Table Saw Safety

[Grunt]

I'm in the process of setting up my workshop and I want to make it as safe and a compfortable as I can. Dewy (from Gloucester) had kindly posted an article Lowering the Odds (http://www.customwooddesign.com/loweringtheodds1.html) which has plenty of good advice. It suggested that the blade guards and splitters are either a hinderance or plainly unsafe.

I was wondering what the experienced people here thought of blade guards and splitters. I know that there was another thread on this bb which was suggesting that Norm was irresponsible for not explaining why he didn't have guards on his machines.

I am designing and building a surround table for my TS and life will be easier if I don't have to allow for the sticky out bits (another technical term) of the splitter and guard mounts.

I will end up building a blade guard as part of the dust capture. I had planned to steal Wayne Davy's design (Overhead Blade Guard (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6700&highlight=Cyclone) )

Grunt

[kenmil]

If you remove those "sticky out bits" from the saw you might just find that the saw will remove some of yours in the future.
Despite what has been written here and elsewhere by others, operating a table saw without a splitter is just asking for a kickback. To operate without a blade guard means that you think you will be concentrating 100% ALL the time in future, and will never put your hand in the wrong place.

Dont't even consider it. Do the extra work on the surround table.

[Rocker]

Grunt,

I agree with most of the points made in the article you posted. I have to admit that, although I tried, when I first started using my table saw, to always keep the blade guard and splitter in place, I soon found that there were so many occasions when they had to be removed, that I eventually took to using it without them. On the other hand, I invariably use a long push stick of the type that sits on top of the board, and I am vigilant for any sign that the kerf is tending to bow and close behind the blade. If I see that happening, I turn the saw off, remove the board, and then start the cut again, and, if necessary, insert a wedge into the kerf to keep it open. I don't think it is feasible to follow kenmil's advice to always keep the guard in place, especially when cutting small or narrow pieces.

I have recently made a splitter out of a piece of aluminium bar stock, which is quick and easy to remove when necessary. I have also made the Wayne Davy guard, but I use it mainly as a dust collecting device when ripping wide boards. When ripping small and narrow pieces, I remove it, since it gets in the way of my primary safety device, the push stick. A zero-clearance table insert is another essential safety device.

There is a good article on safe techniques of cutting small and narrow pieces on the table saw in the current Fine Woodworking (#169).

Probably the most important safety rule with the table saw is never to use it unless you are fully alert and able to give it 100% concentration. If your concentration is affected by fatigue, stress, or alcohol, the machine will punish you without mercy.

I suspect that this thread is in the wrong forum.

Rocker

[kenmil]

Rocker,

I agree with you about the zero clearance insert. If you think you can see a kickback coming , you are kidding yourself. It will happen in less time than you can blink, and by then it will be all over. I also worry that you refer to your push stick as your "primary safety device". All a push stick does is keep your appendages away from the blade, but it does not prevent kickbacks; in fact, if you exert pressure on your push stick incorrectly, you may cause a kickback !

I only ever remove my guard and splitter when I am using a dado blade, and frankly, I can't think of any other time when you would need to.

Anyway, there will always be those who think they can operate a table saw without safety devices, and the longer they do it, the more reassured they are that their approach is correct - until they lose some part of their body.
It's a tough way to find out you are wrong.:rolleyes:

[Red neck]

Norm has a lot of table saw hours under his belt but interestingly he still has all his digits, or else he has a ‘stand-in’ to do the hand shots!

I recently found that my Delta pivoting guard tends to deflect ‘rear edge’ upwards with thicker pieces of timber, failing to ride over the top, and becomes a wedge. The natural tendency is to flick it back into position with your right hand whilst still guiding the timber past the blade. That tendency could be extremely dangerous. I therefore feel that some safety devices could well lead to personal injury. The Delta blade guard may work well with thin sheet material but consistently won’t ride over thick timber or an ‘Incra’ mitre gauge. In such instances it is far safer to remove the guard.

