Fuel Cell for hydrogen

[MICKYG]

Hi all

Any members here into fuel cell technology. It appears you can run a car on the hydrogen gas produced off a cannister full of water. I have done some reading on the matter and it has my curiosity thus far.

Regards Mike

[snowyskiesau]

The problem is that the energy required to separate the hydrogen from the water takes more energy than the hydrogen produces to run the car!

[old_picker]

i would have thought that hydrogen would be supplied as a "hydrogen cell" the electrolysyis process to liberate the hydrogen would need to be undertaken in a large plant situation dedicated to hydrogen fuel cell production

the end user simply replacing spent cells at a swapover centre much like the LP gas system used in servos - this is only speculation and any one wanting to point out the flaws in the idea are invited to do so

my question is "can a petrol / gas burning engine run on hydrogen?

in ww11 all sorts of things were used to fuel cars on
i guess we are about to see some alternatives

there are already people around town refining used fish'n'chip oil for use in deisel burning engines.

the only draw back is the smell of stale dim sims in the exhaust fumes :D

[echnidna]

There is an ebook on my website (http://ebooks.ausmade.com.au/Run-your-car-on-water.html) about this.
I make it very clear that I regard it as an experimenters ebook

[wattlewemake]

A bloke on my shift at work has got a toyota hilux ute running hydrogen. It is not the be all and end all at the moment as he is still setting it up.

He is using it as an additive to petrol and is getting somewhere around 20 ~ 30 percent better fuel economy ( equivalent to running a vehicle on petrol / lpg). From what I understand, you can either run it on a solution of water/vinegar or water/baking soda.

The actual unit and piping is not hard to build. The power supply to create the ho gas (hydrogen/oxygen) is a bit more complex. It needs to be able pulsewidth modulated and able to handle around 35 amps on starting the water solution to create the ho gas. (Any electronics type people that would have a circuit for a pulse width modulator able to handle that sort of amps laying around please let me know)

From talking to the bloke about running it solely on hydrogen(except from a start on petrol) you can do it but it costs a fair bit to get the engine set up. Essentially a ground up build with high end components such as ceramic coated pistons and liners and the like. He said around 10 grand to get it ready to run.

On the safety side, you are only producing gas as required so in the event of an accident I couldnt see a problem as long as you turned off the system. In that respect, I think it would be safer than having a lpg tank or the like on your vehicle. How an insurer would look at it I have no idea let alone a transport department. I think they would most likely have a pink fit if they found such a vehicle on the road. The government would be very against it as they are not getting a cut on the excise.

It is an interesting exercise in the least, even just watching the trials and tribulations of getting the system to be able run was good fun with a few spectacular mistakes on the way.

My current vehicle wouldnt be viable to do the conversion but in the future.... well you never know.

Hopefully this may of been of interest to someone.

Shane.

[m2c1Iw]

)
Hopefully this may of been of interest to someone.


Indeed yes:2tsup:, any chance of some pics of the set up. Are you talking 35 amps @ 12V for power?

Mike

[old_picker]

so it will wreck a normal engine?
why?
does it run hotter? colder? more compression?
no lube from the H ?

[wattlewemake]

It needs 35 amps @ 12 volts to get the solution to start splitting into the gas components. It drops off quite quickly when it starts to run. It was only pulling 4 amps when I saw it running. The solution strength has a bit to do with the current draw as well iirc.

As to why it needs all the heavy duty gear for the full gas set up I must admit I cant remember. I would of been told but I have had a few drinks tonight and I simply cant remember. Sorry. I think it might be a very dry and corrosive setup. Dont take that as gospel though.:B

Shane.

[ian]

Hi all

Any members here into fuel cell technology. It appears you can run a car on the hydrogen gas produced off a cannister full of water. I have done some reading on the matter and it has my curiosity thus far.

