Ubeaut Sanding Sealer vs Stewmac sanding sealer

[gbx78]

Hi gurus

I recently went to Carb-a-tec (kid in a candy store!!) and bought some sanding sealer as recommend by this site and members.

Im going to use this either before i stain (again with ubeaut color dyes) or even after. I noticed the instructions for the Ubeaut sanding sealer says only one application is required.

I notice the stewmac one says 12 coats over a period of a couple days (or something like that) and the stewmac one goes clear and hard for a durable base.

Does the Ubeaut one do the same? as in go hard and clear? Anyone used this before? its simple to apply (havent done it yet, need a weekend for it) but just wondering will it dry out hard. Much like the sanding sealer on my ibanez body took a very long time to sand out to raw wood.

I guess my question leads to another question.. im concerned due to the soft basswood my end finish result will still be soft. as in not hard durable finish. (i will be dying, sand sealer (or reverse), then clear gloss and polish etc..

At which stage does a hard finish come from? is it the clear? the solid color if used? or is it the sealer underneath that protects the wood from easiler beeing marked etc.. ??

not sure if that was a clear explanation hehe

ok im ready to hand the talking stick to someone if they want to speak :D

[Sebastiaan56]

Hi gurus

I recently went to Carb-a-tec (kid in a candy store!!) and bought some sanding sealer as recommend by this site and members.

Im going to use this either before i stain (again with ubeaut color dyes) or even after. I noticed the instructions for the Ubeaut sanding sealer says only one application is required.

I notice the stewmac one says 12 coats over a period of a couple days (or something like that) and the stewmac one goes clear and hard for a durable base.

Does the Ubeaut one do the same? as in go hard and clear? Anyone used this before? its simple to apply (havent done it yet, need a weekend for it) but just wondering will it dry out hard. Much like the sanding sealer on my ibanez body took a very long time to sand out to raw wood.

I guess my question leads to another question.. im concerned due to the soft basswood my end finish result will still be soft. as in not hard durable finish. (i will be dying, sand sealer (or reverse), then clear gloss and polish etc..

At which stage does a hard finish come from? is it the clear? the solid color if used? or is it the sealer underneath that protects the wood from easiler beeing marked etc.. ??

not sure if that was a clear explanation hehe

ok im ready to hand the talking stick to someone if they want to speak :D

Hi gbx

Ive not used the Stewmac product but the UBeaut is terrific. My understanding is that it is based on shellac. Ive used it for turnings and it brings the knap up beautifully, this is then sanded back for increasingly silky / sheen surface before commencing the actual finishing. I have not stained over it but its on my 2do list.

The hard finish comes several weeks after you have finished applying whatever finish you use. I hear this applies the sprayed finishes, I know it for shellac and TruOil. The sealer is exactly what it implies, it seals the timber, no more.

Consider the stick passed on..

[oz tradie]

I don't know about the ubeaut sealer and interested to know if that sits in the same seat as other
sealers I've tried............................

Most sanding sealers kill the depth of figure you see in highly figured tops due to the amount of
milkiness they impart on the workpiece.
The golden rule if you're going to use a sanding sealer, use as little as humanly possible.

I prefer the u-beaut amber shellac thinned down as a sealer. Bloody terrific and doesn't cloud up.

[peterbrown]

The Stewmac sanding sealer you are refering to from what I can tell is the waterbased laquer sanding sealer? as far as I know is not a sandinging sealer in the traditional sence. It is more like a laquer, however WB laquer works differently, and i think what they call sanding sealer is more like a normal WB laquer with increased solids so the finish builds faster. they provide a separate topcoat which has the real gloss sheen, but builds much thinner.

I personally lay down a thinned shellac coat under my WB laquer and have had some great results under the WB stuff. the shellac gives it a nice warm tone (visual) and you still get a pop in the figure.

If you are using WB products with your finish, make sure that is all you use. That is, don't put anything water based over anything oil based. You can mix them, but you need something to bind them together and it gets messy. Best to stick to WB stuff if your laquer is going to be WB. The beauty of shellac is that it is compatible with both.

