need help... for mortise ...

[cassca]

hi from france ;-)

well, i'm stone cutter in france , and , i need a new workbench ( is it a correct word ?) , i need a "table" for cut my stone ....
20" square and 31" high....

i think to use a oak for it...

4" square for leggs ...

i whant to make mortise .... and i need tools for do it....

japan tool of course
;-)

but how to make my choice ....too much chisel on web... and no one in france .....

can you help me? ( if you can read this message with my bad english) :C:C

thanks

cassca

NB: if you can help me for the hammer too .... :;

[Pam]

I highly recommend mortising chisels by Tasai ( http://japantool-iida.com/chisel_others/index_2.html or email Tomohito Iida at [email protected] ), Imai (called Fujihiro at Hida, http://www.hidatool.com/shop/shop.html ) and Funihiro (also at Iida). You can also probably use timber or chu taki chisels for this job. These may also be available from Soatoz (http://www.japan-tool.com/ ). If you standardize on one size mortise, you'll only need buy one chisel.

Pam

[yojimbo]

Hi, Cassca and Pam --

I just want to add that my experience with timber nomi has been incredible: I've got a job carving sections of 150-year-old beams from a Japanese house into small stools, and I used my timber nomi for days without losing the edge. They're incredibly durable.

For a hammer, at a good price, I highly recommend this eBay seller: http://myworld.ebay.com/australasiancollectables. He's very knowledgeable, and a real nice guy willing to advise: he'll be honest with you about which hammers he has are the best for your purpose. His name is Adam Coulson, and tell him Becky referred you to him. I'm sure he'll be most eager to help. He may even have some hammers he's not yet listed, which he would make available to you.

As is the case with many fine hammers, a lot of his hammers do not come with a handle. You can carve your own (he sometimes also has excellent Japanese woods for this), or put a standard handle on.

I can't make a better recommendation than Adam: he's just wonderful.

Good luck!

Becky

[cassca]

thank's for all !

you think for 1" mortis i need 1" chisel or less ?

[yojimbo]

Hi, Cassca,

Personally, I would use one slightly smaller -- 22mm (roughly 7/8" or 2.2 centimeters), or even 18mm, depending on the wood you're working and the thickness of the chisel, so as to avoid overshooting or crushing the edges of the cut. But that's me: it's not the primary work I do, so maybe you should wait for a more experienced answer.

Good luck,
Becky

[cassca]

ok yojimbo it's a good information ;-)

[Pam]

If you want 1" mortises, use a 1" (24.5 mm) chisel, and take your markings directly from the chisel.

Pam

[yojimbo]

Hi, Cassca --

See? Much better information from Pam -- thanks, P.

Becky

[Pam]

Becky, Japanese chisels have wonderfully sharp arises, which help clean the cuts. Besides that, it's unlikely that any hand forged tools can be made so precisely, they'll be approximately 24.5 mm, which is the reason to take markings (with a mortising marking gauge) from the chisel.

Pam

[yojimbo]

Hey, Pam,

I guess my thinking was based partly on my current job, which is carving old (150 yrs.) Japanese roofing beams (provided cut to 17" lengths by client) into stools: I need to set in butterfly keys, and I found that I had some troubles with cutting the corners of the insets. Of course, these are badly beetle-eaten and full of winding tracks that run all the way through the wood, so that may have been my problem. But I found a corner was as likely to be overcut or slightly marred if I wasn't careful. And, of course, these were less than 90-degree angles.

Can't remember the last time I had to cut a mortise. Hence, my ignorance on the topic.

Thanks for clearing it up for me and for Cassca!

Best,
Becky

[Pam]

Oh, yeah, cutting inserts is much more difficult than cutting mortises.

Pam

[yojimbo]

Pam --

On the right/wrong day, it's all difficult! But I'm glad to know it wasn't just me and my inadequate technique.

Thanks,
B

[cassca]

:D


http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/7315/vue1ut7.png
By casscailloux (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/casscailloux) at 2008-07-31

[cassca]

Oh, yeah, cutting inserts is much more difficult than cutting mortises.

Pam

what is it : cutting insert ?

