DIY Furniture: Dowelmax or Festool Domino?

[US-Oz]

Hi guys,

I'm trying to decide between a Domino and a Dowelmax (http://www.dowelmax.com). The advantages of the Dowelmax are:
Low price compared to Domino
Durability (the Dowelmax is a one-off lifetime buy, whereas the Domino will need new brushes and bearings in a few years)
Noise (Dowelmax is wonderfully quiet)
Non-proprietary consumables (Dowelmax works with ordinary dowels, Domino requires special Festool biscuits)
Dowelmax makes stronger joints (see their stress tests at dowelmax.com )The only advantage the Domino has is speed, as would perhaps be required in a commercial production shop. That's not me.

What say you guys? :)

http://www.dowelmax.com/images/dowelmax-large.jpg (http://www.dowelmax.com/)

http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/uploadedImages/Fine_Woodworking_Network/Image_Resources/Web_Only/99928038_05_md.jpg

[Groggy]

Ron Dunn has one and likes it a lot. I have a Domino and like it too, but your reasons seem to indicate the Dowelmax is a good choice for you.

[Ron Dunn]

Groggy is right, I do have a Dowelmax and I like it better than any other dowelling device I've ever used. It is my preferred method of joinery.

I don't think a Dowelmax can do everything of which a Domino is capable. I've seen a PDF somewhere, can't remember where, which showed a Domino being used to construct a fold-out dining table. It showed off some great capability, but I also suspect that table was made by an expert, beyond the skills of the average Domino user.

There is a lot of debate over joint strength. I think either device is capable here. Perhaps the Domino has the edge in joints which are under considerable stress-and-release, like someone rocking back in a chair. I don't make chairs, not important to me.

Dowelmax is silent without electricity. If you use an electric drill you will still make noise. A corded drill is better than cordless, particularly if you are drilling dense Australian hardwoods. I solved the noise problem by buying a second-hand brace with parallel jaws, so I can use round-shanked bits.

If you decide to buy a Dowelmax, I recommend you order the metric version. Order the 6mm and 8mm guides at the same time as you buy the main unit. They're not cheap, but I find that 6mm and 8mm are much more usable than 10mm in typical Australian timber dimensions. Most hardware stores in Australia sell 6mm, 8mm and 10mm dowels. You can buy in bulk from Elraco, Timbecon, and probably others.

Let me know if you have any questions.

[US-Oz]

Very good points, Ron. Thanks for the tips and insights. I think I will go with the Dowelmax unless anyone can pipe up with a good reason why the Domino is better. I like the way that you can use a manual drill with the Dowelmax. So cool. I have visions of a far different world in the future, one where energy, electricity, cordless drills and oil are all much harder to come by (anyone here heard of Peak Oil (http://theoildrum.com/)?). I think this tool may be a treasure in those times to come.

[US-Oz]

Talking of hand drill's, here's one I'm getting from Amazon.com:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31fWW98WCTL.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000JRDLVY/cp58-20)

[US-Oz]

Don't want to hijack my own thread, but this reminds me that my old Dad had a huge Millers Falls manual drill I can ask him for too. Looks a bit like this, big brute it is:

http://oldtoolheaven.com/hand_drills/drillimg/d506121lg.jpg

[ian]

Hi guys,

I'm trying to decide between a Domino and a Dowelmax (http://www.dowelmax.com). The advantages of the Dowelmax are:

Low price compared to Domino, durability (the Dowelmax is a one-off lifetime buy, whereas the Domino will need new brushes and bearings in a few years)
Noise (Dowelmax is wonderfully quiet)
Non-proprietary consumables (Dowelmax works with ordinary dowels, Domino requires special Festool biscuits)
Dowelmax makes stronger joints (see their stress tests at dowelmax.com )The only advantage the Domino has is speed, as would perhaps be required in a commercial production shop. That's not me.

What say you guys? :)

http://www.dowelmax.com/images/dowelmax-large.jpg (http://www.dowelmax.com/)

http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/uploadedImages/Fine_Woodworking_Network/Image_Resources/Web_Only/99928038_05_md.jpglooks as though you've already made up your mind, but

if you really anticipate putting new brushes and bearings in a Domino in a "few years" it sounds like you intend making 10,000s of joints. In this case the speed of the Domino (both in joint setout and joint cutting) would be a VERY distinct advantage.

the cost of the dowels or biscuits are IMO irrelevant
Lignum has a post which shows how to make your own biscuits and there's low tech tools for making your own dowels.


joint strength is, again IMO, just sales talk.
both systems will make a joint of with more than enough strength for everyday use



ian

[Harry72]

"whereas the Domino will need new brushes and bearings in a few years"

1. Not with noncommercial use... it would take several life times.
Plus the dowelmax also will wear, the bushes after much use will become sloppy like any dowel jig.

2. The domino is surprisingly quite for a power tool, it would be no louder than a quality power drill and you'll hardly hear it over the vacuum cleaner anyway... oh yeah thats right domino has a dust extraction connection!

3. To get the strength that dowelmax quote you need to use high quality dowels(they clearly state this), good quality dowels are not that cheap considering you need several for every joint.
Domino's can be made very easily... for free from offcuts!(and yes dowels be can to but not as easily)

4. Thats a very subjective subject, if the joint(M&T/Domino/Dowel) fails due to strength clearly its the designers/design fault nothing to do with the actual joint. I mean if you know a joint will near a shear strength of 2000kg and you've used a section of say 50x20mm... its gunna break no matter what joint method you use isnt it!