“…the most important safety rule with the table saw is never to use it unless you are fully alert and able to give it 100% concentration….”
I think Rocker has the right approach and that is to develop a healthy awareness to the dangers of saw components and promote personal safety rules or risk management practices. I find that lengthy periods of job activity lead to complacency. To overcome this I have developed a process of ‘productivity assessment’. If I find that my performance is tending towards ‘slips’ I break for coffee. Five or ten minutes outside the shed allows a fresh approach on return. Less timber wastage too!

[gatiep]

This is one of those threads that will never have the 'right' answer. There are times that you just have to remove the safety devices, even if it is only when you use a dado blade.
Because we are all individuals we also have different preferences and perceptions of safety etc. So no matter what one says on this, there will always be those that have a different view and quite rightly so.
My view is: Use whatever you feel you need and are comfortable with and I'll use whatever I feel I need and feel comfortable with..........that way only I am responsible for the outcome of my actions. So many people are like some do gooders...preach one thing and do another..............

When things go wrong you only have yourself to blame....can't pass the buck!

Happy sawing
Cya
Joe

[Grunt]

Oops, wrong forum. Can someone who can, move it to general woodworking. Thanks.

From reading the above, gatiep is right, getting everyone to agree will be like getting everyone to agree on cyclones.

I need to think a bit more on the subject.

[Rocker]

kenmil,

If you have found a way to push narrow pieces of wood safely past the saw blade with the guard still in place, good on you. I don't see how you could use a push stick without removing the guard, if the fence is 20 mm or less from the blade.

I would contend that kick-back is not something that happens unpredictably. It only happens if the kerf in the workpiece is pinching the back of the blade; if a badly adjusted fence is pinching the workpiece between it and the back of the blade; if the workpiece is pushed obliquely rather than parallel to the plane of the blade; or possibly, if a loose fragment of wood gets trapped between the workpiece and the blade or between the workpiece and the fence. If you are vigilant to ensure that none of these conditions can occur, then kickback will not occur either. When kick-back is about to occur there are usually warning signs, either a lot of smoke, or the far end of the board starting to lift. I would also argue that a long, shoe-type push stick can prevent kick-back, because it can hold the board firmly in contact with the saw table.

In many years of woodworking, during which I have made about 60 items of furniture, I have had only one kick-back incident; that happened because I was following an inherently dangerous procedure that an author recommended in an article, mentioning that it was hazardous. In retrospect I should never have done what was recommended, because, as I later realized, there was a perfectly safe way of achieving the same result. I was fortunate that I escaped without injury, but the incident made me think much more carefully about kick-back.

Rocker

[derekcohen]

The business of ripping on a tablesaw scares the daylights out of me. I approach my tablesaw with the deepest of respect, usually bowing three times beforehand. I have known to polish its mechanism, anoint it with oils and other elixers of life, adjust the fence for binding and check the blade for straightness. I tenderly remove its crown ... blade and cleanse it with oven cleaner, removing the tars that stick and so intefere with the miracle of cutting. I know that if I do not do the above, The Tablesaw (please note the respect denoted by the use of Capital letters) will punish me for my lack of faith and cast its wrath my way.

Like Rocker, I have been rewarded for my years of good faith with the absence of injury. But The Tablesaw has shown me His power on a few occasions, hurling bolts of energy that impaled themselves in the wall behind me! Such is the Glory that I now tremble at the memory!

I agree with Ken that it is not possible to always be sure that you have taken all necessary precautions. The problem with using a pushstick is just that it can, and does, cause the timber to slide unevenly towards the blade, and when subsequent binding occurs, The Tablesaw becomes mighty Angry!

The point made by Rocker about lifting the guard when ripping narrow pieces is an issue of relevance. We all do this. I tend to add a secondary fence and make bloody sure that I have finger boards tight against the timber.

I am thinking of installing a second splitter and am just trying to work out a design. It needs to be something like a pop-up splitter, adjustable for height, and to be able to be used independently from the guard (since this comes off for dados and small pieces of timber).