[yojimbo]

Hi, Cassca,

When wood has a check or deep crack in it, there is a butterfly shaped "key" or insert that is cut to keep the two sides of the flaw from pulling further apart. This key is narrowest at its center, across the check, and then then flares outward on either side (hence the name "butterfly"), so that the key creates counter-pressure to the expansion of the check.

The key is cut out of similar or contrasting wood, to whatever depth is best for the size of the check. Then a matching depression must be cut across either side of the check in order to receive the butterfly key. This is what Pam meant when she referred to cutting inserts. The key and its cut out location must match perfectly in dimension and shape, so the cutting of the insert -- the depression that will receive the key -- is crucial.

Hope this clears it up.

B

[cassca]

oh ok , in french it's : trait de jupiter
http://www.tacher.ch/Trait_de_Jupiter.jpg

or this one : http://www.tacher.ch/Assemblage_papillon.jpg

i'm not sure ;-)

[Pam]

A couple or three thoughts on incorporating butterfly keys:

1) I think it may be essential that the key be made first, then used as a template for marking the insert. Granted that there are techniques that could allow the insert to be cut first, but they seem involved.

2) Before marking the insert the cracked area should be clamped so there is only the amount of crack you desire.

3) Use a very thin blade to mark the insert from the template/key and hold the knife with the bevel toward the key, a la Jeff Gorman. This gets you an almost perfect marking.

4) Cut the insert barely on the waste side of the marking.

Pam

[Pam]

http://www.tacher.ch/Assemblage_papillon.jpg

This is the example we're talking about.

Pam

[NeilS]

Here's an example of another application of the butterfly that I use in my woodturning. The Japanese do have a chisel, the bachi nomi (fishtail chisel), that is useful for making the butterfly mortices. And, more recently, some Japanese blacksmiths have made a chisel specifically for getting into the corners of dovetails.

Anyway this is starting to get off CASSCA's topic. Perhaps we need to start another thread if others want to discuss butterfly making.

[yojimbo]

Cassca -- thanks for the French name. Why reference Jupiter? Can you explain? I'm very curious.

Pam -- excellent addition; great technique -- I do all, except that the timbers I'm using are so old that I don't dare put pressure on them, and anyway I don't think the cracks are going to widen after all this time, especially since the timbers have been in this country/climate for about six years and are fully adjusted to it. Under any other circumstances, I'd do it, though. Really nicely described.

NeilS -- beautiful work. Thanks. And I think a continued discussion of butterfly keys and their applications/techniques would be great, here or elsewhere.

[cassca]

ok is a " assemblage papillon" ...

i'm looking in my books for "trait de jupiter" .....

for my chisels , i'm looking here : http://www.fine-tools.com/stemjap.htm

it's more easy for me ....

(the DAITEI Mini Oire Nomi Suminagashi , is :wub2: )

nb: my vocabulary is very limited , so i read gently ....(slow ...) :C then to type text ..... it's very long...i'm sorry :D

[cassca]

:rolleyes:

[cassca]

well :

«?Le trait de Jupiter?» owes its name to its lightning bolt shape, symbol of the Olympian god Jupiter.
:2tsup:

[Pam]

As much as I love Dieter, wonderful service at reasonable prices, he's probably furnished 10-30% of my tools, Japanese and other, I don't see anything on that page to excite. Suminagashi is simply very costly eye candy, it adds nothing to performance.

However, since you only need one or two chisels, there's nothing to lose by buying the Koshimitsu. Even if they aren't the ultimate in performance, they're cheap enough to throw/give away if they don't work out. I wouldn't get HSS, western or Japanese, unless you want some turning/lathe chisels.

Pam

[Pam]

well :

«?Le trait de Jupiter?» owes its name to its lightning bolt shape, symbol of the Olympian god Jupiter.
:2tsup:

Here's what it might look like inside:

[cassca]

dieter VS Dicktools ;-)
it's more easy for buying from france...

HSS no ..thank you ;-)

i'm not carpenter or woodworker... i juste like a good and prety tools...

i don't need many tools .... so maybe i buy Oire Nomi Suminagashi ...
:q

[Pam]

dieter VS Dicktools ;-)
it's more easy for buying from france...

