looking at building a timber strip kayak, just a few questions

[Chikoroll]

:) this will be an ongoing thread, though it will take some time of course

i am looking at building a timber strip kayak, similar to the Guillemot (http://www.blueheronkayaks.com/kayak/index.html)

i know it's a big job, i have the skills, the equipment and the space to do it, so no issues there

to kick it off, i was wondering which of the following timbers would be best for this application? and roughly how much is needed:2tsup:

North Queensland Mahogany
Western Australian Jarrah
European White Beech
American Cherry
Spanish Cedar
American Oak
Tasmanian Oak
Queensland Blackbean
New Guinee Rosewood
New Guinee Walnut
(unknown origin) Silver Ash

cheers :D

[Boatmik]

Howdy,

Most of these timbers are too heavy to build much of a kayak from.

The two best choices for the timber strips are
Western Red Cedar
Paulownia

Both of which help keep the weight down.

However many of the other timbers you mention would look nice as contrasting colour strips in a couple of places.

But you do need to choose timber that glues very reliably. I am not sure, but I think the beech has gluing issues and the American white Oak can have gluing issues too depending on the species.

Jarrah is heavy ... so you would not want to use more than a narrow strip.

The normal way of working out the right number of strips is to work out what size they are going to be when finished.

Most kayaks and canoes use 6mm thick strips.

The width usually depends on what is economical from the original stock. Common widths to aim for are around 22mm, though I have been supplied with as wide as 24mm and as narrow as 19mm.

These are normally "cusped and coved" ... one edge i routed convex and the other edge is routed concave.

Once you have worked out the effective width of the strip then run a tape right round the girth of the kayak. Take that measurement and divide by the strip width and you will have the strip number required. Generally you would want 4 or so extra strips.

Best wishes
Michael Storer

[whitewood]

Chickroll

Have a look at a recent tread titled 'strip planking'. There is a post by Allan Newhouse showing kayaks made of a mixture of Paukownia and WRC that are beautifull.

[Chikoroll]

thanks for the replies :)

just jotting down my brain here... if it helps anyone in the future then it's served a purpose ;)

i was just having a look at the weights of timbers, as i don't really want to spend any money on the timber- those listed are what i have access to (and in large quantities):2tsup:

came across this website giving kg/cubic metre (remembering water has 1000kg/cubic metre, anything below it will float, the lower the better buoyancy)
http://www.simetric.co.uk/si_wood.htm
pounds/cubic foot is the imperial
16.01846 is the conversion rate
pounds/cubic foot x 16.01846 = kg/cubic metre

(approximate weights)

North Queensland Mahogany ~ 995kg/cm
Western Australian Jarrah ~ 820kg/cm
European White Beech ~ 700kg/cm
American Cherry ~ 610kg/cm
Spanish Cedar ~ 416kg/cm
American Oak ~ 640kg/cm
Tasmanian Oak ~700kg/cm
Queensland Blackbean ~ 755kg/cm
New Guinee Rosewood ~ 650kg/cm
New Guinee Walnut ~ 550kg/cm
(unknown origin) Silver Ash ~ 650kg/cm

the 2 suggestions
Paulownia ~ 240kg/cm
Western Red Cedar ~ 380kg/cm


so how much is the average cost of Paulownia and western red cedar, unmilled and milled? (i have no issues milling it myself)

[whitewood]

Chikoroll

Where do yo live? It has a significant bearing on whether it is practical to obtain a log to mill your own planks and strips.

[jmk89]

the 2 suggestions
Paulownia ~ 240kg/cm
Western Red Cedar ~ 380kg/cm


so how much is the average cost of Paulownia and western red cedar, unmilled and milled? (i have no issues milling it myself)


Have a look at whitewood's website (http://www.paulownia-timber-sales.com.au/)(he grows and sells paulownia) - as he says the freight will be the main issue, nit the cost of the timber itself.

[Chikoroll]

brisbane, inala, 4077

[anewhouse]

A Guillemot has about 4.5 m2 of surface area. If you use 6mm strips, there would be 0.27 m3 of timber in the hull and deck.
If you use Paulownia that would weigh 6 or 7 kg
WRC would be about 10 kg
Tas Oak would be about 19 kg
Jarrah would be about 22 kg

You would need to add somewhere between 6 and 12 kg for the glass and resin as well as the coaming, footrests, seat etc.

So a Paulownia kayak would be between 12 and 19 kg finished weight.
A Jarrah one would be between 28 and 34 kg

I know which one I would prefer to lift up onto the roof rack on top of the car.

While it is possible to use 22mm strips, that is wider than most kayak builders use and you would need to rip some to half that width to get around the curve at the chine on most designs.

I used 19mm strips and that seems to be by far the most common width. I used 10 or 12mm wide strips on the tighter curves.

Not everyone uses bead and cove edged strips. I have built four and just beveled the edges where necessary. Bead and cove creates some extra problems where tapered strips need to be fitted.

[anewhouse]

This site:

http://oneoceankayaks.com/smallwin/stripcalc.htm

may help you work out how much timber you need.

It is one of several that have a wealth of information about strip built kayaks.

[Boatmik]

He's right you know!

Cheers for that anewhouse

Mik

[Chikoroll]

big thanks for that anewhouse

is 10kilo's that much a difference when it's in the water? be about the same weight as a plastic one wouldn't it? - and wouldn't the design of the kayak also minimise the effects of this- such as making a longer lead in to deflect the water more efficiently

i will do a bit more researching before i commit, and then i will give whitewood a yell if i decide to go for paulownia, (or i might just use the spanish cedar- i have 5cubic metres in 4 metre lengths of this in 50x50 and 150x150)

[whitewood]

Chikoroll

I don't want to enter into the debate over light versus heavy kayaks. However water craft that are built for speed are also built to be as light as practical. Having said that I live just over the Qld border near Murwillumbah. If you wanted a Paulownia log or 2 to mill your own timber I'm sure we could work out a deal. I have logs that have been in a stack for 2 years so the timber will air dry in days if cut into strips or a few weeks if it's 25 mm thick

John

[anewhouse]

Having always owned light kayaks and canoes, I would argue that 10kg makes an enormous difference.
I can easily lift mine onto the car and carry it to the water with one hand. Friends with heavy tupperware kayaks often need help to load and carry their kayaks.

Heavy kayaks that I have paddled often feel sluggish in the water. They may not actually be that much slower, but they feel unresponsive.

Modifying the design to have a long tapered bow doesn't completely eliminate the disadvantage of the extra weight. It doesn't help with acceleration and it means that the bow won't lift over waves as easily. That is partly because of the reduced volume in the bow and partly because there is more weight close to the ends of the kayak, so there is more inertia and the bow resists lifting.

A good solution to the choice of timber might be a mixture of your Spanish cedar, which is a reasonable weight and Paulownia. I am assuming the cedar is a bit like WRC, so it would contrast nicely with the very pale Paulownia.

[KJL38]

Chikoroll
10 kg is an enormous amount of weight in terms of kayaks. You will notice the difference in handling more than speed and 10 kg could be the difference between a craft that is beautiful to paddle and one that is a dog.

The weight will also have a big impact on handling the kayak on land, I know one of my kayaks didn't get near as much use as it otherwise would purely due to the hassle of lifting it on and off the car. I ended up selling it even though I loved the way it handled rough conditions purely because of the weight factor.

A friend of mine built a cedar strip plank Cape Ann Expedition kayak to which he added extra layers of glass to beef it up. The end result was about the same weight as many commercial composite sea kayaks but since then he hasn't used it much as he prefers his other kayaks. Without the extra weight it would have been much more fun to paddle.

Do you have a vision of what you want your kayak to do? The conditions it will be used in, loads it will normally carry etc? Also speed vs maneuverability vs stability? Perhaps you could find some kayaks to test paddle in your area to help establish which criteria are important to you?

Sorry for rambling on for so long but I hate to see someone go to all the trouble of building and then see it sit in the shed instead of being used like it's meant to be.

Kelvin

[Boatmik]

I would agree with all the above. My feeling is that even 5 to 7 lbs over a strip cedar built boat is a big difference.

