Spindle Mounts

[WillyInBris]

Well guys I have been busy getting things set up for the new Spindle for my machine following in Greg's footsteps just a couple of pics to show you what I have been up to.

These two mounts took a bit of time the first one took me 3hrs and the second 2hrs after I tweaked some of the settings could probably do better but I don't really need to make any more mounts and crap that swarf gets into places that you never thought that you would find it :o .

I should have the spindle mounted tomorrow just got a new bench drill Chinese one it ain't a Drill Mill but will do well for what I need for the time being.

I will update again in the next day or two. :2tsup:

Sean

[rodm]

Nice work Sean :2tsup:
Keen to see the spindle running and your opinion of how it performs.

[WillyInBris]

Hi guys just a little further today mounted the motor and will need to find another Cap Screw supplier anyway will get to that in the morning.

I am still waiting on the Pump :C hope it hasn't been lost in the post but anyway will just have to wait by the letter box :roll:.

[John H]

What sort is of spindle is it? Where is it from?

[WillyInBris]

Hi John,
Its a water cooled 6000-24000RPM Spindle running off a VFD this allows me to govern the speeds from 6000-24000RPM the reason is as your probably aware different products Wood Perspex Nylon Foam Aluminium all require different cutting speeds for the best results.

The reason for water cooling is the noise factor these spindles run quite the die grinder I used makes the same noise as a normal router not very neighbour friendly when your running for a number of hours and this is what they are made for routing under load for long periods of time.

A setup like this is around $1000
From China

[John H]

Cool, be interested in hearing how it runs when you get it set up

[Greolt]

Hi guys just a little further today mounted the motor and will need to find another Cap Screw supplier anyway will get to that in the morning.

I am still waiting on the Pump :C hope it hasn't been lost in the post but anyway will just have to wait by the letter box :roll:.

Hey Sean it really looks the part sitting up there on your Z axis. :)

What sort of pump did you get? I have decided they don't need much.

Gone from a great big water tub down to a ten litre lidded tub from Bunnings. Only needs to fit the pump and submerge it. They don't even get luke warm.

Did the cable arrive? Should have. If not then tomorrow.

Are you going to hook it up to be controlled by Mach ? Hooked mine up with a DigiSpeed from Peter Homann. Works great.

Mounting the VFD permanent is all that is left to do.

The only thing now is that my vacuum pump is noisier than everything else. Got to do something about that next. :rolleyes:

Greg

[rodm]

Hi Greg
A bit off topic but I got a 6 cfm refrigeration vacuum pump off ebay for around $300. It runs really quiet (about the same as the aquarium air pumps), is two vane and I am going to use it for vacuum forming poystyrene. Blame Benny for the video link for that. :D
Are you just using water as a coolant or is there some magic elixer added?

[WillyInBris]

What sort of pump did you get? I have decided they don't need much.

Did the cable arrive? Should have. If not then tomorrow.

Are you going to hook it up to be controlled by Mach ? Hooked mine up with a DigiSpeed from Peter Homann. Works great.

Mounting the VFD permanent is all that is left to do.

The only thing now is that my vacuum pump is noisier than everything else. Got to do something about that next. :rolleyes:

Greg

This is the pump I ma going to trial is a Thermaltek P500 Pump (http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=207_160_296&products_id=5655) this should work fine interesting that you say it doesn't get very hot thats a good thing then one of the small radiators these guys sell may work but then again I have a CNC router I can do anything maybe I will just make a cooling block :D.

I will control the VFD for the time being :D manually but I have been looking at a breakout boards from hobby CNC that has it built in but thanks for the heads up on the Digi one you are using as I still haven't decided and am going to look at putting all the electronics into a proper cabinet on a proper stand so it will be a little time before I get that part done as I really need to weld up a stand first.

[WillyInBris]

Hi Greg
A bit off topic but I got a 6 cfm refrigeration vacuum pump off ebay for around $300. It runs really quiet (about the same as the aquarium air pumps), is two vane and I am going to use it for vacuum forming poystyrene. Blame Benny for the video link for that. :D
Are you just using water as a coolant or is there some magic elixer added?

Ok your gonna have to send me the links on this.

I think we will be fine with plain water but I have a 4lt container of green fluid can hurt and it ain't being used for anything else after I fixed my car.

