Solo "Expedition" Sailboat

[EJK]

I'm am quickly closing in on the completion of an OZ PDRacer. It's been a lot of fun to build for my 10 year old son and me. It's now time to start looking for the next boat to build. I really liked the plans and building detail provided with the OZ PDRacer (thanks Michael), and have purchased plans for the GIS. However, I'm not certain it's the boat I'm looking for.

Ideally, I would like the next sailboat to offer the following, in order of importance:
1) Simple construction - like the GIS - I know the limit of my abilities.
2) A open boat that could be comfortably sailed on week long cruises on remote inland waters singlehanded.
3) The ability to row efficiently.
4) The ability to sleep in the boat when conditions warrant.

What would you recommend?

Thanks,

EJK

[b.o.a.t.]

Something like Bolger's "Windsprint" or "June Bug" (plans in "Build the new instant boats") come most immediately to mind. But I've not heard anything about their sailing ability. Might be dogs to sail.

The centreboard of most sharpie skiffs is the killer. Need that space to sleep in. Ask MIK nicely & he might draw a version of GIS with off-set dagger-board/s & removeable thwart. 2 boards might allow them to be shorter too.

Go for a more complex construction & the possibilities expand exponentially. Welsford's "Walkabout" fits almost exactly your last 3 requirements, but not the first!!

Matt Laydon's "Paradox" or "Enigma" are another, totally different, way of tackling it, sculling with a yuloh rather than rowing.

cheers
AJ

[Boatmik]

Howdy - good suggestions AJ,

I am rather fond of June Bug but a Yawl/Ketch rig would make her into more of an expedition boat.

I was put in mind of Bolger's Jinni, but I think it would end up too heavy and bulky - a powerful sailing machine.

I would build in big buoyancy tanks front and back - maybe so she looks a bit like Beth. If you plan the supporting framework properly you could do the deck and all internals of 4mm ply to keep the weight down. But it does mean a lot of volume to bail out if you capsize.

So it would then make sense for the middle part to have a raised floor and be self draining. Not so convenient for rowing - unless you raise the rowlocks or raise the sheer a couple of inches.

People always put too much weight into expedition boats - particularly in terms of fibreglass - which adds heaps of weight. I'd use one layer of the lightest woven glass I can get over the bottom panel and an inch onto the side panels - and only if there were lots of rocks - if there are sandy or grassy or leafy spots - you won't need it.

There are other suitable boats possibly - but what I would avoid is weight (you have to handle the boat on the land by yourself too) and beam (which relates to weight and seakindliness) - this makes it a lot harder to handle a boat on shore as well.

Use the rudder and centreboard design from the PDR to make new foils for whatever you do and set up the rig using the info I give on my site for setting up trad rigs for performance - am sure June bug will go quite OK - might be tempted to pull her transom in a little bit narrower to improve sailing when heeled. Any boat with a jib will be more expensive and more difficult to sail singlehanded - I've done a lot of it and jibless two masted boats are a revelation (I've also done a lot of that).

I hope this gives some hints. Please feel free to keep discussing here.

I love Matt Leyden's boats, but I suspect that they are an amount of building commensurate with their huge capability.

MIK

[b.o.a.t.]

G'day MIK
having voiced it in passing, now I'm asking - what about a "GIS Cruiser" ?
The hull is a proven performer - re-jig the interior as a performance touring boat for sheltered waters.
A hybrid of GIS/Beth/PDR/other for rivers, lakes & fjords.

Dual off-set dagger boards to give clear sleeping & lounging space down the middle, like Windsprint. Maybe incorporated into extended side buoyancy / stowage compartments to brace the sides & bottom under PDR-style decks instead of the spaced inwales. Reinforce the bottom between the boards to compensate for loss of closed box rigidity ?

One or two masts option. Two masts using Beth's steering set-up.

Moveable rowing thwart/s a la Bolger Sweet Pea, or just loose seats. I used a cut-down Coke crate for a long time - very stable. Padded stove box also an option. Or yuloh.

Adds complication & weight, & cuts performance, yes.
It should still be a faster & simpler boat than most 'cruising' boats.

Is there another boat like that on the market?
Would there even be a market for such a skiff cruiser ?
What is the bleedin' obvious that I have missed which makes this a silly idea?

cheers
AJ
(and yes, I have been thinking about this a while - since the moment I laid eyes on Midge's GIS)

[EJK]

That's the boat I'm looking for - A GIS Cruiser! I have the plywood. Just need the plans...

The stories from Texas200 PDRs were inspiring. However, that's a loooong way to go in an 8'x4' box, no matter what kind of foils or sail rigs you use.

EJK

[Boatmik]

Yes a longer boat will average considerably faster speeds and also be able to deal well with a variety of conditions.

Best wishes
Michael

[b.o.a.t.]

Yes a longer boat will average considerably faster speeds and also be able to deal well with a variety of conditions.
Best wishes
Michael


Avoiding the question Michael !!

A GIS Cruiser as described departs from the original concept of the lightest fastest simplest 15-footer that it is. Adds $$ & Kg.

Would it work ? Would you do it ?

cheers
AJ

[Boatmik]

Actually I would be more keen to do a square boat - a bit like Junebug and a bit like Beth in terms of decking.and keep the volume of the hull right down.

Off centre centreboard. Ketch rig.

Then the PDRacer plans could almost work in terms of construction - for a box boat. Chines are square.

In other words I think the Goat is a bad place to start. The PDRs make more sense I think.

Particularly if anyone ever wants to see some plans. Squareboats are easier to design and something that was proven might have more market appeal particularly if it looked really simple.

MIK

[b.o.a.t.]

Actually I would be more keen to do a square boat - a bit like Junebug and a bit like Beth in terms of decking.and keep the volume of the hull right down.


The bit about square chines I think I understand. At least from a simplicity angle.

Am a bit lost on keeping the volume down other than to contain weight & cost. Surely a larger boat would be drier & less twitchy at rest? & if engineered with the economy of your other designs, not greatly penalised in weight ? If 'expeditioning', it is likely a fair bit of gear will be loaded aboard, so some volume required. Also ease of handling on land would be somewhat sacrificed anyway due to stores. Overcome with some sort of trolley, or a pair of wheels which slip into fixed axle sockets like what Matt L did to portage Enigma across Florida in '07.
cheers
AJ

[CCBB]

I think a GIS-cruiser would have wide appeal...I'd look at it. A little more length and capacity, a small mizzen to make it into a yawl, and stowage places (for bags) would be the only key things. With the RAID thing catching on here in the States, Wooden Boats Small Reach Regatta particularly, I would love to see some GIS-type boats in the mix. The nice thing about the GIS for such a purpose is that it would be super light for beaching. There is my plug for a new GIS cruiser. Michael, don't you have a raid boat in the works. Would love to heare more about it.

Back to this post...I can't stress enough the importance of having a mizzen for cruising or for making day sails more comfortable and safe for that matter. Being able to heave to or lie head to wind under mizzen while reefing or dealing with gear stowage or attending to an emergency is vital. Switching between oar and sail with the mizzen up makes the operation easier, more enjoyable, and safer. I don't plan to have a sail-and-oar boat without a mizzen. I'd push for a yawl over a ketch only because the mizzen in a yawl is aft and out of the way. However, a ketch may be better for dividing the sail area up into smaller pieces, which has a lot of advantages too.

Cheers,
Clint

[Boatmik]

Howdy All,

The problem is ... that everyone wants more and more in their boats - so boats get bigger and more complex - this is starting to happen in the faster RAID boats.

If you want to win a Raid monohull division a stretched ketch rigged GIS would be a good choice. It would take a lot of attention to sail it hard and the result would be rewarding in those terms. (nov 2008 - I would revise this now having looked more closely. RAID boats are turning into big expensive Skiff type boats with lots of sail and crew ... I don't think the stretched Goat could compete against such big powerful machines)

BUT - how many people are wanting to win vs wanting to participate?

In that case the market is actually in something that has good average speeds without taking too much concentration to sail.

I have learned a lot from watching the PDRs do the Texas200.

The only real problem to the boats was that while they certainly seemed seaworthy enough and tough enough, the lower average speed of the boat means a lot of hours of sailing and fatigue of the crew. The main flaw of two of the boats were that they couldn't get to windward efficiently - the Texas200 is a predominantly downwind and reaching race.