The only area I would add ... is that while an extra 5lbs is noticeable on the water it is probably about 5 times more noticeable when you have to lug the boat somewhere by yourself. Maybe car roof to the beach.

Under 50 lbs it is reasonably easy for one person - though lighter makes it simple. But by the time you get to 60, 65 or 70 it is starting to be quite a weight for one person.

The hull for my Beth sailing canoe was 70lbs originally and as a 30 something (age) I could put it on my shoulder and carry it down to the shore over a distance with some degree of discomfort - it was better with some help ... but at least I could do it by myself. I couldn't consider it now at the end of my 40 somethings - so would have to put trolley wheels at one end or launch on grass or sand where I can drag the boat.

But a 50 pounder makes it easy - no pain and discomfort when I was in my 30s but now almost 50 ... I am wanting every single pound removed from the boat that I possibly can.

If you look at a boat and think of carrying it and what you feel is "no worries" then you are going to use that boat a hell of a lot.

Best wishes
MIK

[b.o.a.t.]

big thanks for that anewhouse

is 10kilo's that much a difference when it's in the water? be about the same weight as a plastic one wouldn't it? - and wouldn't the design of the kayak also minimise the effects of this- such as making a longer lead in to deflect the water more efficiently



G'day chikoroll

depends on how lazy you are.

look at what "displacement" actually means in practice...

Every boat-length you travel you move an amount of water, equal to your total weight, away to the sides, then move it back again behind you. 10 extra kilos in your boat is an extra 10 kg you have to move away & then back again.

Every boat length that you travel.

For ever & ever.

Paddle 100 boat lengths, thats an extra tonne of water you moved.

In a 4M kayak, every Km you paddle, each extra 10kg = an *extra* 2.5 tonnes of water that you moved away & back again.

that's quite aside from the extra strains & opportunity to hurt yourself getting it on & off the car.

Would you (for pleasure) sit a 10KG weight on some ball bearings & roll it about 150mm back & forth hour after hour ?

If you're building it for the exercise & don't care about re-sale, go heavy.
If you're building it for pleasure, build it light as you reasonably can.

cheers
AJ

[Chikoroll]

cheers for that

i will see if i can hunt down a piece of paulownia nearby and match it to the same size as my spanish cedar and see what the weight difference feels like - the cedar i have, i can pick up the entire pack by myself under 1 arm

or can anyone put a 1metre x50x50 onto a set of scales and tell me how much it weighs?
cheers

[whitewood]

The cubic weight of Paulownia is about 290 kg. That is a fact. Your method of weight comparision is not going to supply enough information for you to make a realistic assessment. Given that the samples may be RS or dressed, the error factor in kitchen scales and the fact that I don't have a short piece of 50 x 50 to waste I don't want to go there.
I do have short scrap pieces of othere sizes of RS Paulownia in 25mm and would be prepared to weigh a specified amount - for what it would achieve.
Why not weigh some other timbers you have that have a similar weight differential and compare the result. It chould give you a reasonable basis for comparision.

I

[anewhouse]

I just weighed a couple of pieces of Paulownia left over from my last kayak.
3.58 metres x 50mm x 19mm=0.0034
My kitchen scales say 965 grams

That works out to 283.8 per cubic metre which is remarkable close to the figure John quoted.

So if you do the maths, a 1 metre length of 50x50 would weigh about 700 grams.

The same amount of your Spanish Cedar should weigh about 1kg.

WRC should weigh 950 grams

Individual pieces of any of those timbers of course could be a bit denser or lighter, but that is what my pieces of Paulownia weigh.

[m2c1Iw]

Chikoroll,
This is an unashamed advertisement for Whitewood.

I have purchased some Paulownia for boat building and a more obliging supplier you will not find.

Contact John he will steer you in the right direction.

Regards
Mike

[Chikoroll]

good idea, i will take a cut of all that i have and cut it to the same sizes- probably a 40x40 x200 (make it up to that if the boards are too small)

btw, does this test help at all (i don't think it would, but it shows the buoyancy)- i put a piece of 100x100x100 into water, when it settled 5mm's was underwater 95mm's above water

whitewood, if it's alright by you, i'll go for a drive down there in a few weeks on a weekend and do a true comparison between the 2- weight, strength, how interesting it is, buoyancy, etc...

[whitewood]

Chikoroll,

My web site states visitors are welcome. I trade any days of the week so weekends are usually not a problem. For contact details email me [email protected] to get directions and to make sure I am available.

[Boatmik]

Howdy Chikoroll, You can do the same test more accurately by..

Weighing the wood in grams = WEIGHT

Then measuring the block in centimetres - length and width and thickness - multiply them together to get the VOLUME

Then Divide the WEIGHT by the VOLUME and that gives you the DENSITY

If you multiply that by 100 you will find out how much of a percentagewill be underwater. The remaining percentage will be above (ie BUOYANCY)

Also different woods have different strengths more or less according to their DENSITY. So if a timber is twice as DENSE then it will roughly have twice the strength, twice the resistance to denting etc.

Best wishes
Michael

[anewhouse]

If you are interested in the appearance, then you probably want to know what it looks like with a covering of glass and epoxy.

I'm not sure if John has such samples available, but this photo might give you an idea.

I reckon it looks a lot like Tasmanian Oak both before and after coating with epoxy.

http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/5091/allanms3.jpg (http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/5091/allanms3.jpg)

[Boatmik]

Did I put the link to the whole building process of a Paulownia canoe.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2108/1520147323_65d5b03c14.jpg

through to

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2284/1870328500_26f82760cf.jpg

I have written about all the steps on this photo series. All these paulownia strip planked canoe taken at the Duckflat Spring school (http://www.flickr.com/photos/boatmik/sets/72157603490801279/) over 10days - they did come back about two weeks later for two days more work.

About 70 photos with reasonably detailed comments

Best wishes
Michael

[Chikoroll]

that's a nice looking kayak anewhouse, is that aussie red cedar and paulownia?

thanks for the link mik, that will come in very handy :)

[anewhouse]

Only the small diamonds in the strip up the middle of the deck are Australian red cedar.

The dark sheer strip is a fairly pale piece of American Redwood and the dark strips on the deck are darker pieces of the same timber. They were old, free skirting boards.

[Chikoroll]

for the trimming in mine, i will probably use veneered jarrah, walnut burl and quartercut american oak (1mm thick cuts)

i will add in a marquetry scene also (will think of the theme when i build it)

[Chikoroll]

using kayak foundry, anyone feel like posting up there opinions and any tips on designing a better kayak

what i am looking for is-
i weigh 80kilo's
roll-over stability,
able to carry about 15 kilo's (fishing rod, tackle box, water and food),
decent to paddle (i don't mind a bit of resistance)
handle choppy water

300mm feet
550mm lower leg to kneecap
600mm kneecap to seat
1100mm from heel to seat
260mm minimum kneecap and foot width
440mm wide butt



just had a play with kayak foundry, and this is my results, anyone feel like altering it to make it better?:2tsup:
http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/2/20/797870/no001.yak

how much space should i allow for entry/exit, and seating+feet supports?

[KJL38]

I don't know how to input the file you posted into KF so can't comment on your design, would it be possible for you to post a file like the ones in the attachments on the Blue Heron Forum? http://www.blueheronkayaks.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=2&sid=03f9b172d61908256d1f76c99f155520

A few questions about what you desire, I'm guessing you can't do an eskimo roll, do you intend to learn?

This determines whether you want a kayak you sit in or a kayak you wear. Assuming you won't be rolling and also assuming you wish to access the fishing gear while on the water I would recommend a large open cockpit in a flattish hull around 60-68 cm wide, 4-5m long with some flare above the waterline to give a dryer ride in chop. The wide flat hull will give increased stability and turning at the expense of speed. Flat hulls also tend to pound in large swells but I don't expect you will be using it in those conditions.