[crocky]

Hi John,
Its a water cooled 6000-24000RPM Spindle running off a VFD this allows me to govern the speeds from 6000-24000RPM the reason is as your probably aware different products Wood Perspex Nylon Foam Aluminium all require different cutting speeds for the best results.

The reason for water cooling is the noise factor these spindles run quite the die grinder I used makes the same noise as a normal router not very neighbour friendly when your running for a number of hours and this is what they are made for routing under load for long periods of time.

A setup like this is around $1000
From China

You will have to give us more info than that :)

Name of the Supplier?

Like you, I suffer from noise :2tsup:

Looks good so far...

[WillyInBris]

Sorry guys currently in Sydney changing nappies for my sister as she is in hospital at the moment I hope to be back into it mid week all going well its nearly ready to run :D just hope my collets have turned up when I get home.

[Greolt]

Hope your sister is doing OK. Give her our best wishes. :2tsup:

Greg

[WillyInBris]

Hey guys,

Well its complete the spindle works well worth every $ as far as I am concerned still need to make a few minor changes try a different size tubing for cooling.

I got the track a couple of days ago for cable management and welded up a cradle last night for the X axis don't need a cradle for the Y axis it just lays neatly along the top I can probably take out a few links on both of the axises (spellin ?)but will wait an see how it works out didnt bother on the Z.

The track really makes it look the part well I think it does and no more wires hanging from the ceiling or getting caught on crap :-.

Oops the collets turned up today so will need to go get them from the post office in the AM :2tsup:.

[Greolt]

That really looks the part Sean. Sorting out cable management is well worth the effort.

Starting to look like a very professional machine. :2tsup:

How did you go with getting Mach3 to control the spindle?

Greg

[WillyInBris]

Hi Greg haven't worried about that yet, I may just go for a C11 Breakout board because I want to run homing switches etc and it has a pot on board.



.

[rodm]

Hi Sean,
Certainly looking the part there with the spindle and cable chain.
I am following you and Greg on these spindles so keep the posts coming. :2tsup:

[Greolt]

So how is it going Sean?

Did you settle on a cooling system?

I am very happy with mine. I was expecting it to be even quieter than it is. But it is pretty good.

The next thing for me was that now my converted compressor come vacuum pump was by far the noisiest part. I use vacuum a lot.

So I followed Rod's lead and bought a refrigeration mechanics vac pump off ebay. It is fantastic. Really quiet. :)

Greg

[WillyInBris]

Hi Greg,

Well yep the spindle is all good besides being sent a spindle with the wrong collet size (still working through that with the supplier) so I am waiting on a set or ER11s to turn up from china the bloody Olympics isn't helping things :(( at the moment.

The pond pump is working well enough and will suffice for the time being but I have been looking at different options for cooling and think I have found something that should work even better for us :D time will tell.

Keep us updated on the Vac setup as I think that will be the next thing on my list.

:2tsup:

[Greolt]

Your spindle has an ER11 nose? Mine is ER16

My coolant pump I pinched off my lathe is going great.

Greg

[crocky]

Hi Sean,


Hi Greg,

Well yep the spindle is all good besides being sent a spindle with the wrong collet size (still working through that with the supplier) so I am waiting on a set or ER11s to turn up from china the bloody Olympics isn't helping things :(( at the moment.


Where did you get the spindle from and what is the part number? I guess we need to specify the correct collets too??

[WillyInBris]

Greg it was supposed to be ER16 nose but was sent as an ER11.

Bob
I purchased mine from http://www.kelinginc.net/CNCSpindleandController.html but I would hold off as they didn't supply to specification: ER11 instead of ER16 :(( until I find out the full story.

Willy

[WillyInBris]

OK all sorted guys,

Kelinginc worked out the problem just communication error with the supplier to Kel but we have finally come to an agreement :2tsup:.

I will be sticking with the ER11 nose for the time being but should suffice until I build my next CNC that I have planned.

Anyway for those that wanted to set up a spindle I think it is worth every cent, I purchased mine from Kelinginc and you can buy the same spindles from Homeshopcnc the support has been good from John at Kelinginc but it came with little documentation on how to set the unit up so it was trial and error with that part.

