Sliding kitchen cupboard doors

[Lawrence SIX]

I am about to do a kitchen over, space is limited. In-line 5450mm long bench, 1 M high 700mm deep. I would like to have sliding doors as floor space is limited.
What is the best way of doing this? Pluming and electricals will stay the same. Old kitchen has been removed.

This is my first kitchen. HELP! I'm starting from scratch.

[seriph1]

there are rail systems for sliding doors .... I think Wilson and Bradley is represented in NSW - have a look at www.yellowpages.com.au for their address and number..... I "think" they will have what youre looking for - at the very least they will have a LOT of products you will find essential/interesting for building a kitchen.

Failing that - look up Hafele - they also supply to the industry, but are a LOT more exxie.

...and for what it's worth, sliding doors are a sensible idea in a kitchen and I think it's a shame more aren't used.

[Lawrence SIX]

I had a few reps come out to give me a quote, $40,000.00 to do the job. I just couldn't see where the money was going other than in their pockets. Not one of them came up with sliding doors, one did sugest pullout wire rack cupboards at about $1,000.00 each.:mad: :mad:

So I bought an air brad gun and said sod it I'll do it my self it can't be that hard.

A bit of batton work, some track top and bottum?? MDF doors, some sort of wheels and some paint. Spend a bit on a nice slab of timber and it should look great.:D

[seriph1]

reps measure by the foot e.g.

$2000 a ft X 10ft upper & lower cabinets = $20000 + appliances + plumbing + electrical + the massive foot they shove up your when there to see how much pain you will bear

I recall the first time I got a quote. I measured the distance they jumped when I used MY foot to kick the TWO idiots out of my home, a 1920 Calif Bungalow that I clearly told them, must be renovated in keeping with the home's style. They tried to convince me laminex was the go...when I suggested they were unfamiliar with the Arts & Crafts movement, the older fool replied "Our kitchens are built in a 5 acre factory by skilled men working on big machines." I realised later this was an attempt to convince me everything was top quality, not artsy fartsy & not made by some old blokes in their sheds. I still smile when I think of that short chat.

:)

build your own - bugger it up - fix it - enjoy it for years..... FYI those tall, pull-out wire racks are at WIlson and Bradley's.

[Markw]

Try a company called:

Hettich Australia
1 Herbert Place
Smithfield NSW 2164 Phone: 02 9616 7777
Fax: 02 9616 7778
E-Mail Hettich NSW

Have just had my kitchen renovated and they used fittings manufactured from the above which seem to be very good quality.

If they cant help they may be able to direct you elsewhere.

Alternately contact

Pennings Kitchens - Daniel Penning 4729 4486
My kitchen was labourously hand fitted to match my out of square house. The quality of this guys work was very good - certainly I rate him above all those commercial companies ie Nobby's etc.
Note I did not want a "timber" kitchen but a modern white high finish - each to their own.

Mark

[Sturdee]

.... FYI those tall, pull-out wire racks are at Wilson and Bradley's.

Not only do they have the wire baskets they also have some plastic fittings that allow you to fix the wire baskets to ordinary drawer pull out slide fittings. I got them and the baskets are much easier to use.


Peter.

[IanW]

