Lug Rig Heaven [Archive] - Woodwork Forums

keyhavenpotter

21st August 2008, 03:06 AM

We have just had our Lymington River Scow Nationals. 44 boats racing in gusty conditions in the Western Solent. For Michael and anyone else who loves lug rig here are many pictures

http://www.johnclaridgeboats.com/scownationals2008.htm

note there is a second album as well. For your interest I borrowed LR 365 (orange sail) for the day and joined in.

Reefing these lug rigs needs the main to be dropped, the halyard is attached about 15" further up the gaff and the reef tied in, then re-hoist the sail. Spars are, 3m gaff and boom and 3.5m mast. For Solo it would be great to reef without dropping the gaff - so my question is - for GIS and Beth are they reefed without moving the halyard attachment point?

Just imagine 20 Solo's off on a weekend Raid around the Solent. Will be great.

Brian.

Boatmik

21st August 2008, 10:56 AM

Howdy ... WOW ... Brian .. thanks for that!!!

With the 1880s (that is a year) halyard arrangement for the lug rigs on all my boats you don't need to change anything at the top end at all except ease the halyard - the halyard block does not need to be moved at all.

I have decided that a rectangular boom (rather than round) makes it easy to set up a couple of cheap pulleys and cleats so it is possible to reef without moving forward in the boat either. Or pulling hte boom back to the cockpit.

The first picture shows a very interesting downhaul system ... which I will be forced to meditate apon!

The website the pics are on above is from John Claridge. Another top level racing hotshot who has gone classic!!! He dominated the UK Moth scene in Skiff type hulls when us lot were using superlight scows. When there was more than 12 knots we would win the worlds, if less then the skiffs would win.

Claridge's skiff moth developments also fed into the development of the most recent (1980's breakthrough) generation of the 18ft skiffs developing hulls with a lot less drag instead of concentrating on the amount of power available.

His skiff Moths looked quite radical at the time - and WONDERFUL construction methods in very thin materials ... but little did he (or we) know that the hull beam was going to end up around a foot wide ... and then later sprout hydrofoils!!!

Top level builder/designer/sailor.

Best wishes
MIK

keyhavenpotter

21st August 2008, 05:59 PM

John realised that he could not make a living producing radical International Moths. He cut up his moulds and started again, as you say, with classics. His Scow is very popular around here and he now has a larger Pram as well.

I called in to see him recently and mentioned he looked like he had lost some weight. He looked round and pointed to a new very radical foiler International Moth that he is now sailing! So he still loves his International Moths.

It was John I had talked to about thin ply composite construction. With John being a World Champion and his wife a ladies champion in the same class, it is no surprise that their son Robbie is good too. Look out for the young man in the pink Scow in the pictures. That's Robbie. He won the Nationals taking all three races.

Pleased to hear of the neat reefing arrangments. Will help a lot for sailing Solo.

The Scow downhaul is a 6:1. Most fix at the front of the boom and use that and the 4:1 kicker to control sail shape and leach tension. Interestingly on my own boat which is a local variation, the Keyhaven Scow, I fitted her out with carbon glass spars with no screws or holes of any kind. I fitted the downhaul using a double strap to a single 16mm block. Although she has sailed well I always seemed to have too much leach tension especially in light winds. So I cut through the strap, fixed the downhaul to the front of the boom ( which I do not really agree with) and went sailing. What a difference, boom still sets well as a balanced lug, ie forward by about a foot in front of the boom, but now leach tell tales fly well, gaff not over tensioned and head setting well, and even the helm is really balanced and I can race just on helm balance .

Net result in the 4 races since I changed the downhaul I have won 3 by some margin and on Sunday wen it blew up to force 6 I was leading again but went the wrong side of the committe boat going through the line! Ended up second. I cannot believe just one small change can make such a difference, leach tell tales flying, head fuller with sail matching my home made carbon gaff, much better downwind sail shape controlled by the kicker and I have my lovely neutral helm back.

Brian

Joost

21st August 2008, 09:33 PM

Hello Brian,

It must be good racing so many classic boats together!

Any chance of posting a picture showing the exact set up of your downhaul and kicker?

Mik,

What is your view of this set up compared to the standard GIS one, and would it be worthwhile using it on the GIS?

I do see some advantages as it seems to enable one to fully control the shape of the sail as you will be able to better control both the boom and tension on the front leach.

It seems however to be a more complex system requiring more blocks and bits of rope etc. It also looks like that the angle from the front of the boom to the bottom of the mast protruding from the front deck is too big on the GIS, perhaps making such a system not very effective for tensioning the front leach.

Best regards, Joost

Boatmik

22nd August 2008, 12:12 AM

Hi Joost,

I agree completely with your analysis of the pros and cons. The great thing about these rigs it is is so easy to try things. If playing with downhauls, I would stick with Spectra (Dyneema) rope to minimise the stretch.

Best wishes
Michael

keyhavenpotter

22nd August 2008, 02:15 AM

HI Joost and MIK

what's really great is having the opportunity to still race singlehanded as my body deteriorates and responses slow. Every sailing spot should have a similar small lug rigged dinghy for the older generation to keep sailing in. Look at those pictures and you will see every age from 80+ down to youngsters crewing. We have just had the Lymington Youth Week and all these boats were out again - all the older owners lend them out to the youngsters. Great to see them all out in such great boats to learn in. These kids are all the next generation of Ben's and Sara's and Ian Percy's - what a week for the GB sailing team - sorry to rub it in!

Back to boats and downhauls.

The Scows are designed for the helm to be balanced with a jib. All youth and about 50% of the Lymington fleet sail two up with jibs. At Keyhaven we all mainly sail singlehanded without jibs. Now the jib will catch on the front of the boom so the Scows fix the downhaul at the front and use a small loop of rope attached to the underside of the boom which goes round the mast and back over the end of the boom. This fastens the boom to the mast and creates a standing lug.

Now the odd thing is that this became popular with the singlehanders - much to my disagreement. Without a jib and with the mast foot in the same place the only option to achieve a balanced helm is the tip the rig as far forward as possible. So on my Lymington Scow I had the mast as far forward as the mouldings allowed and use the downhaul about 15" back. I really believe in the BALANCED lug. My helm was neutral and she was very fast ( for a Scow).

On my new Keyhaven Scow I fitted her out to my own ideas. Because the carbon glass tubes I used were pretty flimsy I use the double strap for the downhaul. This proved very wrong. In effect I was pulling the boom downwards along all its length. Creating too much tension right round the sail, up the luff, along the head and back down the leach. So that the main lesson learnt.