The amount of rocker determines maneuverability/tracking and this is very much a personal preference with the type of use also being a determining factor. Probably a medium amount of rocker would suit your needs. The shape of the keel line also determines the centre of lateral resistance which determines weather cocking/lee cocking. How strong are the winds you will paddle in? Most sea kayaks have the centre of lateral resistance slightly forward so that the kayak will tend to weathercock as the wind increases ie: turn into the wind. If you are not planning to paddle in strong winds and not planning on rolling you may wish to have a fairly high deck height to give a dryer ride.

Have you read John Winters articles on the shape of the canoe? http://www.greenval.com/jwinters.html
He is a naval architect and these short articles give a lot of information that is also applicable to kayaks.

Hope this helps.
Kelvin

[anewhouse]

I think Kayak Foundry is brilliant and easy to use. I have built two designs created with KF and they both perform just as planned.

There are a couple of obvious things.

While you are modifying the design, you need to ensure that the Design displacement stays about the same as as your target displacement. If you don't, the waterline will be in the wrong place and your drag figures will be meaningless. Do you know how to correct this?

The stern became a strange shape because you managed to get the square dot that is normally at the tip in a strange place. The Exaggerate function is very useful for detecting places where the shape is odd or not as smooth as it should be. Right click in the window to get that function.

A rounded hull is less stable than some other shapes.

500mm waterline width is extremely narrow for a kayak if you want to fish from it. I have caught good size flathead from a kayak that width, but that was on a lake and the kayak had a much flatter, shallow V bottom so was much more stable than your design.

The cockpit you chose would force you to sit on the rear deck to get in. With a longer cockpit you could sit on the seat and then put your legs in.

I have made some the changes I have mentioned and attached the new version, but I suggest that if your are planning on fishing from the kayak, you need much more stability and that even with my modifications it needs further major changes.

Keep working on it. With persistence, I'm sure you will get what you want.


http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/7/16/2005444/no002.yak

[anewhouse]

Something else that worries me a bit (assuming I have the right impression about where and how you intend to use this kayak) is that you seem to have gone all out for low drag and speed to the extent that the kayak will be very unstable.

Stability is more complex than just making it wide to get stability.

For example do you know why this version

http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/7/16/2005444/no003.yak

is much more stable than version no002, even though it is the same width?

Forgive me if you already knew all this and are sure you want something that is more suited to racing than comfortable cruising. I may be misreading the situation. I am trying to be helpful, but I realise what I have written may sound patronising. It is not my intention.

[Chikoroll]

don't stress about posting up your opinions, critisism and whatnot, everything is helpful, if it sucks, please tell me, i have no idea on boat stability, or the effects of what it all does :2tsup: i'm just good with the actual construction side of things :U

no, i don't know how to roll the kayak, i do want to learn ;) hopefully youtube and making a fool of myself can help with that though :D

the target is an all-rounder, mostly it will be used paddling around the lake in forest lake (after work), fishing on the weekends, extra weight and drag won't bother me too much, just means more muscle will be built up- but i do want it to not be compromised too much when i take it into the rougher stuff- like 2 foot choppy waves, and paddling against strong river mouth currents- as i won't be doing this too often, i won't need to accommodate too much for it

for the fishing rods, i was thinking of just attaching some cradles (like raised wings) on the side of the kayak (or some alloy plates to hold these attachments so i can put them in the storage bin when not in use)

[Boatmik]

Howdy,

One Idea ... when I move into a new area of design that I am not super familiar with I often spend a period looking at existing designs and do some sketches on paper or on the computer.

Just to get a feeling for different rockers and different cross sections. Nothing too precise.

If it is to design a paddle or an oar ... I will look at modern manufactured designs and also look at traditional approaches.

I can't look at the files you have created (and don't want to download another piece of software I don't need) but a general mistake that first time designers make is almost always to make the boats too "arrow like" ... their feeling is that pointier is faster and cooler looking.

This is perhaps the biggest flaw you see looking throught Yachting magazines and they are introducing some "new designer" who has a beautifully rendered image of a 60' supercool boat that has not been built yet.

Pardon the editorialising ... but I would much rather see 10 or 15ft boat that the person has actually designed and BUILT - like you are planning to do. For someone who is wanting to design boats for other people it is even better if the person then uses it in company with other boats and finds out what it can really do - rather than smile in splendid isolation.

Back to the point.

If I can find out some of the technical specifications of a range of well respected designs that do what I want then I will write down the properties of the different models. Length, beam etc and more technical specifications like prismatic co-efficient (overall and maybe for the bow and stern individually) , wetted surface and maybe the metacentric height (not commonly available - it is a stability measure - but if you have a bunch of existing boats provided with your software then it might be possible to extract these numbers.)

Then after collecting this information I then sit down in front of the computer and start drawing - trying first to hit the curves then as it looks more boatlike I start checking the numbers. After that I alternate between lines and numbers until it all starts falling into place trying to hit the numbers and hit the curves that you have in your head by now.

Look at your paper sketches and collected material if you have a specific question ... but don't focus on them too much.

One thing I would avoid is choosing one design that you like and trying to clone it... you will learn nothing at all and you won't bring anything new into the world - it is like being a proud Holden, Ford or Renault owner - they might be nice - but really, they are the same as everyone elses'. And cloning is a bit like stealing anyhow - you should pay the girl/guy for the plan if it is that important to you.

By the way ... I do talk about the design process of the Rowboat plan (http://www.storerboatplans.com/Rowboat/Rowboat.html) on my website

Best wishes
Michael Storer

[anewhouse]

The danger with trying to create an all-rounder is that I have seen attempts to do that where the kayak finished up not doing anything particularly well.

A kayak which is wide enough to be very stable will be very difficult to roll and of course will probably be significantly slower than one which is narrow enough that you have to concentrate all the time to stay upright. Your original design would probably be easy to roll, provided you were a snug fit in the cockpit, but it would be downright dangerous to try to fish from it.

However it is possible to create a design that is pretty good for a number of applications, so don't be put off trying to do it.

I would recommend that you do a lot of research to get an idea about the dimensions and shapes that seem to work best in various situations. There are an enormous number of sites with that sort of information written by people with a lot more experience than me. I can recommend some sites that I have found very useful if you have trouble finding the good ones.

I like the idea of having a kayak that is reasonable efficient. I paddle a lot with a group of people who are mostly retired. We normally paddle at quite a leisurely pace because some of them have very short sit-on-top plastic kayaks. I have noticed that even though they start by insisting that they are quite happy with their plastic tubs, it normally only takes one experience of having to paddle against the wind and tide at the end of a long day to realise that they would enjoy themselves more in something where they didn't have to paddle flat out just to keep up. In the last year at least two of them have immediately swapped their tupperware SOT for a Mirage sea kayak after one such experience.

I think you have the length about right. Anything between 4.5 and 5.5 metres would probably be OK.

If the bottom was a shallow V, it would be much more stable than your original rounded shape. The drag would increase very slightly.

The very fine bow and stern means that only a small part of the length of your kayak is close to the maximum width. If the bow and stern get wider closer to the ends, in other words are blunter, then much more of the length of the kayak is fairly wide. That can make an enormous difference to the stability. Once again there will be a slight increase in drag.

That is why my version 3 of your design is much more stable than version 2. The only thing changed was how fine the bow and stern were. It is quite easy to make a 500mm wide kayak more stable than a 550mm wide kayak.

Most of your other dimension look OK at present. A higher bow will probably give a drier ride in choppy water, but it will catch the wind more. Greater volume will give you more storage space, but will also mean that side winds affect the kayak more as well as making it heavier and more expensive to build.

I like a cockpit that is about 760mm long and I only need about 390 mm width to fit my hips, but I fit thigh braces to create a keyhole shape. That lets be get in and out the easy way, backside in first and then legs but still allows me to lock myself in firmly when necessary.

You might notice that when I modifies your design, I had the CLA just a bit behind the LCB and the greatest draft close to the same point. That seems to be regarded as desirable.

You make the point that you won't often need to paddle against the current and against the wind so you suggest that you don't need to build something that will be especially good at that. The problem is that such a situation is potentially a dangerous or desperate one where you need all the help you can get, so even though you might only do that once or twice a year, it's a bit like saying that in your car you only brake really hard once or twice a year, so it isn't very important to have good brakes.