Lawrence - I've done about 5 kitchen jobs, so I don't want to pretend I'm a pro. I have relented and gone with the 'standard' carcase construction of melamine-covered chipboard. Last one, I even went with plastic banding for the exposed edges, but it isn't that hard to edge with wood, and it's a lot more aesthetic. There's not much other choice for carcases in this country, though Brims are now making a melamine ply. It would have to be more durable than particle board, but haven't tried it, and it probably costs a LOT more.
Because I work on my Paddymalone, I rebated all the joints - this made glue-lines stronger, and having reference-surfaces made assembly a lot easier, but routing all those rebates took time. My sister just had a set of carcases done by a joinery (I did the doors, drawers and tops) and I noticed not a drop of glue was used - butt-joints and particleboard screws were all the go. Despite my scathing appraisal of the workmanship, once in place and fixed to a few strategic studs, it is just as solid as any other set due in no small part to the fact that the backs were inset melamine board of the same 16 mm thickness as the rest! I prefer 6mm waterproof ply - seems to be plenty stiff enough for bracing and closing the backs, and makes them a bit easier to heave in place.
The drawers and doors are where you can really go to town and make something a lot more attractive than those shaper-cut all-the-bloody-same commercial doors. I also favour wood counter tops, but you seem to get two opposing schools of thought on this. There was a recent long thread on the FWW forum and most were very anti-wood. The main objection was for durability and hygiene. On the first matter, I can only say I've seen both laminates and wood look terrible after abuse, whereas the longest-running wooden top I've installed (nearly 10 yrs) still looks great. It's Silky Oak, so not a super-tough wood, and it doesn't get special treatment. As for whether wood is less 'hygienic' than plastic - that's a matter of great debate, and a bit too complex to go into here.
Don't stint on the hardware - you can get very inexpensive drawer-slides, but the best cost only twice as much, and are a lot more durable (and quieter). I still dovetail all my drawers out of habit and conceit - surprising how many people actually notice. It's quick and easy, actually, since you put a false-front on, so both front and back d/tails can be full-lap.
My last job was for my own little bachelor-pad - used old, recycled Hoop for doors/drawer fronts and Rose-Alder for the top (bit soft - should have gone with my original choice, Jarrah). About 4 1/2 metres of bench cost me less than $700 in material and hardware (retail prices, too ). Takes a while, but you can get the carcases in place quickly, and fit them out at a more leisurely pace, though if you share living-space with a significant other, it might be a different story.
Have fun...

[Lawrence SIX]

Thanks Ian and all the other guys, I am looking to keep this project as simple as I can. Just a bit of battening to hold up the benchtop and support the rails for the sliding doors and a few shelves, perhaps a plinth for the base and bottum of the cupboards. 8 sliding doors 600mm x 900mm x 12mm MDF. Lots of paint on the doors and spend most of the bugget on the benchtop. I have not done any thing like this in my life. I can use a saw and a drill or a screwdriver. But I'm not even a home handy man. I just can't afford to pay anyone else to do the work I have to do it myself.
For the life of me I can't see why I need to make small boxes and join them all together and stick a top on them. Surly it is much eazyer to fasten 30mm x 70mm lenths of timber to the wall and floor and a few uprites along the frunt to stop the benchtop from sagging. As long as I can keep it simple, the top is what will make it look great. Am I missing anything?

[journeyman Mick]

Lawrence,
the whole "making a series of boxes and sitting them side by side" style of carcasse construction is tied in with the use of pre decorated panels for kitchen construction. When you precut all your components and they are all laminated and edgebanded there is no room for error when you go to hang your doors as you can't cut them oversize in the workshop and then plane them to suit on the job. It doesn't matter how skillful or carefull you are or how accurate your level is, if you make a kitchen the way you describe discrepancies will creep in. If you are able to compensate for these discrepancies by planing components to fit, then thats fine. In your case, if you're painting your doors (rather than making them out of decorated board) you may get away with it. Keep in mind however that depending on the sliding door system you're using you may have very little tolerance for any irregularities in the bottom shelf or any run out in the distance between the top & bottom of the carcasse. Whichever way you choose to go you will need to spend some time on levelling your kickers (plinth) perfectly. At one stage I was fitting kitchens for a big cabinet shop. about 1/4 to 1/3 of the time was spent on levelling the kickers, the rest on throwing the boxes in, screwing them together, clipping the doors on and adjusting them and then fitting the tops. Once the kickers were dead level everything else pretty much dropped into place. (except for maybe having to scribe the tops against bowed walls/out of square corners). Good luck, keep us posted.

Mick

[Lawrence SIX]