Im not saying the dowelmax is no good, on the contrary its a good quality product and very efficient in the right hands. You are correct the price difference between the two is significant... but if you were really worried about saving the dollars you would buy neither and make a jig to do the job:D

[US-Oz]

"whereas the Domino will need new brushes and bearings in a few years"

1. Not with noncommercial use... it would take several life times.

You have more confidence in these parts than I do. I've had to replace such parts on a Dewalt and a Bosch tool, but maybe Festool is the exception.


Plus the dowelmax also will wear, the bushes after much use will become sloppy like any dowel jig.

As for the Dowelmax wearing, I doubt it will be fast. They say that the bushes are "Carbo-Nitride hardened (60 Rockwell @ .015"/0.38mm Deep) and black oxide coated steel". Rockwell 60 is extremely hard, much harder than a drill. That's even harder than my fancy knives.


2. The domino is surprisingly quite for a power tool, it would be no louder than a quality power drill and you'll hardly hear it over the vacuum cleaner anyway... oh yeah thats right domino has a dust extraction connection!

That's right, I forgot to add the vacuum into the equation as an extra expense.


3. To get the strength that dowelmax quote you need to use high quality dowels (they clearly state this), good quality dowels are not that cheap considering you need several for every joint. Domino's can be made very easily... for free from offcuts!(and yes dowels be can to but not as easily)

I'm still looking for where they say you need to use expensive high quality dowels with the Dowelmax. Do you have a page on their website where it says this? Thanks. And do you have a link to where it shows how to make these odd looking dowels for the Domino "easily"? Thanks again.

http://www.idealtools.com.au/images/domino%20dowel%20sizes%20b.jpg


Im not saying the dowelmax is no good, on the contrary its a good quality product and very efficient in the right hands. You are correct the price difference between the two is significant... but if you were really worried about saving the dollars you would buy neither and make a jig to do the job

The whole point of the Dowelmax seems to be that any hands are "the right hands". If you look at the reviews from Amazon and such, you'll see that guys have had their 11-yr old daughters making perfect joints with it.

Thanks for the input.

[les88]

I haven't used a Dowelmax but on youtube they certainly look the part. I have doweling jigs,
biscuit joiner and a Domino. I now only use the Domino it is so good I rarely use the other methods of joining
les

[Honorary Bloke]

.The whole point of the Dowelmax seems to be that any hands are "the right hands". If you look at the reviews from Amazon and such, you'll see that guys have had their 11-yr old daughters making perfect joints with it.

.

Yes, but as I don't have an 11 year old daughter to do the work, I'll stick with my Domino. :rolleyes::D:D

[LGS]

Yes, but as I don't have an 11 year old daughter to do the work, I'll stick with my Domino. :rolleyes::D:D

I think there are child labour laws against this aren't there?
Dominoes are so easy to make its ridiculous, but only those who use a domino would know that.
I do pretty much all my joinery using the domino and I still think DTs could be done with it as well.:wink:

[Stevenp]

I have the Domino and love it! The advantage with it is that you can cut a mortice in the middle of a panel (Shelves etc.) where the Dowelmax can't. Also the Domi can cut at nearly any angle.
The domi is very expensive but I consider mine to be a once in a lifetime purchase. It will be interesting to see which way you go.
Cheers Steven:)

[US-Oz]

I have the Domino and love it! The advantage with it is that you can cut a mortice in the middle of a panel (Shelves etc.) where the Dowelmax can't. Also the Domi can cut at nearly any angle.

Steven, they have a page on making shelving at the Dowelmax site:
http://www.dowelmax.com/diy-shelving.html

To the other Domino fans, I'm pleased you are happy with your purchase. I wonder how you'd feel if you owned a Dowelmax too...

[US-Oz]

Considering that the Dowelmax and Domino do comparable jobs at vastly different prices, the enthusiasm here for the Domino is a tribute to the Festool marketing department.

http://www.wrayways.com/images/store_instore.gif

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/images/Multi/Festool/large/Domino_Joiner.jpg

[US-Oz]

The domino is surprisingly quite for a power tool, it would be no louder than a quality power drill

This video would seem to suggest otherwise:
YouTube - Domino Edge Joining

[silentC]

I'm starting to wonder why you asked the question...

[US-Oz]

Well, sometimes being provocative is the best way to get people to defend a product, and then you find out things about it.

[silentC]

sometimes being provocative is the best way to get people to defend a product
Seems to have worked well on you :wink:

[US-Oz]

Touché :D

[les88]

Have you used either of these tools or just going by the pictures
Try the Domino at a Festool dealer that is set up for demos
The cost is steep but after a while you realize that the tool is exceptional
This is not a marketing ploy that has us Domino fans hooked it is the tool
BTW this is the only Festool that I have... why because I cannot afford any others yet
les

[US-Oz]

I'd like to see the "extremely easy" method of making your own Domino tenons before deciding.

[petersemple]

I had a router book from the library that talked about making "double tenon" joints with a router. The mortices were cut with a suitable shop made jig on the router. The "double tenon" biscuit was made on the router table with a rounding over bit. Pass a long plank through 4 times and then cut off lengths. I would guess you could make a domino in a similar way? You could make a variety of sizes too (never used a domino but from memory you can do different sized nortices with it?)