Things that are fairly essential on the list.

Somewhere to sit out of the water
Not too much bailing after a capsize or completely self draining
Easily reefed
Light enough to pull back into the water if you go aground
Good windward performance with plenty of water and reasonable with restricted water depth.
The biggest single problem is fatigue - so to make sure that the boat makes good progress without excessive amounts of attention.


Best wishes
MIK

[EJK]

MIK,

You make great points. I fully agree that there will always be a push towards bigger more complex boats. However, the Texas200 also showed that there are a lot of people looking to simply participate. The growing interest in PDRs reinforces this.

I also feel that there a more than a couple of people looking for a boat that is simple to build, with good lines, that meets your essentials list. The boat we seem to be looking for doesn't seem to be out there and I am not creative or skilled enough to begin modifying an existing plan. I pulled the following post from Piccum off of the Texas200 forum:


"I started thinking about the ideal characteristics of a Gulf coast beach cruiser during the Texas 200. Up to Aransas bay, my Piccup pram did a great job of handling following waves and running downwind. In the bay I was reminded of the limitations of a pram bow when beating into large waves. I really liked the light weight of my boat, when moving it around in the shallows and pulling up on the beaches.

Chuck-- what about the idea of a design competition for a G.C. beach cruiser based on the practical information gained from the Texas 200?"

There are a large number plans for bigger, more complex boats. I don't have the interest, the skills nor the time necessary to build one well. I want to participate (of course I want to sail fast while looking good too)!

EJK

[Boatmik]

MIK,

You make great points. I fully agree that there will always be a push towards bigger more complex boats. However, the Texas200 also showed that there are a lot of people looking to simply participate. The growing interest in PDRs reinforces this. I pulled the following post from Piccum off of the Texas200 forum:


"I started thinking about the ideal characteristics of a Gulf coast beach cruiser during the Texas 200. Up to Aransas bay, my Piccup pram did a great job of handling following waves and running downwind. In the bay I was reminded of the limitations of a pram bow when beating into large waves. I really liked the light weight of my boat, when moving it around in the shallows and pulling up on the beaches.

Chuck-- what about the idea of a design competition for a G.C. beach cruiser based on the practical information gained from the Texas 200?"

There are a large number plans for bigger, more complex boats. I don't have the interest, the skills nor the time necessary to build one well. I want to participate (of course I want to sail fast while looking good too)!

EJK

Yep - that is why I am drawn to a square boat.

But it is easy enough to find some form that makes it look good. After all we have BETH as an example of what can be done with a simple hull form.

http://www.storerboatplans.com/Beth/Beth8.jpg

Luckily I believe that the things that make a boat look good are independent of the things that make it go fast. It makes it easy to do both!

MIK (with hubris)

[CCBB]

The Small Reach here in Maine isn't really a raid but attracts the raid type sail-and-oar boats. Most people that go as crew want to either build one for the following year or commission one if they could afford it...when approached about this I have given my price and they have said "oh that is a lot of money....what is out there that I could build by next summer's event"? I usually scratch my head. They could do a GIS in that time!

I think a mizzen has to be on the essentials list.

I am looking at building a dory after the GIS and using the GIS rig in the dory...to save time and money and I'll draw a new interior for the dory that will include a mizzen and the new C/B location and side benches. I see the dory as another example of simplicity. Still a lot of work though!

Cheers,
Clint

[robhosailor]

But it is easy enough to find some form that makes it look good. After all we have BETH as an example of what can be done with a simple hull form.

http://www.storerboatplans.com/Beth/Beth8.jpg

Luckily I believe that the things that make a boat look good are independent of the things that make it go fast. It makes it easy to do both!


Yes! Beth is probably simplest to build fine boat and ...prettiest box in the Universe! :U (and this photo is beautiful indeed)
Tell to the truth: She is probably suitable as "spartan" weekend solo cruiser for well experienced sailor. She is my favourite small boat and I intend to use her for that purpose :)
(on the not defined future...:bigcry:)

[keyhavenpotter]

This sketch used to be on the web site- is this what people have in mindhttp://www.flickr.com/photos/27848841@N05/2596989951/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/27848841@N05/2596989951/)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/27848841@N05/2596989951/

[Joost]

Michael,

So what ever happened to the extended version of the GIS that you were working on (Goat Island Skiff thread, post number 12)?

The drawing attached to that message looks very promissing, especially for people what want to get involved in raids and the like!

Regards, Joost

[Boatmik]

Hi Joost,

I am still quietly talking about that in the background. I am not planning to do plans for general release at this point as I think it will be quite a demanding (specialist) boat, unlike the one I am talking about here.

Best wishes
Michael

[Boatmik]

Yes! Beth is probably simplest to build fine boat and ...prettiest box in the Universe! :U (and this photo is beautiful indeed)
Tell to the truth: She is probably suitable as "spartan" weekend solo cruiser for well experienced sailor. She is my favourite small boat and I intend to use her for that purpose :)
(on the not defined future...:bigcry:)

All future is not defined Robhosailor! I know you know exactly what I mean!!!!

MIK

[m2c1Iw]

Hi Joost,

I am still quietly talking about that in the background. I am not planning to do plans for general release at this point as I think it will be quite a demanding (specialist) boat, unlike the one I am talking about here.

Best wishes
Michael

Hi Michael,
By demanding are you suggesting like a Light Weight Sharpie with a balanced lug?:D:D
Looking at the pic I couldn't help think a GIS with an extra couple of feet and elements of Beth would be a pretty exciting boat.
I hope you continue the development I have the GIS on the build list but if you can retain the beaut lines in a Raid version this little black duck would be interested.

Mike

[robhosailor]

All future is not defined Robhosailor! I know you know exactly what I mean!!!!

Exactly Michael! :):):)

BTW: What do you think about use Beth as a spartan solo weekend cruiser?
For example: Cocpit is probably long enaugh for sleepping aboard. There are a bit storage room in centrecase area - for modern sleepping bag, carimat and micro camping stove and for cocpit tent... :wink:

[keyhavenpotter]

MIK could you possibly expand a bit on what this Solo expedition boat is looking like in your current thoughts. It sounds very interesting. Is it a box boat with canoe beam or GIS type beam? When you are ready of course..........
Brian

[Boatmik]

Just a very rough idea ...

I hate the number of spars here - I don't want to make 5 - maybe I can compromise with shape a bit and have most of them almost square. I am not sure what that red box on the front of the cockpit is either - It might be to make waves airborne so they land in the sailor's lap.

Getting rid of the masts for a light weather RAID rowing ... this is not really a rowing racer - it is an expedition sailor capable of good speed under sail and a reasonable average under oar. Can't bring myself to put in a swinging centreboard and ruin that nice cockpit. Would probably sail quite well even with half the board up.

Has more rocker than BETH to reduce wetted surface in the light stuff - need to do this as it is over a foot wider which adds wetted surface. Can be reduced by heeling (also necessary with BETH in the light stuff)

Self draining cockpit which also gives some ability for water ballast - though I really don't like adding weight to boats and weight down low in little boats won't add much performance at all. Might make the boat safer though.

Might be quite pretty once I understand it a bit better.

Beam is around 4ft, length under 16, hull weight (wild guess 100lbs - 6mm bottom the rest in 4mm).

No supporting calcs for any of it. No checks on trim or checks for weird S shaped lines in 3D yet. No checks for handling problems when overpowered.

Oars would have to be on posts so they wouldn't hit the sidedecks. I won't get rid of the side decks - nothing makes a boat drier and more comfortable for being dry (except very high sides to the boat like the GIS).

MIK

[robhosailor]

WOW!!!:U
I like it!
She looks very interesting indeed... :2tsup:

[keyhavenpotter]

Thanks MIK. Very nice. Very desirable. Very quick.

Inexperienced with spar making - could the spars be put through a thicknesser to square them, again with wedges to taper them, then a router to radius the edges. 100 times better than trying to make round spars if it would work.

Brian

[robhosailor]

Inexperienced with spar making - could the spars be put through a thicknesser to square them, again with wedges to taper them, then a router to radius the edges. 100 times better than trying to make round spars if it would work.