However it is possible to come up with a design that sacrifices very little in that area, so it needn't be a problem. I just wanted to make the point that the number of times you might need the kayak to have a particular characteristic is not necessarily a good guide to how much attention you should pay to that feature in the design.

I've raved on for long enough for one post. I really enjoyed developing the design of my wife's and my kayaks and would like your experience to be equally rewarding. Keep at it.

Let me know if you need help finding some good articles and sources of ideas.

[anewhouse]

I would like to endorse much of what Boatmik has said.

It might not have been your intention to create a cool looking kayak, but it is certainly true that your original design, as I have already said, is much too sleek for its intended use.

You already knows this,Chicoroll, but for the benefit of others who might be contemplating designing their first kayak, the program Kayak Foundry is a very good tool.

It is free. A new design starts with a complete kayak design already on the page. It is easy to modify that design to achieve something close to the design you have in mind or scribbled on a scrap of paper. It also tend to limit how ridiculous a shape you can create.

I know there are much more powerful design programs available, but I have yet to see a free one or a demo of a commercial one that gets you off to a flying start the way Kayak Foundry does. The ones that started with a blank page just seemed too daunting and seemed a bit like using a sledge hammer to crack a nut.

It is available from here if anyone is interested.
http://www.blueheronkayaks.com/kayak/index.html

While Boatmik makes a very valid point about a simple boat actually completed being better than a flash design that never gets built, I think a program like this offers a good excuse to design a few kayaks that might never get built.

First, it is so quick and easy.
Second, I found it a very good way to learn a lot about kayak design. I discovered for example that all other things being equal (which of course they never are), a 5.4 metre kayak is likely have more drag than a 4.5 metre kayak below about 4.5 knots.
Third, it gave me the stimulus to do a lot of research to try to learn how some of my designs might work or conversely, having read about how certain features are supposed to affect a kayak's performance, to then try to create a design that combined those features in a way that would produce a kayak ideally suited for a particular purpose.

[anewhouse]

Just in case someone is interested in following this conversation, this was Chikoroll's original design.


http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/2425/k1pe0.png

This is my suggestion about a few small steps in the right direction while keeping the original appearance.

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/5161/k4ot2.png (http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/5161/k4ot2.png)

[damian]

I've been reading this with great interest. Very interesting.

I have a question if I may. I assume the area forward of the cockpit is higher to accomodate the legs. Why is the area rearwards so low ? Is it just to reduce skin area ?

I know something about sail boats and rowboats but really nothing about kayaks.

Sorry to intervene.

[KJL38]

Thanks Anewhouse for posting those plans. Could someone tell me how to view the files that have been posted in Kayak Foundry? I downloaded KF some time ago but haven't played with it much.

I would recomend taking the changes anewhouse made and exagerate them a little more. This would give you a shape similar to the NDK Explorer which is one of the most forgiving rough water kayaks ever made. http://www.seakayakinguk.com/kayaks/range/explorer.html

With regard to the hull cross section a shallow V is better for a sea kayak than a U shape. Although it has a little more drag the V makes edgeing much easier which is the key to turning. More V towards the ends will give a softer ride in chop and some flare above the waterline gives a softer landing when dropping off the backs of swells as well as a dryer ride. Flare above the waterline also helps with rolling.

Chines that are only slightly rounded will give better stability and a more definite feeling of when you are up beyond the point of no return when coming up from a roll.

I agree with anewhouse about the cockpit, a keyhole is much easier to use. I'm the same height, weight etc as you except for smaller feet. The size cockpit that anewhouse suggested should allow you to sit down first and bring your legs in afterwards which makes launching and landing in tricky situations much easier. The suggested cockpit will also allow you to use an off the shelf spraydeck instead of having one custom made. You could even make the openning a little longer, the largest on the kayaks I own is 83cm internal, 92 cm external on a whitewater kayak. If you look at the explorer I linked to above you can see how thigh braces are incorporated into the cockpit, this allows you to lock yourself in which is essential for rolling.

Hope this helps:)
Kelvin

[KJL38]

Damien, the low rear deck reduces windage in the back half of the kayak which reduces weathercocking and makes lay back rolls easier.

Kelvin

[anewhouse]

I've been reading this with great interest. Very interesting.

I have a question if I may. I assume the area forward of the cockpit is higher to accomodate the legs. Why is the area rearwards so low ? Is it just to reduce skin area ?

I know something about sail boats and rowboats but really nothing about kayaks.

Sorry to intervene.
Don't apologise. Feel free to join in. This isn't a private conversation. :U

The rear deck is almost always lower.

It tilts the cockpit to make entry and exit (or should that be egress) easier. Anyway the tilt makes it easier to get in and out.

It also makes it much easier to execute an Eskimo roll because it allows you to lie back to keep your centre of gravity much closer to the kayak than would be the case if you sat upright.

It also helps reduce weathercocking, (turning into the wind).
Almost all kayaks weathercock. Some do it a little, some do it a lot. A small number don't and a tiny number of very badly designed ones leecock.
Having less height behind the paddler helps reduce that a little bit. Although of course a high bit right at the stern will have more effect than a high bit just behind the cockpit.

[anewhouse]

Thanks Anewhouse for posting those plans. Could someone tell me how to view the files that have been posted in Kayak Foundry? I downloaded KF some time ago but haven't played with it much.
...
...
..
Kelvin

The exact steps depend on the browser you are using, but in Firefox, you right click on the link and select Save Link As or Save Target As and save the file in a convenient place. If you save it in the Kayak Foundry directory, it means one less step when it is time to open the file.

Then you just open the file in Kayak Foundry in the usual way.

Let me know if you need more detail.

I like the look of the Explorer that you mentioned.

[damian]

Thank you for the replies, that all makes sense.

I don't ahve anything constructive to add so just for a change I'm keeping my typing fingers away :)

But I am reading with interest. I was never interested in paddlers, but have been thinking for a while that a canoe might be a nice thing, especially with a rig and a couple of outriggers :)

[b.o.a.t.]

don't stress about posting up your opinions, critisism and whatnot, everything is helpful, if it sucks, please tell me, i have no idea on boat stability, or the effects of what it all does :2tsup: i'm just good with the actual construction side of things :U



G'day Chiko
I take it you particularly want to do strip boat ? It occurs to me that CLC's Mill Creek
15 ticks most of your boxes, but is a plywood boat. Has a large open cockpit
so getting in & out is easy, as is stowage of rods & etc. The couple of people I know
have or have had them found them a forgiving stable fishing platform, easy to paddle, &
reasonably dry in a chop. I wouldn't regard them as an open water boat, although a
chap named Fenger toured the Carribean Islands in something vaguely similar back in
1911. Down-side is that it won't come up dry even if you do learn to roll up.

As far as rod holders go, there are commercial rotatable/angle-able ones available
costing an arm & just a couple of toes. In previous boats, I have just let a piece of
40mm PVC water pipe in through the deck, & sealed the base to the floor. Needs to
go in up close to a bulkhead so that it isn't carrying any compression loads between
deck & floor. Note that sticking even a light weight up in the air affects the stability &
roll-rate of the boat. Enough to feel uncomforable until used to it.

Agree with MIK about pointy ends & stability. My current boat has fine ends & is a bit
twitchy, My son hates it. My previous boat, same overall length & beam has a wider
waterline beam & fuller ends. Everone who paddles it loves it. As you can see from the
pic below, there's not a huge difference in cross-section for this big difference in behaviour.
But carry that extra fore & aft for most of the length & those lots of little bits add up.

cheers
AJ

[anewhouse]

Is there a Mill Creek 15? I had seen the 13, but that is really too small for a grown man.

The Mill Creek is a proven, popular design and would make a good fishing platform. I'm sure it would be exactly what some people need.

However some people would consider that it is far wider than is necessary even for fishing. It is possible to have something stable enough for fishing that is closer to 24" than 29".