HSS no ..thank you ;-)

i'm not carpenter or woodworker... i juste like a good and prety tools...

i don't need many tools .... so maybe i buy Oire Nomi Suminagashi ...
:q

Sure, buy anything you want.

Pam

[yojimbo]

Anyone interested in continuing the butterfly thread? Here or elsewhere?

[prozac]

Anyone interested in continuing the butterfly thread? Here or elsewhere?

I am very interested to continue lurking if that helps. This is very interesting. Any reason why you must use japanese chisels on this style joint, or is it all about what is right?

Welcome to the forums Cassca.

prozac

[cassca]

you can continue here if you want it, it's very interesting

[Yxoc]

G'Day,
I'm just lurking here trying to learn so I'd love to hear a discussion on the use of dovetail keys.

Coxy

[Pam]

Any reason why you must use japanese chisels on this style joint, or is it all about what is right?

No, not really, no one shape chisel is superior for this job. It's possible that the shorter Japanese crank necks would be better for cleaning out the insert mortise since the western style are way too big, long, generally unwieldy.

Pam

[prozac]

Thanks Pam.

prozac

[yojimbo]

Hi, Prozac, Coxy

No, I don't see, either, that there's any reason at all to use only Japanese chisels. I notice plenty of articles in mainstream woodworking magazines which use traditionally Western tools.

It's just that I prefer Japanese tools in my work -- as, I assume, do most people on this forum.

I had only brought it up here because of my current work on a commission from a Japanese antique dealer who'd like some ready (and cheaper) product for her store. An associate and I are taking her antique Japanese beams (cut to about seventeen inches high), and carving/joining them into low stools.

Since the beams are old, and have been cut down, they have quite a few deep cracks and checks in them, and she specifically asked that they be held with butterflies. Influenced much, I imagine, by George Nakashima's use of them, as well as their prevalence in much Japanese carpentry.

So far we have five beam sections: there is one stool into which I've carved an angle down from the seat, then back out for the base: left very random and primitive looking, but carefully smoothed so as not to catch on the clothing of anyone sitting on it. For that one we've used a variety of woods for the many keys that beam required. Zebra wood, African Blackwood, and a few off-cuts I had that I can't identify (I'm still sorely lacking in that department).

The other four beams will be joined, two each, into double stools -- a wider sitting area (the client's standard is no less than 9 1/2 inches for a seat -- which is kind of narrow [ouch], but works). One of these pair also has many cracks (not as many as the timber used for the single seat), which will be supported by butterflies, and she would like us to use a very deep butterfly on either side to serve as handles by which to carry them. This, I think, will necessitate carving a declivity beneath the key for a better grip.

The second two-beam stool is much more sound, and won't require as many keys, though we'll probably add a few more than is actually necessary, just to keep the look consistent -- as well as to prevent future checking.

The main issue with the beams -- for me, as my primary business is refinishing -- is that they're beautifully laced with powder beetle tracks, and these must be made as clean as possible (they're amazingly smooth) so that when I apply the finish it doesn't loosen any grit or sawdust or sand in the cracks and tracks and pull it to the surface. I need to be able to apply three coats and come away with a perfect finish. This will require using a tiny brush to apply the finish in places where there's a lot of torn grain (again, smoothed so as to avoid discomfort and inconvenience to anyone who plants their butt on one) and bug tracks, so the finish doesn't build up too much and seal (thereby obscuring) the definition of the imperfections.

Sorry this is so long: just thought it might help to explain how the keys came up in the first place. And, as Pam recognized, it didn't quite apply to Cassca's original question because cutting the recesses for the keys is quite different from cutting mortises.

What are you all working on, and how much/under what circumstances do you use they keys? Would love to hear about it.

Becky

[prozac]

Hi Becky, I see that Pat and Steves Restaurant is still for sale.

Would love to see some photos of your descriptions. I have not heard about "butterfly" joints before and would like to see more examples. They appear wonderfully simple.

prozac

[NeilS]

One of these pair also has many cracks (not as many as the timber used for the single seat), which will be supported by butterflies, and she would like us to use a very deep butterfly on either side to serve as handles by which to carry them. This, I think, will necessitate carving a declivity beneath the key for a better grip.