In Jim Michalak's book "Boatbuilding for Beginners and Beyond" he recommend to make square (through a thicknesser) spars and oars first and make them octagonal (eight-side) with "Rotate gadget" and to make them sixteen-side - similar (the same) method is recommended by Boatmik but he recomend to round out them at finish.
Jim Michalak wrote (about oars making): "Now she's eight-sided. To round it you're supposed to sixteen-side it and then round it out. To tell to the truth, I leave mine eight-sided, including the handle and the area that fits in the rowlock." :;

[robhosailor]

...and my friend Radoslaw Werszko recommend to use aluminium tubes and spar profiles for less of time consumption:

(there is his recently started project Skiff 4.2 m which will be with sprit sail /different from shown one/- spars from aluminium tubes - not elegant? Probably yes, but less of time consumming:;)

http://www.dinghy.pl/42m_skiff.htm

[Boatmik]

Seeing we are talking design and performance here ...

There is a new article up on Duckworks (by me) about the antipodean view of boat design and how it feeds back into what I do.

Have a look
Why Storer thinks that OZ and NZ Boat wooden boat design and construction can punch above its weight (http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/08/columns/storer/index5.htm)

MIK

[Boatmik]

Thanks MIK. Very nice. Very desirable. Very quick.

Inexperienced with spar making - could the spars be put through a thicknesser to square them, again with wedges to taper them, then a router to radius the edges. 100 times better than trying to make round spars if it would work.

Brian

Yes - something like this approach - though using a thicknesser for tapering - too big a chance of a major stuff up.

And also only rounding the fronts of the spars - the backs are actually aerodynamically a shade more efficient square with slightly rounded corners.

MIK

[arbordg]

Mik,

What happened to the GIS-X? I thought she was designed specifically for this brief.

[Boatmik]

Howdy Dave,

That one is a bit more performance oriented for two sailors - this one is something that will take a bit more care of a single person. Be dead easy to build etc.

MIK

[robhosailor]

There is a new article up on Duckworks (by me) about the antipodean view of boat design and how it feeds back into what I do.

Have a look
Why Storer thinks that OZ and NZ Boat wooden boat design and construction can punch above its weight (http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/08/columns/storer/index5.htm)


Title of this article is: "Boat Design Without the Compromises"

I can see compromises there :; - performances are there but esthetics are first! Your boats are beautiful first than they have excellent performances :U ...

[keyhavenpotter]

MIK

thank you for very kindly putting up a concept drawing of this "Solo Expedition" dinghy. I end up not sleeping thinking about her.

Your piece on design compromise summarises for me as ending as 1+1 = 1.5 with poor compromises, or with good judgement the total can be greater than the sum of its parts and 1+1= 3.

This Solo design looks like the latter to me. Sort of PDR + Beth + GIS + Rowboat all combined to create something even better. 1+1+1+1 = 5

You have drawn exactly

what I need
what I can afford
what I can build with my skill level and space available
what I can store at home and at the dinghy club space
where I want to go with my sailing, dinghy cruising with ability to land and haul up the beach.

Since you did put up the drawing, does this mean you want to develop and release a design? No pressure......

Brian

[Boatmik]

Howdy Brian,

Life is so cruel - I have dozens of boats in my head at any point and one of them sometimes escapes. I am going to be out of touch for 24 hours so I promise to think about it.

As you are building an OZ .. this boat will have a similar structure so if I go ahead it will be pretty basic stuff and you will have to look at the OZ plans and work out what to do.

MIK

[Boatmik]

Title of this article is: "Boat Design Without the Compromises"

I can see compromises there :; - performances are there but aesthetics are first! Your boats are beautiful first than they have excellent performances :U ...

Actually I am not a great believer that you can make something beautiful and it will work well automatically. My sense is that the look of the boat is quite independent from the performance.

You can do a fast boat that looks ugly - or one that is just as quick that looks beautiful.

This is the problem with this boat as I have drawn it so far - it will look good but I want it to look better than that if possible. If I go ahead there will be opportunity for that.

Michael.

[robhosailor]

You can do a fast boat that looks ugly - or one that is just as quick that looks beautiful.


Generally I agree :U

But most of Jim Michalak's boats works well but people say about them "ugly" often...
Probably their utilitarian 'instant' character is for "open mind" only :;:;:;

[keyhavenpotter]

Yes life is cruel - if you have a dozen boats going round in your head your never going to get any sleep. Or is it the 3 o'clock thing where suddenly you wake up with the solution.

Perhaps basic plans and PDR instructions could start up this new design.

Brian

[keyhavenpotter]

Playing Swallows and Amazons through the salt marsh creeks, I am gybing in 15 knots of wind in practically no depth of water as I follow my leader through unfamilar very narrow channels. Perfect kind of water for a shallow draft boat such as Solo. Got me thinking about the dagger board and gybing when its raised full up but still in place?
With Solo being very canoe yawlish, my question is this. Could twin leeboards offer benefits? Leave cockpit clear for camping. Clear for gybing. But the main question, could twin boards be more efficient? Easy to fit to those verical sides. Could be asymetric? Happy to be shot down, just wanted to ask. Twin boards, long and slender, water ballast - sounds like an Open 60.

Brian.

[b.o.a.t.]

Playing Swallows and Amazons through the salt marsh creeks, I am gybing in 15 knots of wind in practically no depth of water as I follow my leader through unfamilar very narrow channels. Perfect kind of water for a shallow draft boat such as Solo. Got me thinking about the dagger board and gybing when its raised full up but still in place?
With Solo being very canoe yawlish, my question is this. Could twin leeboards offer benefits? Leave cockpit clear for camping. Clear for gybing. But the main question, could twin boards be more efficient? Easy to fit to those verical sides. Could be asymetric? Happy to be shot down, just wanted to ask. Twin boards, long and slender, water ballast - sounds like an Open 60.

Brian.

Michael can answer for himself.
Methinks not more efficent hydrodynamically. There is the point that deep narrow boards require depth of water to work properly. You describe shallow water ops. Twin wide, shallow boards would probably be better.

Then of course there are chine winglets / runners for really shallow water ops.

[keyhavenpotter]

Thanks b.o.a.t.
The very shallow stuff is always downwind through our salt marshes. We would sail upwind out in the Solent or in the main river, then complete the circuit back through the marshes for fun. So that's what got me thinking about dagger boards sticking up whilst gybing.

The second bit about leeboards is for the deeper water upwind where full depth of board is usable. I have never sailed a box boat so am talking through zero experience - very dangerous indeed - but was thinking about sailing her on port tack, she is heeled somewhat. That angle of heel will imerse the starboard chine, and that chine will be twice as deep as the centre line of the hull where the centre dagger board would be. I think! Flat hull cross section means half way across is half as deep as all the way across?

Thus a starboard leeboard would start off more imersed than a central daggerboard, probably in more disturbed water though than the central blade. Foil could be asymetric too, and angle just correctly for that tack. Just wondering........... Brian.

[b.o.a.t.]

G'day Brian
Looking at other designs eg. Bolger, I see that lee-boards & off-set centreboards in sharpies always seem to be at the widest point of the boat. My wild guess is that they have to be located thus for water flow close to the chine to be parallel to the board. Otherwise, turbulence, eddies, etc. That has cascading complications for sail plan & etc. Bolger discusses them at length, remarking that best results seem to be achieved with a 2 or 3 deg toe-in.

Short boards are less likely to foul the boom when gybing if stowed "up".
Gybing in 15kts wind in dead shallow water... shorten sail to maintain control & reduce likelihood of a dunking ?

My usual sailing spots include the narrow channels & shallows of which you speak. Much fun. But these days there is limited deep water between those shallows so I am biassed against deep boards.

cheers
AJ

[millhavenguy]

Ok Michael, just to keep this on top of the pile....any progress on the RAID 41 boat? Damn, she's lovely! Tell me where to send my money! No pressure though.............:)

David

[keyhavenpotter]

Quite right - the lead sailor had a reef in, took the trouble to check the forecast before she went out! I just turned up, wind was light so out I went. Great sail, and terrific beat back upwind out in the Solent.

If you sailed two PDR's against each other, one with the normal board and the other with it's board somehow clamped to the side, it would prove if leeboard on box boat any good?

Brian.

