Protecting blades from rust

[elanjacobs]

Hi all

I'm relatively new to the Japanese tool scene and I'm wondering what the best way to stop rust on my chisel blades is (preferably without oiling them after each use). I've noticed that they seem to rust much quicker than western blades - is this because of the steel or just my poor storage?

Thanks in advance

[Des.K.]

Hi and welcome.

We don't do anything special to our chisels, saws or plane blades to stop rust, but here they're all used daily all day, so rust probably doesn't have a chance to form. I use both Western and Japanese chisels and planes, and I really haven't noticed any real difference in how quickly the rust gremlins attack. Humidity is sky high at the moment, and I still don't have a problem with rust.

The main thing is, I think, to pack the chisels away after use and not leave them out in the open if possible. You should also make sure you wipe off any sweat or other hand marks where you've touched the metal blade section at the end of the day. Also a light wipe with some oil every now and then certainly would be welcomed by the chisels.

Regards
Des

[Claw Hama]

My mate So who sells Japanese tools in Sydney said I should clean off any varnish and rub my hands over my tools so they get that fine blackish purple stain on them it has a special name that I can't remember. It's the japanese name for black patina. I would only oil them if they were getting thick brown rust. Do you live near the beach? If you do that might mean you need a little more oil perhaps.

[yojimbo]

Nice tip, Hama -- never heard that. (Also am useless in remembering the name of that patina... all I keep coming up with is kasumi, which is all wrong.)

I live in a high humidity area, surrounded by salt water (yes, I'm trapped on a desert island... naw), and I find the rust builds up fairly quickly.

I don't like to oil my tools because a) it's too easy to transfer that oil to the wood, which messes up my primary profession, which is refinishing, and b) it has to be completely cleaned off before sharpening on waterstones. That said, I see little alternative to doing it anyway. I use a thin coat of camilia oil, and before sharpening give it a quick wipe with acetone -- which I hate to do, but the stuff's so volatile it's gone before it can really penetrate.

Because I'm basically a one-person shop, and have a very broad variety of chisel sizes and profiles, many of my chisels go unused for long periods of time. These I both oil and cover.

As for your initial question, elanjacobs, I suspect (with no proof at all) it's because of the high iron content in the Japanese chisels.

There is a product (the name of which escapes me, but which I'll try and check tomorrow when I'm in the shop again) -- possibly called Rust-Stop, which I do use on my Western chisels and saws (and a few of my Japanese saws) because they're used far less often. This stuff cleans off the rust, and leaves a mystery coating (quite effective, but suspect [to my purist's eyes]) which has been quite effective at slowing (quite a bit) the appearance of further rust.

But, again, if you use waterstones for sharpening, you'll have to clean this stuff off (maybe with laquer thinner if acetone doesn't appeal to you?) before using the stone, or the stone will be contaminated.

There is a specially made paper, which tools from certain makers are shipped wrapped in, which is called something like ferro-coat, which is treated to prevent rust. I save all this stuff. I even looked into purchasing some -- trouble is the company that makes (or distributes? can't recall) it only sells it in huge, industrial-sized quantities, and it's not all that cheap. Would be great if someone like So or Harrelson Stanley carried the stuff in smaller quantities, so we could all avail ourselves of it. It works better than anything else, and doesn't seem to lose its chemical properties over time and use.

Good luck.

Becky

[Sheets]

[Would be great if someone like So or Harrelson Stanley carried the stuff in smaller quantities, so we could all avail ourselves of it.]

They do, but you have to buy a tool to get some.:U

Steve

p.s., I once read a tip from Lee Valley tools: for long(er) term storage of tools, wipe some tung oil on the metal parts. It dries after a couple of days and forms a moisture resistant coating which is easy to remove.

[Pam]

I've found that storing tools in wooden boxes eliminates rust problems.

Pam

[Groggy]

As Pam says, wooden boxes definitely help. I think this is mainly because they are temperature stable and condensation is limited.

There are also some other aids people use to protect tools, like mothballs or such items to displace the air (and therefore moisture). Lee Valley are selling corrosion inhibitors (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=3&p=59367&cat=51&ap=3) you can put in your toolbox, these leave a coating on your tools that is supposed to keep rust at bay. They last about two years.

[NeilS]

But, again, if you use waterstones for sharpening, you'll have to clean this stuff off (maybe with laquer thinner if acetone doesn't appeal to you?) before using the stone, or the stone will be contaminated.

Becky - how serious is the waterstone contamination problem? Not having a ready source of camellia oil, I use what I have to hand: mostly my woodturning polish of beeswax/carnauba/turpentine on my woodworking tools and olive oil on my Japanese knives in the kitchen. I find the kitchen knives and saws are most susceptible to corrosion.