Peter

[LGS]

Peter's right on the money. In fact you can use a chamfer bit to make it even easier. You can make hundreds of tenons in only an hour or so and in any timber you want to use.

I have to ask if you really are comparing the two for use in your workshop. You seem unable to give any strong points for the Domino, which makes me think you're either looking a pics ( as Les queried) or reading a sales script. If in fact you think the Dowel MAx is that good, why bother with this question. Seems superfluous.:?

[US-Oz]

Thanks Peter for the suggestion. LGS, I am inclined to vote against Domino because I believe Australian buyers of their products are subsidising US buyers of their products. When I lived in the US, I saw them to be half the price of what they are here.

So anyway, I was searching for a thread here about making Domino tenons/dowels and instead turned up some offputting stuff, namely:

Inconsistent slot heights
http://woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=68993

Faulty springs (in such an expensive tool, kinda shocking, where's the famous Hun QA?):
http://woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=36288

The Domino: "I am absolutely sick of this tool":
http://woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=51705

2 domino joints failing on one table:
http://woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=52984

[LGS]

So you've made your decision. Why keep on about it?

[US-Oz]

No, I haven't yet, but those threads are helping. This forum's older posts are a real gold mine of information.

[petersemple]

So you've made your decision. Why keep on about it?

He's hoping some Festool fan out there will offer to send him a freebie just to change his mind:U

Peter

(and if there is a Festool fan out there willing to send a freebie PM for my address:D)

[ian]

No, I haven't yet, but those threads are helping. This forum's older posts are a real gold mine of information.I've gone back to the link in your original post

the front page shows a piece with 60 joints (though I count at least 90) at 5 minutes per joint, that's 5 hours of joint making ! or 7.5 hours (if there's really 90 joints)

Don't know about you, but given the other demands on my recreation time (kids sport, time with the family, church) that would translate to at least 1 whole weekend in the shed, if not 2, and averaging 5 mins per joint would be out of the question (after factoring in start up and clean up time each weekend) so it might even extend to 3 weekends just cutting joints.

when I've used a Domino, timings have been more like 15 to 20 seconds per joint.

you can see where I'm going



ian

[Honorary Bloke]

LGS, I am inclined to vote against Domino because I believe Australian buyers of their products are subsidising US buyers of their products. When I lived in the US, I saw them to be half the price of what they are here.

So, you admit that you are not really comparing the two, you are just on a Festool whinge? :? You won't buy a Domino because they are too expensive in OZ. This is a bit different reasoning than your first post would indicate.

[Ron Dunn]

Guys, don't you think some of you are taking this a little too personally? After all, he didn't say that Festool buyers are compensating for a 4" penis.

I took US-Oz' initial post as a request for comparative information. I gave him my experience as a Dowelmax user. If he decides to buy a Domino have I lost anything? No! I don't sell either tool, my identity is not bound up in either tool, I don't feel diminished by whatever decision he makes.

Why do you see it differently?

[Harry72]

You have more confidence in these parts than I do. I've had to replace such parts on a Dewalt and a Bosch tool, but maybe Festool is the exception.


I'm still looking for where they say you need to use expensive high quality dowels with the Dowelmax. Do you have a page on their website where it says this? Thanks. And do you have a link to where it shows how to make these odd looking dowels for the Domino "easily"? Thanks again.


Quote from dowelmax...
The Dowelmax is designed for use with any high
quality standard 3/8 or 1/4 inch dowels. Expansible
Dowel Pins are available from major woodworking
stores in the US and from Dowelmax, and have the
additional advantage of being made .005" oversize
and then compressed. The expansible dowel pins go
in snug, and then expand in the joint, back to their
original size, to lock in solid for a superior connection
that will not shrink or loosen over time. In over 30
years of woodworking, and 5 years of visiting tradeshows and furniture manufacturers with Dowelmax,
we have not seen a better joint than can be made with the Dowelmax and the Expansible Dowel Pins."

Believe me there are dowels and there are dowels!

Comparing Bocsh and Dewalt to Festool is comparing a common falcodoor to a S class Mercedes... or in woodys terms Kunz to LV or LN:)

[Honorary Bloke]

Well, sometimes being provocative is the best way to get people to defend a product, and then you find out things about it.


Considering that the Dowelmax and Domino do comparable jobs at vastly different prices, the enthusiasm here for the Domino is a tribute to the Festool marketing department.




So anyway, I was searching for a thread here about making Domino tenons/dowels and instead turned up some offputting stuff, namely:

Inconsistent slot heights
http://woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=68993

Faulty springs (in such an expensive tool, kinda shocking, where's the famous Hun QA?):
http://woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=36288

The Domino: "I am absolutely sick of this tool":
http://woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=51705

2 domino joints failing on one table:
http://woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=52984

Ron,

Do you mean to say that you believe these were all made in the spirit of good fun? Of real comparison? There are 4,897 (give or take a thousand :wink:) positive posts about the Domino on here but he links to 4 negative ones.

And implies we only bought a Domi because we were duped by the Festo marketing department.

Plus a gratuitous cross-post in another thread.

And admits he is deliberately being provocative.

And then you say we are taking it personally? Of course we are! As it was meant.