[CCBB]

FWIW, I have to offer my opinion of Michael's raid boat: it is too narrow. I think many people want a sail-and-oar boat that can double as a dayboat for themselves and the family and a semi-competitive RAID boat for the occassional weekend...few people have a quiver of boats to choose from...they need some multi-use function to their boat or boats. I would suggest that the boat needs to be more along the proportions of the GIS with an added mizzen for safety and performance when switching from row to sail and vice versa. I think the ablity to stow oars and other gear would also be important. From the sounds of it the GIS rows pretty well...a removable thwart that can be added for tandem rowing would make the boat quite rowable for competitive purposes. Perhaps a little stretch to the GIS and slight fining up beam-wise would help ...but I think the GIS is what people want, just RAID-ified a bit. I am skeptical that the current boat as drawn would have wide appeal, at least with respect to the RAID/Wooden Boat Small REach Regatta people I know. I think the cabin is not necessary in the raid boat.

My 2-cents.

Clint

[b.o.a.t.]

FWIW, I have to offer my opinion of Michael's raid boat: it is too narrow.
Clint


Maybe we should have two threads here.
Methinks Raid & Solo boats are quite different craft, albeit with some similarities.

This one to bat the breeze on a solo expedition / day cruiser.
- reasonable performance secondary & complementary to being safe & dry
- manageable by 1 person
- flat sleeping & good dry stowage for 1 or 2 people for a week away

Another one to muse about a Raid Boat.
- fast & weatherly under sail or oars
- able to race in weather in which the Solo boat would stay in or seek shelter
- dry stowage for two, sleeping space optional ? (Raids tend to stay in on-shore accommodation?)

my 2.2c (incl GST) worth :wink:
cheers
AJ

[Boatmik]

FWIW, I have to offer my opinion of Michael's raid boat: it is too narrow.
My 2-cents.
Clint

Howdy Clint,

You need to go back to the original post to find out what was wanted. My feeling is that this boat would probably not win a RAID - the boats are becoming very specialised. In fact you are right - If I wanted to design a boat to win a RAID it would be much more like the Goat Island Skiff (http://homepage.mac.com/peterhyndman/GIS/) with the changes as you described.

The idea was based on the three PDRs finishing the TEXAS200 (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=752018#post752018) - they were last - but they had such a blast participating. So what sort of boat would take care of the average good sailor - instead of the sailor having to take care of the boat as is the case with the normal RAID model.

The general problem with boats is that they are too cumbersome for one person to handle on land. This includes the Goat which is sensationally light compared to most boats of that size - 130lbs hull plus mast and rigging makes it hard work for one.

A very large part of this problem is bulk - length x beam x depth = weight and "cumbersome-ness" (cumberuity?). The narrow beam also means all ply except the bottom can be a lot thinner.

Most people can handle canoes on the land OK by themselves or drag them if needed. But they are too unstable.

BETH is dead easy in that type of use, but is not in the weight/beam/sail range for just anyone to jump in and sail (unless the wind is quite moderate). A good sailor could have a lot of fun with BETH (http://www.storerboatplans.com/Beth/beth.html) in a RAID where the winds were consistent so there was not much rowing.

Another boat that has just proved the right size for one person with limited experience to handle on an expedition is the PDR, they are quite stable enough in quite a range of conditions. The weak point is that they are too slow - it looks like they can average about 4 knots - which is remarkable for a little boat that is heavily laden but the sheer hours of sailing each day are very punishing.

So this one is the width of the PDR to get the same stability and longer for a higher extra speed and less slowing when faced with waves. The OZ PDR (http://www.pdracer.info) is fine in a chop and may well not have quite the same problem that the three in the TEXAS200 had.

The expedition boat we are discussing here also has more sail to get good performance in light winds, but the mainsail is readily reefed to bring the sail down to quite small.

So - there is some thinking behind this single person boat. I really think that if you go out to the GIS length you need to reduce beam or depth or something to keep it within the realm of a single person to sail and handle.

The beam does make it sub-optimal for rowing - but then ... we are looking at the scores of people who participate rather than the very few who want to go to the edge of things.

In reality we know that RAIDing at the "bleeding edge" (to steal a computer term) is kinda fake. You take any performance catamaran in almost any of those events and have a couple of paddles on hand and you can finish the six day course in a day and a bit. Or if daily tasks - the other boats might take six hours but you will only take and hour and a half - the endurance aspect becomes meaningless. I'd be guessing a performance dinghy would also work well with two paddles.

Don't get me wrong - I love the RAID concept as a participatory one, but at the leading edge it will end up leading to tricky traditional boats as the rowing function cuts away at stability for sailing or real "horses for courses" rather than all round performers - for example the TEXAS200 is predominantly a stronger wind and downwind race.

Maybe it needs to become like the Bathurst car race - where only "production" designs are accepted with a certain number of boat launched already to filter out the "specials".

The other way is for everyone to ignore the "hot rods" and participate for a great experience - which is what this boat is capable of for one person - of course with the advantages I can give it of light weight, efficient rig and foils then it is very much going to punch above its weight. If it was two people the boat would look quite different.

Best wishes

MIK

[keyhavenpotter]

Just to clarify and seperate the two boats being mixed up here:

Post no 16 in this thread has the GIS Raid sketch, a bigger GIS with mizzen, two people boat

Post no 23 has the Solo "Raid41.pdf" sketch for a single handed expedition boat, the main subject of this thread.

S.E.B. would be great for:

Pottering around the salt marshes and the Solent on any day I am free. Her greater length allowing much more ground to be covered than my present Scow.

Club racing on Sundays

Joining in the the local Dinghy Cruising Association meets

Weekend "Raids" a sort of informal competitive dinghy cruising. Friday night Keyhaven to Newtown, Saturday Newtown to Bealieu, Sunday Bealieu back to Keyhaven. The main raids are very expensive and time consuming, these would be self managed low cost mini raids.

Perhaps as confidence grew even a S.E.B. main event a Round the Island Race, with two stopovers on the way round. 1800 yachts have just gone round last weekend, that's 13,000 people.

Brian.

[EJK]

It's been fantastic to see the solo expedition sailboat gel over the last month. It seems that a number of us share the same vision for this boat.

Michael, I have to ask, will you be willing to pull together plans for release?

We launched our OZ PDRacer this last weekend (Michael's plans were outstanding - essentially a home course on boatbuilding). My son was all grins as we sailed around the lake. We will prepare for painting this weekend and make a proper poly lug sail. It's now time to begin building a solo expedition sailboat!

Erik

[JDH]

MIK

Can I add my name to the huge http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/smilies/actions/2thumbsup.gif list of people requesting plans for the Solo.

All the components are now built for my OzPDR - 3D is a bucket of gop away so I will need something else to do.

Cheers
JDH

[Boatmik]

Howdy Erik,

Glad you and the boy are pretty happy about the boat!

Congratulations on the launch. Do you have any pics?

Best wishes
Michael!

[keyhavenpotter]

Please also add my name to the list for the S.E.B. plans if you decide to go ahead. Brian

[Dyf Nurgler]

MIK,

could that device elegantly called grout be used to turn two PDR's into a slightly faster option for a raid boat? It rates a mention on the PDR forum and in a Bolger book but I'm not sure how it attaches or indeed if that is the best way to make it work? Could be the way to go if a PDR is to slow on it's own. How many could you string together anyway?
I'm thinking of getting the PDR plans eventually, no excuse really considering the cost.

Dyf

[Boatmik]

Howdy Dyf,

There are huge loads imposed when you try to join bits of boats - particularly if you cannot organise really effective means to do so.

I've been a little bit involved with a couple of Bolger's 31ft folding schooners and the loads that you have to keep the boat together against are huge.

There were a couple of stretched PDR type boats in the Texas200 - a longer boat with less curve to the bottom will be considerably faster.

So I think that is the best way to go.

Best wishes
MIK

[Dyf Nurgler]

Thanks for the prompt reply Mik. Saves me thinking about it anymore. You could argue that it might be okay for recreational type sailing but your point that a boat should sail well whatever you are using it for is much more valid, not only from a safety point of view but the enjoyment that sailing a boat is supposed to convey.
Since I am just starting on the garboards of my Tirrik I suppose I should post some pictures then in another thread?

[b.o.a.t.]

since i am just starting on the garboards of my tirrik i suppose i should post some pictures then in another thread?


yes !!!!

[b.o.a.t.]