G'day Mic, thanks for the explination, from any manufacturing point of view I agree. If I aply the same little trick you would use for a wall, on the floor I think I would get a level floor plinth.
I am more interested in a low cost, practical kitchen, that will work for me and my S.O. I cooked on the Indian Pacific for sixteen years and the S.O. is a Swiss traind sheff and we know what we need in the way of cooking, bench space, sinks, cook-tops, etc,. In this great house we have in Mt. Victoria 2786. It has a great back yard, with a fantastic garden that some little old laidy was working on for over fifty years, but thats another story. The house had a small kitchen and an ajoining sunroom. Both lookout over the great back yard. The decision to take the wall out between them was not hard to make. (Just how much of the wall should come out before the costs went through the roof was something else.)
We spent most of our money on the house. Not much left and we don't have much of an income at the moment. Only money comming in is from the the Unisol Puzzle I do for the SMH. Untill I sell it to a few more publications we keep the belt tite.
Sorry for the rave but its better to give a bit of background. As an old SysOp I know how things can do a quick left turn on a BBS. (What BBS is that you ask.. Sydney Information Xchange.. started back in 1984)
So as you can see I need to do things from my point of view and makeing woodchip factories rich is not the way to go for me. I know my kitchen may not be anywhere near as well made as some of you guys could do, but I still think I can make a strong, good working kitchen that will be nice to work in and live in.
We would spend more time in the kitchen than even the bedrooms.
I am dockumenting and photgraphing every step of the way, over 1,000 photos to date. This may even turn into a book, expences to date just under a thousand dollars and we have a wall out, walls, floor and all the other stuff fixed up, removed everything except the kitchen sink (will remove when we have the benchtop and the new sinks.) And some work has been done on the to small bathroom, changed swinging door to sliding door. Need to put the pan on a concreat plinth (we are both over 6') but we can cope with it for the moment.
Now I have some reading to do on the cheepest way to do this kitchen with sliding underbench cupboard doors, I having been to Hettich Australia and been given lots of info. They are not cheep and if anyone knows anything or any place in Sydney or the Blue Mountains where I might be able to get things cheep that would be great. Time I have, money is something else.
Again thanks for the help I might not use all your ideas but I have started using some and I'm sure I will learn heaps. And I will have done it my self. Well with a lot of help from you guys.:D

[Lawrence SIX]

Not to mention all the toys I am gathering on the way, I now have a brad gun and one of the B&D level/studfinder sawbench and quite a few other things that will help lots, but no shed yet, one day soon, maybe even before the kitchen is completed.

Any Blue Mountian guys here?

[Lawrence SIX]

The moment I said I want to do this on the cheep you all went silent.

Ok I was looking at some older sliding doors that had nylon slides on the bottom of the doors. They look as though they would do the job, there must be some sort of mettle or plastic strip that this nylon slide would run on, there are two nylon glides per door and look like each is held in place with a nale. Any one know where I can buy these?
Also, how hard is it to rout two slots 5450mm long in a 30mm x 70mm batton?

[journeyman Mick]

Lawrence,
routing the slots won't be a problem, getting a bit of timber that is dead straight will be. Even if it is dead straight, getting the top rail straight plus parallel to the bottom will be a problem also. I'm not saying it's not possible to do what you wish, but I do think it may be a lot of very frustrating work to get it all built fairly straight with everything running properly. You may be happy with the results but I know that it would annoy the cr@p out of me. We've been in our house for almost 2 years and we have put up with a badly designed, dreadfully ugly kitchen while we get the money together to build a masterpiece. I could probably afford to build an average kitchen now but as this will double as a showroom for my work we're hanging out a bit longer in order to be able to afford the extras.

Mick

[IanW]

Lawrence, price is certainly not a problem with me - I already skited that my own kitchen cost me less than 1,000 bucks excluding appliances. What is concerning Mick, who seems to have done one or two kitchens before (!) is that the way you are proposing to do this might seem the simplest, but you might find it turns out to be the most difficult to get right. Trying to work off walls and floors as reference surfaces is tricky even for the experienced, and the worst of it is, they don't stay still! Sliding doors are the fussiest things to get right and keep sliding smoothly even with everything in your favour, in my (more limited) experience. It's relatively easy to build a bunch of separate boxes square and solid and get them in place plumb and level - I even confess to using those adjustable plastic feet now, because it makes the job so much easier - that took a huge change of heart from me. One of the pros above said that that was just about the biggest part of an installation job for him, and it certainly is for an occasional kitchen-mechanic like myself.
We're all coming from a bit of a mindset gained through our individual experiences, and perhaps we've misinterpreted what you are trying to do, but I for one am certainly not going to censure anyone for trying to economise, nor for wanting to do something different from boring boxes with melamine doors that self-destruct on cue in 15 years!
If everyone who was told something couldn't be done had taken notice, we'd still be cowering in caves - on the other hand, there are a few times when counsel is wise. I wish I could always tell the difference!
avagooday,

[Arron]

Lawrence. My wife is addicted to the Unisol puzzle. Keep up the good work.

Arron

[Lawrence SIX]

journeyman Mick

So would I be better off making short two door sections rather than one big run?

I am hoping that my B&D lazier level will help fix this problem. I may be over optimistic in this. I can see there could be all sorts of problems. But I also don't need this to be a tip top showroom. Just neet tidy and functional.