Becky - is the 'declivity' to give a better grip for the butterfly or the stool user? Understood if the latter, not so clear if for the first reason.

Neil

[yojimbo]

Becky - is the 'declivity' to give a better grip for the butterfly or the stool user? Understood if the latter, not so clear if for the first reason.

Neil

Hi, Neil --
Yes, it's to aid the stool lifter/user in getting a grip, as it were.

AND...!!!
Prozac: who are you?!

Hi Becky, I see that Pat and Steves Restaurant is still for sale.
Yes, it's still for sale (I think -- the sign's been there so long, I stopped seeing it), but you know -- this is a fishing village. They're fishing.

No, really -- who are you?

And why are you stalking Pat & Steve's (where I just had lunch today!).

You're wiggin' me out, man.

B

[prozac]

Becky, you had the flounder sandwich, and sat in the 3rd booth in.

prozac

[prozac]

OK the jig is up, I'm guessing.

prozac

[yojimbo]

Nice try. I had a short stack (at three in the afternoon), and sat at a table.

You are so busted.

[prozac]

C'mon Becky and Pam, we want to know more about these butterfly mortices. Anyone oput there......?

prozac

[NeilS]

....we want to know more about these butterfly mortices. Anyone out there......?

Also known as a dovetail key, see Fig. 290 and 291 on this web page:

http://sawdustmaking.com/woodjoints/dovetails.htm

Neil

[prozac]

Thanks Neil.

prozac

[yojimbo]

Sorry, Prozac --

Have been so busy cutting butterfly keys, haven't been in to check this page... how's that for dumb?

The batches we're doing, as I described (years, and years ago) are going into 17"-high sections of antique Japanese beams. So the cutting and fitting has had to be quite customized for each key, and fit the slightly rounded exterior of the beam.

The beams themselves are bug-damaged Matsu (I think) -- Japanese pine, which is harder than most. But the damage points are quite soft, so cutting into them has been quite the challenge.

The keys are cut from various exotic woods, some of which are quite finicky about being refined, so all keys are being cut with thin bladed Japanese saws. The edges are angled in slightly, as described, and they'll be glued (regular old carpenter's white glue -- nothing fancy) and pounded into place -- wait, that's gently pounded.

Anything else I can tell you? Hasn't anyone else got some cool pieces that use butterfly keys?

Happy to answer any further questions -- keeps me from chiseling out tiny little corners in antique beams...

Becky

[NeilS]

And, here is a four-part tutorial:

Butterfly Key Joinery - Part I (http://www.rockler.com/blog/index.cfm?commentID=46)
Butterfly Key Joinery - Part II (http://www.rockler.com/blog/index.cfm?commentID=48)
Butterfly Key Joinery - Part III (http://www.rockler.com/blog/index.cfm?commentID=53)
Butterfly Key Joinery - Part IV (http://www.rockler.com/blog/index.cfm?commentID=56)

There is are little more involved on curved surfaces :), but the principle is the same.

Neil

[prozac]

Photos please Becky, some WIP pics for us dumb Aussies that need pictures.

prozac

[yojimbo]

Will try to do shortly: remember, these stools are a little eccentric (the wish of the client), but oddly comfortable, and kinda cool.

No finish on yet, so contrasting wood(s) of keys won't show as well.

No keys glued yet, but will show you them set in loosely.

Glad to oblige.

Soon,
Becky

[yojimbo]

Only a month late... got photos. One finished stool; one unfinished (am in the process).

But when I tried to upload the shots from my hard drive, the system hung for twenty minutes, then reported a "missing security token." Eh, what?

So I sent an e-mail to the admin, stating the problem: was told that was invalid, as well, so am assuming it didn't get through.

I really want to post these shots and hear your feedback, good, bad, or indifferent.

Any advice?

Thanks,
Becky

[Sheets]

Becky,

Its almost worth it to open an account with Photobucket or some such on-line gallery and then link you pics to the forum. These days, the camera resolutions are so high that it is a pain in the ????:~ having to resize (lower the res) so the forum will accept it. I'm not sure that was the problem in your case - it usually says if the file is too large (which it always is).

Steve

[yojimbo]

They are high-res shots... maybe that was the issue.