I have already said that 13 feet is too short for a full size adult, but a small adult whose fishing ground was only a few hundred metres from his launching point would probably disagree with me especially when he had to lift it up onto the roof racks of his 4WD.

To illustrate why some people would prefer a longer, slightly narrower kayak, have a look at these drag figures.

They are produced by Kayak Foundry and it has taken me longer to copy them and type them than it did to produce three almost designs, but with one at 13' x29", one at 15'x29" and one at 15'x24".

Of course these figures are not 100% accurate, but they give a bit of an idea of the difference.

Sorry about all the imperial measurements and the primitive layout.
Knots _____ 2.5_____ 3_____ 3.5_____ 4_______4.5
13' x29" ____1.4_____ 2_____ 2.9_____ 4.25___ _ 6
15'x29" _____1.5_____ 2_____ 2.8_____ 3.9____ _5.4
15'x24" _____1.3_____1.8____ 2.5______3.5_____ 4.9

They suggest that at slow cruising speed 2.5 knots or 4.6kmh the extra length doesn't help, but reduced width does.
At 4 knots or 7.4kmh, the longer kayak is significantly better and even more so at 4.5 knots or 8.3kmh. Trust me you are unlikely to get above that speed for more than a few metres, but if you did the benefit of the extra length would increase.
Another way of looking at the difference is that it takes about the same effort to paddle the slowest kayak at 4 knots as the fastest one at 4.5 knots. That is a big difference.

However getting obsessed about top speed isn't a particularly good idea. If you are going to paddle all day at 3 knots, there isn't much to pick between them and it is almost irrelevant that you could paddle the narrower 15' kayak about half a knot faster flat out. I say almost irrelevant because the time you really appreciate that extra bit of speed is when you find yourself having to paddle against a current that is a bit stronger than you thought.

As far as I am concerned, a more efficient kayak is not really about top speed. It is about getting wherever I am going with a bit less effort.

Just to make sure I haven't given the wrong idea, I am not criticising the Mill Creek. It is a great design for certain applications. I as just trying to make the point that for some applications, a different design would be better. For some applications I am sure that some people would find my kayak pretty useless, in spite of the fact that it does just what I want it to do.

[Chikoroll]

good to see the info flowing, really good read

i am doing a fair bit of looking into other designs
-strip built is the only option to me, for me it is not only having it built, but the fun of building it, the cost of the timber is almost non-existant, i might get a few metres of paulownia, but i have the rest in spanish cedar

regarding to the pic boat attached, would it help if i ballooned it a bit where the angles change-whether it be a thicker strip to grind and sand to shape, or say 5 strips to balloon it? (not a fan of distinct angle changes)

with the rod handles, what i was meaning was keeping everything balanced- mirror every addon that i attach, say i put a rod handle and drink holder on one side, it would have to be balanced out with the same or similar weight/s on the other (remembering the leverage forces)- the attachments not on the sides when not in use

for length, i don't want to go any larger than 5.1metres, that is already almost half a metre longer than my vehicle (Jackaroo)
hmm...about that, when straping it to the roof and in strong cross winds at highway speeds, should i also bolt on a front tradesmen rack to meetup with the roofracks as an additional brace? or will the 3 racks be enough? (1 above the driver and front passenger, 1 above passengers, 1 above cargo area)

[b.o.a.t.]

G'day anewhouse

firstly, I'm 6'2", 100+kgs
My current & last boats are 12', & most of my kayaking was grade 1 & 2 whitewater in
slalom boats - 3.6M x 600mm (12ft x 2ft) or polo bats around 8ft long. I modified
one of those slalom boats for fishing in Port Philip Bay... everything, including a
very short rod was velcroed or strapped to the deck. Never caught anything, but had
many cramped hours off Elwood & St Kilda drowning worms. When that got too boring or
painful, I'd go & 'play' in the chop break (not really a surf break) along the beach.

In fact, I have only ever once paddled a kayak longer than 13' - a wonderfully
comfortable but heavy plastic sea kayak double - about 18ft x 30".

So I'd argue a short boat can be entirely useable by a grown man, if not an especially
grown-up one !!

You are correct - there is no Mill Ck 15. Just a 13 & a 16.5 My bad. And CLC's
over-sight. There should be one! (I thought there used to be one, but maybe I'm
getting confused with MIK's Eurekas.)

Agree that a longer boat on any cross-section will be more stable, require less
concentration, cruise faster, & be faster when you need to be. (Unless the original
is an utter pig that needs burning.)

Agree that a well-designed 24" wide boat *can* be more stable than a badly designed 29"
one. Have done it myself as above in two 24" boats. Suspect that the Mill Ck 13 is not
that badly designed 29" boat, although I object to the hard sheer - I like a dropped
sheer panel for a narrower effective paddling width.

The Mill Creek thought was actually sparked by the combination of Kevin's (KJL38)
comments in posting #30 about ease of use, combined with Chikoroll's planned useage
in #33, plus Chiko has indicated that he is not a particularly experienced paddler.
MC13 is particularly forgiving of less-than-slick entry & exit.
Then toss in the fact that I am always looking for short-cuts.... on a completely
clean sheet of paper, MC13 would be a strong contender for the role.

However, it is all a bit hypothetical. Chiko has his heart set on a strip boat, which Mill
Creek is not.

cheers
AJ

[anewhouse]

I'd support several of your comments.

Yes, CLC should have a MC15 given the popularity and success of their MC13.

A grown man certainly can use a kayak less than 15' but it depends what he uses it for.

I think I was trying to argue that for the sort of use I imagined Chikoroll putting his kayak to, less than 15' would begin to have some disadvantages.

I have a 13'6" kayak, but that is a whitewater kayak, designed to negotiate rapids. In fact in about 1969 it was a state of the art slalom kayak. I find it good to fish from because of its stability, but tedious to paddle any distance on flat water and a beginner would find it very difficult to keep going straight.

I also have a 10'6" kayak which is even slower. It is a surfyak. Great fun in the surf, but not much good for anything else.

I can understand Chikoroll's fascination with the idea of building a stripper. There is just so much flexibility possible in the design and the potential for some very creative inlay or patterns. I have built four strippers and think it is most unlikely that I would ever build a S&G even though I know there are some brilliant, successful S&G designs out there.

[b.o.a.t.]

I think I was trying to argue that for the sort of use I imagined Chikoroll putting his kayak to, less than 15' would begin to have some disadvantages.


Overall I agree. That's why I suggested MC15. But there isn't one. So...



I have a 13'6" kayak, but that is a whitewater kayak, designed to negotiate rapids. In fact in about 1969 it was a state of the art slalom kayak. I find it good to fish from because of its stability, but tedious to paddle any distance on flat water and a beginner would find it very difficult to keep going straight.


what sort is it? Olymp 4 ?
Had an Olymp 6 for a while. Heart-breaking to paddle in a straight line. Ended up
giving it away & using my Equipe for everything. Including fishing in Pt. Philip Bay.

Thinking about it, despite building about a dozen of them, I never measured a slalom
boat. Was told they are 12ft long (3.6M). Is this not correct? Are they actually 4M ?

Strip boats *are* beautiful. Maybe, one day...

cheers
AJ

[anewhouse]

Would you believe I have owned those two kayaks since 1975 and I can't remember ever running a tape measure over them? For 33 years I have been quoting the lengths in my previous post.

I just checked with the tape measure. It was a bit awkward because of the place they are stored, but I think the Lettman is somewhere around 3.9 metres, which is about 13 feet. The surfyak looks more like 3 metres or 10 feet.

Tho photo isn't mine, but it definitely is the same. Mine is in much worse shape than this one, but still quite usable. Because I borrowed the mould in 1975 and was told it was 1969 Lettman Olymp and I just accepted that. Perhaps you can tell me exactly which model it is. I had a lot of fun in it in places like the rapids at Childowlah on the Murrumbidgee.

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/6267/lettmanoe6.png

[b.o.a.t.]

Sorry, can't tell for sure. It's over 25 years since I saw the two boats side-by-side.
What I can remember is that the ribs running fore & aft from the knee indents were
deeper & sharper in the 4 than the 6. The nose & tail were broader & flatter in the 6.
I suspect the photo is a 6.