Any ideas?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Red neck]

As an aside try this link... http://www.woodshopdemos.com/Safe-3.htm

It is a pity that many of these safety items are so expensive. I guess you need to balance cost against personal safety. The more you use the table saw the greater your exposure. I look at other alternatives - bandsaw, router and so forth.

[kenmil]

Originally posted by gatiep
This is one of those threads that will never have the 'right' answer.

Happy sawing
Cya
Joe

I know what you mean Joe, but I am not entirely convinced that is so. I can't recall hearing about anyone losing fingers whilst operating a table saw with a saw guard in place. On the other hand, nearly all those who have met with this nasty injury on a table saw had removed the guard. Not much left to argue about really.

Of course, as you point out it is a matter of personal choice, and I don't want to sound like I am preaching, but I just can't understand people taking unnecessary risks.

[kenmil]

Originally posted by Rocker
kenmil,

If you have found a way to push narrow pieces of wood safely past the saw blade with the guard still in place, good on you. I don't see how you could use a push stick without removing the guard, if the fence is 20 mm or less from the blade.

Rocker

I simply wouldn't do that. I would be using a bandsaw or a handsaw.




Originally posted by Rocker

I would contend that kick-back is not something that happens unpredictably.


Rocker

Rocker, that is precisely when it does happen. Otherwise we would never be surprised by it !




Originally posted by Rocker

In many years of woodworking, during which I have made about 60 items of furniture, I have had only one kick-back incident;

Rocker

Ahh... the "many years experience" story. Rocker, most of the folk with less than 10 digits have many years of experience; those with little experience are too scared of the equipment to take risks.

Anyway, as pointed out by someone else, it is all a matter of personal choice. I sincerely hope you never meet with an accident that proves how wrong you are.

[bitingmidge]

I like touch typing, playing musical instruments and picking my nose, which means that I prefer to have all my digits attached in their correct locations for the rest of my life if possible.

I also like using my table saw and often with a sled of some description, is it possible to rig an effective guard for that circumstance? I have a sled design which covers the blade on exit, and I have changed the texture in the area of the blade to remind my thumbs not to be there, but.........

I am not sure either with regard to using the band saw for fine ripping and would love more feedback, I guess I just need more experience; I think they are insidious bloody things which don't make enough noise to scare me, but are still the butchers machine of choice for cutting up bits of animal!

cheers,

P

[gatiep]

Ken

Thats exactly my point, nobody needs to convince you and because people are individuals, unfortunately you won't convince others either.
We are all creatures of habits, some good and some bad habits. Millions of dollars are spent on the antismoking campaign and people still smoke..............so mate no matter how hard you try there will always be three camps......... those that use guards, those that don't and those that remove them occasionally.

I have seen digitals removed by saws without guards but I have also applied first aid to a guy that cut his thumb off while cutting through a 50 mm board with the guard in place.
Its known as an accident.........they happen, guards, no guards, just like safety belts in cars may save some lives, people still die even using them. Nothing is absolutely accident proof, not the Apollo mission, the Concorde or something as simple as walking.
We can only take whatever steps we deem necessary to minimise the risk.
Those steps are the individuals choice.

On a brighter note tomorrow is a public holiday in WA!! So shed here I come!
Cya
Joe

[Red neck]

Ken,

There are an awful lot of folk engaged in far more dangerous occupations than risking a few digits on the table saw. To some people an ‘on the job’ lack of concentration could result in serious injury or even death. Power workers are a typical example but with careful risk management and adherence to rules the risk can be negated. Crossing a busy road can be deadly at other than a pedestrian crossing and I’ll bet you have had to run that gauntlet a few times!

Like Rocker I too have experienced kickback from the table saw but recognised the possibility beforehand and took every step to avoid injury, and I still stand clear of the firing line when ripping timber! As alluded above the use of guards and other devices can create a false sense of security. The guard itself may just catch or obstruct at a bad moment creating a distraction resulting in injury to a worker who thought he was safe!