Homeshopcnc apparently offers a setup manual when you buy from them and they would probably match the price of Kelinginc but have only one type of spindle listed so you would need to ask if they can get the 1.5kw unit in I am sure they can.

So all good so far just waiting on my ER11 collets :rolleyes: bloody Olympics slows everything down.

[crocky]

So that means that you have the KL-2200? and you order the KL-VFD22 as a separate order?

[WillyInBris]

KL-1500 is what I have what happened is that on the Kelinginc website they stated that it was ER16 they have since changed tER11.

So to answear your question Bob I have a
KL-1500 spindle and a KL-VFD15 and so far can recommend them and wont hesitate in purchasing another for my next machine probably wont bother going for the KL-2200 as I don't think we need the extra grunt for what we do.

I will dob in both Rob and Greg they have both purchased cheaper spindles from a different supplier and seem to be happy so far a few issues but seem to be running ok from what I understand, I have had no faults besides a ordering mix up.

we haven't had a chance to compare the two different spindles with each other yet hopefully I can bring mine down to the next BBQ whenever that is and Greg and I can have a play and do some direct comparisons and see if the extra $$ I paid was worth it.

Willy

[WillyInBris]

So that means that you have the KL-2200? and you order the KL-VFD22 as a separate order?

oops yes KL-1500 spindle and a KL-VFD15 so about $850 all up + ship

[rodm]

Sean
Kelling have corrected their web site now to show the 1.5kw spindle with er11 collet chuck.
The Er11 will hold a 1/4 inch shaft bit so will be no different to the die grinder you have been using.
I think even the smaller 800 watt unit will be OK. More power than the die grinders and less weight than the 1.5kw model. That is the only concern I have is the weight of the 1.5kw spindle. I am going to get the 800 watt motor some time and trial it.
My replacement spindle (the first was damaged in transit) has been held up for two weeks because of the shipping restrictions in China with the Olympic Games.

[WillyInBris]

has been held up for two weeks because of the shipping restrictions in China with the Olympic Games.

And they want to win all the Gold medals as well how rude :wink:

[appiwood]

Hello Willy

I bought a spindle from Tigertech ( sp? ) in the States, it was a ER11 but came with only one collet, I bought a full set from a supplier in Hong Kong for AU$27.50 + <$10.00 shipping, ( this is the ebay number 120295362533 ) or just type in ER11 Collet

The only down side was it took about 2-3 weeks to get here but the price was right.

Hope that helps.

Ed

[WillyInBris]

Hi Ed,

Yep got a set heading down under ordered them last week from that same supplier thanks for that.

Willy

[Greolt]

While on the subject of collets,

Collet sets you get from China are most likely metric. Imperial are harder to find. I get them from the US.

Now you may say what's the difference? Metric collet set will cover all sizes.

Yes they will. Each size will squeeze down to the next size.

But if you are like me and use mostly 1/4" and 1/8" shank sized bits them for instance a 7mm collet must closed down to 6.35mm. 4mm to 3.17mm.

It is a nuisance to use the spanner for several bites to close it down but more importantly instead of a full grip it only contacts on points.

95% of the time I use 1/4" or 1/8" shanks so it makes sense to me to have a 1/4" and 1/8" ER collet ( I have a metric set too) :)

Greg

[WillyInBris]

But thats a good point Greg, But I am so over collets though :C.

I will have to order some 1/4" and 1/8" ER collets in the near future.

Well I have been dreaming that Rod maybe one day will invent an auto tool changer :D I am sure he could, cmon Rod you can and I am sure evryone elese thinks you could I am sure :U.

I guess I will just keep dreaming lol.

[Greolt]

Just in case any one is interested look up the ebay number 360080964645

Rod has bought from this supplier. Not as cheap as the metric ones but I paid more for two collets. :(

Greg

[rodm]

I had a bit of trouble with a 1.5kw spindle being damaged in transit but all is good now. I have made a temporary connection to the VFD and it is running. It does take a while to wind up to the 24,000 rpm but I am assuming this is because it does not have a capacitor.
Very impressed with the low noise of the spindle but these spindles are heavy.
I am thinking maybe a 800 watt spindle would do the job.
What are your thoughts on this?

[appiwood]

Hello Rod

The spoolup you mention should be able to be programmed into VFD, what brand do you have, although I think all the parameters are standardisied (sp?) across brands, have you tried a 0-10 volt signal? as for a smaller spindle even though I am only a hobbyist user I am a builder and there is no substitute for power when cutting metal / timber.