I believe that on a balanced rig the downhaul should be back from the front of the boom so that the luff is parrallel to the mast. Now I have repositioned my downhaul to the front of the boom the surprise is that the boom is still setting ahead of the mast just as I want it to, yet I have managed to seperate the downhaul tensioning the luff and the kicker adjusting the leach. I think my mast must be tipped forwards enough to swing the boom forward even though the downhaul is pulling it back.

The kicker is good for adjusting leach tension off the wind and acting as a preventer to stop a chinese gybe. Once on the wind the mainsheet takes over.

Lug rigs become intoxicating when used for racing!

I will try to take some pictures tomorrow and post them.

MIK, yes I do use 2.5mm dyneema, throughout the boat in fact. Even the shrouds are 2.5mm dyneema. Stood up to three years use so far - may change the shrouds this winter. Bought a 100m reel off eBay from Germany - reduces the cost to about 1/3 of shop costs.

Brian

keyhavenpotter

24th August 2008, 07:35 AM

Joost

I have added 21 pictures to a Flica site showing details. Struggled a bit with the order of them and grouping them. Brian

http://www.flickr.com/photos/27848841@N05/sets/72157606911697259/

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3200/2790553290_1d0ebbd921.jpg
shot showing depth of sail

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3022/2789701387_d118472dda.jpg
Mainsheet detail.

Joost

24th August 2008, 04:45 PM

Brian,

Thanks for posting the pictures (and so many of them)! It is very good to see your boat's set up in such detail.

I will have to start and consider whether it will be worthwhile and feasible for the GIS as the interior lay out of the GIS is bit different from your lovely Keyhaven Scow. I do not really want to clutter the interior too much, but would love to have the ability to fully adjust and control the shape of the sail.

I will start thinking about it. Regardless of the down haul / kicker set up, the GIS will have, spectra / dyneema rope used trough out the boat (of course with exception of the main sheet). The main sheet system will use the same Harken Aero blocks (40 mm ones) that you have used (I know Mik, expensive, but I am of the opinion that my GIS deserves these beauties).

Best regards, Joost

b.o.a.t.

25th August 2008, 02:58 AM

Joost

I have added 21 pictures to a Flica site showing details. Struggled a bit with the order of them and grouping them. Brian

http://www.flickr.com/photos/27848841@N05/sets/72157606911697259/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/27848841@N05/)

Thanks for the pics Brian.
The stirrup idea for climbing back in is brilliant.
Will fit it to any boat I have doubts about re-entering in future.
cheers
AJ

Boatmik

26th August 2008, 09:11 AM

Hi Joost,

Any upgrades ... I am happy with!!! So don't worry that expensive bits are going to worry me!

Have you thought of homebuilding a carbon mast? Now that would add a nice lump of speed to her!

http://www.sailingsource.com/cherub/masts.htm

keyhavenpotter

26th August 2008, 04:57 PM

Hi Joost

can 100% recommend this supplier for dyneema. He is an eBay supplier from Germany. We bought reels of 4mm and 3mm. Came very quickly and postage costs really low. Costs much lower than shop retail.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/DYNEEMA-ROPE-3-MM-100-METERS-GREY_W0QQitemZ330248844734QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item330248844734&_trkparms=72%3A984%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

MIK

would love to have a go at carbon spars for SOLO- my Scow has shrouds and forestay, so freestanding masts would be new. I really like the lightness, buoyancy, toughness and their are sexy too.

John Claridge's origional gaffs and booms on his Scows were alloy windsurfing masts which were no good for windsurfing, so he bought 150 of them. Used 3m from top down for the gaff and 3m from the bottom up for the boom. I raced very successfully with these spars. So secondhand out of fashion carbon windsurfing masts could provide gaff, boom and mizzen mast. Just a main mast to make, perhaps a strengthened windsurfer mast as well? Making new spars exactly to spec would be good though if you would spec the layup? Brian.

Joost

26th August 2008, 05:30 PM

Hello Mik and Brian,

I already built the (hollow square) mast a couple of months ago, so I will stick with that one for the moment. The weight difference made me choose this one over the solid round one as my girlfriend should also be able to put the mast in its place without too much trouble.

You probably know how these things go: only later on you realize the things that could possibly have been changed a little compared to the original plans. Especially since this is the first boat that I am building and I haven’t had much sailing experience in wooden boats (just plastic boats like the Europe and Laser). I must say that it has been a good learning experience so far.

I am going to give Brian's set up regarding down haul and kicker a go, and maybe, if I feel a carbon mast is justified after have sailed her, try making one later.

I will definitely have a look at that e-bay site.

Kind regards, Joost

Boatmik

26th August 2008, 06:02 PM

Joost and Brian,

I am quite excited now with you and Brian with your racing background coming into the GIS and RAID41. Will be nice to have boats sailed up to their potential in the UK and Europe.

Brian, I probably would suggest going with the wooden yard and boom ... they do look nice! Getting weight out of the mast is nice too.

Can I tell you how grateful I am about the links about the scow rigging! It is a while since I have found any ideas that have more potential than the ones that are my standard tools ... you have got me excited about playing with the downhaul now.

One concern is that it might be fiddly to rig as it might require a small range of boom angle. This may not be a problem though, particularly that the GIS boom is in a more or less constant position whether reefed or not.

And we know the existing method works fine too.

MIK

keyhavenpotter

26th August 2008, 08:12 PM

Hi MIK

looking at the picture "mainsheet detail" in the mast area, the downhaul lines are left of the mast and the kicker lines are to the right. Note the mast has no partners at deck level. This means the downhaul lines slide along the flat face at the back of the foredeck coaming. So no restriction here on boom angles except of course for the shrouds.

Not fixing the mast at deck level however means so other interesting things happen. I find the carbon tubes are not very stiff untill they have taken on some bend. So on port tack in strong winds with a lot of 6:1 downhaul it is quite disconcerting to see the mast bending away from the boom which is pulled strongly from the port side of the mast. This lack of stiffness has to be a bad thing for a lug rig and had planned to stiffen the mast over this winter, however I have recently noticed an unexpected benefit.

With the boom on the port side of the mast, on port tack the sail does not set quite as well because of the sail shape hitting the mast. However in strong winds with the boom moving away from the mast - or rather the mast bending away from the boom, the sail shape is setting properly because the sail is not hitting the mast!

Since I changed the downhaul my little boat is going great. Just had our Bank Holiday regatta - 3 races on Saturday and one on Sunday - 4 wins! Very windy mind you - I am sure the ladies will be back to their winning ways when the wind drops.