Please also add my name to the list for the S.E.B. plans if you decide to go ahead. Brian


Scrolling through the above posts, I reckon I must be in line for plan set #5...
cheers
AJ

[Boatmik]

Not so fast guys ...

I have started looking at it with the plan of scavenging most of the construction details and methods from the PDRacer plan to keep the workload down.

That way I can just do a few drawings ... offer them cheaply ... those needing the methods can download the PDRacer plan as well.

Centreboard and rudder will be from the PDR ... probably the mast technology.

But so many iterations just trying to get the basic things right.

I am up to version K ... so that is ... um ... version 11.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3150/2713290438_1fc8cd16dc.jpg

A lot of it is just the normal detail stuff ... getting the displacement right ... making sure the sides will fit on the ply sheets (not too big, not too small).

Then the sides were too tall and made the boat more bulky so it would blow around too much when rowing.

Found the sloped transom of the original made the transom wider at the bottom rather than the top.

Tried to fix that by raking the sides the right amount.

Decided that made the building too complicated ... so maybe I've gone back to the vertical transom or maybe I will reverse it so it slopes forward at the top (is it worth the complication).

This made the deck perimeter unfair so it was an ugly shape.

Sigh.

This is not a complaint by the way ... but Par for the course.

I want it to be good

By the way the PDRacer at the bottom left gives an idea of the scale. We are going for that type of stability, but the longer hull will give a lot more speed.

MIK

[b.o.a.t.]

Sounding good Michael.

[Boatmik]

Good for everything but the hair on my head!

:-) Wouldn't change it for quids!

MIK

[keyhavenpotter]

Michael, thanks for the update.

Some links connected with this thread

Two wheels on my wagon.

here is Matt Layden

http://www.watertribe.com/ChallengeViewer/ChallengeViewer.aspx

click on "Chief - Wizard arriving at St. George, portage, tire problems on the road"

This shows Matt arriving after a 90 miles skull and setting off on a 40 miles road walk with Enigma on two small wheels - could be good with a similar arrangment for Solo.

Some of the other "Wizard" clips ( Matt's nickname on Watertribe) are good too. Select the 2006 event to see the list.

Strengthening sailing canoe hull for Florida type coral reefs

Hugh Horton has been developing his sailing canoes for many years. His latest "Bufflehead" is built of 4mm ply with a carbon lower hull exterior and a kevlar interior puncture resistant layer. He uses his boats in a very similar fashion to that planned for Solo.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/27848841@N05/2719440352/

This might be over the top for Solo but might be an approach for relevant areas? Hugh can only obtain 3 ply 4mm, here in the UK Robbins do a really nice 5 ply
4mm Super Elite plywood.

Brian.

[Joost]

Hello Michael,

I don't really dare to ask, but I will anyway. Has version 12 of the Solo been put on paper yet?

Or are you nodding :no:

Regards, Joost

[Boatmik]

Well should you use caution in asking about it.

Version 12 ... has just bitten the dust. Long live version 13.

I can't believe it ... I wanted to use the simplified deck edge construction of the PDR and I haven't left enough width to get the deck out of a ply sheet .. dumb, dumb, dumb.

It means that instead of just bringing the deck down on the gunwale that I will need a deck clamp too. Which means two extra pieces of 19 x 25 the length of the boat.

There might be a way though ... Let me meditate!!!

[keyhavenpotter]

MIK, in one of the Goat threads you mention using ballast for singlehanded sailing and reducing the amount as confidence grows. I think there was a mention of Solo possibly using water ballast.

I guess the displacement of Solo will include the boat, the sailor and a fair allowance for expedition kit, food and water for drinking. So I was wondering, for day sailing this would leave the possibilty of putting water containers under the floor perhaps as ballast for windy day sailing or for newer sailors to build their confidence. Could be a really popular feature for builders.

Water ballast seems to work for the Swallow boats Bayraider and I have realised that a larger proportion of members of the UK Home Boat Builders Group are less experienced sailors than are very experienced sailors.

Here are a number of YouTube vdeos of Swallows tests with and without ballast.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cL6xmOGCCOo

http://www.swallowboats.co.uk/content/view/127/

We have had really windy summers now for the last two years. Racing again yesterday in 18 knots gusting 20 knots. Great racing, terrific fun but exhausting and so I was thinking that something to calm the boat down for longer distance sailing would be pretty good.

Brian

[Boatmik]

Ok ... share with you ....


There is something you could do to really help me though. I have planned to meet up with Chris, who is building Raid41 this winter for me, next weekend (Sept 6th and 7th) to go over ideas and plans etc. He lives at the other end of the country to me, so not easy to meet up. There is a Home Boatbuilders Meet in the Cotswolds where we plan to sort and finalise build plans for Raid41.

Would it be possible to let us have anything - obviously marked up not for building with or cutting any materials. Anything showing ply layout would help a lot to create a basic budget. With your experience of other designs, your estimate of the costs to build hull, foils and spars would help us loads. I am paying for all materials, Chris wants to build the boat. Then I am rigging her and also I really want to sew the sails over the winter so any programmes for lug sail design or panel latouts later on would be helpfull.

I guess I am saying anything we can just have in front of us to talk over the build would be great. We both really want to create this super little raid boat with a really tight budget to show every body at the Beale Show next year just what can be achieved.

All the best, Brian

I think to say you have my support is a huge understatement!!!

Thanks for understanding that final information is some way away yet.

I do have some panel layouts already even though I don't have the final panel shapes. And I can give you list of sizes for most of the timber from various sources. You might have to guess the lengths (trick .. they are either 16 or less than 4ft long!)

Mast, centreboard and rudder box is all off the PDR. Mainsail is off Beth, mizzen is so simple it is a joke.

Structure is PDR mostly.

So priority for me this week is to cut and paste it all together for you.

OK

MIK

[EJK]

MIK,

It's great to hear that you are on the home stretch.

John H. Wright posted a great article at http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/08/howto/pdx/index.htm following his experience with his PDRacer in the Texas200:

John noted that a Texas 200 boat should have, at least, these following qualities:

Rugged enough to survive wind and rough water for five days.
The sail plan to allow for high wind and also have enough size for the possible light wind.
Ample dry storage for supplies.
Able to sail in shallow water but also sail close to the wind for the occasional beat into the wind.
Adequate space for sleeping in the boat as an alternative to tent camping.
Protection from mosquitoes and rain.
Shade while sailing….and not.
Self bailing or a large bucket for quick de watering and a sponge to keep it dry.
Inherent floatation adequate for self rescuing in rough water.
Easy (proven) way of getting “you” back in the boat.
A working and proper pair of oars.
A proper anchor with at least 50’ of (preferably) nylon rode (rope) attached securely to the boat.
The last but not least important, a COMFORTABLE seat.

He summarizes this by noting that the above, is, a lot to ask of an 8’ foot boat.

What is not on the list is sufficient speed for safety, a limitation of an 8' foot boat that simply cannot be overcome. The Raid41 will pull all these pieces together in a boat that will allow you to avoid trouble and arrive in time to enjoy the cold beers.

Thanks for your continuing efforts.

EJK

[keyhavenpotter]

Thanks MIK and thanks EJK for starting this thread!

Chris has just confirmed due to the logistics of obtaining marine plywood so far north (he lives at the end of the known world - though it is very nice there ) that we will be ordering ply a couple of days after our Cotswold meeting. I am getting excited.

EJK - have a look at the Lug Rig Heaven thread and my rigging pics show a neat system of using an adjustable stirrup to climb back on board. I think with that all the listed requirements are covered by Raid41.

Brian.

[b.o.a.t.]

[back in May 2008]
Thanks MIK. Very nice. Very desirable. Very quick.
Inexperienced with spar making - could the spars be put through a thicknesser to square them, again with wedges to taper them, then a router to radius the edges. 100 times better than trying to make round spars if it would work.

Brian

G'day Brian
have just knocked up some spars for my poor beknighted Teal's new sail.
Dead easy - see MIK's free paddle plans for blow-by-blow instructions.
Shape square, mark & plane required taper/s.
Use spar gauge to mark accurately for 8-siding with hand plane.
Use spar gauge or Mk.1 eyeball to 16-side with hand-plane.
Round off with sand-paper.