US-Oz,

The Dowelmax is a fine jig, I've nothing against it. Buy it by all means. Buy 2. Buy 10. But don't come round pretending you want to do a comparison when your mind is made up. If you are going to go trolling, you should expect a bite or two, and not always only on the bait. :cool:

[US-Oz]

I've gone back to the link in your original post. The front page shows a piece with 60 joints (though I count at least 90) at 5 minutes per joint, that's 5 hours of joint making ! or 7.5 hours (if there's really 90 joints)

We're not looking at the same China Cabinet, then. Don't forget, each Dowelmax joint involves up to 5 dowels. So 5min = 5 dowels. I can barely see 40 joints on that picture.

The sort of speed you are talking about is useful if you're doing this commercially, as I said in my first post.

[US-Oz]

So, you admit that you are not really comparing the two, you are just on a Festool whinge? :? You won't buy a Domino because they are too expensive in OZ. This is a bit different reasoning than your first post would indicate.

I don't need the psychoanalysis thanks. Is there a reason for resorting so quickly to ad hominems? Are you affronted that I impugned your favorite tool? There, there, steady on, fellow.

I mentioned that I thought the Festool was overpriced here. It is, that's a simple fact. It prejudices me against it. It's a negative, as I said in my very first post, where I mentioned the cost.

[stolar]

US-Oz, trolling really does not become your age :rolleyes:

[US-Oz]

Quote from dowelmax...
The Dowelmax is designed for use with any high
quality standard 3/8 or 1/4 inch dowels.

Harry, the words "high quality" are used in relation to absolutely everything on the Dowelmax website. Didn't you notice? I actually called them after your post and they say it works with any reputable brand of dowel.

So there we have it, no need to buy overpriced proprietary dowel/tenons or try to make them yourself. Advantage Dowelmax.

[US-Oz]

But don't come round pretending you want to do a comparison when your mind is made up. If you are going to go trolling, you should expect a bite or two, and not always only on the bait. :cool:

I actually didn't get many comparisons at all, so I hung some bait out, and instead of getting slam dunks for the Dom. and against the DM, I got a few weak arguments that tend to reinforce my prejudices.

And I don't mind some sniping. That always happens when you make comments that imply someone may not have made the best purchase decision.

[Harry72]

This video would seem to suggest otherwise:
YouTube - Domino Edge Joining (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz3y4QbmoyY)

Hardly an ideal sound track to judge it by. Camcorders have notoriously bad mic's that pic up on mid/high frequency's.:doh:

Have you ever heard a festool vac, they would be the quietest on the market, in that clip the domi is not very much louder...

[Honorary Bloke]

Hurrah for your side!

Hmmm . . . I believe we may be approaching the Use By date on this thread. :)

[US-Oz]

Yup, if that's all there is, I'll go with the Dowelmax. In fact I'll buy a few of them, and if anyone in Perth wants one without the shipping wait/uncertainty, contact me by PM.

[Harry72]

Harry, the words "high quality" are used in relation to absolutely everything on the Dowelmax website. Didn't you notice? I actually called them after your post and they say it works with any reputable brand of dowel.

So there we have it, no need to buy overpriced proprietary dowel/tenons or try to make them yourself. Advantage Dowelmax.

I didnt say you needed to buy dowels from dowelmax!!!!
I said you need good quality dowels not cheap crap.


Just buy the dowelmax mate and be happy:2tsup:

[ian]

Harry

have a look at US-Oz's other posts

[les88]

I did Ian..... enough said
les

[Ron Dunn]

Back to some of the technical issues.

Dowels. There are a special dowel, available in US and Canada, which are said to be the absolute best. They are only available in imperial sizes, so I've never used them. I've been using hardware-store Haron dowels for years, possibly throw out 2-3 per pack, and never had a problem using them.

Shipping. I've placed two orders with Dowelmax - my original jig purchase, and later purchase of the 8mm guides I should have ordered in the first place - and both arrived on my doorstep within 5 days.

Time: I've got no doubt that a Dowelmax is slower than a Domino. Especially for me, because I drill my holes with a brace.

[Honorary Bloke]

Ron,

I don't think anyone has had a go at the Dowelmax. It is a brilliant piece of kit. Your posts have been factual and objective. But consider:

"Oooh, wish I had one of those! [referring to an old Stanley 59.] The price for the Ozzie jig and the Dowelmax are frankly absurdly high."

Now who do you suppose posted that comment? :wink:

[US-Oz]

I don't think anyone has had a go at the Dowelmax.

Yes they did. By saying it only works "in the right hands" it was implied that the Dowelmax is a tricky item. It ain't.




"Oooh, wish I had one of those! [referring to an old Stanley 59.] The price for the Ozzie jig and the Dowelmax are frankly absurdly high."

Now who do you suppose posted that comment? :wink:

Oh dear, now you and your Domino-luvin' mates are stalking me all over this board. Got no life, eh?

I did think the Dowelmax was very overpriced, but the more I looked at it the more I became reconciled to the price given the quality and versatility. I changed my mind. So sue me.

It's not my fault you paid too much for a tool. Get over it.

[Harry72]

Harry

have a look at US-Oz's other posts

Yep... say no more

[US-Oz]

I've been using hardware-store Haron dowels for years, possibly throw out 2-3 per pack, and never had a problem using them.

Thanks for confirming that, Ron.

[Ron Dunn]

Is there anyone in Melbourne's North or West who has a Domino, and would like to spend a couple of hours with me one afternoon making some equivalent joints?

What I'm thinking is that we use some cheap timber (pine?) in a standard size, and each make some basic joints such as butt, right-angle, mitre, T and shelf. Maybe make a small panel. Not a competition, not a race, just a bit of comparative evaluation in the shed.