I am glad you enjoyed the pictures MIK, it's a pleasure to share ideas on these great little lug rigs. For racing these controls help a lot, yet when I had a lovely Coot dinghy it had the simplest of lug rigs, just a simple downhaul and simple mainsheet, I was almost shocked at how well it sailed, I was even leading a pursuit race until I went the wrong way ( not unusual in my case).

Brian.

Joost

27th August 2008, 07:20 AM

Brian, Mik,

I have been wondering about the set up that would work for the GIS with regards to the down haul and kicker.

The lay out of the GIS is definitely very different from the Keyhaven Scow.
The GIS has its mast set in a mast partner, whereas the Keyhaven Scow is dependant on shrouds to keep her mast upright. This allows the control lines to be set at the mast step level (low in the boat) rather than at a mast partner level. Next to this, the Scow seems to have some very sturdy thwarts that are also quite accessible from the lower side, which allows the control lines to be directed to the back.

Since my GIS hull has already been put together and is in the process of being painted (in other words, this discussion was started late!), I am not really looking forward to making any mayor changes.

What would be the smartest way to go forward with this idea; how to make sure that the dual control line set up will work and be easily adjustable from the standard sailing position without having to go forward to the mast (that's where I really like Brian's set up, everything is in reach from the "driver's seat").

I am looking forward to hearing your views and opinions. Meanwhile I will continue thinking of a solution that would work.

Regards, Joost

keyhavenpotter

27th August 2008, 08:39 AM

Hi Joost

I feel sure MIK will answer this best, but our other local Scow variant the Lymington River Scow might give some ideas.

The Lymington River Scow has an arrangement which might suit the Goat. It too has a mast partner and no forward thwart. The partner has a hole in on both sides of the mast. The port one has the downhaul going down through it and the starboard one the main halyard. With the boom forward there is a tendancy for the tensioned downhaul line to cut into the hole, so some sort of ferrule might help.

The kicker can come down from the boom to a block looped onto a fitting at the mastfoot - lots of strength there.

The Lymington Scow then has the lines coming back along the floor to a turning block, up the sides of the centreboard case to cleats high up on the centrecase, just ahead of the main thwart. It means it is best to pull the tension on when central in the boat rather than any angle with my arrangement.

Some thing along these lines should work. No need to mod the boat in any way, just make sure that any block, or cleat is fastened to the boat in a manner that cannot pull the fixings out , this a key to avoiding problems later.

Good luck, happing planning - sounds like you will be sailing soon.

Brian

Joost

28th August 2008, 05:00 AM

Brian,

Thank you for your feed back! I quickly browsed through the Lymington Scow pictures again and picture 86 of photo set 1 shows the set up you are referring to in some detail.

The past few days I have cracked my mind over a feasible downhaul / kicker system for the GIS that wouldn’t require too many alterations to the present structure. Of course I wouldn’t mind gluing a few reinforcements in place if it would enable a fully adjustable system from the aft, but somehow I feel that bigger changes are necessary (bulkheads and centre case gusset are very likely in the way and reinforcements would surely be needed in more places than one to avoid the fixings from being pulled out).

But perhaps Michael, being the designer, has some ideas to arrange a decent set up easily?

Next to this, I have to take into consideration that I will also be sailing the GIS two-up. Therefore I don’t really want the control lines to clutter the front end of the skiff too much (unless they are positioned low in the boat where they are a bit out of the way).

What might be a solution, but I am not sure whether it is too much of a compromise as it would only enable one to adjust the lines from the front end of the boat, is the following set up:

1 U-bolt on each side of the mast.
Attached to the U-bolt on port side the downhaul using a 1:4 pulley system (I could of course make it 1:6 if needed)
The same pulley set up on the starboard side for the kicker
2 micro cam cleats with wide angle fairleads bolted to the front deck just forward of the bulkhead where a good reinforcement is in place
Both lines coming back from the blocks at the U-bolts to the cam cleats
This set up would also accommodate the normal GIS downhaul set up without any alterations.

I hope this makes sense (well I hope that you can make sense of my writing :roll:).

I am looking forward to your comments!

Kind regards, Joost

keyhavenpotter

28th August 2008, 07:16 AM

Hi Joost. Picture 86 is I think Joe, who I race with most weekend, and a very good sailor she is too.

I have added some more pictures to the flicr link. These show close ups of the Lymington River set up which I took today. Whilest I was at Keyhaven 3 scows arrived from Yarmouth across the Solent. Two Bembridge Scows and a West Wight version. Different again. No kicker, simple 2 part downhaul, much more like the older scows used to be fitted out.

I think with two sailing most of the time, and not racing in a fleet of 20 Goats, leaving the controls at the front makes a lot of sense. Keeping the boat uncluttered and clean looking is a big help to enjoying your sailing.

There is a lot tension in the lug rig downhaul so there will be considerable upward pull on a u-bolt by the mast, and thus a lot of upward pull on the foredeck. This sounds like an unplanned stress that MIK would have to ok.

With an attachment on the boom close to the mast the angle will be ok as the boom moves from full out port to full out starboard. The kicker will be attached further away from the mast, so the distance swung will be much greater and I think the kicker really needs to be attached somewhere fairly close to the mast foot. Without ever seeing a Goat in real life it's difficult to help. I am sure MIK will advise best. If there is a gusset supporting the daggerboard case, could you drill a hole in it that the kicker control line passes through and then just put a cleat on the back of the gusset.

I think you are on the right lines, forgive the pun, and there is defineatly no need for any changes to the boat its self.

I think you need to stop worrying and get out sailing as soon as possible! Then things will sort temselves out. Ken who makes the Keyhaven Scows is opposed to any Scow having a kicker, they never used to have them. He believes that the rig is much more forgiving in gusts without a kicker. Brian

Joost

28th August 2008, 08:17 AM

Hello Brian,

Thank you for the advice and the additional pictures on Flickr. MIK will probably be pleased as well seeing more pictures on lug rig set ups! These are helping me a lot figuring out possible solutions.

I am aware of the fact that it is difficult for you to make a good assessment without ever having seen a GIS in real life. I truly value your advice however. The following link shows you some upshot pictures of what the GIS interior looks like:

http://homepage.mac.com/peterhyndman/GIS/construction.html (http://homepage.mac.com/peterhyndman/GIS/construction.html)

I tend to agree with you that, since the boat won’t be raced and it will on occasion also be sailed with two, leaving the controls at the front might be best. And a change back to the standard GIS down haul (in case I won’t like the set up I am now considering) would be very easy.

Attaching the downhaul to a U-bolt by the mast is according to MIK’s plans for the Goat. The mast area is reinforced by a solid piece of wood (19 mm) glued in place underneath the plywood deck. I am not sure whether the kicker could be attached closer to the mast foot as the bulkhead might be in the kicker’s way.