Regards MikeMike

to get the hydrogen, you would pass an electric current through water,
when you burn the hydrogen, or run it through a fuel cell, you get back an amount of energy equivalent to that used to produce the hydrogen LESS your losses principally waste heat.

to run a car off a canister of water would be a fun experiment but in net terms would use more energy than running the car from a primary fuel source like petrol or diesel.

burn fuel to run engine to make electricity (loose some energy as waste heat),
use the electricity to make hydrogen,
burn the hydrogen in the engine (loose some more energy as waste heat)
net result more waste heat than if you'd burnt the fuel for the direct tractive effort
therefore you don't get as far as you might have for the same tank of petrol



ian

[Buzza]

Stan Meyer, you can all read up on this bloke, for starters. I think the main reason we do not use this fuel already, is that it causes even worse polution in the form of "Heavy Water" or some such. Stan Meyer is no longer with us unfortunately.

[barnsey]

I've seen plans for doing this and they are not exceptionally complicated. The theory seems OK and the outcome I guess is to be examined.

I have the plans including the mods for electronic fuel injection just haven't gone down the path yet.

Anyone else tried?

Jamie

[damian]

Ian is correct.

However I have read recently about methods to crack water that are less energy intensive, but I don't know the details. A Japanese research project had a bit of a breakthrough recently. I know BMW sank a tone of money into onboard storage in the early 90's and didn't get far. Honeycomb hydrides as I recall.

I'm sorry I don't subscribe to the conspiracy theories. They are usually perpetuated by people who can't understand why the world doesn't follow their lead...I've been hearing these stories for 25 years at least.

By the way hydrogen is dangerous. It doesn't burn particularly hot but it does burn readily, and explodes really well :) Just take a bit of care...

[ian]

By the way hydrogen is dangerous. It doesn't burn particularly hot but it does burn readily, and explodes really well :) Just take a bit of care...and the really fun bit ...

when hydrogen burns you can't see the flame — it's colourless
the usual test for burning hydrogen is to poke a straw broom into where you think the flame is and see if the straw catches alight


ian

[Buzza]

WOW, thanks Ian! SWMBO will be really interested in a hydrogen powered broom. :wink:

Of course, she doesn't know who Buzza is really, so hopefully I'm safe. :-

[DavidG]

By the way hydrogen is dangerous. It doesn't burn particularly hot but it does burn readily, and explodes really well :) Just take a bit of care...
Actually Hydrogen is safer than LPG.

LPG is heavier than air and makes an explosive flame spreading at ground level.
Hydrogen, being lighter than air tends to go up and burn above you.

[damian]

And LPG is in many ways safer than diesel which burns hotter. It's all relative.

The point I was making is hydrogen can toast you nicely to a dark shade of brown, so be careful.

[Andy Mac]

Bit of a hijack, we used to produce small amounts of hydrogen when I was a kid. In WA where there were NO fireworks we made our own fun...gunpowder and hydrogen too:oo:. Mix up a strong caustic solution in a bottle, drop in chunks of scrap aluminium which would bubble fiercely (hydrogen gas) and then trap it in a balloon over the neck. Needless to say, an explosive balloon!

Cheers,

[MICKYG]

Thanks to you all for the comments and replies. I have done quite a bit of reading about this particular matter. The comments regarding Voltage and Current seemed to have been addressed by the use of dc which is pulsed and has been reduced to about 1.5 to 2 amps which is very sustainable. A circuit is available for the home brewer. There are all sorts of claims regarding increased mileage return but it appears that 15 to 20 percent is attainable.

There is quite a bit of BS being put out by people selling kits etc in the States that you have to sift through, but never the less interesting.

Mr Meyer is a real ground breaker with the available technology but has unfortunately has met with an untimely death. One of the concerns I have is that not once have I encountered the warning regarding Hexavalent Chromium cr6 which is a known carcinogen to mankind. (USA HINKLEY disaster)

The experimenters are all playing with Stainless Steel by welding, Cutting, Sanding, and then eventually dissolving it by the nature of how it produces Hydrogen Gas to be fed into an engine and into into the atmosphere through an exhaust pipe and saving a few bucks on fuel. If one could imagine thousands of vehicles using road ways using this type of fuel with associated chemical danger to the other users would certainly thin the population if it is as the warnings suggest.

Think I will keep reading for a while to come before diving in. There are several points where you can fill up with hydrogen which has been produced but it apparently is stored in your system at about 3,000 PSI in a tank, you would never have to worry about making a claim on your insurer if you had an accident.

Regards Mike

( the jury is still out on the above)