[journeyman Mick]

Lawrence,
I think you'll definitely be better off making short sections as it will be much easier to get things level and the gables (the dividing "walls" between each section) will provide support for the top. If you work out the extra materials required to make a series of boxes (it will only be the gables) you're probably only looking at one or two sheets of ply. Compare the cost of the two sheets against all the extra time and effort required to get the job to work without them and you'll realise that it's money well spent. Everything in the building industry nowadays is done as cheap as possible, so believe you me, if it was more economical to make kitchens with less boxes and gables but using rails instead they'd be doing it!

Mick

[Lawrence SIX]

IanW

Would making the track on the bottom from aluminum channel be a better way to go? No warped timber problem then. And perhaps packing the channel to sit level might not be so hard.

I am open to any ideas.

[Lawrence SIX]

Originally posted by journeyman Mick
Lawrence,
I think you'll definitely be better off making short sections as it will be much easier to get things level and the gables (the dividing "walls" between each section) will provide support for the top. If you work out the extra materials required to make a series of boxes (it will only be the gables) you're probably only looking at one or two sheets of ply. Compare the cost of the two sheets against all the extra time and effort required to get the job to work without them and you'll realise that it's money well spent. Everything in the building industry nowadays is done as cheap as possible, so believe you me, if it was more economical to make kitchens with less boxes and gables but using rails instead they'd be doing it!

Mick
Wow! how fast a reply is that...

I agree, but I have yet to see one kitchen in any of the showrooms that has sliding doors. I have seen about twenty showrooms so far. They all have hinges on the doors.

I take it you would use marine ply? And I can get sheets cut up to size?

[IanW]

Lawrence,
I have very little experience with building sliding doors, so I'm not competent to comment. Whatever you use for track/supports will depend on what the doors ae like - heavier doors would benefit from some sort of glide-assisting bits. If Mick hasn't any suggestions here, I'd go along to a wholesaler who specialises in this sort of hardware to see what's available - they have gadgetry of all kinds. I like the idea of sliding doors myself, for some applications, but nearly every one I've encountered has annoyed me by not sliding very well after a while. There must be good ways of doing it, so keep us informed of progress......
Cheers,

[Lawrence SIX]

Originally posted by IanW
Lawrence,
I have very little experience with building sliding doors, so I'm not competent to comment. Whatever you use for track/supports will depend on what the doors ae like - heavier doors would benefit from some sort of glide-assisting bits. If Mick hasn't any suggestions here, I'd go along to a wholesaler who specialises in this sort of hardware to see what's available - they have gadgetry of all kinds. I like the idea of sliding doors myself, for some applications, but nearly every one I've encountered has annoyed me by not sliding very well after a while. There must be good ways of doing it, so keep us informed of progress......
Cheers,

I have been to Hettich's new showroom and they have lots of stuff, a bit on the expencive side and didn't have the nylon sliding block type that I had in mind. (they are about an inch long 10mm wide and held on with only one nail)

I am going to use standard 600mm X 900mm X 12mm MDF sheets that I have given three coats of primer/undercoat and will be painting with the best highgloss in white. So the doors should not be to heavy.

I have not found a supplier for the nylon slides yet. Anyone know where I can ge them in Sydney?

[journeyman Mick]

Marine ply? only if I had a money tree in the backyard (if building for myself) or a "money is no object" client. Exterior grade ply is glued with the same grade adhesive and both are able to withstand 72 hrs in boiling water. There are sliders available that fit in a hole bored in the panel, similar to the hinges. I can't say I've been very impressed with any that I've fitted and I've had as good a result from a ply panel running in a routered rebate in a stick of pine. If you can't find anything that is suitable or cheap enough you might want to consider making a glide out of a piece of white plastic cutting board. You could fit it in a slot in the bottom of the door - just a thought.

Mick

[Lawrence SIX]

Originally posted by journeyman Mick
Marine ply? only if I had a money tree in the backyard (if building for myself) or a "money is no object" client. Exterior grade ply is glued with the same grade adhesive and both are able to withstand 72 hrs in boiling water. There are sliders available that fit in a hole bored in the panel, similar to the hinges. I can't say I've been very impressed with any that I've fitted and I've had as good a result from a ply panel running in a routered rebate in a stick of pine. If you can't find anything that is suitable or cheap enough you might want to consider making a glide out of a piece of white plastic cutting board. You could fit it in a slot in the bottom of the door - just a thought.