I absolutely agree with you that I should stop worrying and get out sailing as soon as possible! I am however on a two week business trip to Finland at the moment, and that doesn’t help getting the boat finished! It also makes it difficult verifying solutions and stuff.

Best regards, Joost

Boatmik

28th August 2008, 10:37 AM

Howdy Chaps!

Good discussion!

Just for people dropping in on this post ... none of these methods are necessary or are even being recommended. The standard setup is simple and works very nicely. This section is all about tweaking performance.

I think the mast partner block that is under the deck will be able to take any sort of load. So you can bolt through that.

Don't use U-bolts - use saddles - the ones with the 5mm/3/16" fastenings will be plenty strong enough. If you need to mount two blocks on one side then use two saddles. Make sure the end of the saddle will go through any block (pulley) that you purchase - within one manufacturing range it usually does.

http://www.binksonline.com.au/store/images/rm121.jpg

If you use clam cleat use the metal ones as shown below.. the plastic ones wear out really quickly. These ones suit 3mm and 4mm lines which is all you will ever need if using spectra. - 4mm is probably preferable from a handling point of view and I would not go any larger.
http://www.binksonline.com.au/store/images/cl211mk2.jpg

It would be possible to run any control lines though a hole in the partner down to the mast step and use a block on the saddle to bring the line back along the floor of the boat to the mid seat. But you guys are right on the money about keeping it simple for cruising.

The saddle fastening could be glued straight into the mast step block. However the big problem with this setup is that the angle of the control line will have to change as it passes through the partner .. bad from friction and line and fitting wear views.

RAcing ... I would either bring it back along the floor or straight to the top of the centrecase ... the crew has to step over that anyhow - or slide along the mid seat.

Putting some real grunt in the system to control twist more might require the boom be made stiffer Make the blank the same tapered size but just radius the corners about 12mm. This actually makes it easier to fit reefing lines if desired.

Best wishes
Michael

Joost

28th August 2008, 05:23 PM

Hello MIK,

Thanks for the advice. I will definitely use saddles than. They seem easier to put in place anyhow.

The cam cleats (at least Harken is calling them that way) I intend to use are these:

http://www.shop.sailcenter.nl/img/shop/itemPics/med/h365.jpg (http://www.shop.sailcenter.nl/shop/nl/product/5493)

Harken also provides plastic base plates for the cam cleats that enables them to be set at a correct angle with regards to the control lines coming from the blocks at the saddle.

I have already made the boom according to specs, but will surely consider making a new beefed up one (just a days work anyhow) if required. One reinforcement I will make is a nice fat fillet where the partner meats the bulkheads.

Thanks & Regards, Joost

Boatmik

28th August 2008, 07:36 PM

Hi Joost,

Reinforcing for fastenings - vertical pull
No need to beef up anything. The only real mod is if one of the fittings taking a vertical load from the downhaul or the halyard should go through the partner block.

Reinforcing for fastenings - horizontal pull
Anything taking a side load like a cleat only will need to be bolted through the ply with a small 6mm backing plate of ply (just a bit bigger than the whole area behind the fitting plus a bit more than width of the washers if it is heavy loads - normal washers under the nuts of course!!!

BTW, With the saddles above ... I always put washers under the legs on the top face of the ply too. Otherwise they will puncture the varnish and dent the timber.

Most bolts will be 5mm or 3/16in and I generally use a washer with a 19mm 3/4in outside diameter.

Gluing fasteners
Where there is a decent thickness of timber I often use the same bolts without any nuts and just glue them in place with epoxy - drill the hole so the threads have a little bit of bite, but not so small the bolt will jam halfway down the hole.. But I would generally like to be going into about an inch of timber. This is a suitable method.for some of the mast fittings that go into solid timber.

Metal thread
http://www.fasteners-cn.com/4_screws/4_1_machine1_screw_b.jpg

When you can only use a screw use a self tapping screw not a traditional woodscrew. These can be glued in too but the heads are not as strong as the above.
http://www.allproducts.com/metal/goldenmetal/Product-2007830153559.jpg

The nice thing about these small bolts (usually called metal threads in OZ and probably Uk - the heads are usually phillips pattern these days - best for the omnipresent cordless drill!) it they are much stronger than screws. The heads tend to come off screws sometimes but never off a metal thread.

So method is drill the holes as per above. Drop the fasteners in some acetone to clean them up and drop them onto a clean piece of cloth. They can sit there while you use a smoker's pipe cleaner to put epoxy up the hole and on the threaded shank of the fastener. Then screw the

I generally try to use fittings with no moving parts as much as possible, but one risk is getting epoxy on some moving parts ... so if using Joost's Cam Cleats above push the fastening through the cleat before epoxying it!!!!

Removal of bonded fasteners
Of course ... if they are glued in place they will need to be removed by heating with a soldering iron to soften the epoxy ... but if Biting Midges Goat is now 14 and has no water staining at all and has not been revarnished or painted in that time ... then the method is time efficient.

I would be hesitant to use the gluing method on a modern race dinghy unless it was fibreglass (it is a good idea there). Haviing to heat and remove about 250 fastenings with a soldering iron from a conventional wooden raceboat would drive me nuts!!!!

Best wishes
Michael

Boatmik

28th August 2008, 07:41 PM

How so they make fasteners look so beautiful in these photos!!!!
MIK

Boatmik

28th August 2008, 07:43 PM

keyhavenpotter

28th August 2008, 08:17 PM

Hi fellow lug rig fans,

just a word about Quality Boat fittings. I, like many other sailors always lusted after Cool fittings but always felt I could not justify them. Well, when you end up working for one of the companies then it does give you the chance to try them.

I had just bought my older Lymington River Scow and was doing ok in the racing but not quite winning. The old fittings on this early boat meant I had to adjust the down haul and kicker on the beach, impossible to alter on the water. I fitted her out in all quality fittings and could not believe the difference. Now could adjust the sail at any time on the water and began winning races. So much pleasure to use.

It is nice using products are that are just so well made, using thin 2.5 / 3mm line and 16mm aero blocks means lots of pleasure for the least amount of pain.

Joost, the small cam cleats are available in carbo and metal teeth versions. As MIK says, always go for the metal teeth for long life, only a tiny bit heavier. I absolutely am 100% on board with the low cost / most fun approach, ( our Scows have gone too far towards high costs) its just if you do need a few blocks on the boat and you want to treat yourself and the boat please consider them.

Brian

Boatmik

29th August 2008, 12:42 AM

Good points Brian,

Personally I do tend to go for cheap fittings but the big think I have learned from current racing trends is to use thin ropes ... it cuts the friction hugely! So I tend to 4mm control lines and run them through cheap non-ball bearing blocks that are designed for around 8mm ropes.