So far I haven't detect any problem with my waterstones (man-made or natural) when sharpening these blades. However, the residue left on the blades by the time I get to sharpen them would be very thin having used them first.

Perhaps having immersed the waterstones thoroughly in water before using them (particularly the coarser stones) then any residue of oils or waxes are repelled causing them to float on top of the water film rather than penetrating the stone. I imagine very small traces of oil/wax would still be forced down through the water/slurry film onto the surface grit and adhere but these particles will break away in time.

Maybe mineral oils are more of a problem.

On the other hand, oil or wax on a dry waterstone is a recipe for disaster! The contaminated stone will then repel water and stop the well known waterstone action. :C

Becky and others - have you had a different experience?

Neil

[munruben]

Yes it would seem that storing in a wooden box helps the rust problem but I find that using the chisels constantly stops rust from forming on them. Tung oil sounds a good idea.

[elanjacobs]

thanks for all the advice. i've got them in a plastic drill box that i've fitted out with ply placements for each tool and lined with some scrap leather. i also threw about 10 packs of silica gel scavenged from vitamin bottles. i dont really want to make a full wooden box for them as i carry them to trade school and i'm on a push bike so i need to keep the weight low (if you call 6kg low :p)

would a handful of sawdust thrown in do the trick instead?

[Pusser]

Becky - ... Not having a ready source of camellia oil, I...
Neil

Coles and Woolworths both sell Camelia oil (and extra virgin camelia oil) and it is about 25% of the carba tec price.

[Pam]

thanks for all the advice. i've got them in a plastic drill box that i've fitted out with ply placements for each tool and lined with some scrap leather. i also threw about 10 packs of silica gel scavenged from vitamin bottles. i dont really want to make a full wooden box for them as i carry them to trade school and i'm on a push bike so i need to keep the weight low (if you call 6kg low :p)

would a handful of sawdust thrown in do the trick instead?

You may want to check out Paulownia, a very light weight, strong wood used by many Japanese tool vendors. It would be very interesting to build a small, portable tool box out it that you could put on any rack you may have on the bike. It could be modelled on the standard Japanese portable tool box.

Pam

[NeilS]

Coles and Woolworths both sell Camelia oil (and extra virgin camelia oil) and it is about 25% of the carba tec price.

Pusser - Thanks for that advice. Can you suggest which section I would find it in?

Neil

[Claw Hama]

The plastic box may be sweeting in the high humidity and saw dust/shavings unless they are very dry could make it worse. Making a lightweight wooden box could be the go. My chisels are just kept in a wooden draw in my bench and have never had a hint of rust on them. I am maybe 3km as the crow flys from the beach. As the guys say above a light wipe with one of the light oils, you could wipe it off immeadiatly after putting it on as the residue should be enough to stop the rust and be negligable on the water stone after you have used the chisel. I have washed my water stones with a little dishwashing liquid on the odd occasion they get a little grubby. It cleans the stone and just breaks the surface tension on the stone and lets it get wet a little quicker. Only use a tiny bit of detergent.

[Claw Hama]

I have just read up on the rust issue in my Japanese tool book "Japanese Woodworking Tools" by Toshio Odate. He says to clean rust off you get 4 - 5 rice staws bent over several times, wet them, dip them in ash and proceed to rub the rust off. Rinse off, dry off and then rub in a little vegetable oil. They don't use sandpaper because it leaves scratches. I would maybe go some brasso on a cloth. Acctually brasso is quite good at leaving a rust/corrossion slowing film too and once buffed off would not stain or mark your work. Good luck.

[elanjacobs]

i'm on a racing bike so no rack :( it goes in my back pack so small and light is a mustdoes anyone know of a substance that will dry the air out that I can put in? maybe some raw rice... :p

[Pusser]

Pusser - Thanks for that advice. Can you suggest which section I would find it in?

Neil

I first found it in the gourmet foods section but I think last time in coles it was with the other salad oils near the vast aray of olive oils. It is in a tall narrow square bottle.

[yojimbo]

Hey, NeilS, et al --

Sorry for slow reply (been checking you out through HSD for that Pat & Steve's question in the other thread...)

Never used wax; as the guys said above, I wouldn't want wax on the stones, or the lacquer on some new blades. The camillia oil wipes off nicely.

I use paulownia whenever I can to store tools, though it's murder to get here in the states. I sometimes buy Japanese scroll boxes for my chisels, but you can only keep two chisels (end to end) in them at most, unless you get into padding, etc.