Ed

[WillyInBris]

Hi Rod,

Ok for the spoolup/windup time yes that can be changed in the VFD it is called acceleration and deceleration should be in the first part of the programming for the VFD mine was in modules F10 & F11 but yours may be different.

Mine is currently set to .5 on acceleration and 2. on deceleration so have a play with them my understanding is that you would use longer times if this was under load from start but seeming we are cutting air it that can be dropped with no harm to the spindle.

I had found some info somewhere that its good to run the spindle for about 30secs to warm up before running load unsure if we can set that up under Mach3 but probably wont bother looking at that until I set up the speed control with mach3.

Smaller Versus Larger well this debate could just be like the Router debate is the Bigger Spindle/Router better then the smaller Spindle/Router and whilst we all believe from what we hear from our partners that Bigger is better :o is isn't necessarily the truth when it comes to machinery of any type.

Weight: if the smaller spindle weighs less then the larger that it would surly be better on wear and tear on things like ballscrews and the machine itself.

If I was doing lithopanes and signs relatively lite work I would be fine with the smaller spindle wouldn't be a problem as far as I can see.

For doing 3D work the larger spindle should be better at taking the loads for roughing out materials much better and at faster speeds then I could probably do with the smaller spindle.

I really think it will depend on the type of work you do and size of machine you have and the materials you cut.

The above is only my opinion and I have purchased the larger spindle with further ideas in mind for a larger machine.

Sean

[rodm]

Thanks for the replies.
Ed,
I just did a lash up to make sure it worked. The VFD is not branded as it is an out of China unit. It can take the 10 volt input signal but I have yet to discover how I will do that. It is a pain changing speeds with the button controls on the VFD.
I agree with you on more power but these spindles are very heavy compared to the die grinder I am currently running. I will fit this spindle to a new machine and make sure I have enough grunt in the steppers to drive it around.

Sean,
I was thinking more about the smaller machines and you have summed up pretty much what I was floating in my mind. I should have been clearer in my post.
I brought this for noise reduction and really didn't give much thought to the extra weight.
How are your cooling ideas coming along? I will follow Greolt on the machine coolant pump unless you come up with something better. I got some 6mm clear hose from Bunnings and can just fit it without modifying the nipple.

[Greolt]

I really like my spindle. I wanted a "proper" spindle for so long and am glad that I finally convinced myself to buy one.

The whole water cooling thing is an extra level of complexity. More things to go wrong etc. I would not call the coolant pump ideal but it is doing the job and I already had it. Still think the aquarium pump was a good option. Pumped fine but would not start reliably. Think it was a dud.

The advantage of water cooled is they are quieter. Though I have to say it is not as quiet as I had expected. Once it is hard mounted it transmits more noise.

For Mach to control the VFD (one of the main advantages) look at Peter Homann's Digispeeds. I use the step signal one.

The weight of the spindle caused me no grief, though I thought it might. You may just have to tune down the acceleration on the Z a bit but I think you will be surprised. I have mine fairly aggressive.

The 1.5kw size is a good match for my machine. Glad I did not get the 2.2kw one. If building a smaller machine I would go for a .8 to 1kw model.

Also in that size I would look very seriously at an air cooled model which I would modify with an electric fan to do away with the very noisy direct drive fan. And of course avoid the water setup.

Greg

[rodm]

Hi Greg,
I know what you mean about hard mounting increasing the noise. In my hand barely audible but hold it to the top of my table saw and noise (vibration I think) is present.
Been thinking about a cork washer between the mounts and the Z axis plate.
Mind you it is much quieter than a die grinder so not disappointed there.
I'll check out Homman as there is little point in fitting one of these without Mach3 controlling it.
Looks like a modification to the console already. :rolleyes:

[WillyInBris]

Well I have two more but $$ are a bit low this week so have to wait until next week.

What i have been looking for is a high pressure pump (PSI) is what its all about.

The pond pump is still working well but the other two ideas are a Fuel pump from a car and a inline pressure pump you can buy from 40psi - to 100psi a guy at the local irrigation company thinks thats the best option for what I am trying achieve.