Will look into photobucket.

Thanks, Steve.
Becky

[yojimbo]

Okay -- I think these are okay...

The single stool has a deeper undercut than I would have liked, but my first carvings, which were a bit geometric to show the grain differently -- well, everyone hated them, so I had to pare down to a shape that was more traditional, and more in keeping with the client's examples. Basically, I feel it's 'way too narrow now, but you can't put wood back. (I hate that.) Speaking of not putting wood back, there are a few odd cut-ins in it: these are areas where the beetle damage caused the wood to just blow away in a mild breeze. Carving and finishing such a bug-damaged beam was a challenge: especially getting the finish to not pool in the beetle-trails.

The finish is Waterlox: three coats of sealer; two coats satin. It's still a bit shiny for me, but should mellow out over time.

The butterflies are African Blackwood, Lacewood, Zebra, and something else I never could identify.

The double stool's butterflies are all teak, as are the handles. It's currently being finished. If you're interested in follow-ups, I'll be glad to post.

There's a second double being worked on: the butterflies will be all Purpleheart. Have a dreadful premonition the client will hate it. As we might, once it's done... Will post photos when it's done, so you can all mock our really poor choice of wood...

Thanks, folks. For your patience, and your input.

And thanks, Steve, for sending me to photobucket. Am assuming it's worked...

[Sheets]

Wow, that's very nice work and very interesting. The pics come out teeny (basically thumbnail size right within the forum - so not linked to photobucket), but enough as is to show the works' shapes/colours. It would be nice to see them full size for a better look at the details. I hope you had some fun with these, as I can imagine the frustrations working without exact plans (like most custom work is).

Steve

[prozac]

Great work Becky! Would say more if I could see the photos better. If you would like me to try to re post the photos then email me. If you think photobucket would be better then maybe Sheets could help out as I am not that clever. What we can see looks very good.

[NeilS]

Hi Becky

The double stool has excellent balance, proportions and details... very George Nakashima like!

I agree with you about the single stool, however, it does evoke reference to those wooden kokeshi dolls that the Japanese make and love... so they may have a very ready market if you call those your kokeshi stools..:)

I look forward to seeing further work.

Neil

[yojimbo]

Thanks, guys. Very tough to do... Keys, of course, dictated by the worst checking, then by need for balance.

Of course, I thought I was linking to photobucket. Steve -- any advice? I entered the http://etc line ("direct link")... but of course, even if it'd worked, that would only take you to the miniaturized photo anyway, not the original size.

What do I do, Sensei? Click what? Link who? Shut what??!!

Thanks,
Becky

[yojimbo]

Hi, Neil,

Thanks for the Nakashima reference -- it's what our client really is looking for, though we made the choice to build it this way free of Nakashima thoughts. Glad it turned out that way. When it's finished and the handles are set, I'll send further pix, as we did a little cheat inside the existing mortise which makes it look as though the handles go straight through both stools.

It also has a nice stagger to it: the beams (consecutive cuts) don't quite line up, so they kind of look like they're taking a step forward. Don't think I quite captured that in the hasty photos.

Kokeshi stools, eh? Personally, those things give me the creeps, but it might be a catching marketing ploy, eh?

I agree: I was very unhappy with the narrowing of the slope, but since my first carving was universally loathed and despised by all who saw it... well... next time it'll be better.

Apparently the client wants as many of these as we can supply (the we is me and the colleague I've joined forces with to crank these out faster -- a separate business from my refinishing), so I'll have plenty more opportunities to screw up -- I mean, correct the kokeshi look.

Might even try my original idea again, only more formal/less organic than my original attempt.

Thanks for the boost!
Becky

[prozac]

Hi, Neil,

Thanks for the Nakashima reference .........--

I would have mentioned it also but I don't know who he is. Lol. You artistic types, you've lost me.

[yojimbo]

Why, you HEATHEN! In the words of the late, great Casey Stengel, "You could look it up."

I'm shocked. Shocked. And appalled. Did I mention appalled?

Really, Prozac, do yourself a favor, and check him out. Also his wonderful book, "The Soul of a Tree." George Nakashima. Remember that name.