Of course, it could also be another case of being told wrong info, just like the length... :-
What I was told were two variants of Olymp may have been two different models of
Lettner - very similar boats so probably same designer. No internet in 1982 so couldn't google it !!

Have now got a week or two off work following minor surgery. Might have to have a play with
KF - figure out how to use it. Am used to Hulls which operates in much the same way I think.
Draw the shape, request calculations, tweak the shape & see what happens to the calcs,
refine the tweaks based on the change in calcs. Very simple graphics. But designs panels
only, not a rounded shape.

cheers

[KJL38]

Chikoroll,
Don't worry about the length of the boat in regards to cartopping it, I've driven thousands of km with kayaks of 5.4m and longer on a Nissan Micra. Just use saddles, commercial ones or make your own, and it should be fine.

b.o.a.t,
Slalom kayaks used to be 4m but they reduced the minimum length a few years ago so the Olymps would be 4m.
My early suggestion about a wider kayak was based on my erroneous assumption that chiko wouldn't be rolling it. As he intends to learn I think somewhere around 55cm should give the right balance of ease of rolling and stability for fishing. For someone not intending to roll and using it as Chikoroll plans to I think a Rob Roy style kayak would be ideal. There is a beautiful woodstrip one by Chuck Carpenter third from the bottom of this page. http://www.newfound.com/launch_canoe.htm

Kelvin

[b.o.a.t.]

For someone not intending to roll and using it as Chikoroll plans to I think a Rob Roy style kayak would be ideal. There is a beautiful woodstrip one by Chuck Carpenter third from the bottom of this page. http://www.newfound.com/launch_canoe.htm

Kelvin

That is n.i.c.e. :2tsup:

Only trouble with these gorgeous clear finished strippers...
I'd be scared to use one in case I scratched it. As I certainly would because for me,
the magic of boating is about the land/water interface rather than the open ocean.
One tries not to interface too closely, but mistakes get made... :doh:

Thanks for the info about slalom boat length too Kevin. Didn't matter while just pulling
'em out of the mould and paddling (& sometimes breaking) 'em. But it's nice to know.

cheers
AJ

[Boatmik]

Howdy AJ,

Strippers are pretty durable and not that hard to repair.

Build it
Use it

Let other people worry about the possibility of scratching something beautiful.

Personally I love scratches and visible (but neatly executed) repairs!

[prozac]

Chickoroll, I would not get hung up on modifying a boat at this stage. It is like trying to redesign the wheel. Choose a good widely accepted design, build it as best you can and with the lighter timbers available. Paddle it, muck around in it, fish in it until you know what you like and don't like about it.

By now others seeing you out on the water and in the carpark are commenting what a nice looking boat you have and someone will want to buy it IF it is light enough. Now if you are really not happy with the design and think that some modifications may improve your enjoyment of the boat then sell it to one of these people and build another. You will not loose money on the cost of material and your labour is part of the enjoyment. Any profit over this is a bonus.

Keep it light and enjoyable, no one wants to paddle a tub.

prozac

[Chikoroll]

cheers mate, i think i will go for the design posted up (unless someone can point flaws in it)
with the next one i will do as you said and modify it somewhat to suit my needs

just a heads up about where i am at with this- just putting all suitable sized trimming offcuts aside - timbers for the decoration so far are blackbean, Jarrah, American Oak, American Cherry and Aussie Red Cedar (will most likely cut these to 1 or 2mm thick and router a groove for them into the kayak to keep weight down)


with the hull, does it need to built with full-length strips, or can it be multiple lengths joined together?

[anewhouse]

About the only full length strips in my kayaks are the first one on each side that goes on the sheer line. I find scarfing strips is easier than trying to handle a 5 or 6 metre long strip of timber. In fact my last 5 metre kayak was built from 1.8 metre long strips. The one before that was 4.5 metres long and built from 2.4 metre strips. Some people use full length strips. Given the choice, I would use shorter strips.

[TK1]

Hi all,

Great thread, which I've been following with interest.

There is (or was) a Mill Creek 15' version - lines are in (from memory) Chris' book "Stitch and Glue Boatbuilding" which give a good overview of the mill Creeks. However, in the book he states the 15' is less stable than the 13 and not as parctical (in the sense of using it as a double) as the 16.5, so he doesn't push it.

Some have been built though, and I'm sure CLC would sell the plans if they still have them (not listed on the site but may be worth an email, they're very friendly).

I don't have a Mill Creek, but it's on the list as a light, practical boat for fishing, and that's what a lot of people use them for. So worth a look.

Also have alook at David Payne's sea kayaks (www.payneyachts.com) - I am building his TK and K1 boats and they're great, and I've heard his sea kayaks are good. He includes a strip-built one in his range.

I've never heard a bad thing about Guillemots though.

The simple answer is to just build multiple kayaks :rolleyes: one for fishing, one for speed and rolling, one for cruising...and so on.

Good luck with the build.

Oh, I'm also using Paulownia inthe TK1 - great to work with and really light. Will shave a kg or two off the total weight compared to WRC (on a ply boat).

Regards,
Darren

[b.o.a.t.]

There is (or was) a Mill Creek 15' version - lines are in (from memory) Chris' book "Stitch and Glue Boatbuilding" which give a good overview of the mill Creeks. However, in the book he states the 15' is less stable than the 13 and not as parctical (in the sense of using it as a double) as the 16.5, so he doesn't push it.



THANKYOU DARREN !!!!!!!
For a while there I thought I was losing my marbles.
Well, more of them than I can account for as missing anyway. :U
cheers
AJ

[prozac]

Chickoroll, if you were to contact the supplier of the plans for the boat you were considering and asked their opinion I think it would at least narrow down your choices to 2 or 3 models. You will want to provide the proposed purpose of use, whether rough or smooth water, and don't forget to indicate your level of paddling experience plus your height and weight.

I did this with Guillemot and received a prompt response from Nick Schade with 2 recommendations based on my criteria and importantly one non-recommendation based on difficulty of build.

prozac

[TK1]

Hi chickoroll,

Definitely do what Prozac says, that's how I got my choices narrowed down and all plans suppliers are happy to help out.

A couple of DIY options are to look at CLC's website (www.clcboats.com), click on "product catalogue" link and then choose a style of boat, and get to the "compare designs" link. Choose a few, and it gives you dimensions, and nifty dials showing speed, stability, etc comparisons.

Nick's Guillemot site does the same, but in a table (his boats are on CLC too, so a good comparison to S&G designs).

At the end of the day. the best advice I can give is to narrow it down, buy a plan and get building! I procrastinated over dozens of kayak and small boat plans for a couple of years before coming back to the Chesapeake 17 on the basis it was (a) a good all-rounder; (b) it wouldn't be my last build, but a good start; and (c) I just had to get going or I'd never have a kayak.

So get building and whilst you might not have the ultimate, ideal boat, at least you'll have one to paddle and be inspired to make the next one.

Regards,
Darren

[Chikoroll]

righto, it's almost time to start this project

i have all the timber needed
including a hell of a lot of strips of jarrah, american oak, blackbean and black wattle, which i will cut down to veneer thicknesses to limit their weight factor,
the base timber will be spanish cedar- sorry whitewood, but i don't have the spare cash at the moment

the glue being used is WestSystem 105 Epoxy resin with 206 slow hardener

very nice considering they guarantee it will work with the fibreglass sheeting

[whitewood]

" I have all the timber needed
including a hell of a lot of strips of jarrah, american oak, blackbean and black wattle, which i will cut down to veneer thicknesses to limit their weight factor,
the base timber will be spanish cedar- sorry whitewood, but i don't have the spare cash at the moment"

No worries. Do what is best for you. Hope it turns out OK and your happy with the result.

[Boatmik]

righto, it's almost time to start this project

i have all the timber needed
including a hell of a lot of strips of jarrah, american oak, blackbean and black wattle, which i will cut down to veneer thicknesses to limit their weight factor,

Howdy chikoroll,

Getting into heavy swings and roundabouts territory with this decision unless I am misunderstanding your purpose.