However when thing get complex and a lot of mechanical advantage is required I start considering choosing ball bearing blocks for the most heavily loaded blocks in the system.

Friction is always proportional to load ... so a nice compromise can always be made by having ball bearing blocks in highly loaded positions, but as you get closer to the output end (ie the one being pulled by a human), the loads are quite small ...maybe less than 50lbs (25kg) being common.

This goes for rope choice too.

A line loaded with human type loads is not going to stretch much unless it is long, so long ropes and highly loaded ropes are worthwhile candidates for spectra/dyneema to reduce the stretch.

The most critical places on my boats are usually the halyards and downhauls for the lug rigs. Also the corner lashings for the sails are good candidates for some very thin spectra (though most spectra ropes only have the inside core in spectra so you can remove the polyester outer to create a thinner rope for tying the corners of the sails to the spars.

I mentioned it earlier, but there are these pages for the Goat here that are useful to any luggers and lateeners. And dare I mention spritters!!!

making lug and sprit rigs (http://www.storerboatplans.com/Faq/tradrigperformance.html)

Michael

keyhavenpotter

29th August 2008, 08:17 AM

Just for the record, I have no commercial interests in said supplier of high quality fittings having left there over 4 years ago. My post was just trying to express how using high quality products can enhance the sailing experience, a sort of "delivered benefit is higher than cost" Brian

Boatmik

29th August 2008, 10:35 AM

OK .... I will send you a message and we will work out a compromise so we are both happy. I should have sent you a message last night ... but it was getting late ... so sorry about that.

Michael

BobWes

29th August 2008, 12:15 PM

I just want to say, "Thank you!" to everyone for this great rigging information. It gives me a lot to think about and plan in to the build. I intend to race my GIS, so anything that will help is appreciated.

Bob

keyhavenpotter

30th August 2008, 02:15 AM

Hi Bob, racing GIS should be great fun. Full reports expected in due course!

One thing which I could do with some help is - have sailors out there found a range of really nice low cost dinghy blocks that they have found work, keep working and they are happy to recommend? Perhaps even something traditional like the tufnol blocks Classic Marine supply?

We are planning to build here in the UK soon, and want to build on a tight budget to show just what can be achieved. We will be using 3mm dyneema for all the halyard and control lines, just need to choose some nice low cost blocks. If none found I will have to resort to my beloved 16mm aero blocks but that will bust the budget.

Brian.

b.o.a.t.

30th August 2008, 10:10 AM

One thing which I could do with some help is - have sailors out there found a range of really nice low cost dinghy blocks that they have found work, keep working and they are happy to recommend? Perhaps even something traditional like the tufnol blocks Classic Marine supply?
Brian.

I use Ronstan RF571 at about AU$6 ea.
http://ronstan.com.au/marine/range.asp?RnID=014
Never broken one yet in a variety of applications, mostly off the water...
A bit high friction in 6mm nylon (for which the sheaves are designed), but should be much better in 3mm Dyneema.
Larger blocks cost more & I am a skin-flint !!
cheers
AJ

BobWes

30th August 2008, 11:49 AM

Brian,

Dinghies around here use either the Ronstan series referenced above or Harken Micro Blocks (shown here from the Defender site: http://www.defender.com/category.jsp?path=-1|118|103371|311514&id=311524 )

I'm looking forward to racing the GIS, but I'm not looking forward to the hassles of getting fair Portsmouth D-PN. I suspect my home club will figure out a number, but getting other clubs to recognize it may be an issue. We'll see.

Bob

Boatmik

30th August 2008, 11:53 AM

Those are my favourite choice too AJ,

They are made in OZ ... that is only part of the range. Big trick is to use 4mm lines and get everything aligned nicely.

Other manufacturs have similar blocks of course. The smaller ropes make them less likely to jam and wear the sheaves too. They are hugely strong ... much stronger than ball bearing equivalents.

Downside is that salt or sand can jam them more easily ... not often ... but a bit of a hose down after sailing is a good idea if possible (unless your GIS is permanently rinsed by sailing in fresh water - oh the joy).

Generally something PDR size will have a 6mm mainsheet so will go through the bigger of those blocks fine. But with the goat I recommend an 8mm mainsheet and use bigger blocks than these.

There is a possiblity of one ball bearing block in the downhaul system if you follow the rigging guide on my website ... but I think most here will be following the UK method for the downhaul at least for a trial.

The standard rigging does avoid a lot of the blocks so if cheapness is the big thing check the rigging guide I pointed to above.

MIK

Boatmik

30th August 2008, 03:09 PM

Brian,

Dinghies around here use either the Ronstan series referenced above or Harken Micro Blocks (shown here from the Defender site: http://www.defender.com/category.jsp?path=-1|118|103371|311514&id=311524 (http://www.defender.com/category.jsp?path=-1%7C118%7C103371%7C311514&id=311524) )

I'm looking forward to racing the GIS, but I'm not looking forward to the hassles of getting fair Portsmouth D-PN. I suspect my home club will figure out a number, but getting other clubs to recognize it may be an issue. We'll see.

Bob

Home clubs are pretty good... but if you start turning up to regional regattas and so on .. you may cause some confusion at the beginning ... but turn up enough and you will get one.

Also the D-PN people tend to focus on particular regattas ... find out which ones and sail in them if possible.

(for those who don't know the D-PN is an almost universal system for handicapping different types of small boats. Once you are included in their database you can turn up to any club and they know what to do with you)

I dearly want to get such a number for the OZ version PDRacer. There is a number in the US system, but it was for one of the early boats before my OZ version and not sailed particularly well either. I suspect the PDR will be a monster performer in light wind as it will spend the whole time jammed up against "hullspeed" in even light winds)

MIK

Joost

2nd September 2008, 08:04 AM

Hello Brian,

I am finally back in the Netherlands and spent the weekend sailing with friends, so now very eager to finish the boat and to go sailing!

I have been thinking about your following remark:

With an attachment on the boom close to the mast the angle will be ok as the boom moves from full out port to full out starboard. The kicker will be attached further away from the mast, so the distance swung will be much greater and I think the kicker really needs to be attached somewhere fairly close to the mast foot.

Not being used to lug rigs, it took some time for me to fully understand what you meant.
Anyhow, I have drawn the approximate positions of both the downhaul and kicker attachments on the boom relative to the mast on a 1:4 scale on a piece of paper for the full range of boom swing to figure out the best positions of the saddles for these control lines. This will hopefully ensure that the control lines are under about the same tension all the time independent of boom angle and thus that the boom will move out easily from full out port to full out starboard.