The hardest bit (after getting motivated enough to make a start on them) was
ripping two clear lengths out of the knotty old rafter I used as stock. In the end
I had to scarf the yard from two shorter bits. That, & varnishing them - I have no
aptitude for painting whatsoever, (and regularly inform the wife of this !! :U )

Looking forward to getting my mitts on a set of SEB plans... (2009 project)

cheers
Alan J

[b.o.a.t.]

Just keeping the thread near the top of the heap...
You will let us know when the plans are ready, won't you MIK ?
Have 'pox & filler. Just need plywood & time...
cheers
AJ

[Clarkey]

Yep, good to see this thread rise to the top again. I think you can add me to the list of buyers for the plans. Is the idea that you buy the Oz PD plans for construction details and then an additional drawing pack for the RAID41 panel shapes?

Chris

[Boatmik]

I think an experienced builder would not need the PDR plans at all ... it will be a lot more detailed than a set of panel shapes. But it won't be a whole Storer Plans step by step, follow every detail, type plan.

And Chris, the chap who is building the first boat (starting the 1st of November (gulp) does tend to do collect photos on the way through.

Brian ... can you put a link here to Chris' his website?

MIK

[EJK]

Glad to hear the Raid41 still has legs. I'm very hopeful that you will have plans released soon. I am really looking forward to a Spring launch (Winter comes way to early and stays way to late in Minnesota).

Erik

[dogfuel]

Besides the clear aesthetic benefit, what makes a daggerboard more desirable than leeboard(s) on a boat like this? Is there a performance advantage?

Just curious with the concerns about space early in the thread why leeboard(s) are not part of this.

Thanks - sorry for the (possibly) stupid question

[Boatmik]

On the contrary Dogfuel ... this is a truly GREAT question. I will do a comprehensive answer as to why in a little while.

My original reason is that I am pretty sure leeboards don't perform as well as centreboards by some margin unless set up to be a bit complicated in use.

The reason I can do a comprehensive answer is because the worldwide PDRacer fleet has been hugely experimental with rigs and foils ... and I have been a careful observer of this wonderful mayhem.

[keyhavenpotter]

MIK, here is the link to the website

please everyone have a look through the different builds, (under pages),

Stangarra is a new Oughtred canoe
Scotch Mist a MacGregor Sailing canoe
Bumble of Lochdubh, a Humble Bee

and Candyfloss is a CLC Wood Duck just in build for a neighbour.

Chris will blog the whole build, warts and all, so will provide a terrific build resource for all of us.

http://strathkanchris.wordpress.com/

Brian

[Boatmik]

Besides the clear aesthetic benefit, what makes a daggerboard more desirable than leeboard(s) on a boat like this? Is there a performance advantage?

Just curious with the concerns about space early in the thread why leeboard(s) are not part of this.

Thanks - sorry for the (possibly) stupid question

OK ... I will start with my reasoned prejudice and then move onto some interesting evidence from the PDRacer experimentation in the USA. Finally a positive approach to leeboards and this boat.

My Prejudiced Viewpoint about leeboards
First ... there have been a few experiments to make a leeboarded/bilgboarded raceboat in yacht sizings. Some of them have had significant budget including a couple of different attempts in the heyday of the IOR rule which penalised stability quite strongly ... so having a deep and heavy keel was not the preferred way for ANY boat.

So even against other lightly ballasted boats ... the highly optimised bilge board boat was not terribly successful despite having enough crew to pull up the windward board.

We now see a number of the canting keel yachts using leeboard/canards ... this is a bit of a special case as these boats are so powerful and so fast that they can generate a lot of lift from their canted leeboard/canard.

Not a normal leeboard and not a normal boat ... after all the bigger ones have engines to swing the main keel from side to side ... how many miles per gallon to Hobart boys?

ok ..

The second thing in the reasoned prejudice line is that in general one foil is much more efficient than two. There is always a loss at the tip - two keels ... then two lots of losses ... which is why catamarans will generally sail with one pulled up.

For one person ... this is too much work I think.

FOR EFFICIENCY ... ONE LEEBOARD NEEDS TO BE PULLED UP.

So the third thing ... the guy who has designed more leeboard boats than anyone else, Phil Bolger says "before anyone asks, yes they do have to be that big, and especially that wide and, yes, they do collect pot warp etc"

So factor in that both of them have to be almost the same size as the centreboard they are replacing. This can be moderated in boats that heel by canting the leeboards out at an angle so they are perpendicular when heeled ... but most small boats like this are better at very moderate amounts of heel.

AREA OF TWO LEEBOARDS WILL ALWAYS BE GREATER THAN A SINGLE CENTREBOARD FOR THE SAME EFFECT

The other thing is that surface piercing foils (leeboards on the outside of the hull or a rudder off the transom) are in theory and in measurement much less efficient than a foil that goes through the hull.

LEEBOARDS SHOULD BE INSIDE THE HULL RATHER THAN MOUNTED OUTSIDE

Fourth thing ... this is really argued prejudice on my part ... I don't have any solid evidence the flow of water around a chine has a tendency to become quite turbulent quite easily. Having a leeboard in this turbulent flow is going to cause more drag for the hull and less efficiency for the leeboard itself

REPEAT OF PREVIOUS POINT - a good argument for bringing a leeboard inside the hull. A number of the US PDRacers have done just this .. and a couple using OZ PDR plans have moved the centrecase over so it is under the inside edge of the deck about 7inches inside the hull side. If someone wants to do this on the RAID/EXPEDITION41 then they can try of course. I think it will be OK .. but not as good as the centreboard.

Puddleduck experiments with unbalancing
Interesting ... something from the puddleduck world.

One of the PDRACERS used a biplane rig (attached pic below) it was build by Dave Gray of Polysail fame. If you are after good polytarp for a PDRacer sail in the Americas .. he is the guy to contact.

The PDRacer rules allow a wide range of rig configurations ... there are everything from this biplane to a brigantine.

The most common rigs however have been sprit and lugs as well as a few sloops.

The biplane rig is quite a good performer upwind with careful sail trimming .... very effective downwind as in the pic below ... but cross wind is somewhat slow because of the blanketing.

The boat has two rigs and two leeboards.

Now when Dave reefs ... he simply leaves one of the masts and sails on the shore.

If he sails with one rig only and the leeboard on the same side of the boat then it sails very nicely.

But if he sails with the rig on one side and the leeboard on the other then it won't sail effectively at all. If he can get it going at all it has big weather helm on one tack and big lee helm on the other.

So ... if you design a boat with an offcentre mast and a leeboard .. take them over to the same side of the hull.

So why does this strange balance problem occur? One of the important things with the design of any boat is to do a drawing from the side of the hull/keel/centreoboard/leeboard (an elevation) working out the centre of the sail area and put that over the centre of the hull. With shallow, almost fore and aft symmetrical boats like the PDRacer and most dinghies you can almost ignore the hull and just use the centreboard position.

BUT this is very much a two dimensional solution. It works ok if the mast and the centreboard are on the same line as the system is symmetrical. But the actual situation is not 2D it is 3D.

That is, the force from the sail is not only lateral .. but slightly forward as well ( when going upwind) that is why the boat moves forward so it is a good thing. The centreboard, leeboard or keel deals with the sideforce which leaves the slight forward force as the only thing that is unbalanced so the boat moves forward.

This means that when the sail is full the centreboard or leeboard needs to be somewhere along the line of action of the sail.

When the sail and mast are on the centreline of the boat ... they have very little lateral separation so the centres line up fairly closely. This is true for a mast and leeboard that along a line parallel with the boat centreline.

BUT, this also means that if the leeboard is on the lee side it needs to be slightly forward ... or if the boat is wide .. a long way forward. And if it is on the windward side it needs to be an equal distance back.

This means a single leeboard boat will always be a bit out of balance on each tack. With the rudder producing drag as it resists the extra weather helm on one tack and the extra lee helm on the other.

It appears that if the mast is on the centreline and the leeboard is on the side of the boat (ie they have a 2ft lateral seperation) then the rudder can cope OK and the boat will be fine. But double it to 4ft and the rudder doesn't have enough oomph to cope adequately.

What some design books say about catamaran/multihull centreboards
NOW .. an interesting thing ... a number of design textbooks claim that multihulls with centreboards in the outer hulls have to have them quite a long way forward relative to the sail compared to a monohull because of the drag of the leeward hull tending to make the boat bear away.

Maybe ... but it is clear a secondary reason ... or maybe the primary reason is that the catamaran centreboard has to be forward to be positioned on the line of action of the sail centre.