I think that if we worked side-by-side we would get a much better understanding of the strengths, weaknesses and limitations of each tool.

[Harry72]

Sounds good Ron, remember to take some pictures otherwise
:worthless: :2tsup::D

[LGS]

Would the comparison include making Dados for the panel to slot into the frame, creating a through mortise, making holes for table top buttons, making bench dogs and dog holes and a 3 way mitre joint?
If not, then its not a true comparison.

[LGS]

Ron,
No offence was meant. If you want to do this, I live in the North East of Melbourne and am happy to oblige. I'll send a PM.
However, I do want to make the point that the particular functions I mentioned are possible using the Domino.

[Ron Dunn]

My misunderstanding ... PM waiting :)

[echnidna]

BTW I don't have a Domino but only a GMC dowelling machine and a biscuit joiner but would like one if I could justify the cost.


Peter.

same here Peter, my totally unused bj sits just sits here on a shelf but the doweler gets some use.

sadly the gmc doweler is no longer available in oz but there is now a triton one available in the usa.

if anyone wants to dispose of a gmc doweler please pm me as I would like another just for spare parts.

[US-Oz]

Shipping. I've placed two orders with Dowelmax - my original jig purchase, and later purchase of the 8mm guides I should have ordered in the first place - and both arrived on my doorstep within 5 days.

You're right about the shipping too, Ron, very quick, got them today. Bought 3 of them, all with 6 & 8mm guides.

Opened one, and what a beautiful tool. I haven't seen quality like this since I was a boy. It's clearly not a "Made in China" item.

I have two others, both still in unopened boxes, if anyone in Perth wants to buy from me directly. PM me if you are interested.

[Lignum]

For the casual DIY`er the dowlmax has to be the go. But for those who want to step it up a notch, it’s a no brainier. Domino craps all over any dowel jig. Its that simple. End thread.:)

[Ron Dunn]

Lignum, thank you for sharing your wisdom about a tool it seems you have never tried. Most people would call that "b*llshit", but I think we should all be grateful for your insight and expertise.

[US-Oz]

Lignum, that's just your opinion, and you only own the Domino. Here's a guy who owns both, and seems to prefer the Dowelmax, as he says at the end of his video.

"http://lumberjocks.com/jocks/mot/blog/1030"

[Lignum]

Seen that before and its just "his opinion"

I have also used both, and for the casual part timer the dowlmax is spot on.

But to even suggest the dowelmax comes close is ludicrous. For the woodworker who thinks outside the square, the Domino is unsurpassed, and the best tool invention since the Table Saw

[Lignum]

Lignum, thank you for sharing your wisdom about a tool it seems you have never tried. Most people would call that "b*llshit", but I think we should all be grateful for your insight and expertise.

Good to see you back sharing your opinion about me. I love having my very own stalker:D

[US-Oz]

So Lignum, in your opinion the faster tool is the better one, and justifies the 3x cost. That's ok, if you make furniture for a living I won't argue. But for the DIYer, or hobbyist, the Dowelmax is a no-brainer.

[Lignum]

Where have i mentioned speed? Not once have i mentioned it, you have just made that up. Those who know me, know speed isnt part of my woodworking ways :-:)

It what the domino can do as an allrounder that gives it the edge.

Im curious. Why have you started this thread asking for opinions, but have shouted down those who favor the dowelmax:?:?:?

[US-Oz]

I wanted to use this thread to make a decision for myself, Lignum. It was not started it for everyone's benefit. And I was leaning towards the Dowelmax from the get-go.

So, if it isn't the speed, can you tell me exactly what the Domino can do that the Dowelmax cannot do, just for interest's sake? Thanks.

[Ron Dunn]

Two points, US-Oz,

1. It is just a tool.
2. So is Lignum

About #1, that means it doesn't matter what anyone uses, there is no right or wrong in personal choice.

About #2, well, you get used to Lignum's dogmatic and muddle-headed views about tools. Search on Sawstop and you'll see what I mean.

[Lignum]

I can you tell me exactly what the Domino can do that the Dowelmax cannot do, just for interest's sake? Thanks.

Well I`ll let Ron do that as he is the expert and im just the tool:)

[US-Oz]

Oh, I agree with you about the "just a tool" aspect, Ron, and I certainly would buy a Domino if I had a furniture business.

[Ron Dunn]

Lignum, perhaps reading the thread before shooting from the lip would give you the answers you seek.

Both LGS and I have previously mentioned things a Domino can do that I doubt a Dowelmax would be able to achieve. After I've met with LGS I dare say I will have learned one or two more, and I suspect he will find a couple of advantages to Dowelmax.

Are you a member at FOG? A little searching would find a few threads involving people who own and use both tools. But they're probably too open-minded to fit into your prejudices, right?

[US-Oz]

As I said to Ron in a PM, I should probably re-study the Domino sales pamphlet I have somewhere. If people contend that the Domino can do angles and the Dowelmax cannot, that's not strictly true, because with the right shim or easily-made jig, it can.

http://www.dowelmax.com/images/anglejoints.jpg

It also does shelving.

http://www.dowelmax.com/images/diy13.jpg

[Lignum]

If people contend that the Domino can do angles and the Dowelmax cannot, that's not strictly true, because with the right shim or easily-made jig, it can.
Who has said that. I must have missed It. But as Ron kindly pointed out i havnt read the thread properly.

