machines like this is that they would have been the best machines in whichever shop they were installed. As such, they would have been the 'go-to' machines, and would have seen the most use and most wear.

Machine restoration is a kind of a hobby too, but obviously not for most people. I don't know where you'd go for an affordable new machine that wouldn't be a disappointment.

*Compared to the proper equipping of a new or bare machine. It is possible to spend big big money on "stuff".

[Big Shed]

That link still works for me...a CVA MkI in Mt Martha Victoria.

This is what I get.

Found it through the number damian listed above.

[damian]

Where did you see a dsg for sale ?

The only ones I've seen are in the uk, where, frustratingly, they seem to be common and cheap. I've nott seen one for sale lately in aus. If I missed one I'd like to know more...:) How much ? where ? etc...

[Fossil]

Where did you see a dsg for sale ?

The only ones I've seen are in the uk, where, frustratingly, they seem to be common and cheap. I've nott seen one for sale lately in aus. If I missed one I'd like to know more...:) How much ? where ? etc...
OK.... here is a copy of the ebay ad from the seller.
Please take note: I do not have any affiliation with the seller. I just like the look of the lathe. As I said before, If I had money to throw around on such purchases.... this would be the style of lathe It would be looking at. :)



Regrettably I have for sale my home workshop equipment (see my milling machine listed seperately). This lathe is a model 1A series 3, which was manufactured in England in the 1950's. At that time it was sold for approximately 25,000 pounds. I don't know how best to describe this machine, other than it is the best lathe I have ever used, and is extremely accurate. It has not had a hard life, to my knowledge it has been used as a home workshop machine for the last 20 years at least. The following website contains all the technical information on this machine http://www.lathes.co.uk/cva/index.html (http://www.lathes.co.uk/cva/index.html)
The entire machine is one piece cast iron (no stand) and is very heavy. It doesn't need anchoring to the floor, and in fact has no provision for doing so. It has approximately 30" between centres and a 12" throw. It comes with 3 jaw, 4 jaw and faceplate, plus numerous supports and tools. It also has a quick release tool holder. This machine, together with the milling machine I am selling seperately, would be ideal for a small machine shop or serious home workshop. Please don't mistake this lathe for one of the various chinese machines available today, they are chalk and cheese.
This is a 3 phase machine and is very heavy. You will need to factor in the cost of moving by a professional mover. Please feel free to call me with any questions. David 0409 603 749. I have a very genuine reason for selling.

[Greg Q]

The DSG that Damian asks about was in the Trading Post last year. In Dandenong. I was thinking about it but it was a (I think) 60" BC machine...about four tonnes of nice* that I couldn't rig into my garage. On the other hand I needed a crane truck anyway for my Hembrug, but I can use a pallet jack on it which would have been impossible for the DSG. (Also, didn't feel like rewiring for the 25 hp motor, and I wanted to leave some room for a someday mill).

*nice in the context that it is British. I guess oil leaks are appropriate on a lathe:2tsup:

Cheers

Greg

[damian]

ROFLOL :D Hysterical.

I don't know how keen I'd be for one that big, but the short bed 15" or a 13X30 is a convenient size.

25 hp. Wouldn't you enjoy watching the street lights dim every time you started it up ?

I should also mention I've never used a CVA so i suppose I shouldn't comment on them, but they are a type of lathe that just doesn't float my boat. I remember using a swiss mill years ago - cna't remember the name. Beautiful thing, 1 motor for everything and ran like a clock, but if anyone asked me to overhaul one I'm sure I'd have a breakdown. Utterly bizarre. I guess I just like conventional, but well built, stuff.

[matthew_g]

Hi there fossil,I looked at that lathe myself,Its a beuty.he also had a nice mill too.

[wheelinround]

Fossil that lathe sold for $6k

Looks like the lathes they had at School back in the 60's

[Fossil]

Fossil that lathe sold for $6k

Hmmmm. I have it saved in my ebay watched list and it has it as ended auction with 0 bidders?????

[wheelinround]

Hmmmm. I have it saved in my ebay watched list and it has it as ended auction with 0 bidders?????