Mick

Oh! I thought you had to have something extra for kitchen sink areas. Great.

What a good idea. Thanks. At the price I can get them in a $$ shop I can afford to play with a few.

What is the best way to cut this stuff?

Any idea?

[journeyman Mick]

Lawrence,
I assume you mean how do you cut the plastic cutting board. It's very easy to cut, I usually use my SCMS to cut it into strips and blocks but on a table saw or triton WC would be fine too. If you're going to make sliders out of it you need to be fairly accurate with the cutting but you could always cut it slightly oversize by hand and plane it to its final dimensions.

Mick

[Greg Hudson]

G'Day Lawrence.
I recently bought a country house which has a large wardrobe with sliding doors made of MDF.

The doors are trimmed with metal (aluminium?) gold anodized bits that you can grab with your fingers (butt ugly they are) :-)

The bottoms of the doors though are fitted with thin wheels about 60mm in diameter almost flush to the interior edge of the door. The wheels are mounted on to one of the niftiest pieces of hardware I've seen... Difficult to describe, but the mechanism (mounted to the inside of the door) has a set screw on the back which lowers or raises the wheel - this in turn allows you to LEVEL the entire door by jacking up or lowering either the left or right hand side of the door (or even both if more height is needed).

I noticed that over Winter the door had expanded considerably (probably because the inside of the door has not been painted) - this in turn threw out the level, so it was just a simple matter of adjusting the set screws and she was running true again in a few seconds.

Conclusion...
Sliding doors MAY cause you problems you had not rekoned on.

Ensure your MDF doors are very well sealed / painted to prevent moisture penetration.

BTW, I am just about to start on the very same project as you !!! Also want to give it a go first before calling in 'the experts' :-)

BTW2 - The existing kitchen is built using the exact methods you are thinking of using (but no sliding doors!) ;-)

BTW3 - After leveling 300 meters of skirting board recently, a plinth should be a cinch !!! But the plastic feet sure look a lot easier (and cheap) - I also like the removable kickboards.

Regards, Greg.

[Lawrence SIX]

Originally posted by Greg Hudson
G'Day Lawrence.
I recently bought a country house which has a large wardrobe with sliding doors made of MDF.

The doors are trimmed with metal (aluminium?) gold anodized bits that you can grab with your fingers (butt ugly they are) :-)

The bottoms of the doors though are fitted with thin wheels about 60mm in diameter almost flush to the interior edge of the door. The wheels are mounted on to one of the niftiest pieces of hardware I've seen... Difficult to describe, but the mechanism (mounted to the inside of the door) has a set screw on the back which lowers or raises the wheel - this in turn allows you to LEVEL the entire door by jacking up or lowering either the left or right hand side of the door (or even both if more height is needed).

I noticed that over Winter the door had expanded considerably (probably because the inside of the door has not been painted) - this in turn threw out the level, so it was just a simple matter of adjusting the set screws and she was running true again in a few seconds.

Conclusion...
Sliding doors MAY cause you problems you had not rekoned on.

Ensure your MDF doors are very well sealed / painted to prevent moisture penetration.

BTW, I am just about to start on the very same project as you !!! Also want to give it a go first before calling in 'the experts' :-)

BTW2 - The existing kitchen is built using the exact methods you are thinking of using (but no sliding doors!) ;-)

BTW3 - After leveling 300 meters of skirting board recently, a plinth should be a cinch !!! But the plastic feet sure look a lot easier (and cheap) - I also like the removable kickboards.

Regards, Greg.
As I have said I am looking to do this on the cheep. Even very small wheels and tracks soon run to hundreds of dollers. None of the big kitchen people do sliding doors. I have picked up a few ideas here and will be giving it a go. I am taking lots of pics and will start to give you all an idea of what is happening soon. I can tell you it will not be costing me anything like the $40,000.00 I was quoted.

For the doors I am using standard 600mm x 900mm x 12mm MDF. (my benchtops will be higher than normal.) They are not very heavy and would not need wheels 60mm in diameter, not even 6mm. They have three coats of sealer on them at the moment.

Mr Ply & Wood looks like my first stop on the way up to Mt. Victoria where I will be checking out what they have that I can use.

I will be using the K.I.S.S. principle.

I am hoppping to get a nice big slab for the benchtop.

Looking for a dubble sink with mixer tap this weekend. :D

Will see what I can find in The Blue Mountains. There must be a few demolition places that will have something for me.:)