And I still see nothng wrong with saying “For the casual DIY`er the Dowlmax has to be the go. But for those who want to step it up a notch, it’s a no brainier. Domino craps all over any dowel jig. Its that simple"

Contrary to Rons assessment of my post, I clearly pointed out the Dowlmax is the go for the DIY`er. Why would I recommend an expensive tool for the DIY hobbyist?

[US-Oz]

I think you could modify your statement from "For the casual DIYer" to "For the DIYer". Do you agree? I cannot see the value in the 3x more expensive tool for the DIYer, unless money is no object.

[Lignum]

I think you could modify your statement from "For the casual DIYer" to "For the DIYer". Do you agree? .

we will agree to disagre on this, as you have made your mind up and dont need any of my Domino feedback. I`ll leave it to Ron and others to help you :)

[US-Oz]

Ron pointed out to me in a PM that the Domino can do things like a 3-way mitre joint, and he couldn't see an easy way for the Dowelmax to do the same. Now I don't know whether or not a Dowelmax can do a 3-way mitre, but it's such a rare join that it hardly matters to 99.9% of DIYers.

http://www.chiselandbit.com/cgi-script/CSUpload//upload/Edwards_Credenza%252edb/3%20WAY%20DRY%20FIT.JPG

[Groggy]

The other day I cut 25 dominos in 6 lengths for a tabletop and glued it in under 15 minutes (I had a helper on spreading the glue). I find the domino gets things done fast and accurately and don't regret the purchase at all. I can put two pieces together, make random marks without measuring, then cut the mortices. Dip the dominos, insert in holes, wipe a smear more glue then clamp.

If it was stolen it would be a priority to replace.

[US-Oz]

Groggy, the Dowelmax would do the same, but not in 15 mins. If money is not a consideration, the Domino seems to suit.

[routermaniac]

I can't believe this thread has degenerated to this... C'mon people lets be sensible, do we have nothing better to do than sing the praises of tools at the cost of insulting other fellow members? Or have you all bought shares in dowelmax or festool?

This is ridiculous. Anyone who has looked at both the dowelmax and the festool domino can see that each tool has its distinct advantages. And anyone who has used both of these would know that both work well and do what they are advertised to do.

There is no doubt if you have the money to spend and you are into making a lot of pieces quickly, that the domino is a versatile tool and probably the best choice, provided you are not going to starve your family to buy it. On the other hand some of us do not need this versatility or want to fork out so much money for a hobby... $1700 is what is costs for the complete domino kit with the box of dominos... thats a bit of money on top of all the other tools that we MUST have (table saw, bandsaw, jointer, thicknesser, etc!) :).

In my eyes that is a lot of money to spend for ME, given that I can usually find an alternative joint to a domino. Can I justify that much on a tool that I am likely to use once a month? For me the answer is a clear NO. On the other hand it would be nice to be able to align/make laminated table tops easily, have a quick way to align/put together cabinets, or align and hold any two pieces together for glueing purposes. I find those fiddly jobs and there is nothing more frustrating than trying to glue something while it is constantly sliding away.

The dowelmax does that and it does it very well. It is also very quick and for small pieces a lot more easy to handle than the domino. And unless your drill was made in the 1800s the dowelmax is going to make less noise. I still think it is a lot of money for what it is, but since I bought it it has made life a lot easier. So there are no regrets.

The domino is a fine tool, I had the opportunity to play with one at Carbatec. I think its main advantage is versatility, if you are into jointing timber at all sorts of angles and you do it regularly, you a probably better off with a domino. The dowelmax does angles but not that easily or quickly.

Thats my 5 cents worth.

regards

Marios

[Lignum]

Ron pointed out to me in a PM that the Domino can do things like a 3-way mitre joint, and he couldn't see an easy way for the Dowelmax to do the same. Now I don't know wether or not a Dowelmax can do a 3-way mitre, but it's such a rare join that it hardly matters to 99.9% of DIYers.

Thats because Ron isn’t looking outside the square. Of course the Dowlmax can do a 3-way mitre.

And why is it a rare join? Because the traditional way is time consuming and requires a high skill level so most stayed away. Have a look at the amount of 3-way mitres now appearing in furniture mags. Even the last AWR Studio comp had 3 entries that made the finals with 3-way mitres. And the Domino was responsible for those no doubt .

Domino does heaps more, like cutting dovetail sockets , drawer pulls, home made handles etc, the list grows everyday you use the machine. I have nothing againsed any doweling jig, but the Domino is in a class of its own. You can not compare the two, but for using the Dowlmax for the joins shown in your photo above, it’s a first class alternative for the DIY`er and hobbyist and even the serious amateur

[US-Oz]

The last two posts above are a pretty good summary. Thanks.

[Waldo]

As I said to Ron in a PM, I should probably re-study the Domino sales pamphlet I have somewhere. If people contend that the Domino can do angles and the Dowelmax cannot, that's not strictly true, because with the right shim or easily-made jig, it can.

http://www.dowelmax.com/images/anglejoints.jpg

It also does shelving.

http://www.dowelmax.com/images/diy13.jpg

I'm going to wade in here. Although I still have very little experience with my Domino I know I can do the same thing (as per the octagonal clock housing) with 1 tenon veery easily against drilling for 3 dowels with a lot more speed and complete accuracy. Okay, I don't know what speed a Dowelmax gives.