:doh: Just saw the $6k

[Studley 2436]

One name I did notice that is worth checking is the Takisawa. The Japanese do some really good stuff. The number one best God asks these guys for advice and of the Europeans not even Hermle can equal is Mori Seiki. Find an old Mori and you will be amazed.

Japanese machines there are many, Mazak (aka Yamazaki) Matsushita and many others as well.

I have worked on a few lathes ie made stuff using lathes but no nothing about doing gun barrels that is a specialist area, however you must be careful to get your lathe properly leveled. It isn't actually the bed being level or not that matter but it is really important that the level or out of level is the same all the way along. Basically the same amount of support on all the feet. If it is not you get twisting of the bed and no chance of doing accurate work along a long length.

Put this here for the regular forum guys. The original poster seems to have done a hit and run

Studley

[Fossil]

My father.... now very old and in a nursing home, used to say all the time......

If you could make a drill bit so fine that that you could hardly see it, and give it to the Japs, they could drill a hole right down the guts of it.

Just thought I would share a statement that I grew up with. I think I heard the old fella say that over 1000 times as I was growing up. :?

[Dingo Dog]

I remember growing up when I was young and the talk was "Made in Japan", its junk, I remember the Poms saying that you could not build a 2 stroke larger then a 250, wouldn't work, Suzuki brought out a 500 twin, it worked great, I use to drag race one back in the late sixties down at the Surfers International Drag Raceway. "Its a golf course now". The Japs just got better and better at making stuff, we have their TV's in our lounge room, their cars in our garages. Then it was Taiwan's turn. "Taiwanese junk". They make some good industrial equipment. Its China's turn now, it must be junk. give them time gents and they will be up there where the Britsh use to be with quality and where the yanks once had it. As for making gun bits and pieces check to see if that is legal first or do you need a license, you could be mistaken for another Hicks if the neighbour's are up to what your are doing, last rifle barrel I looked had had lathe turn marks all the way down to where it screwed into the breech, so I am not sure if they are forged, getting the lands or rifling in will require a special tool that you may have to make yourself.

Buy a CNC machine, learn programming then sit back and watch the "Marzookas" being made for you. (just joking)

Buy what you can afford at the time, the older machines require some knowledge, if you are into belts, knobs and dials chasing parts and a long wait in between before turning anything then that is your path (good luck).

Sure would love one of them fancy Colchester lathes though but I have not got the $12,000 starting price for one.

D D

[damian]

Factories make gun barrels off production machines made specially for it. The outside of the barrel doesn't matter, it's not the business end. I assume if he wants to make 1 off gun parts at home he's going for quality. If you cut rifling and bore on a lathe you won't get target rifle accuracy. It can be done, but the machine will have to be properly set up for it. The rifling is more like a flute than threads, long pitch and you have to get the corners perfect so the spin it puts on the bullet is consistent and it doesn't encourage bits of bullet to stick, clogging the barrel making inconsisent shooting and requiring more frequent cleaning.

So it's easier to do on a forge or with a broach and some handwork.

Also most of the bits of the firing mechanism aren't cylindrical, and whether they are or not it's all about fit. The levers that connect the trigger to the firing pin have to slide smoothly and snap crisply. Again a factory can afford speciaised and quality tooling to get consistent results, but ask any shooter who's had a rifle "fiddled" by a good gunsmith how much nicer it is afterwards.

Most gunsmiths have a lathe in the corner, but it's not the "go to" machine, as the Americans would say. It's a handy side issue. It's like saying you need a router table to make a gun stock. Yes you could use it for a few things but it's not the primary tool.

If you asked me to make a quality gun I'd want a forge, anvil, hacksaw, hammers and a good set of files.