I’m all for the use of guards when they do their job with safety, but I also favour their removal for a specific task if their very presence could hinder the primary task of safely cutting wood. As for taking unnecessary risks it is very easy to modify handling technique to work around the risk of an unguarded saw blade by using push sticks, feather boards and other accessories and even practising the cut with the saw switched off and the blade lowered. As an aside I use a homemade guard over the dado cutter, otherwise I use the router. A cut digit from the saw may be repairable but I wouldn’t hold out much hope after mangling with a dado set!

“…Norm has a lot of table saw hours under his belt but interestingly he still has all his digits, or else he has a ‘stand-in’ to do the hand shots!”
That is no mean feat considering that he works in front of lights and cameras and probably directs most of the angles himself. He also gives a running commentary with an unguarded whirring blade just inches from his hands. I’m sure he practices more ‘shop safety’ than wearing his bifocals!

[DarrylF]

Having a guard in place will NOT stop you getting injured. Staying the hell away from the blade because you had a guard in place, or just because it's the right thing to do anyway, will.

99% of all guards present zero resistance to your hand being dragged into the blade if you're doing the wrong thing. They tend to deflect bits from being thrown at your face, which is nice, but will not prevent you getting kickback and winding up with a length of timber hitting you in the guts (or worse :)). They will not prevent you slipping and shoving your hand into the blade if you have the wrong stance or wrong grip and aren't using a push BLOCK. Anyone who uses a STICK to push timber into a table saw blade needs his head read in my opinion.

Guards are a good thing - they present a mental barrier, stop bits flying at your face, and help dust extraction - but only if they're set up right. Stock guards on most of the saws we're using are worse than useless, they're actually dangerous IMHO.

Splitters are also a good thing - but only if they're the right config and decent quality. A poorly designed or poorly fitted splitter is more dangerous than none - they can actually cause kickback, binding etc.

To echo several others - this is a dangerous piece of machinery. Use the wrong technique, get lazy, get stupid, get drunk and it will jump up and rip bits of you off.

I've had a couple of scares, even had a finger clipped by a router bit - every time because I was doing something stupid. Guards on the saw would not have prevented the saw incidents. A guard on the router table would have - so I built a solid, usable guard over the bit that bolts in place and is easy to adjust & remove as needed - so I use it.

[kenmil]

Gentlemen,

I bow to the majority view, though I find it incredible that we would even be debating such a thing as this. Please continue to tell yourself that you are always alert enough to see a kickback coming, and that your concentration will never stray, and lead you to put yourself in harm's way. I wish you luck.

Listening to some of the arguments is a bit like listening to a Richmond fan rationalise another year of failure - it just doesn't wash.

For my money you are all fools ( I mean that in the nicest possible way) but I hope you keep yourselves intact and prove me wrong.

[Sturdee]

Ken. I agree with you wholeheartedly, and I believe that so far we have heard mainly from the vocal minority and not the majority for they are so amazed and dumbfounded that this subject is even debated.

IMHO if the safety devices get in the way you need to make a jig that will allow you to do the job safely or you should use a different tool.

For those who think otherwise - well you know what they say about driving when you're over .05 - the same goes for them as well.

Peter.

[Robert WA]

A zero clearance insert and a built in splitter for each blade resolves the problem of the standard splitter being the wrong width.
This is not my idea, I pinched it from the net.

[derekcohen]

Robert

I don't agree with this solution. The design of the typical splitter is poorly conceptualised. For a start, it does not move in three dimensions as it needs to do (three dimensions? yes, up, down and forwards/backwards). Why forwards and backwards you might ask? Because when you lower the blade, and the splitter remains at its previous (fixed) height, it effectively increases the gap/distance between it and the blade, thereby increasing the likelihood of binding and kickback. Therefore, what you are suggesting is a stop gap. The solution is really more simple, that is, tablesaws should have dedicated Riving Knives. These hug the contours of the blade, moving up and down, front and back, side to side.

When I posted earlier on about installing a second splitter, I really meant a riving knife. I am in the process of designing one for my tablesaw.