If it is a first time project stick with the standard thicknesses or pretty close. They are standard for a reason ... because it makes the building process reliable and relatively troublefree.

An odd bit of veneer here and there won't hurt anything but if you are substantially building of the heavier timbers you mention you will possibly be disappointed with the result.

Build the boat as close to standard as you can afford and incorporate a little bit of the heavier timbers in the detail.

Best wishes
Michael

[Chikoroll]

ah, should have mentioned, the veneered strips will be inlayed after construction, when i sketch out the purdy design (some strips will be in the construction, but not alot, trimmer and 1.5mm depth will do nicely for the inlays.... i'll toss up whether to do some hardcore marquetry when the time comes

the strips of american oak, american cherry and jarrah are currently @ around 2m x20x8 (offcuts) and individual strips are weighing in at 20grams, so hardly noticable, when you consider they will be 1.5mm's thick, they will be slightly over 2 grams each... :P that won't put me into a puff

[Boatmik]

Ah .... thought that as a possiblity ... sounds MUCH better! Will look classy too.

Best wishes
MIK

[TK1]

Chickoroll,

Good luck and ensure you post lots of progresspics.

So if I understand correctly, you'll be using one thickness of strips for the 'base layer' to build up the kayak, then using veneers of the other woods (at 1.5mm thick) for the inlaid design?

What did you decide on for the main/base wood? And how thick will these strips be? More than 1.5mm I guess...

Just interested in your process as I'm about to start mine. I'm using 3.5mm thick strips of western red cedar - a bit thin, but that's what I have, and I won't be basjing it around much.

Do you have pics of the final design you worked out? I went back through the posts but couldn't see one?

Regards,
Darren

[Chikoroll]

there is a design posted up (in that kayak builder program thingy) a few pages back

i'm using 6mm thick spanish cedar, in 20mm strips
length is whatever i can get out of them (avoiding knots)
the joins in the length will have a 30mm overlap section to guarantee an excellent joint
the joins from each strip will be 6mm bead and groove

i will cut up 300 strips - no idea if that is enough, but i will make a router table and set it up, then never adjust it again (just 4 beams of the spanish cedar- still 160 beams remaining)

the veneer work will be inlayed with a freehand design using the trimmer with a straight cut bit in it

rough idea of how to do it...:

1. make the router & trimmer table, (i have 1x 1/2" router bit for the cove? half, and 1x 1/4" trimmer bit for the bead half), hence making it a dual carrier table), the sections of the cutters means the router will be mounted below, but the trimmer will be mounted on the fence, this will allow a single pass, attached is a rough sketch of the 2 router/trimmer bits, they match up perfectly and are @ 6mm's (the picture will give you an idea of why i am setting it up this way)

bonus of this method rather than using the spindle moulder, is i get a router table also
...this won't be an option if you don't have the machinery to spare...keep an eye on ebay

2. make the centre-beam from several pieces of 100x16mm chipboard (must be rigid)
3. make the shaping templates, and tressels/saw horses
4. cut all the strips to length, avoiding all defects
5. bead and cove the strips, 40 strip intervals to avoid the
6. start layering them on, mixing enough glue, but not too much - what's the best clamping method? nailed to the templates, then masking taped down in the spacings and then slice the tape out of the groove?.... but then how would i get it off the templates... and it leaves ugly nail holes...hmmm...any suggestions?
7. highly dilute some PVA and wipe it onto some butchers paper, wait until tacky, then layer the butchers paper onto the outside carcass
8. sketch on the designs
9. trim it out
10. sand off the paper
11. lay in the inlays
12. sand it up
13. lay on the fibreglass sheeting and spread on the westsystem evenly
14. apply another coating of the westsystem
15. attach all the extra's
16. brag, gloat, and then swear as it sinks in the test drive :C


7.

[Chikoroll]

just had a look back in the sketches, and noticed, the link is dead....so here's a fresh copy

it's the one posted up by anewhouse,

[TK1]

Sounds like a plan, Chickoroll.

Sequence of building seems fine, pretty much how I'm doing mine following Nick Schade's guidelines. Love the idea of the double router table, I'd always thought about something like this to do bead & cove at once. Let us know how it goes.

As for clamping strips on, there's a few different ideas/opinions. Nick Schade (Guillemot) uses a staple gun, as it's faster and doesn't mean leaving each strip to dry before removing clamps. Holes are tiny and aren't really noticeable from more than a few feet away. Apparently quickly hitting them with a steam iron swells the wood so they almost close up.

Fishing line is another option - it was explained in an issue of Wooden Boat a little while back. If you don't have it, let me know and I'll try to scan and email it to you. Basically attach line to the form, wrap around strip pulling in and against fixed strip, then cut off when dried.

Or just go slowly, clamping each one as you go. No holes, but often means only one strip per side per session.

Plans look good. Should paddle well from the shape/look of it. Thanks for re-posting.

What's the plan for the rest of the spanish cedar? Another 40 kayaks? :D

Good luck with it all!

Regards,
Darren

[Chikoroll]

did a stocktake on the decorative strips today....results.... i have a fair bit :2tsup:
none of the spanish cedar (the base material) is included yet

also started on the router table, a few more things need doing to it before it's finished (such as bearings, wingnuts for the trimmer backboard, and making the slide work)


now for the list of what i have stripped up:
minimum length of each inclueded strip are 1.5metres
Jarrah
20x15 ~ 20metres (40 metres@ 20x6)
12x6 ~ 90metres
Blackbean
10x6 ~ 110metres
20x4 ~ 10metres
22x10 ~ 25metres
American Oak
30x6 ~ 20metres
20x15 ~ 45metres (90metres@ 20x6)
2x20 ~ 30metres
American Cherry
20x6 ~ 20 metres
Wenge
10x6 ~ 10 metres
Rosewood
20x15 ~ 3 metres (6metres @ 20x6)

[Slavo]

Another option in keeping the strips together is to use the method shown by Rob Macks at Laughing Loon (http://www.laughingloon.com/shop.tips.html). He uses a hot glue gun as well as staples to build his kayaks.
Slavo

[Chikoroll]

righto, i havn't posted in a while, and i havn't done much either, got some other jobs on the go, and it's been too damn hot after work

attached is the final router jig, and how it joins up
there is 0.04mm's of variation... not enough to care about

[Chikoroll]

well...i have been cutting a ....few.... bits of timber into strips (i did cut...some... spares for the next project though- 11metre viking longboat, stripbuilt construction method

lengths are 2 metres for ease of handling, just make 100mm overlapping joints to eliminate weak points:2tsup:


this is what 8 hours of ripping gives you- at a guess, close to 800 strips:o

....just think... next comes the routering of every strip- now you will understand why i made the jig to cut both sides in a single pass

[Chikoroll]

moulded 100 strips in 30 minutes (stopped then to let the router and trimmer cool down)

pics of the router&trimmer jig setup

[Chikoroll]

moulded the rest of the strips today - total of 500 x 2 metre strips, 200 x 0.5-1.8m strips (varying sizes)

ordering the glue in the next time the rep comes in (westsystem ultra slow)
had a bit of a play with some sample glue... bloody hell it's good stuff, applies easily and soaks right into the timber (open grain), dries as hard as concrete- tried to break a strip of it i applied to a length of the cedar, struggled to break it, tried the hammer treatment, couldn't chip it


will get the chipboard for the templates in 2 weeks (have to replace the brakes on my fourby first)

[Fish Boy]

Nice progress Chikoroll:wink:, I have a quick question for anyone out there, I have a set of Guillemont plans and wish to build soon, but live in country South Oz and having trouble finding WRC already stripped /bead&coved 3/4 x1/4 (lazy by nature and do not wish to do this bit myself). Does anybody know who supplies around here ?:?

[anewhouse]

Nice progress Chikoroll:wink:, I have a quick question for anyone out there, I have a set of Guillemont plans and wish to build soon, but live in country South Oz and having trouble finding WRC already stripped /bead&coved 3/4 x1/4 (lazy by nature and do not wish to do this bit myself). Does anybody know who supplies around here ?:?