The most logical and convenient set up, at least that is the conclusion I have now come to, is to attach two saddles on the boom side of the mast, close to the mast and behind each other (this is also due to the width of the piece of timber that reinforces the mast partner and due the fact that I don’t really want the downhaul and kicker to cross each other).

But I will give it some more thought while applying the final coats of paint on the outside of the hull. Three coats of primer have been applied and sanded and the intention is to give the hull four coats of quality marine paint. Then the inside will be varnished (5 coats), so I will have ample time to make up my mind (in secrete still playing with the thought to lead the controls back to the middle seat) before fitting out the boat.

It is good to hear that other GIS builders are looking into this dual control lines option as well!

Best regards, Joost

Boatmik

2nd September 2008, 10:03 AM

Joost, I will have to have a closer look at the photos above. One of the problems is that if the two control lines go down to two different attachment points then there is a good chance that when the tension is increased the boom will want to "line up" with the two attachments points.

Would like to have some comments from "the potter" about whether this is a real problem.

Also the distance of the GIS boom to the attachment points for the control lines is much closer than in the English boats because of the raised deck.

Best wishes
Michael

keyhavenpotter

2nd September 2008, 05:25 PM

Joost and MIK

for some reason I cannot see the "above photo"? Even re-reading my own quote it's not that clear what I meant. Much easier with pictures.

Joost can you clarify for me how far forward of the mast is the downhaul, or is it in line with the mast, attached to the boom. How far back from the mast is the kicker attached to the boom. Then how far below boom height are the two attachment points to the mast - that's if I have got it right.

I think Joost when you first sail your Goat you do not want to spoil the sail with problems with untried rigging systems. My Scow solutions were created after 5 years of racing them, now 8 years in total. I think I would rig to MIK's design spec, and allow for the fitting of more lines later when you know the boat well.

Your point MIK about location of fastening points is a good one. I can get the control lines to the mastfoot with my Scow and I wanted to concentrate all the loads there - keep them in the mast so to speak. Even so with the downhaul having both attachment points on the port side of the mast foot, when there is a lot of tension on, it is pulling the boom away from the mast - seems to help the sail setting on port tack though.

Brian.

Joost

2nd September 2008, 07:35 PM

Hello Michael and Brian,

Joost, I will have to have a closer look at the photos above. One of the problems is that if the two control lines go down to two different attachment points then there is a good chance that when the tension is increased the boom will want to "line up" with the two attachments points.

The above is exactly the stuff I am trying to consider before fitting anything to the boat. Regardless of the boom angle, the distance from attachment point on the boom to attachment point near the mast area will need to remain the about the same distance to prevent the boom from being pulled to any side by the control lines. Having made a drawing showing the attachment points and different boom angles, it seems best to have two saddles close together on the mast partner on the same side of the mast. The square mast seems to have some influence as well here (edges further out than with a round mast)

I will probably follow Brian's suggestion and will first rig the GIS the normal way. It makes sense to me however to have some kind of plan in the back of my head for an easy change to a more complex set up including the kicker.

To answer Brian's questions: distance boom – mast partner will approximately be 40 cm about (16 inches). When the boom is in neutral position (that is straight to the back of the boat) the downhaul probably needs to be attached to the boom 20 cm (8 inches) in front of the mast, the kicker maybe some 30 - 40 cm (11 - 16 inches) back of the mast. I guess that Michael is referring to the pictures that you posted in this thread.

I will try to make a scan of drawing that I made later today (possibly tomorrow however).

Anyway, it is nice discussing this with you guys. Hopefully this thread will be of use to other people as well.

Kind regards, Joost

Boatmik

2nd September 2008, 08:20 PM

Exactly right Joost! Thanks for your contribution too!!!

MIK

keyhavenpotter

2nd September 2008, 08:54 PM

I think you are on the right lines Joost. Sort of start in a known position and then work forward as you sail her.

I have updated my Flicr rigging site, putting things in order and more pictures and more words. The last picture is of Miss Marta, the Lymington Scow I used to own. I think the picture shows a lug rig set to perfection and is a great credit to our local sailmaker Sanders Sails. I will try and post it here.

On the Lymington Scow the downhaul goes through a mast partner at deck level and the kicker goes straight to the mastfoot. So I guess it's ok for seperate positions for attachment.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3230/2821243592_a13a748979.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/27848841@N05/2821243592/in/set-72157606911697259/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/27848841@N05/2821243592/in/set-72157606911697259/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/27848841@N05/2821243592/in/set-72157606911697259/)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/27848841@N05/2821243592/in/set-72157606911697259/

Boatmik

2nd September 2008, 09:11 PM

If all the attachment points have a similar vertical axis parallel to the mast then it will all work tickety-boo

MIK

Glug

7th September 2008, 08:07 PM

Hi all,

I have just found this discussion and as builder/sailer of Tom Dunderdale's Apple 16 http://www.campionboats.co.uk/ (http://www.campionboats.co.uk/)
was immediately interested in the placement of the downhaul attachment to the front of the boom and using a kicker as well, because that is how Tom gets full control of the sail. Look at the drawings of the boats on his website. He sails in club races. On my boat I have the control lines attached to the mast so the mast actually turns as the sail goes out. The boom is rectangular and hollow so the outhaul goes from a sheave at the clew forward and out at the bottom of the boom to a block controlled by a line from the thwart along the DB case to a turning block at the base of the mast up to the block and in the same way back to the thwart on the other side. The downhaul goes back to the sitting position by a block on each side at the gunwale. The jiffy reefing blocks and cleats are on top of the boom. The main is loose footed. I made the hollow carbon spars by glueing thin wood moulds together and covering them with 3 layers of carbon sleeves bought in the US (Soller Composites). The spar has also layer of kevlar and fiberglass sleeving to give it a bit of flexibility. A bit of guersswork as it was first too flexible so I added two layers this year. The mast weighs 9kg and is 70mm diam, and absolutely stiff.

The mizzen is a spritboomed sail with a single batten at the top to give it a flat top, like a sailboard sail. I was given a Zoom 8 mast which is just the right flexibility to flatten the sail with the snotter. So I didn't build the balanced lug mizzen of the plans. At the moment it has a sleeve but I'll cut that off and replace it with a track for easy lowering and reefing.:2tsup:

Peter

keyhavenpotter

7th September 2008, 10:12 PM

Nice to hear from you Peter. You sound like a man after my own heart. Carbon Kevlar spars and all.

Can you tell us more about your thin wooden moulds and using the Soller tubular woven carbon. I planned to use those tubular woven carbon or carbon kevlar cloths if I had a go at completely building my own spars from scratch.