Of course a lathe is always nice to have :)

BTW for clarity I wasn't bagging any _quality_ lathe from any source. If the chinese/Taiwanese have started making quality machines more power to them, but the ones I've seen have issues. I haven't used some of the machines mentioned above, I'm happy to believe they are great. Of the machines I have used I have my preferences. Colchesters are IMO a minimum standard. Well set up you can extract good work from them. Some of the asian stuff I've seen you virtually have to reengineer the machine to make it work properly, and if your going to do that you might as well buy an older machine and recondition it. I paid $800 for the hercus, and no new asian machine I've seen for that money has power cross feed. I've seen triumphs go for about $4k and you won't buy a chinese machine that size new for that money as far as I know. I'd just prefer an old mk1 to a new chinese thing. I know I can get the mk1 to go, and once sorted it'll give a lifetimes service. Personal preference.

[Studley 2436]

Have been on all sorts of machines. The best ones were all Japanese. Mazak and Okuma in particualar BUT big but too the Mori Seiki's are on a higher level again.

Have been on lots of English machines decent for old manual machines but I think it is more of a once were great type of thing. Actually another place to look is Korea. Daewoo is known for making some good stuff, but I personally think they are not as good as the Mazaks and co of the world but they are good machines.

For price buying a machine Mori and Daewoo's hold their value really well. There are many Jap machines that don't keep value but at the money you are getting something much better than the Mori you will get for the same money. Daewoos too when they are old seem to go for prices more than they deserve. I saw a really nice Hidekai the other week on ebay. Was a 4 axis lathe with a single turret and live tooling. It was 25 years old looked very good the shop it was in looked very good and it sold for $17,000 US. had an 87 mm spindle bore 25 HP and was good for 4000 rpm. I think the turret had 12 tool positions. It was a really good machine only old Any piece of junk equivalent here in Oz would go for $100,000 plus so there are some good bargains out there.

I don't know about making guns but lathes are my trade. The hard thing about a rifle barrel is that is is very long and it must be parallel all the way down. Drilling is hard because a drill will wander away from centre after about two or three times its diameter. Can be quiet a bit off when you get through a bit of steel. So you have to allow enough to bore it correctly. A borning bar is good for a bore about 4 times it's diameter. So if you are doing a 9mm bore you could make it about 36mm long! After that it gets hard. I suspect they do a rifle bore by running a broach through it. Making long stuff really parallel isn't easy, in fact if you were boring a rifle you might find that halfway in between supports it flexes as you bore it giving you a smaller diameter bore. As you go down it the bar could flex giving you taper, big at the near end small at the far end. I would reckon that people use some very specialised tools to do all this stuff.

Which doesn't mean I am trying to rain on anyone's parade because there are many who do this stuff at home for their pleasure and even to get a gun that is just what they want to shoot with. It can be done but don't think it is that easy.

Practical Machinist has a gun forum you might find some stuff there.

Studley

[Greg Q]

.....looked very good and it sold for $17,000 US. ..... It was a really good machine only old... Any piece of junk equivalent here in Oz would go for $100,000 plus so there are some good bargains out there.Studley

That is also true at the 'bottom feeder' level that most of us find ourselves in. I have a hankering for a particular kind of small mill. A couple of months ago I had two available. One in Sydney, but 1937 vintage, dealer wanted over $13K. The other was in south Carolina, 1970's vintage. Shipped it was going to be $6K, including taxes. There were even cheaper ones on eBay U.S. at the time too.

(I remain sans mill currently...still knee deep in two lathe restorations which will take another year or so at present rate)

(anybody got a laser collimator that I can borrow?)

Greg

[Woodlee]

I have used a lot of different lathes over the years ,ones I remember ,
Colchesters
Macson
South bend
Hercus
Dean Smith and Grace ,actually rebuilt this one it was of 1916 vintage and a magnificent piece of kit Still going today too.
Mazak
Harrison


You'll waste a lot of time and materials trying to make your own barrels most gunsmiths buy blanks already rifled and cut the threads and ream the breech to required cartridge .Special drills are required (gundrills) for deep drilling barrels ,these cut on one side only and are solid on the other to support the cutting edge and prevent wandering ,they also have a coolant port drilled through them , high pressure coolant is force fed down the centre of the drill to flush away swarf and metal chips.
http://www.sterlinggundrills.com/deep_hole_gun_drills.shtml
http://www.dmetool.com/
http://www.hammco.com/gundrills_gundrilldesign.htm
The second link has a video of a gun drill in action ,ok if you have a fast connection.