Interesting how a little humble boat like the PDR can be quite informative in a very concrete way about some of the features of much more flash boats.

What Bolger says about asymmetry
Bolger ... who I regard as a truly brilliant designer does say that boats don't seem to mind asymmetry in mast and foil position. However the PDRacer experiments show that there are limits. I would suggest that Bolger tends to design relatively slender boats so the lateral offset is not too large and also when a boat has both leeboard and mast offset he takes them over to the same side. I think most designers would tend to do this fairly instinctively.

If you want a leeboard on the RAID41
But back to the Expedition/RAID41 ... when Brian said he would build the first one he said he would prefer a swinging centreboard. I suggested keeping it as a dagger so it won't ruin the cockpit for sleeping and the simplicity of building. I think he had his doubts but he went with the simplicity angle.

As far as leeboards go ... if someone wants to try them .... they are welcome to try but if the boat has shortcomings .. they will also know who to blame.

But guidelines would be .... think about keeping the leeboard/s inboard of the side of the boat just under the side deck edge. Incidentally the ketch/yawl rig will be more tolerant of the slight changes of balance from tack to tack compared to anything else.

Maybe that is another reason Bolger's offcentredness works ok.

Best wishes
Michael Storer

[dogfuel]

Thanks - makes sense even to me. The only boat I've cobbled together was an outrigger sailing canoe (based generally on Gary D's Wa'apa). The (single) leeboard and the mast step/foot were on 18" t-track setups with toilet bolts so I could move them and try different windsurfer and dinghy rigs. I only tried one before someone stole the boat OFF MY CAR in the city (parked near a large university so I suspect a prank).

I never had the opportunity to fully test and tune the setup or learn much about the mechanics and dynamics of a leeboard but assume this would not have been a fair assessment as the mail hull was only 20" wide so, even outside the hull, the offset was small. Eventually I'll build another.

I purchased the plans and was going to build a GIS, but the RAID41, while not as elegant, is a better fit with my abilities and needs.

Thanks again,
j

[keyhavenpotter]

Hi MIK

there is currently some early discussion of RAID41 on the yahoo open boats group and the subject of dagger board / centreboard has come up again. The simplicity and clean cockpit is sort of winning at the moment.

There was a possibility of allowing for the builder to fit a centreboard if it was really wanted. Is that still an option - I did not want to say it was on the yahoo site if it would compromise the design in its latest form.

Or alternatively it could be something drawn up for a later version I guess.

Brian

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/openboat/messages?o=1

think you have to join to see the messages though.

[Clarkey]

Yes, I have been on the Openboat boat group too. Having mused thoroughly over the daggerboard I am now firmly of the opinion that it is the best choice - I think this boat needs to be kept absolutely as light as possible. I really like the idea of such a potentially capable boat that can be cartopped.

With this in mind I will ask the question I just put up on the other group - should have asked it here anyway!

"Thinking about cartopping - I assume that the spars will be shorter than the
boat? If so will they have to be lashed on top or do you think there will be scope for poking them through an inspection hatch and keeping them actually within the hull?"

I am really looking forward to the build blog! Not as much as I am the sailing one though!

Regards,

Chris

[b.o.a.t.]

REPEAT OF PREVIOUS POINT - a good argument for bringing a leeboard inside the hull. A number of the US PDRacers have done just this .. and a couple using OZ PDR plans have moved the centrecase over so it is under the inside edge of the deck about 7inches inside the hull side. If someone wants to do this on the RAID/EXPEDITION41 then they can try of course. I think it will be OK .. but not as good as the centreboard.

Best wishes
Michael Storer


G'day Michael
Given the amount of water which is NOT in the lower lakes at the moment, it might be
worth the performance penalty of two shorter inboard leeboards to open up more
sailable water. This is, after all, a boat for poking around & exploring in, not just gobbling
up the miles ! Same applies to the channels north of the Port River, & probably
a host of other places around the world.
Depending upon how the centreboard case arranged at the moment, it might also
allow a slightly longer sleeping space for those of us who are 6'2"" or taller ?

Do you have any general arrangement sketches you can put on-line yet ?
cheers
AJ

[Boatmik]

Howdy ... I probably won't be drawing up a swinging centreboard version.

Here we talk about centreboards as a generic term which break down into
Daggerboards or Dagger Centreboards
Swinging Centreboards

Seems to me a Centre board is a board in the centre and should be contrasted with a lee board that is not.

OK ... maybe a nice point.

BUT the structure will allow for a swinging board to be fitted on the centreline quite easily - I will allow for it so people can fit one if they want. It won't be a part of the initial plans. At least the swinging board makes a lot more sense for this boat than with the PDRacer - no space because the centreboard is already a long way back and long so a case would almost go to the transom, or GIS - where it would divide up the already small space in the main working area of the boat (the mid seat and just behind it)

BACK to the Expedition/RAID

One problem is that the rowing function forces the self draining floor to be quite low in the boat. I have angled if aft a little to self drain through the transom (and through the centrecase of course) but the transom will be solid ply to stop water coming in (with some scuppers). I am a little worried that if the centreboard slot swings too far back then water might come in a bit. But some windsurfers and racing dinghies use sailcloth covers over the tops of their swinging centreboards.

We will see ... the only option is to increase the freeboard .. but that increases weight and makes the boat harder for one person to manage in shallows or on land and will make it blow round while rowing.

We will see.

Best wishes
Michael
(The boat has been drawn with a daggerboard, but the subcockpit structure has been designed to deal with a swinging centreboard with some changes. Still ruins the cockpit in my opinion and may splash water ... but this can be prevented by a sock that covers the board and slot fastened down to cockpit floor. Houndtooth Check, anyone?)

[Boatmik]

Yes, I have been on the Openboat boat group too. Having mused thoroughly over the daggerboard I am now firmly of the opinion that it is the best choice - I think this boat needs to be kept absolutely as light as possible. I really like the idea of such a potentially capable boat that can be cartopped.

With this in mind I will ask the question I just put up on the other group - should have asked it here anyway!

"Thinking about cartopping - I assume that the spars will be shorter than the
boat? If so will they have to be lashed on top or do you think there will be scope for poking them through an inspection hatch and keeping them actually within the hull?"

Regards,
Chris

Excellent point Clarkey. Don't know if it will be quite feasible but I will keep it in mind over the next week. The front end is OK - a hole needs to go there anyhow ... the back end where the stick needs to be fed in might be a bit tricky with the transom and the mizzen mast partner

Will see
MIK

[keyhavenpotter]

The Caledonia Raid has a long section of canal where sailing is not allowed, so good rig stowage when rowing a Raid section might be really helpful.

Here are some pics from Caledonia 2008 to give a flavour

http://albums.phanfare.com/2963156/2085020_2235919#imageID=28585648

Brian

[Clarkey]

Yes, it would be nice to be able to strike the rig and stow it for a long row, especially against a strong headwind. That might prove mighty tricky though, the mainmast would have to stow pretty much on the centerline.

What will happen at the transom? Presumably there will need to be some holes or transom flaps in it so that the boat can self-drain quickly enough? Maybe the spars could be poked through them in order to wiggle them into place?

Even though I would like to row standing up most of the time (blah blah, drone, venetian rowing - my pet subject) I would prefer to sit down and pull in the usual way in adverse conditions. What is proposed for a rowing seat? I would REALLY like to avoid a fixed thwart , there wouldn't be much space under it and it would ruin the boat for sleeping. I can envisage a small seat about 150mm off the cockpit floor attached to a plug which drops into the daggerboard slot and stabilised with a couple of short legs or side-pieces. Maybe this could be dropped into place over the stowed spars?

Chris

[keyhavenpotter]

Chris, could you tell us more about how the standing up rowing might work on RAID41. I will probably only row away from the beach when setting off early on the tide when Keyhaven is very shallow and anywhere there is some water there are moorings, so rowing out standing up, facing where I am going and not hitting moored boats would be a good alternative. Brian

[Clarkey]

Hi Brian,

If you just want to get off the beach into clear water then you don't need anything too special, just a pair of oars and probably a set of extended height rowlocks. Relatively short oars should be fine - you don't really want overlap on the handles when threading your way through boats. I will try and google for some images of Maine 'peapods' which were often rowed like this for short distances.