Tom is another big lug rig fan and as you say, races locally. Perhaps you could point him to this thread. I am sure he would make a very valuable contribution. His Apple 16 is similar in lots of ways to Goat, light, fast and traditional.

Brian.

Glug

10th September 2008, 07:27 AM

I was looking around the local building supply store and suddenly saw that corner mouldings of pine for putting up between the ceiling and wall of a house to give the corner a bit of class, have a concave inner surface and a 3-sided outer surface. Four of these stitched and glued together made an oval, almost round 8-sided hollow wooden tube. I filled the top with crumpled aluminium foil in case it would be some use as a radar reflector, and saturated the inside surface with epoxy. Sealed up the top and bottom hoping there would be some flotation, planed down the edges near the top to reduce the diameter above where the yard sits. Rounded it with a plane and sandpaper and then applied 3 layers of heavy carbon sleeving, wet on wet, using low viscosity resin from NM epoxy, a Swedish supplier. Cost a bit more for the low viscosity resin but I thought it would guarantee good penetration of the heavy weave.

http://bateau2.com/content/view/114/28/

shows how to do it.

Suppliers I found on a site:
People from model rocketry to kayak paddle makers to high performance engine exhausts to small aircraft builders are using this stuff. I found these:
http://www.sollercomposites.com/
http://sollerpaddles.com/composites/
http://www.aerosleeves.com/
http://www.acp-composites.com/
http://www.cstsales.com/index.htm
http://avtcomposites.com/index.php3

Aerosleeves is out of business now.

To reduce the amount of resin I covered the surface with peel ply, which soaks up the excess resin and prevents amine blush.

For the yard and sprit, I used smaller two wood L-shaped corner mouldings used to protect corners of walls, glued together. And medium weight sleeves of carbon, kevlar and glass. For the boom, two shaped and tapered 8x 90mm pine planks separated by the same material 8x10mm approx at the top and bottom to make a hollow box. Covered with 2 heavy carbon sleeves. The sheave for the outhaul fits in the hollow part and the outhaul itself runs in it. At first I used one but the boom bent a bit and as the saail is loose-footed I needed it stiffer so sanded the paint off the surface this spring and added another layer.

I can't give you guidance as to how much carbon you need for the mast. Jon Soller suggested 3 layers of heavy stuff and it is extremely stiff. I added an 4th extra layer from the bottom up about a metre as I had a bit left over, and that covers the extra stress at the partners. I wouldn't count on the wood core giving any stiffness as it is more flexible than the carbon sleeve, which breaks first and then the wood goes. The picture shows how I fasten the mast to the partners with bit of rope, the outhaul, kicker, downhaul, and the safety reserve downhaul that Tom recommends in case the main one to the front of the boom lets go.

All the spars seem to be tough enough to screw fittings onto with the self-tapping screws you would use on aluminium spars.

Peter

Boatmik

10th September 2008, 03:20 PM

Howdy Peter,

Don't think for a moment that I am competing here with what you are posting ... it is FANTASTIC information!!!!

Really grateful that you have posted it here!

However, just for those who might drop into the middle of this thread and think that the rigs seem complex.

The lug rig can be incredibly simple and have excellent performance. The details that Peter and Brian are providing are ways of getting quite a bit more performance still.

I haven't got a detail shot taken to show the ropes but basically, there is one to pull the sail up (halyard - it also holds the yard close to the mast), one to pull the sail down (downhaul) and one to stop the boom moving away from the mast (no name).

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3108/2844288383_c0feb945f6_o.jpg

So the rig is very simple in native state and quite effective.
Rigging the Standard Goat Island Skiff Lug (http://www.storerboatplans.com/GIS/GISRigging.html)

OK .... so that is the end of my simple point!!!
____________________________________________________

TWEAKING THE GOAT ISLAND SKIFF FOR RACING

General principles
However if you want to race and tweak the boat ... follow Brian and Peter's general drift -
1/ More power to prevent the boom from raising and twisting the sail (vang effect).
2/ More power for the downhaul
3/ Some attempt to separate the function of the downhaul and the vang effect
4/ Loose footed sail with adjustable outhaul to vary sail depth.

Do some serious study of the pics that Brian and Peter have put in this thread!!!

Be aware that a major difference is that there is a much smaller clearance between the underside of the GIS boom and the floor of the boat as in Brian's pictures.

While the Goat in standard form performs very well indeed this extra tweaking would bring it up to a higher level still ... at the cost of some complication and some expense.

Systems
For the racing rigs on the Goat I think I would be tempted to reduce the number of ropes above deck by using 5mm spectra for the vang and only a 2:1 system but lead it down to the floor and have a further 4:1 (in 4mm) running between the mast base and a cleat on the back of the centrecase.

The downhaul could be 2:1 between boom and deck 5mm spectra leading to the floor with 3:1 (4mm) running along the floor to the back of the centrecase.

I do dislike the expense of ball bearing blocks, but I love the way they work. I would probably use ball bearing blocks for the items attached to the boom, but by the time they reach the cockpit floor you could use plain blocks with plastic sheaves. Make sure that the plan sheave blocks are suitable for 6 to 8mm ropes and it will cut out a lot of friction too. Take pains to get everything running as straight as possible.

If you have access to a rope that is completely spectra then 4mm would be heaps (and 3mm would be strong enough but maybe too hard on the hands)

Both vang and downhaul should be attached using rope lashings around the boom and not use fastenings. Stop them from sliding around using a saddle or plastic fairlead on the top of the boom (fastenings are in wood that is loaded in compression so no weakness at all - tested by Farnborough Aircraft Researchers in WW2).

Spars
I would also increase the depth (don't alter the width) of the standard GIS Boom just by adding 15mm to it at each point to make it much stiffer - this is a guesstimate. Maybe something would have to be done to the yard as well ... I would be inclined to think in terms of 5mm extra depth (no change in yard width)

Not need for these changes on the standard rig!!! Only for racing with the changes that Peter and Bryan are talking about.

Best wishes
Michael

BobWes

10th September 2008, 03:35 PM

This is really great information! Even though I have a long ways to go - like building my GIS - before next year's racing season, this is really good information to have. I am printing these tips out to put in a binder for easier future reference.

Thank you Peter, Brian, and Michael for sharing your experience and knowledge. I'm sure I'll have questions for you all when I rig my boat early next spring.

Bob

BobWes

10th September 2008, 04:24 PM

Okay, maybe I won't wait until next spring...

Would the downhaul and vang lead to the same side of the centercase, or one to each side?

Any modification needed to the center seat bulkhead for better access to the lines lead to the back of the centercase?