I find it very interesting that, as we have this debate on the forum, so others have been doing just the same on other forums on the net (which I discovered when I did a Search on Google for DIY Riving Knifes - incidentally, there are none).

The other point is that Ken has made a valid point in saying that kickback is unpredictable. I agree - this was the message I was trying to get across in my attempt at humour earlier on. I think that we can reduce the possible dangers but not exclude it. We should not lose focus for one moment when using such a potentially dangerous machine.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[poimen]

I bought a GRR-Ripper to overcome some of the functionality vs perceived safety tradeoffs that are at play in the choices made to remove safety guards or splitters.

The GRR-Ripper is designed to apply pressure both downward and against the saw fence to the board being ripped. It acts like a mobile blade guard passing directly over the blade on its way past and preventing the hand controlling it from coming into contact with the blade. It makes the need for a splitter almost superfluous. Indeed it is unable to be used with a splitter that is significantly higher than the blade. A low splitter like the one shown by Robert WA would work well with the GRR-Ripper for added safety. My saw has a riving knife that raises and lowers, forward and backward with blade height and this also works well with it.

Dogged refusal to remove the guard can make some operations which are possible on the table saw impossible or very hazardous, or never attempted, even if they can be done safely using other methods.

Take a look at www.microjig.com for more info on the GRR-Ripper

[Robert WA]

Derek. If you come up with a design for a riving knife will you pass it on. You and I have the same basic Carba-tec, Timbecon saw, I think.

[Rocker]

It is a matter of semantics, whether you call kick-back unpredictable or not. There are certainly a number of ways in which an incompetent operator can predictably cause kickback. Ken and Derek are referring, I think, to those rare instances where there is a difficult-to-detect or impossible-to-predict factor, such as a defect or loose knot in the timber, or where the operator is startled by something beyond his control, and kick-back occurs. In these cases, of course, it is indeed unpredictable, because the operator could not be aware of what actually was going to cause the kick-back.

However, I don't think it is helpful in debates such as this to describe people with whom you disagree as fools (even in the nicest possible way).

I value my fingers as much as anyone, and I try my utmost to minimize the inherent dangers of using the table saw. However, in my view, the use of a suitable push-block and zero-clearance insert, awareness of the conditions that can lead to kick-back, and vigilance of the operator are the most important factors in avoiding injury.

Rocker

[derekcohen]

Robert

The design I have for a Riving Knife is likely to be retrofitable to most contractor-type tablesaws. I have liitle doubt that it will work since it is quite simple in concept and does not require any special modifications to the tablesaw. However my metalwork skills may not be up to it and I shall either have to get a pro to make up a prototype for me, or I need to find someone with much enthusiasm to work with me on it. So, if there is anyone out there in Perth who can weld and has some metal fabrication skills, contact me and we can make a plan to get together.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Red neck]

For my money you are all fools ( I mean that in the nicest possible way)
Sorry Kenmil there is no nice way to call someone a fool. If the thought is formulated it transmits as an insult. What a pity that a debate is compromised by attacking the individual and not the idea!

[gatiep]

Originally posted by gatiep
This is one of those threads that will never have the 'right' answer.


Joe

[kenmil]

Originally posted by Red neck
Sorry Kenmil there is no nice way to call someone a fool. If the thought is formulated it transmits as an insult. What a pity that a debate is compromised by attacking the individual and not the idea!

The definition of a fool is "someone who acts unwisely on a particular occasion".

I happen to think that you are acting unwisely, but if it bothers you then let me rephrase it - Your ideas on this subject are foolish.

What you are saying is that a machine which we all acknowledge is inherently dangerous (we do, don't we ????) cannot perform a particular function without removing the blade guard and/or splitter. So your solution is not to seek another way of performing the function - it is to remove the only piece of safety equipment on the machine, and then expect your wits to protect you !!
If it wasn't so dangerous it would almost be laughable.

As I said, I hope you continue to prove me wrong and remain intact, but I don't like your chances.