I have simplified something that is very complex. Best to test on a piece of scrap and do an adhesion test if you are unsure....Hope this helps,

Peter

[old_picker]

found the stewmac colortone SS pretty good actually
dries dead clear - no milkyness at all

just done a pair of walnur / sapele thinlines and they took a lot to get a level surface

[ubeaut]

The U-Beaut Sanding Sealer Is what I call a traditional sealer. It's designed to be applied in one coat left to dry and then sanded with your finest grit paper 1200 or above. The sealer raises the nap of the grain after sanding and makes it stand up and go hard. The fine sand knocks the nibs off and gives you the ultimate base coat to build your polish on.

Usually only one coat is needed. You can use water based dye or stain over the top of it. The sealer won't change the colour of the wood any more then wetting it with water and will not muddy the grain.

Most commercial sealers are not so much a sealer as they are a form of filler. 10 coats of almost anything will fill the pores of most timbers. But 10 coats of a water based (I presume poly) on an acoustic guitar and I would reckon the resonance qualities would suffer somewhat.Not a problem on a solid body of course.

If staining or dying over the sealer use incompatible finish ie use anything but a water based finish. If you stain with an alcohol stain you can use a turps or water based finish but not Shellac or lacquer as the stain will bleed into the finish.

Think the rest has been answered already.

Hope this is of some help.

Cheers - Neil :U

[mongrel]

Hey!,
I used the waterbased sanding sealer and lacquer from stewmac on Lil mongrels build. However, I used shellac as a TRUE sanding sealer prior to the final coat application.
The stewmac sanding sealer, to me was more of a bulking agent, used to get down the heavier base coats prior the final finishing coats. I used a spoon as a dipper and when I left the remanats on it to dry, the sanding sealer would peel off in a single vinyl type rubbery, but tough sheet, very cool. The lacquer, however, would chip and break apart, a sure sign of significantly harder stuff.
To me the phrase "sanding sealer" is the use of some type of product to raise and hold the knap (or is it nap) of the timber to allow said nap (or knap) to be sanded off. Shellac is great at this as its cheap, it sets hard and clear, and it's quick - alcohol bsed instead of water or oil based. I sanded my sanding sealer down to 400 grit and is was silky smooth.

[gbx78]

*grabs talking stick*

Hi guys, cool thanks, that clarifies it a lot more.

I guess when u spend soooo much time and effort stripping a gtr body (pain but satisfying) you want to make sure you dont stuff it by using the wrong method and/or products.. BUT saying that, i guess good ol sandpaper can fix anything in the this scenario if i stuff it hehehe :)

Thanks again
*places talking stick down*

[gbx78]

The Stewmac sanding sealer you are refering to from what I can tell is the waterbased laquer sanding sealer? as far as I know is not a sandinging sealer in the traditional sence. It is more like a laquer, however WB laquer works differently, and i think what they call sanding sealer is more like a normal WB laquer with increased solids so the finish builds faster. they provide a separate topcoat which has the real gloss sheen, but builds much thinner.

I personally lay down a thinned shellac coat under my WB laquer and have had some great results under the WB stuff. the shellac gives it a nice warm tone (visual) and you still get a pop in the figure.

If you are using WB products with your finish, make sure that is all you use. That is, don't put anything water based over anything oil based. You can mix them, but you need something to bind them together and it gets messy. Best to stick to WB stuff if your laquer is going to be WB. The beauty of shellac is that it is compatible with both.

I have simplified something that is very complex. Best to test on a piece of scrap and do an adhesion test if you are unsure....Hope this helps,

Peter

Hi Peter, soo my clear lacquer gloss needs to be water based then? no oil?.. i couldnt see any water based clear gloss's at bunnings today, they just had polyurethane gloss's that were oil based in a spray can ..

can you recommend anything particular. Ill be using the ubeat water based dyes, the ubeat sanding sealer ..so to keep it the same i need a WB clear gloss.