I normally go top of middle range with 90% of tools, otherwise I'd be broke, because they can do the same job. A Hammer for example would walk over a 10HB to give a brand comparison, but I bought the 10HB and it's great.

I ummed and arred for along time on the Domino, but I finally bought it based on the amount of m&ts I'll be doing for a current project and the speed and accuracy the Domino gives me - and accuracy was the deciding factor.

But I'm not biased towards the Domino, I still cringe when I look at it based on price point, but I know it saves massive time. Have I been swayed by marketing hell :no: , but by recommendation and its ability. If I'd been swayed by marketing I'd only buy Festool tenons, but I'm a lesser mug than that.

Have I made furniture using dowels for jointing boards? :yes: , it worked but it was slow and I had to be very exacting. Would I now? :no:

$279 US for a Dowelmax, (say $285 odd AUS) against Festool Domino $1,395. It's a big price gap, but if I were honestly comparing them objectively, then I'd go Domino.

It's the one time I have only ever bought the best of the best. (maybe Veritas Bevel Up Smoother excepted)

[Lignum]

US-Oz just a pic on the Domino and Dovetail.

Speed isnt something that worries me at all, but here is a very quick "roughish:) " Dovetail using the Domino.

To cut the bulk of the sockets perfectly flat and smooth on the back and bottom of the socket. 20 seconds [edit 1min 20 seconds as you have to change from the 10mm cutter to the 5mm cutter] and its done, leaving only some quick simple clean up of the side with a chisel. Then its just up to you on your fav way to cut the tails. I just use the bandsaw

So you see im not having a dig at the Dowelmax, but the longer people have the Domino the more they are using it for joinery away from standard uses of joining of timber that it was originally intended. :)

[watson]

G'day,
I've been watching this thread for a while, and I think its a good discussion about two very good bits of kit. Neither of which I own, or can afford.
The pros and cons are all worthwhile for a potential buyer, or an interested bystander, as I am in this case.
I just can't understand why, when one member disagrees with another member's point of view, that it descends into name calling, and derogatory remarks about the other member's brain cell count etc.

I've nothing further to add, other than that disappoints me.

Noel

[martrix]

I have long forgotten the price of the domino. It has already easily paid itself off, and yes I use it for work. The speed, accuracy and versatility of it is unmatched. Even if I couldn't afford a domino, I still wouldn't buy a doweling jig.

[jefferson]

Like some others, I've watched this thread with interest, having acquired a Domino recently.

I confess to being a wanna be wood worker - that is, I have made up for my shortfall in hand and other skills with a good deal of machinery purchases. (After a few "cheap" purchases, I now believe in buying the best I can afford -and then some).

So I have some great machines. A Vicmarc lathe to start with and some others. Plus a Sawstop, which gets wired tomorrow, add a Minimax CU 300.... A Leigh D4 dovetail jig, a Leigh FMT..... It goes on.

So I am very much reliant on machines / jigs for the best result. I don't handcut dovetails when I join 100 year old redgum, though I'd sure like to see anyone chop the pins and tails with a chisel. Yep, that feedback (from a forumite) stung when I posted pics of 5 redgum display cabs that took 2 weeks to build.

I thus have a Domino after using a dowel jig for some time. Better? You betcha. What is the price differential? One system has no moving parts but costs plenty. It requires a drill (add that to your costs) and has no dust extraction. But more importantly, there is no flexibility. If you don't align the pencil marks right, your don't get a good fit. Unlike the Domino where mistakes can be "corrected" by a wider fit.

But neither is a fine wood working approach - why dowel or Domino when you should be using housed joints or more preferably sliding dovetails?

So cut the CrAP. Some of us want to put things together quickly and accurately - and make furniture instead of melamine cabinets. I've spent more time in the shed slaving over whiteboard and I know what I'd prefer to be doing.

Dowels? Yes, in a production-line factory where jigs are supreme. But not for mortals that gain some satisfaction from a mix of both.

Jeff

[US-Oz]

I thus have a Domino after using a dowel jig for some time.

If you think the comparison is between a simple dowel jig and a domino, I think you are missing the point. The Dowelmax is ≠ any old doweling jig.


If you don't align the pencil marks right, your don't get a good fit. Unlike the Domino where mistakes can be "corrected" by a wider fit.

This does not apply to the Dowelmax.

[US-Oz]

I have long forgotten the price of the domino. It has already easily paid itself off, and yes I use it for work.

And since this thread is about DIY furniture (see the thread's title), not commercial production furniture, your opinion is tangential. But thanks for commenting.

[Waldo]

Commercial or other is no matter surely, it's akin to only accepting comments based on he/she has 40 years experience to he/she only has 3 days. :?

[US-Oz]

Waldo, I, like most DIYers (who make up the majority of readers of this forum I would imagine), like to know what professionals use, and why. But since


time is money to them, and
tool costs can be claimed as deductions at tax time

there is a limited overlap between their needs and those of the DIYers.

[Different]

Well it is nice to see a thread with namecalling ans assorted abuse which I didnt start! Very refreshing but I do have a few points to make.

Firstly I dont have either Jig and am not in a real hurry to do so not because I dont like them just dont need them that bad is all.
Now I am all for people buying these jigs and others like the Leigh but what concerns me is that lots of people new to woodworking read these threads and come away with the false Idea that something like a domino or even a Biscuit Jointer is a "required" tool! It is not and if the journey to "craftsmanship" is a valuable one then perhaps they are an impediment.