I promise, he'll be well worth the effort.
Best,
Becky

[prozac]

Why, you HEATHEN! In the words of the late, great Casey Stengel, "You could look it up."

I'm shocked. Shocked. And appalled. Did I mention appalled?

Really, Prozac, do yourself a favor, and check him out. Also his wonderful book, "The Soul of a Tree." George Nakashima. Remember that name.

I promise, he'll be well worth the effort.
Best,
Becky

Jesus Becky, you're a bit harsh! That's really upset me, didn't I tell you I couldn't read?

[yojimbo]

Ooops. Sorry. Completely slipped my mind.

But there, there, don't let it get you down: I can't write.

(Gee... didn't you tell me never to mention that reading thing on the Forum?)

[prozac]

Ooops. Sorry. Completely slipped my mind.

But there, there, don't let it get you down: I can't write.

(Gee... didn't you tell me never to mention that reading thing on the Forum?)

Becky, yeah I sent you an email about it. You did get it?

[yojimbo]

That thing? Yeah. Couldn't read it... oh, wait -- that's you.

[prozac]

Lol.

[Sheets]

Becky,

I'm no expert with Photobucket (nor the composition and heat treating of steel), but all I did was create a slide-show (I know, starts to equal the time you might have spent just re-sizing the pics for the forum - but the pic size can be much larger, so there is still an advantage) with the pics you want to link to. Open the slide show in a separate window in your browser, copy that link and paste it into the forum so people go right to and only to those pics and not any others you might have (eventually) in your album. There is most likely an other and better way to do it, but I quit when I'm ahead (or clearly beaten).

Steve

p.s., this should be a link to one pic in my album (following my own directions) http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii152/Sheets_album/PICT0233.jpg?t=1221746555

[Sheets]

Becky,

I'm no expert with Photobucket (nor the composition and heat treating of steel), but all I did was create a slide-show (I know, starts to equal the time you might have spent just re-sizing the pics for the forum - but the pic size can be much larger, so there is still an advantage) with the pics you want to link to. Open the slide show in a separate window in your browser, copy that link and paste it into the forum so people go right to and only to those pics and not any others you might have (eventually) in your album. There is most likely an other and better way to do it, but I quit when I'm ahead (or clearly beaten).

Steve

p.s., this should be a link to one pic in my album (following my own directions) http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii152/Sheets_album/PICT0233.jpg?t=1221746555

[yojimbo]

Wow. So emphatic were you, Steve, you posted it twice Twice, I tell you. That's two times. Two. Times.

You redundant fellow, you. Thanks: will give it a shot (er... try, that is).

Nice kanna. What's the underside like?

Becky

[yojimbo]

Well... Here's the link:http://s528.photobucket.com/albums/dd327/yojimbo_pix/?action=view&current=9e161030.pbw

But I gotta say, it wouldn't let me choose "absolutely no freaking style at all" -- and defaulted to this tunnel vision nightmare of antique Japanese beams flying at you.

What say, Steve-o -- Any way to modify that obnoxious presentation?

Thanks,
Becky

[Sheets]

I deleted the second post of the duplicates (or was it the first?).

You should be able to log into your album and choose edit for the slide show. In the meantime, I just clicked on one of the pics in the show before it flew out of sight and it opened by itself in a second window where I could choose to see the pics one at a time. There is also the option to "view the album" (but as I said, you may eventually not want people to have access to all your pics - maybe too many and hard for people to find some you are referring to).
When you click on your slide show, it will open in a new window. Click "Full Size" and it should open in another new window. Copy that link and paste it here in the forum - ala-
http://s528.photobucket.com/pbwidget.swf?pbwurl=http://w528.photobucket.com/albums/dd327/yojimbo_pix/9e161030.pbw

Steve

p.s., here's the flip side:
http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii152/Sheets_album/PICT0232.jpg?t=1221770317

[yojimbo]

Trying again...

http://s528.photobucket.com/albums/dd327/yojimbo_pix/?action=view&current=916.jpg
... which URL opens the icon you see, which says "Highslide JS" -- which I've never seen before. I clicked it, and it took forever to load whatever it said it was loading, so I opened it in a new tab, and there was the photobucket page, all nice and un-styled.