Thanks
George

[gbx78]

Hey!,
I used the waterbased sanding sealer and lacquer from stewmac on Lil mongrels build. However, I used shellac as a TRUE sanding sealer prior to the final coat application.
The stewmac sanding sealer, to me was more of a bulking agent, used to get down the heavier base coats prior the final finishing coats. I used a spoon as a dipper and when I left the remanats on it to dry, the sanding sealer would peel off in a single vinyl type rubbery, but tough sheet, very cool. The lacquer, however, would chip and break apart, a sure sign of significantly harder stuff.
To me the phrase "sanding sealer" is the use of some type of product to raise and hold the knap (or is it nap) of the timber to allow said nap (or knap) to be sanded off. Shellac is great at this as its cheap, it sets hard and clear, and it's quick - alcohol bsed instead of water or oil based. I sanded my sanding sealer down to 400 grit and is was silky smooth.

Hi mongrel

yes thats the impression im getting on what a sanding sealer is for... id like to give shellac flakes a go but i can only seem to find "orange" shellac and not a clear one? .. where do you get yours from?

Thanks
George

[Sebastiaan56]

Hi mongrel

yes thats the impression im getting on what a sanding sealer is for... id like to give shellac flakes a go but i can only seem to find "orange" shellac and not a clear one? .. where do you get yours from?

Thanks
George

Off the UBeaut website,

[gbx78]

Off the UBeaut website,

Hi Sebastiaan56, I literally was just looking at the website, and i noticed theres a Hard Shellac and a White Shellac.. it appears the White Shellac is what im really after not the sanding sealer i bought. I assume it dries clear? and it says on the website that it doesnt change the timber properties anymore than when its wet etc.. and is metho based so means i can use any clear gloss like oil based poly out of a can etc.. ??

Thanks all been a great help. I coulda read that in the first place hehe but its good to have someone confirm it for me.

[Sebastiaan56]

Yes mate the White shellac is the one to go for. http://www.ubeaut.com.au/dewaxed.html Knock it back with industrial metho (I go for about a 25% shellac, 75% metho) and it will raise the grain beautifully. The Sanding Sealer is there also but I think its a similar formula and you still get to use the rest of the bottle.

BTW Id go with Neil's spelling on nap, he is the one who knows what he is talking about,

[gbx78]

Yes mate the White shellac is the one to go for. http://www.ubeaut.com.au/dewaxed.html Knock it back with industrial metho (I go for about a 25% shellac, 75% metho) and it will raise the grain beautifully. The Sanding Sealer is there also but I think its a similar formula and you still get to use the rest of the bottle.

BTW Id go with Neil's spelling on nap, he is the one who knows what he is talking about,

Yeah thats the one i saw. I bought the sanding sealer but after a lot of talk above made me think i should have bought the White shellac as a better option

Cool thanks sebastiaan56 and to all.

Whats the shelf life of these bottles. Should i just keep the Sanding Sealer i bought or return it for the White Shellac. Seems the White Shellac like you have mentioned does the same as the Sanding Sealer but more and is better for what i want to do.

Ohh and to confirm i can use any Clear Gloss (oil based or whatever) over the top of the white shellac cant I?

Thanks
George

[gbx78]

The U-Beaut Sanding Sealer Is what I call a traditional sealer. It's designed to be applied in one coat left to dry and then sanded with your finest grit paper 1200 or above. The sealer raises the nap of the grain after sanding and makes it stand up and go hard. The fine sand knocks the nibs off and gives you the ultimate base coat to build your polish on.

Usually only one coat is needed. You can use water based dye or stain over the top of it. The sealer won't change the colour of the wood any more then wetting it with water and will not muddy the grain.

Most commercial sealers are not so much a sealer as they are a form of filler. 10 coats of almost anything will fill the pores of most timbers. But 10 coats of a water based (I presume poly) on an acoustic guitar and I would reckon the resonance qualities would suffer somewhat.Not a problem on a solid body of course.

If staining or dying over the sealer use incompatible finish ie use anything but a water based finish. If you stain with an alcohol stain you can use a turps or water based finish but not Shellac or lacquer as the stain will bleed into the finish.

Think the rest has been answered already.

Hope this is of some help.

Cheers - Neil :U

Hi Neil,

Thanks for that. Could you also comment on the above? .. Basically I have a body sanded to the raw timber. I want to dye it with the Ubeaut water dyes i bought. I know i can dye straight to the timber OR use the waterbased sanding sealer first then dye..regardless.. next, now due to the comments made by not mixing waterbased products and oil and spirit based products (thats to say use only one type throughout the whoel process) .. I cant use the sanding sealer as a base for the dye as well as use the white shellac after its dyed can i ?