I often wade in when I see a newbie asking for advice on his list of must have tools when he is set to spend a heap of money on a Domino but is cheaping out on the really important machines like a Table or Band Saw and in most cases I get told of by one "Tool Tribe" or another for threatening their beloved tool whatever it is at the time.
I suppose what I am trying to say is it seems some people pay a lot too much attention to their tools (no pun intended, well almost) and there are a few people here who just ache for a chance to get into a slinging match with anybody who doesnt see things their way.
I think what we need is a bit more objectivity and a bit less pugilism .

OK you can all flame me now !

Rgds

Ross

[LGS]

Coulda saved even more money US-Oz. Looks like you wuz ripped off!:)

bt3central.com/showthread.php?t=36107

[Ron Dunn]

I'm in complete agreement with Different ... I must have overdone the valium last night :)

[LGS]

Me too Ron.
Advice was asked and given, but was not received in the spirit of serious discussion.

[silentC]

I don't own either of these tools either and have no intention of buying one. I don't see the need when it's easy enough to cut a mortice and tenon or whatever with traditional means.

However, for me if you put aside the question of money etc., it boils down to whether you want to use dowels or floating tenons in your joinery. Since I have a distinct dislike of dowels, that decision is easy for me. However, I think you will find it hard to prove that a dowel joint, even with four of them, is as strong as a floating tenon.

The other problem with dowels is that they tend to shrink over time as they dry out, so they go from round to oval. This is OK in a situation where there is no chance of movement in the joint, but in a chair for example, the constant movement over time can cause the joint to work loose. Because the hole is round, the gluing surface of a dowel when used in long grain contains a large amount of end grain, which is not the best gluing surface. A floating tenon has mostly long grain to long grain, which is what you want.

Comparing a floating tenon system to a dowelling system is not really comparing apples to apples. You need to decide which method you prefer, and then choose the tool. If you want dowels, there's no point buying a Domino. If you want floating tenons, there's no point buying a Dowelmax.

[Ron Dunn]

silentC, is Hoadley the source of your dowel shrinkage thoughts? Keep in mind that his original article was about dowel-tenon (name?) joints in turned chair legs and rails. To the best of my knowledge there is no first-source evidence of dowel shrinkage in case-work furniture.

I have dowelled furniture of my own which is around 20 years old. I recently dis-assembled a horrible bookcase, and had to use a hammer to do it.

My father made some dowelled bookcases around 50 years ago. They have moved house six times, and are still as strong (and ugly) as the day they were built.

As I mentioned earlier, the only place where I have concerns about the use of a dowelled joint is in something like a chair rail-to-leg, where the joint is under continued stress if someone rocks back and forth on the leg. Even here, though, I suspect that modern glues would compensate, but I'm not about to try it.

Have you seen any other evidence of dowel failure?

[silentC]

Well, yes as a matter of fact I have seen cabinets using dowels come apart. Chairs certainly. But also bookcases and table leg to apron joints.

It is a fact that dowels contract into an oval shape as they dry out. This is because they are made from wood and we all know that wood shrinks away from the heart wood. So it is natural that a dowel, which is round, will not shrink in a uniform way.

Obviously not all dowelled furniture is bound to fail. There are other factors. No-one is saying that dowels are useless because the evidence is out there.

What I'm suggesting, is that my preference is for floating tenons, because I don't like dowels. This is the personal opinion part of the post. But my main point is that you must decide which you prefer before talking about which tool to buy, because it is not a level comparison. You're not just making a choice of tool, you're making a choice of joinery method.

And I hate dowels :)

[Ron Dunn]

silentC, I think it would be an interesting subject for some scientific study. Factors like diameter and length of dowel, number and placement of dowels, glues, etc. would make good parameters. Perhaps I'll fund it when I make my first $10 million *grin*

I think your fourth paragraph - choose joining method then tool - is 100% correct. There are a lot more factors than shape of hole and tenon to guide tool purchases.

[silentC]

Yes it would be interesting but I think you'd need a time machine to do it properly :)

[US-Oz]

I often wade in when I see a newbie asking for advice on his list of must have tools when he is set to spend a heap of money on a Domino but is cheaping out on the really important machines like a Table or Band Saw [snip]

Good point, Different. I had a table saw in the US but nearly killed myself with it (piece of wood about a foot long shot out into my chest like a bullet, nearly stopped my heart, left a gigantic bruise and even today there are funny lumps called granulomas on my ribs where it hit me). So I am not too keen to buy another one. Instead, I bought one of these from EurekaZone.com for my Dewalt circular saw (it arrives today I think :) ) -

http://www.eurekazone.com/images/products/detail/SGS100detail.jpg

[US-Oz]

Coulda saved even more money US-Oz. Looks like you wuz ripped off!:)

.bt3central.com/showthread.php?t=36107


Nah, LGS, that's a crappy homemade item. The guy used mild steel spacers glued in with superglue as bushings .. LOL! I give it a few months before he has major problems.

[US-Oz]

However, I think you will find it hard to prove that a dowel joint, even with four of them, is as strong as a floating tenon.


I do believe the Dowelmax people do exactly that on their testing page:

http://www.dowelmax.com/jointstrength.html

[silentC]

Hang on, aren't you the bloke who derided people for believing the Domino marketing hype a few pages ago?

Yes, I'm sure we can count on the manufacturer of the product to give a fair and unbiased assessment!