There are a few ways to rifle a barrel but the two most common methods are forged where the barrel is drilled and a male spigot with the rifling in reverse is placed in the hole in the blank ,the blank is then heated and hammered onto the male spigot.The spigot is with drawn and the rifling is then lapped smooth ,the outside taper is machined after wards..
The other method is button swageing or broaching ,where a carbide button is drawn through the barrel as the barrel is rotated at the required twist.

A fascinating process of engineering that has always interested me.

Kev

[Dingo Dog]

Interesting link there Woodley, no I can put a name to that funny looking drill bit in the Hornady reloading book.

D D

[Fossil]

I have dealt with a machinist guy recently, who looking at the work he turns out seems to know his stuff. He has a Mazac which he says is the best machine he has ever used. He reckons it will go to the grave with him.

I was looking around this morning and noticed a nice looking Takisawa here.
http://www.machines4u.com.au/view/?advert_id=2879&industry_id=2&category_id=36&subcategory_id=0&keywords=&location=&gclid=COSUiJ6khJQCFRwvagodWhd3WA&order=price&page=2

It would be real nice to have a decent heavy lathe in my workshop.
Toys Toys Toys, as my wife says. :rolleyes:

[Greg Q]

That image is lifted right out of an old catalogue though, unless I'm missing another link. There is/was one on eBay this week too. The dealer that has it lists a few things every week, sells a couple of things a year. I think that his price expectations are optimistic to say the least.

There was a university Takisawa toolroom last year that only fetched $4,400 complete, pristine, tooling up the wazoo. I may even have posted it here with no replies at the time.

I have only read good things about Mazak machines too. If I ever get the space and money and permission all at the same time I might go hunting for one. Toys toys toys is right. Sometimes even the quest is toy enough...

[Studley 2436]

actually if you want to learn ISO code you can get a CNC machine slant bed and as much as 6000 rpm for under 10000. Some real good value out there.

There are bigger machines that have lower speeds and more power for machining bigger stuff but you don't need a machine that size for home use.

Studley

[Metal Head]

I remember growing up when I was young and the talk was "Made in Japan", its junk, I remember the Poms saying that you could not build a 2 stroke larger then a 250, wouldn't work, Suzuki brought out a 500 twin, it worked great, I use to drag race one back in the late sixties down at the Surfers International Drag Raceway. "Its a golf course now". The Japs just got better and better at making stuff, we have their TV's in our lounge room, their cars in our garages. Then it was Taiwan's turn. "Taiwanese junk". They make some good industrial equipment. Its China's turn now, it must be junk. give them time gents and they will be up there where the Britsh use to be with quality and where the yanks once had it.

I couldn't agree more - as I have often said that - however given my experience working with Chinese students and tradespeople it maybe a while yet given that they (generally speaking) think it is more important to do the job asap rather than concentrating on quality

Buy what you can afford at the time, the older machines require some knowledge, if you are into belts, knobs and dials chasing parts and a long wait in between before turning anything then that is your path (good luck).

Sure would love one of them fancy Colchester lathes though but I have not got the $12,000 starting price for one.

Given that the company I presently work for bought a brand new one only 2 years ago I was very disappointed with it (it won't take cuts of more than 5mm deep on MS without stalling. They have a much older 2000 version that is used more often by the F&T's (they don't build them like they used to:wink:).

The best lathes I have ever used was a DSG that (were in the 60's to 80's) classed as the rolls royce of lathes in the UK. The best one I have worked on over here is a Okuma:wink:. It is so well made - it even has the wheel on the tailstock set at 120 degrees to the axis so you can operate it from the front. However I haven't ever used a Mori Seiki's or Takisawa yet so maybe the best is yet to come? MH

D D

Btw, that lathe that was mentioned on EBay earlier was being sold by a guy that was also selling an excellent Bridgeport that went for around the $6000+ mark.

Ta
MH