I remember an old edition of 'Watercraft' which had a picture of a German raid boat. The crew sat forward and rowed in the conventional way while the helm stood aft and rowed facing forward. They said that this worked really well because they could chat to each to each other and the crew could concentrate on providing power knowing that the helm could see where they were going. As I recall the rowlocks for the helm were about 20cm taller than those of the crew but this would obviously depend on the boat.

Standing is no problem in relatively calm conditions but with a flat bottomed boat the motion can be really quick in disturbed chop - hence my desire for a sitting down option too.

The two Venetian styles are a bit more involved and are really aimed at rowing long distances or in narrow canals - you don't really want to bother with crossed oars held in the 'wrong' hands when you are trying to weave between other boats!

Hope this helps,

Chris

[keyhavenpotter]

Something like these, but hopefully at a more affordable price , the picture gives the idea

http://www.duck-trap.com/hardware.html

Brian

[Clarkey]

Yes, those are exactly what I had in mind!

My only concern would be the narrow beam of RAID41 which may make the gearing a bit heavy. I think for just getting the boat off the beach I would go for really short oars and accept that rowing any distance would be a chore. If you wanted I guess you could mount the rowlocks off the vertical and splay them out. That would let you use longer blades but would make coming alongside other boats, walls etc. a bit of a pain.

I can't wait to see how this boat looks in the flesh!

Chris

[Clarkey]

Blimey! You are right, I just saw the price!

Gondolas have intricately carved hardwood rowlocks ('forcole') that cost a small fortune but more modest boats often make do with a short plank stuck vertically through a slot in the sidedeck. A 'U' is cut in the top to take the oar and reinforced to stop the wood splitting. I guess the modern approach would be to wrap some glass tape around the base of the 'U' and epoxy it in place. The plank would go down to a socket on the chine log and is usually held in place by a wooden wedge or two. Job done, just pull them out for sailing.

Chris

[Boatmik]

Howdy ...

look how the shoulders are in line with the oar handle in this gun racing team.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3031/2637876251_1325c03c31.jpg

[sailman58]

Another solution would be to mount an oarlock on the transom and scull over the stern.

Ron

[JDH]

What about removing the centre board foil and pluging in a Hobie Drive into the same slot with a custom fitting arrangment.http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/smilies/actions/doh.gif

[sailman58]

JDH,

The Hobie Mirage drive uses an opening that is both wider and shorter than a daggerboard. Also, a Mirage drive costs around $500 here in the USA and I am sure that you could get a good set of oars for less or make them for a great deal less.

Ron

[Clarkey]

The amazing thing about these boats in MIK's post 89 (it is a Caorlina) is that the working crew was 2, rowing and sometimes sailing about 15 tons of stone from Istria to Venice. They are lovely to row with 6 and can carry a great deal of picnic! I have done a couple of day trips in one, covering about 25-30km is quite relaxed and pleasant. Would be tricky to find space for the 4m oars on RAID41 though!

What I had in mind originally for 'my' RAID41 was the style exhibited by the bloke at the bottom of the page in this link:

http://www.campiello-venise.com/dossier/vogaveneta.htm

For short stretches though you could get away with short, non overlapping oars - 7' or maybe even 6'. I like sculling over the stern but I think you get more control with two blades.

Chris




Howdy ...

look how the shoulders are in line with the oar handle in this gun racing team.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3031/2637876251_1325c03c31.jpg

[Portercable]

Hi Micheal,

Just had a quick read of you message and thought you might like to have a look at a Hrtley Ts 16. which by all reports is easy toi build and a lot of fun for the hole family.
it sleeps 4 overnight ,but may be a bit hard to row.:U:2tsup:

[Boatmik]

Howdy Portercable and WELCOME!!!

Have a huge respect for the Hartley ... but doesn't answer the question.

Also compared to the types of boats we are talking about here it is much harder to build and the rig is expensive.

It has BRILLIANT performance if sailed hard ... but it is way too much boat for this requirement ... for one person to handle easily. The boat that we are talking about might well be roofrackable.

There is a great thread on this forum about the Hartley ... have you seen it?
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=80599

Best wishes
Michael

[Boatmik]

Hobie Mirage drives ...

I read on the net a report (duckworks?) about a hobie drive fitted to a Mill Creek canoe which has a slightly veed bottom. The drive's "sails" would slap the bottom of the boat.

The flat of the Raid boat bottom might make this even more of a problem.

I am interested in the ease and effectiveness of this drive and the $500 doesn't really seem that steep for a pretty groovy mechanism.

The website for a drive shows some videos of it towing a regular kayak backwards. Francis Herreshoff has the story of a young bow swimming and towing his brother backwards in a rowboat. But the rowboat we know is waaaay more efficient than a swimmer.

Are there any videos showing a Hobie drive vs a real rowboat or a real kayak in a decent length race? Be interesting to see! I think it would do pretty well at cruising type speeds for less experienced paddlers/rowers and may be adaptable to types of boats where it is hard to fit oars or use paddles effectively, such as ones with wide side decks or coamings (Welsford Whaler comes to mind).

But head to head ... I suspect the lack of evidence to the contrary indicates the current version doesn't have the legs of a proper rowboat or kayak. I would be excited to be found to be wrong!!!

MIK

[JDH]

"I read on the net a report (duckworks?) about a hobie drive fitted to a Mill Creek canoe which has a slightly veed bottom. The drive's "sails" would slap the bottom of the boat."

This sometimes happens even with Hobie craft, depends on how hard you are pushing things.

"The flat of the Raid boat bottom might make this even more of a problem."

I presently use an i12 Hobie inflatable, which has a virtually flat bottom so I think that would not be a real problem on the RAID 41. I find I can use the drive for long periods of time and only rarely use the paddle. In low/light wind conditions the drive is great for "motoring" through tacks. The drive creates very little noise and no splash so if wonderful for watching wildlife.

"I am interested in the ease and effectiveness of this drive and the $500 doesn't really seem that steep for a pretty groovy mechanism."

As Ron says the drive needs a slot wider and shorter than the dagger board but with the right structure as part of the proposed false floor, you could consider a cassette for board or drive alternatively. Or could there be provision for a drive behind the dagger board ?

"The website for a drive shows some videos of it towing a regular kayak backwards. Francis Herreshoff has the story of a young boy swimming and towing his brother backwards in a rowboat. But the rowboat we know is waaaay more efficient than a swimmer."

This would be an interesting test to try - two RAID's one with drive and one with oars !

"Are there any videos showing a Hobie drive vs a real rowboat or a real kayak in a decent length race? Be interesting to see! I think it would do pretty well at cruising type speeds for less experienced paddlers/rowers and may be adaptable to types of boats where it is hard to fit oars or use paddles effectively, such as ones with wide side decks or coamings (Welsford Whaler comes to mind)."

There is only the promo video on the Hobie site that I know of.

"But head to head ... I suspect the lack of evidence to the contrary indicates the current version doesn't have the legs of a proper rowboat or kayak. I would be excited to be found to be wrong!!!"

I use the turbo fins on my drive, now as for the legs, well that is up to the sixty plus year old motor !! Give me a Mirage drive any day over a paddle - have not rowed a decent row boat for many years, oars may still have the edge, until proven otherwise.

Just need to build me a RAID 41 and try it out.:;

JDH

[keyhavenpotter]

Will we ever be so organised?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3052/2969236800_46afbeab22.jpg?v=0

managed it!

Brian

[sailman58]

MIK,

I have used mirage drives in two different Hobie kayaks and also in a Hobie Adventure Island trimaran. In the kayaks the drive would take me further faster and with less effort than the paddle. I always carried the paddle just in case I had a drive failure and almost needed it the time I bent the rod that supports the fin by running aground on an oyster rock.
On the AI there is not enough room to swing a double paddle, so I use a short single paddle where it is either impossible or impractical to use the drive or the sail. I sometimes wonder how much the AI would sail without the added drag of the drive.

Ron

[sailman58]

Brian,

Where is that picture from? I think I recognize the boat. It looks like the Caledonia Yawl that has been to our Mid Atlantic Small Craft Festival for the last several years. I don't recall ever having seen it with that cockpit tent though. It looks like a conventional tent with the bottom cut out and adapted as a cockpit, tent with the fly pitched separately for greater separation.

Ron