Is the recommended/suggested added depth to the boom and yard for the entire length of each spar (not clear what "...added at each point..." means)?

Could the line used to "stop the boom moving away from the mast" be called a "gooseneck lashing?" Just a thought - I'm sure there is a more nautical proper name...

Thanks again.

Bob

Glug

18th September 2008, 07:16 AM

This has been a great discussion and thanks to everyone.
About Bob's question:C:"Could the line used to "stop the boom moving away from the mast" be called a "gooseneck lashing?" Just a thought - I'm sure there is a more nautical proper name..."
On my boat, the tension of the downhaul is enough to prevent the boom when on the lee side from moving out more than at most a couple of centimetres from the mast without any lashing or loops at all. I doubt if it matters at all if the boom moves away a bit from the mast when the tension might be low, as in light weather.

Concerning Mik's comments about expensive jewels and complicated rigs to tweak the rig for racing, I rigged the boat as Tom Dunderdale described in the plans. It was only now from Brian that I found that other English sailors use this system. If I had known then where I could get away with cheaper blocks than Ronstan ball bearing I would have used them. So far, I only "race" in Raid Finland, but like to be have the lines to be able to easily flatten the sail to avoid early reefing, prevent wild gybes, and have something interesting to do while sailing along. But I'm sure experience is more important than all the rigging to make the boat go faster.

Peter

Boatmik

2nd July 2010, 03:00 PM

Howdy ... just added a thread specifically about the Goat Island Skiff lug and setting up.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/f169/optimising-goat-island-skiff-120228/#post1174814

keyhavenpotter

3rd July 2010, 07:44 AM

It feels like this thread has gone full circle for me. Tomorrow, it's the Lymington River Scow Nationals again, the very event that started this thread. 41 lug rigged LR Scows are entered.

I have been leant LR365 again by it's very kind owner who has a busted shoulder and cannot race her effectively.

Hoping it will go well, taking it easy, try and stay out of trouble, might even start on starboard!

Wish me well, hope there's not too much falling!

How can I not at least try with over 40 lug rigs little boats out there racing together, in the western Solent.

Brian

m2c1Iw

3rd July 2010, 09:01 PM

Hoping it will go well, taking it easy, try and stay out of trouble, might even start on starboard!

Only 40 of them Brian you should be able to stun them with a leeward end start. Fortune favors the bold. :D

Good luck and have fun.

Boatmik

3rd July 2010, 11:54 PM

Headcam and post here!

MIK

keyhavenpotter

4th July 2010, 05:02 AM

Hi Guys, just back in after the racing. 14 knots building to a steady 19 knots. Very wet but happy. Somehow held it together and got 2 thirds and a first!!!!!!!! Won that last race by two seconds.

Great courses, very close racing. Spot on about the leeward end starts. The line was biased to the pin end, which leaves many, who simply start at the committee boat end all the time out the the way. Best start would been port tack, and leebow the tide, bit I promised I would start on starboard choose what. So started on starboard and flipped to port as soon as I could see it was clear.

It meant just the better racers were at the pin end so no issues of too many boats around to handle starboard shouts.

A magnificent day and so please I held together ok.

Only way to describe it - lug rig heaven!

There is one more race to tomorrow but very strong winds forecast that may be it, after completing three races.

Should be lots of pictures next week. My camera batteries went flat and dare not use new head cam in such strong winds yet. Too busy coping.

Brian

keyhavenpotter

4th July 2010, 09:02 AM

Some pictures from today and link to Picasa web album. See if you can spot me LR365 bright orange sail.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_ImKU0uMjsZA/TC-xXNOY9rI/AAAAAAAAAaU/_AJjNVUJVZw/Scow_3278.jpg

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_ImKU0uMjsZA/TC-xZ-Js9OI/AAAAAAAAAao/c2o1cXzE6pw/Scow_3391.jpg

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_ImKU0uMjsZA/TC-xocc3Z2I/AAAAAAAAAb4/sTSEPcOgw7g/s912/Scow_3575.jpg

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_ImKU0uMjsZA/TC-xo7hgieI/AAAAAAAAAb8/Gd6oPG-HnJY/s800/Scow_3579.jpg

Picasa Web Albums - 11576796960220832... - New Folder (http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/115767969602208324554/NewFolder?authkey=Gv1sRgCPPm0q_4tumRHQ#)

A great day's sailing.

Brian

Boatmik

4th July 2010, 10:33 AM

That wouldn't be you up the front!

Looks like great fun!

MIK

keyhavenpotter

13th July 2010, 03:11 AM

Here's the video you requested!

Mainly two handed coverage but some of the singlehanders as well. Look out for my orange sail (no jib) LR365. Does make the Scows look slow though. Seemed exciting at the time.

By the third race the wind is 20 knots. Scows don't plane till 30 knots!

Watch out for LR393 going downwind, and you will see why I am an advocate for a kicker/vang for downwind sailiing.

JOHN CLARIDGE BOATS (http://www.johnclaridgeboats.com/apps/videos/videos/show/9530192-scow-nationals-2010)

and 258 photo's here

http://www.johnclaridgeboats.com/apps/photos/album?albumid=9462154

Brian

Boatmik

14th July 2010, 12:55 PM

I notice that the orange sail boat is one of the few starting nicely on time and pointing in the right direction!

Ha ... just noticed that was a sloop and the gun hadn't gone. That current is something we don't experience here that often! Not for starting lines anyhow.

Is it a super long start line or just the camera?

MIK

keyhavenpotter

14th July 2010, 04:30 PM

Is it a super long start line or just the camera?

MIK

Bit of both. It was a nice long start line, and with it being for pin biased, it meant those starting at that end could be away and clear to tack onto the favoured port tack and lee bow the tide. That's one of the interesting features of Keyhaven. Taken from the camera person's position. Behind their back the tide is coming in strongly, about 3 knots from their left to right. However, looking in front of the camera person, ie the course start line the tide back eddy is flowing directly at them.

I thought I was starting reasonably near the pin, but look well away in the videos. The top guys are the ones at the pin. However they carried on too far on starboard before tacking onto port, which I did as soon as possible after the gun.

That long start line was interesting for the third race. They brought the windward mark much nearer to shorten the course because of the strengthening wind. That meant the distance was much nearer from mid point of the line than at either end, so even though I was again stuck head to wind for a while I was leading to the first mark, till I again go stuck head to wind tacking for the mark. Still second round the mark and then pipped the leader on the line.

Before the racing started I got stuck head to wind in her, and thought immediately that "wow" this boat is really balanced she should go well. And she did. I find it's part of the balanced nature of the balanced lug rig that makes her get stuck head to wind - especially as the wind and tide strengthen.

Brian