Thanks, Steve.
Becky

[Sheets]

Actually, its a closed loop (photobucket). Even if you open the slideshow full size and paste that link, clicking on any of the pics takes you back to the album (and all that's in it). I guess you'd have to open each pic separately and link each one (not good for a lot of pics) like I did with my mentori kanna. So, don't put anything in your album you don't want the world to find.

Btw, my wife really like the stools. I can see some pressure (on me) in the future to produce a copy cat. It won't be with ancient wood beams though, just what I can salvage from what's still lying around here after hurricane Juan in 2003 (although if I wait too long it will all be rotted away).

Again, beautiful work.

Steve

[yojimbo]

So... you're saying you can see them all, right?

Nothing in the slide show but the stools...

And my next task is using native wood: there just aren't enough 150-yr-old Japanese beams in the States. Funny, that.

I'll keep you apprised of the natives. Mostly wild cherry, locust (very hard!), and cedar.

Started work on a hunk of locust today. The piece was cut months and months ago; been drying out of the rain for months: when I stripped the bark and got to the phloem, it was still wringing wet. Amazing stuff, locust.

Do your native wood. It'll probably check nicely as it dries, leaving you opportunity for butterfly keys, and the carving/leaving-it-as-is possibilities are limitless.

Honored your wife liked them.

Thanks, Steve.
Becky

[Pam]

Hey, Becky, nice looking stools. How are those endgrain butterflies working out?

Pam

[yojimbo]

Hi, Pam -- refresh my memory, please? Was it that we were thinking of sticking a hunk of elm through the entire pair? (We didn't.)

Otherwise can't recall discussions of endgrain...

... Breathing too many solvents...

[Pam]

Hi, Pam -- refresh my memory, please? Was it that we were thinking of sticking a hunk of elm through the entire pair? (We didn't.)

Otherwise can't recall discussions of endgrain...

I don't know that we discussed end grain or not, but in photo 6 you show what looks like the top of a stool with two keys in the end grain across fairly large cracks. Generally, I'd be leary of doing that because I'd expect the end grain to tear out eventually; but I could be really wrong.

Pam

[yojimbo]

Hi, Pam.

Sorry, I was being dense. :doh:

The chamfered edges help a lot with preventing tear-out, and I've used grain filler on the ends -- especially since there's so much powder beetle damage -- and many coats of Waterlox (two or three of the medium sheen sealer [which can also be your final coat], and then two or more of the satin sheen. Must use the satin since there's no hope of rubbing out the finish on these beams.)

They've been hauled around my temporary workspace quite a bit, and sat on plenty -- both as "test fitting" and just for a place to sit down -- and unless really abused (errant tool strike, carelessness when refining the top, etc.), there's been no tear-out at all.

The keys were set firm, and then the tops sanded again, from 120 up to 400 grit. Then 400 grit sandings between finishes: just enough to smooth the intermediate layers. Absolutely no sanding of the final coat.

Does that answer the question? (And sorry I was so slow on the uptake here...)

Becky

[yojimbo]

Ooops -- one more thing.

On the double stool, I had a disaster with the grain filler: despite having weighted and staked down the tarps enclosing my temporary workspace, a monsoon-like storm blew through and ripped the tarp from its moorings, soaking the grain-filled top of the double.

When I put the finish on, the grain filler came up almost white, in contrast to the honey-colored wood around it. Once I knew I had to take the surface down, I used a sander starting with 80 grit -- wanted to aggressively remove a good 1/8 inch of wood to get below the damage and let it all dry out (which it's doing now).

There were one or two stubborn spots, and I considered taking a small kanna to them (maybe 34mm), but was too afraid of tear-out, and so stuck with my trusty two sanders. (I use a Festool circular/variable orbit to remove lots of wood, and a Porter Cable 330 palm sander for the really fine work.)

So, yes, in that case I was very worried about tear-out. But so far, so good -- just no blades to refine the endgrain. The wood's too old and unpredictable.

The sides, of all of them, however, were planed rather than sanded down, then given a really fine sanding to make sure they're perfectly smooth to sit on and have no bits that'll catch clothing, bare legs, etc.