Mine is quite I have no issues at all not as quite as when holding by hand but I can talk on the phone in the same room without a problem at all.

Anyone got a sound Meter?

[Greolt]

The fact that mine had a leak problem when I got it makes me wary about high pressure.

Plus it only needs a small flow to keep cool. Which can be obtained without high pressure.

Yeah quiet is a relative term. Certainly a lot better than a die grinder. Was expecting nirvana. :)

Greg

[Frankmc]

Hi Guys

Im just a lurker at the moment but one day i hope to have a small cnc router...;-)

Rodm.....Most VFD,s allow you to connect a linear pot to them to control the speed....

http://www.baldor.com.au/product_view.php?PROD_ID=53

These are the ones we use at work and they also have inputs (3 i think) that can be programmed to allow you to go to set speeds.......

HTH
Frank

[rodm]

Nirvana is when I kill off one of the last two bain cells I have now. It will stop the confusion. :D
Greg agree on the high pressure and I thought about your spindle with that. Having pulled the first spindle of mine apart the connection between the top plate and cooling tubes is a loose fitting "O" ring. Sean your spindle is probably the same design so be a bit cautious.

[WillyInBris]

Cautious me rod :U you no I am like a bull at the gate, if you have your manual email it to me if you like I need a good read.

[rodm]

Manual on the way

[rodm]

Hi WillyInBris,
Thanks for the file for the spindle mounts. I cut one tonight out of 25 mm ally plate and it worked a treat. Took a couple of hours to cut as I did it on RPM which has the Sherline Spindle so I had to take it easy. Tomorrow night I will cut the top mount and use 16mm plate for that so it should be quicker. I'll post a photo here when it is finished.
Did all the electrics to the VFD while cutting the mount.
I have a pond pump for the cooling but haven't hooked it up yet.
I am trying to get it all finished and mounted for Saturday. I don't like my chances at this stage as I am going out Friday night.
Have you got your spindle mounted yet?

[appiwood]

Hello Rod

In a way technology PMO in that you get a really good device, say a gas house heater and a dinky little 2 button device to control it!, I was in Sydney on Monday and bought a usb > RS485?? converter, you plug a FJ45 cable into it and the other end into the VFD, no more buttons and it can be done via the computer.

Up to this point I can't tell you how it works as when loading it, I re-booted to computer on completing and the computer now thinks it is a perputal motion machine ( won't complete boot process ).

Still once programmed the VFD's don't need to be " touched ".

Ed

[rodm]

Hi Ed,
Thnaks for the heads up on that. I will look into interfacing to the computer once I have it mounted and the collant running.

[WillyInBris]

Hi guys,

Rod good to hear that your on your way, at the moment I am back in sydney :( helping family out I should be back on the weekend again but probably back to sydney on monday for another stint of baby sitting the wife thinks I am getting clucky and in between that looking for a house to buy lol feels like I need a holiday

A quick update on the spindle well I have had it running for 4 hours non stop on a 3d job I will take some pics on the weekend if I get the chance and all was well.

With the nature of 3D work the roughing cut makes the most noise but that was from the material being cut and the bit being used and only ran for about 25mins the finish cut took longer but as it only takes a very lean slice the only noise is from the Spindle :2tsup:.

The best thing is no noise complaints from the wife or the neighbors:2tsup:, I am sure some of you are thinking about taking the plunge and I will say that its worth every cent that I paid for my unit the only negatives is the water cooling and working out the best way to do it.

The pond pump works well for cooling but I am still going to try an alterantive in the near future but the pump I am using is only $25 so if I had to get a new one every 25hours then thats still cheap, I am sure it will last longer but hey always an excuse to visit Bunnys.

Willy

PS Rod if you see another electronics enclosure like the one you purchased can you send me an email again, I forgot all about and it gone someone else purchased them :-)

[rodm]

Hi Sean,
Yep, family first. :2tsup:
Good to hear you are pleased with the spindle. I am thinking of the 800 watt unit for a smaller machine but will think about that further down the track once Morphy is built. The rate I am going this will be the longest build I have done. Keep being distracted with home renos for my son.
I looked this morning and he has another two switchboards listed. Just search on switchboard on ebay and they are the same price $75 plus postage. If you can't find them yell out and I'll find a link. By the way they are the bee's knees for what we require.