I was thinking to use an oil based poly clear out of a can (cause its easily available at the hardware store) .. so begs my discussion, i can i just use the white shellac as Sebastiaan mentioned and i should be right to go with any clear gloss?

I know its an easy concept, and sometimes i analyse way too much and question to much i just like to make sure i fully understand the concepts etc..

Thanks to all again.

[peterbrown]

Hi Peter, soo my clear lacquer gloss needs to be water based then? no oil?.. i couldnt see any water based clear gloss's at bunnings today, they just had polyurethane gloss's that were oil based in a spray can ..

can you recommend anything particular. Ill be using the ubeat water based dyes, the ubeat sanding sealer ..so to keep it the same i need a WB clear gloss.

Thanks
George

George,

Your laquer doesn't need to be waterbased. Generally oil based lacquer/finish (except penetration oil finishes) can go over water based products without a problem. It's only if you intended to use WB laquer, then everything under it should be waterbased also if you can, ie grainfiller and sealers etc. For example if you have an oil based grainfiller say, then the oil residue in the filler can then "repel" the water based finish going over it since oil and water don't mix. This is not always the case, but it can happen and you take a risk attempting it without testing whatever it is your doing. The reverse is generally not as much of a problem (ie. oil based finish over water based grainfiller etc.)

I would recommend reading up on the topic for the "elaborated" version of what I have just "simplified".

And.. it never hurts to test. Most manufacturers recommend testing for compatibility before applying on the finish to the item.

Cheers,

peter

[Bluesy]

Yes mate the White shellac is the one to go for. http://www.ubeaut.com.au/dewaxed.html Knock it back with industrial metho (I go for about a 25% shellac, 75% metho) and it will raise the grain beautifully.

Pardon a newbie question, but what is industrial metho and how is it different to normal hardware store metho?

[gbx78]

George,

Your laquer doesn't need to be waterbased. Generally oil based lacquer/finish (except penetration oil finishes) can go over water based products without a problem. It's only if you intended to use WB laquer, then everything under it should be waterbased also if you can, ie grainfiller and sealers etc. For example if you have an oil based grainfiller say, then the oil residue in the filler can then "repel" the water based finish going over it since oil and water don't mix. This is not always the case, but it can happen and you take a risk attempting it without testing whatever it is your doing. The reverse is generally not as much of a problem (ie. oil based finish over water based grainfiller etc.)

I would recommend reading up on the topic for the "elaborated" version of what I have just "simplified".

And.. it never hurts to test. Most manufacturers recommend testing for compatibility before applying on the finish to the item.

Cheers,

peter

Hi Peter

Ohhhh i seeeee, you know i always thought that but wasnt sure as there is a lot of talk about all this. But yes ill read up some more and i intend of doing some test pieces first.

Thanks heaps, with every reply i get i learn soo much more. You guys are great, honestly.

Thanks again.
G

[mongrel]

Pardon a newbie question, but what is industrial metho and how is it different to normal hardware store metho?
Industrial Metho is >=95% alcohol. Cheapie stuff is topped off with water, which gets trapped and causes all sorts of horrible discolourations and defects in the finish. Just look on the bottle and it should give you a % alcohol content. The best I have been able to get locally is 95%, and it works OK for what I have used it for.


PS you don't learn JACK if you dont ask questions. There are no finger pointers or primadonnas on this list.:2tsup:

PPS Welcome to the list!

[gbx78]

Industrial Metho is >=95% alcohol. Cheapie stuff is topped off with water, which gets trapped and causes all sorts of horrible discolourations and defects in the finish. Just look on the bottle and it should give you a % alcohol content. The best I have been able to get locally is 95%, and it works OK for what I have used it for.


PS you don't learn JACK if you dont ask questions. There are no finger pointers or primadonnas on this list.:2tsup:

PPS Welcome to the list!

awwww group hug? lol hehe joking

but yes i can vouch for that, ive asked the most nooob questions and everyone has been more than happy to assist and clarify things. I wouldnt have got as far as i have without their help and encouragement.

[Bluesy]

thanks guys, I'll look for the strong stuff next time I'm in a store.