A lot of people don't use bead and cove, including some professional builders. They just put a bevel on the strips that need it. That is how I did my four.

It doesn't have to be WRC.

Paulownia, for example is lighter and good to work with.

[Fish Boy]

A lot of people don't use bead and cove, including some professional builders. They just put a bevel on the strips that need it. That is how I did my four.

It doesn't have to be WRC.

Paulownia, for example is lighter and good to work with.


Hi Anewhouse,
Paulownia is a bit to light(colour that is) for my personel taste, great timber to use apart from that.:D
As for the bead & cove, this will be my first kayak build and i intend to build it not using any staples etc in construction( just clamps,dowl&screw etc) and thought the bead & cove would help a lot with alignment issues and would be a little easier to fair. Would this be the case ? not having done it before I just don't know.
Thank's very much for the reply, :)

Any More progress Chickoroll ?

[Chikoroll]

nah, no progress just yet, gotta wait for my brakes to be repaired, then i will buy some sheets of ply for the forms and strongback

[TK1]

As for the bead & cove, this will be my first kayak build and i intend to build it not using any staples etc in construction( just clamps,dowl&screw etc) and thought the bead & cove would help a lot with alignment issues and would be a little easier to fair. Would this be the case ? not having done it before I just don't know.

Hi Fishboy (and sorry Chicko for the minor hijak...I'm watching the thread with great interest :)). I am about to start my first strip-built kayaks (Night Heron & Payne K1) and am using 3.5mm thick WRC strips. As they're thin I won't be bead & coving them, just bevelling the edge of each one. I plan to use bulldog clips and spring clamps between the forms to help with alignment - this will slow down the build a little, but with fast-drying yellow glue I should still get a few strips on each day this way. Hope to start next weekend after completing ripping the strips this weekend (they're wide venetian blind blanks I got, so each one will be cut into 2-3 strips).

Hope this idea helps.

Regards,
Darren

[Chikoroll]

hey, no problems with hijacks, it doesn't take much for anyone to sift through them, besides, it's all on topic anyway, if any questions or suggestions help others in the future, then it has been worth it

[anewhouse]

TK1, I have built mine without staples or bead and cove.
I found masking tape did an excellent job of keeping strips aligned between forms.

[Fish Boy]

I dont know how far you have got so far, but i have just finished my forms today, and have a tip that you may find helpful. After i cut out my paper forms I laminated them with A3 lamination sheets, ( some needed a bit extra added to the end before going through the laminator) for the bow & stern sections i used clear contact. Then I glued them to the ply sheet with Kwik grip laminex adhesive (after trimming off the eccess lamination material). This worked realy well,:2tsup: The forms are protected from glue etc, the layout side does not require tape now, no need to transfer lines etc, and with any luck the forms should stay in good condition in case of a second build.:U. I am not sure if this is common practice or not but it worked for me. Any stray glue cleaned off with turps. The contact is nowhere as good as the lamination material but it still did the job (keep the turps of it though).
Just need to find some timber now.
Hope this is of some benefit to you,
Cheers for now,
Fish Boy

[prozac]

Bill and Beth (Price?) have an excellent site detailing the various builds that Bill has done. There are so many photos and explanation that is is really a book in the amount of information that Bill covers. Check it out here - http://users.moscow.com/bprice/

[Chikoroll]

just thought i'd give a heads up, this project is not abandoned, just been too busy to do it.... life needs an extra day for the weekend:2tsup:

[Chikoroll]

Bought the fibreglass sheeting today, 200gms @ $10.56/metre x 1metre wide, 10 metres of it, from Volksglas fibreglass in slackscreek

Reasonable price?

i'm finally on holidays, and if all goes to plan, will get back to this project when i return from a trip to capeyork (the end of this month) ...assuming it isn't snowing down south... in which case i will be hitting the ski slopes instead

:2tsup:

[Fish Boy]

Glad to hear things are progressing, bought the fibreglass for mine on the weekend as well, 25m @ $10.50 pm. if you would like to see how mine is comming along photo's can be viewed at
http://s606.photobucket.com/albums/tt145/Fishboyz/ (http://s606.photobucket.com/albums/tt145/Fishboyz/)

if all goes to plan hope to glass the hull this weekend,
Enjoy your holiday, great part of the world you are heading to:cool:

[Chikoroll]

haha i really should hurry up with this :P

cut the forms today, got the strips, got the epoxy, got the fibreglass, got the space, got the time....

it shall be coming alive over the next month or so, tomorrow i'm starting the strip laying:2tsup:

[Chikoroll]

saturday:
the forms all cut out,

sunday:
the forms slapped onto a length of 60x60 rock maple, 100% rigid!, even with 5 metres of leverage, no flex - the red photo is just using the laser level to check it, camera can't see the laser too well, it was spot on over the entire distance :)

monday: strip laying, 2 layers

tuesday: strip laying, 2 layers

;) what do you reckon of this walnut burl veneer around the cockpit section?

not having any drama's with it just yet, hopefully none will arise ;) but there is always something

[Chikoroll]

the strips are stapled from afar (safety removed so i can shoot from 20mm's away so they don't submerge the heads) and spring clamped together

all joins are staggered


test snapping of 5 strips with the westsystem resulted in the timber snapping before the joints tore apart - that's what we want
westsystem penetration ~ 4mm's into the timber, when i coat for the fibreglassing, it will enter the pores right to the core of the timber :D

[Chikoroll]

more strips added, only 1 layer has needed cheater strip so far, and only just above the waterline:2tsup:

going to sus out a few different decoration designs on it tomorrow, so doubt i will fit any strips

each layer is averaging 1 hour to sand the joint, fit and glue

[Chikoroll]

got some Wenge and Blackbean on it now

takes so much longer to clamp without the bead and cove moulding on it! (twice as long~ 2 hours to a layer)

spanish cedar will continue to strip the rest of the hull, then the centre part will be covered in stripped cherry veneer (too heavy to go solid cherry)

am hoping to complete the hull by wednesday arvo

[Chikoroll]

ends of the hull are complete, got my eyes on a sheet of flame mahogany for the centre part:2tsup:

as you can see, i don't care too much about how neat the join is between the 2 sides, it's going to be routered open, and have 10mm's of laminated tasmanian oak in it (double as a rock bash point)


you can see in the 4th photo the laser level, it's setup to show the centre line...just gotta hope the damn work experience kid doesn't move it on monday :~

[m2c1Iw]

Coming along nicely.

Wish I had your wood rack Chiko with the wood of course :D

Cheers
Mike

[Chikoroll]

hahaha ;) how about this bit of burl, got 50 sheets at 1200*800
all the bottom needs is the laminated centre strip now, tassie oak for structural purposes, with wild quarter sawn american oak as the face veneer (weight difference and available length)

any idea what that whitish sheet of veneer is? i was thinking white cedar...but not sure

[Chikoroll]

centre strip sorted, will plane it down and attach the quarter sawn american oak tomorrow

....wednesday deadline, looks like it will happen:2tsup:
should be flipping it over on thursday by the looks of it

[Chikoroll]

bash strip is on, check out that quarter sawn american oak:2tsup: in the real light, the crossbands change from light orange to golden, all high gloss

[Chikoroll]

minor drama with the #### end, the laminate was too thick, and slowly sprung back into shape (expected this, but didn't want to use laminates, and don't have the time for the steamer to go to work on it, because i wanted to keep the quartersawn highlights, with as much shaping as i wanted....now i am limited to losing the highlights, or shaping.... small sacrifice

replaced this section with a heap of 0.5-1.5mm veneers, no chance of it springing back now, each piece reinforced by the next, with about 8 strips total (had just 2 before)

the veneers have slid down slightly, but filling this section is a simple cut with the dovetail saw

planed the front end to the round, bloody oath it looks pimp! (can't capture it in the camera though)

[Chikoroll]

more planing and sanding.... and a planer blade in a thumb hahahahah :2tsup: