Not a good day

[lubbing5cherubs]

Gidday today has not ended really good. For some unknown reason my dog decided to snap at my son face, 5 stitches. It was unprovoked we were all around him so we seen the lot There was nothing done to dog but he just spun and bit him. He has over 5 puncture holes and a very miserable boy.
bye Toni

[DJ’s Timber]

:o not good Toni :no:

What type of dog?

[Batpig]

Poor little fella...:( He's still young - the scars may well grow out.

What breed of dog, just out of interest? Wasn't a Fox Terrier by any chance - they can get jealous around children...

Best Wishes,
Batpig.

[lubbing5cherubs]

NO our border collie. Never seen it in this breed before I am starting to wonder if it nuerological because we were all there he was definitely not hurt by andy.
Toni

[DJ’s Timber]

Actually Border Collies are known for biting children, I had one and you had to watch him when kids were around

[springwater]

Actually Border Collies are known for biting children, I had one and you had to watch him when kids were around

Very sorry to hear of this, must have been shocking, hate to say it but it's hard decision time, I've seen Border Collies be a bit "skitsy" you can usually tell in their eyes, sorry to have to say.

[prozac]

5 stitches! I would say he is one very lucky child. Count your blessings he doesn't need micro-surgery to rejoin nerves and to stitch inside the mouth.

Might look bad today, in a week or two not so bad, a month better still. In six months you may hardly notice it.

Not a nice experience, but a very fortunate one as far as dog bites go.

[ss_11000]

ouch.
:C:

[prozac]

Toni, how is young Andrew? Hope today he is less sore and feeling less fragile about the experience.

Your Border Collie wasn't being nasty, just deleniating the boundaries of pack seniority. He is subservient to you but considers himself higher up the pack than Andrew. Just doing what he considers natural. Perhaps some doggy training would help him establish where he sits in the pack (the family). Hope you still love him just as much.

[lubbing5cherubs]

HI Prozac, I have just had the vet here. He just went the vet too.

The vet has been there is medical reason for the attack he is now labeled as a dangerous dog. the Vet said even if he is hurt an attack to the face is always no go as far as he is concerned He also said with not warning a dog that attacks with no cause is a ticking time bomb and next time could be the throat and the cordiary artery of the child and we be dealing with a dead child. This scared me heaps.

The hard decision has been made. This is breaking my heart but once a working dog. You can bring a dog to the city but you can't take the country out of a dog.Once a working dog always a working dog so we are going to rehome him to a place with no kids and work for him to do. I am taking him back to my brothers this afternoon. He is in touch with properties he also know the dog so I know he will not shoot him on me. So we are finding him a home withno children so that Jock and can live a long life. As a mum my babies have to come first please do not htink less of me for this. but I am totally devastated and I feel like I am betraying Jock too.
:(
bye Toni

[prozac]

Hi Toni, I thought you were going to say "and we're putting Jock to sleep at 6 o'clock". I think that is a terrific decision for both you and Jock. Jock gets to go to a better place (really, the farm) and you know that he will have a good life on a property, there's no betrayal there. Best outcome both sides I reckon. And as you say with pikaninis around, they must come first.

Good decision.

[wheelinround]

Sorry to hear of the accident Toni glad the little fella is doing well and injuries aren't life threatening (just watch for infection)

As for the dog lets hope he lives out his days without any further trouble.

[Pheonix]

Had the same result with granddaughter when she was three,with my sons Border Collie she was putting some dry feed in his bowl,next minute he latched onto her,luckily no stitches,but LOTS of trauma especially from Mum.They are not trustworthy around children no matter how you treat them,I got it put down the next day.:(

[Glenn_M]

Hi Toni,
You acted quickly and both child and dog are safe. Sounds like the best possible outcome. Sorry you had to loose your dog, but better Jock than Andy. Best Wishes,

Glenn

[flynnsart]

Sorry to hear about this Toni. We have always had dogs and usually big ones too, have been lucky that none of the kids have ever had this happen to them. Although my mums cocker spaniel did bite my nephew on the face once.

Sounds like you came to a very fair decision for the dog, cant think of a better way to handle the matter acually, well done. I hope they young fellas isnt terrified of dogs now tho.

Donna

[Calm]

Toni i love dogs and as a former Farm Manager kelpies and collies have a special place in my heart BUT if a dog bites it would be put down before the sun sets. I wouldnt trust them even if the kid was pulling its ears.

After all it is a dog and as you said yourself kids come first.

I think the dog is especially lucky to have someone like you to try and give them a longer life.

Cheers

[lubbing5cherubs]

We took him back yesterday for a reaccess there is no infection. The stitches look ok to come out for thursday the only concern we have his corner of his mouth is not yet responding when he smiles. There is a part of the face that helps the lip make a whistle and smile that appears not to be working but the dr said until the swelling subsides and the stitches come out we can not find out if this is damaged yet. We will have to work out what to do next then.

That is the medical side now the emotional. Yesterday he saw a dog teeth and he freaked and shaked and took a lot of consoling. But with puppy chewing him like puppies do he is ok with that
bye
Toni

[prozac]

Hope it all comes good Toni as the swelling subsides. Nerves can stop functioning whilst they are compressed. All the best.

[Christopha]

Hi Toni, I'm glad the sproglet is ok, nasty stuff and I hope it doesn't put him off all dogs. Jock is very very lucky!
I'm afraid he would have been pushing up daisies as soon as the boy was bandaged if it had happened with my dog or anyone elses dog!

I had a Border Collie Kelpie cross and she was utterly trustworthy with anyones' children, woe betide any adult who looked like hurting any child, that was the only time teeth would be bared and even then she would always apologise immediately. She was a beautiful friend and I am sure many other people would say the same of their Borders.

[Geoff Dean]

The hard decision has been made. This is breaking my heart but once a working dog. You can bring a dog to the city but you can't take the country out of a dog.Once a working dog always a working dog so we are going to rehome him to a place with no kids and work for him to do. I am taking him back to my brothers this afternoon. He is in touch with properties he also know the dog so I know he will not shoot him on me. So we are finding him a home withno children so that Jock and can live a long life. As a mum my babies have to come first please do not htink less of me for this. but I am totally devastated and I feel like I am betraying Jock too.
:(
bye Toni

I'm sorry but I think this is totally the wrong thing to do. All you are doing is moving the problem somewhere else, for someone else to fix. How will you feel if the dog attacks someone else's child and injures them.

Before anyone flames me, I have been through the same situation myself, luckily the dog didn't attack a child, it was our other dog, and she was injured quite badly.

Unfortunately there is only one solution to the problem, and as unpleasant as it is, it is the only responsible thing to do.

Hope your little fella is okay and doesn't have any ongoing dog issues.

[springwater]

Hoping the little man well.

[Greg Q]

That happened to me when I was very little...I have no recollection of course, and only the smallest of scars remaining to show for it. Different time and place. Dad came home and used his war souvenir Luger to "deal with it".

I'm not saying either way, except to say that I have never felt guilty when that old family story used to be told. "Damned right" I'd say, and mean it.

[pugwash]

Toni, I reckon you've done the right thing by your child and your dog. Mixing children and dogs can be tricky. Kids are not always as high up in the dog's pack order as they think. Hope everything turns out OK.

[prozac]

Toni, you've done the right things. Hopefully the young bloke will get over it without problems and the dog, well he's out on a working property with no kids. I don't think you have moved the problem on.

[Yeldarb]

I hope the little guy pulls through and all scars heal.

Heartbreaking stuff...no one can say what is right for you. We have a 6 month old Foxy/Jack Russell...he had a snap at our 2yr old girl, hopefully the flogging he got will stop it happening again...not sure what I'd do in the same situation.

[Ad de Crom]

Toni, just read it now what happened, not so nice. You took the right decision to bring the dog to your brother, for his new job as a working dog, so no kids anymore around this dog. This kind of attacks happen more than you would think, for different reasons.
Hope your son is okay now.

Ad

[Calm]

I hope the little guy pulls through and all scars heal.

Heartbreaking stuff...no one can say what is right for you. We have a 6 month old Foxy/Jack Russell...he had a snap at our 2yr old girl, hopefully the flogging he got will stop it happening again...not sure what I'd do in the same situation.

Lets hope you dont say "if only i had........." or "I should have done ......................". You have had a warning so there is only one person to blame if anything happens later.

It is a big decision but it has to be made.

[Ron Dunn]

I wonder if there is a difference here between those who grew up in city and country?

I grew up in rural Victoria. If a dog did this it would be dead as fast as someone could find a gun, no matter how treasured the relationship.

I share Calm's nervousness about shifting the problem to another location. Who is to say that a biting dog won't take it out on stock next time? Or a neighbour's kid?

Once a dog does damage like this I do feel it should be put down.

[echnidna]

I feel the same. if a dog attacks, dog dies.

[silentC]

My dog is sitting right here beside me but so help me, if he did that to ANY kid, provoked or not, I would wring his neck with my own hands.

In fact I would go as far as to say that allowing a dog to live after it has taken a bite out of a kid's cheek like that is irresponsible.

[Groggy]

I agree with the last three, the dog has to be put down.

A couple of things to consider - if the dog did it again to another child, not yours, you would have to face the parents. When the parents find out the dog has already bitten a child before theirs you will have to face the parents again, then the police, then their solicitors, then the Crown.

It would be a pretty indefensible position.

[Yeldarb]

Lets hope you dont say "if only i had........." or "I should have done ......................". You have had a warning so there is only one person to blame if anything happens later.

It is a big decision but it has to be made.

He was about 4 months old when he snapped...if all 4month old pups that snapped were put to death there wouldn't be any dogs living with people at all. The species would have been wiped out long ago. Either that or they would all be like they've had a labotomy.

The main problem is that we trust our dogs, and we have very good reasons too...most of the time they do the right thing. Some times they don't. I grew up with dogs, all kinds (my brother was into pig hunting big time) and never ever saw one sign from any of them that they couldn't be trusted...they were treated as dogs should be, and not let to be confused into thinking they are one of the humans in the house. Dogs shouldn't be allowed to sleep in the house (if you have kids).

If you trust your dog with kids you are looking for trouble...putting the dog to death after the act doesn't fix the problem, the problem was you initially trusting the dog and probably something to do with the dog thinking it was a human (or that we are all dogs and he is equal...or rather higher in the pack.

[silentC]

putting the dog to death after the act doesn't fix the problem
It stops it from doing it again. It would be nice if you could get some kind of promise from a dog to be good in future, but unfortunately you can't. Given the same circumstances, the dog will more than likely act the same way.

I think there is a big difference between a dog snapping, which many dogs do, and a dog tearing a child's cheek though. I don't think it's necessary to put down a dog that snaps.

[Yeldarb]

I'm not against putting the dog to death...in fact if my dog did what this one did, it would be put to death. The trouble is, with my knowledge of dogs, I would blame myself and not the dog.

Also one reason we got a little dog...if the worst happens a little dog will inflict far less damage than a big dog. Usually.

People should be made to attend some kind of training when they get a dog...there is so much that people take for granted with dogs. Number one is that people need to be taught how to show their dog it's place "in the pack".

[Ashore]

Yep I'de be increasing the dog's weight by 1/2 oz , only a little higher and your son looses an eye , in my view a dog is a dog, it's a pet it is not a child or a member of the family it's a pet and bottom of the pile, once they get into thinking their part of the family with rights you have a problem :no:

[Howdya do that]

Do not move the dog:(( your only shifting the problem:((
A close friend of mine has a daughter that is disfigured quite badly from an attack by the neighbours dog.

This dog had been given to their next door neighbour because it had bitten a child and they had no children :doh:

[jaspr]

If he also snapped at the Vet, I'd say there is a high chance he will snap again (child or adult). If he is on a property, I would expect him not to get another chance after that. (He wouldn't have got the first one from me.)

I hope your son recovers in time.

[womble]

it attacks people, put it down.

[Geoff Dean]

Is the dog dead yet? It should be.

[prozac]

Sniff, I smell something. I 'm sure I can. Sniff, sniff,sniff. I can smell something! That certainly is the smell of rampant horrible rednecks working themselves up into a frenzy to lynch what, A DOG?

Get over yourselves! You are rude and inconsiderate of Toni's situation. Toni has allowed the forum members to enter her home, share her pain and her choices for what she believes is the best for her family which, until a few days ago included a dog. At the end of the day the decision is hers and not ours. Without a complete understanding of her situation you are in effect berating her for the decision to move the dog to a working farm with no children. No doubt it was a hard one for her.

Toni has shared her decision with us and we should be supportive of her, not standing around trying to see who can p*ss the highest up the wall with no regard for her feelings.

Those of you, who know who you are owe Toni an apology.

[Geoff Dean]

Sniff, I smell something. I 'm sure I can. Sniff, sniff,sniff. I can smell something! That certainly is the smell of rampant horrible rednecks working themselves up into a frenzy to lynch what, A DOG?

Not just a dog, a vicious dog that has shown it will attack for no reason at all.


At the end of the day the decision is hers and not ours.

If the dog had attacked anyone but her child, the decision would not have been hers, it would have been removed by the authorities and put down already.

Would also probably be facing criminal charges and most assuredly be facing civil charges.


Toni has shared her decision with us and we should be supportive of her, not standing around trying to see who can p*ss the highest up the wall with no regard for her feelings.

If you post something like this, you have to expect an opposing view, not everyone is going to stand around and pat you on the back and say what a great thing you have done. At best, moving the dog is extremely irresponsible, at worst, it's best left unsaid. And what about the feelings of victims of dog attacks that have happened because some other irresponsible person has relocated a vicious dog.:((


Those of you, who know who you are owe Toni an apology.

Don't think so.

[Honorary Bloke]

Sniff, I smell something. I 'm sure I can. Sniff, sniff,sniff. I can smell something! That certainly is the smell of rampant horrible rednecks working themselves up into a frenzy to lynch what, A DOG?

Rampant 'orrible rednecks, eh? I should have said responsible citizens.

Toni has allowed the forum members to enter her home, share her pain and her choices for what she believes is the best for her family.

Yes, I can see where sharing this misfortune with several thousand close friends should be respected as a family intimacy. :rolleyes:


At the end of the day the decision is hers and not ours. .

As Geoff said, that would not be true if it had bitten someone else. And it da*n sure wouldn't be allowed over here. Full stop.

[silentC]

Sniff, I smell something. I'm sure I can. Sniff, sniff,sniff. I can smell something! That certainly is the smell of insipid latte-drinking bleeding hearts self-flagellating themselves into hysteria to save what, A DOG?

:D

[journeyman Mick]

Can you guarantee that the dog will never come into contact with kids at its new home? Sometimes things need to be done that are unpleasant, doesn't mean that they should be avoided.

Mick

[prozac]

I think you have all missed the point.

[Geoff Dean]

I think you have all missed the point.

What point? A dog has, without provocation, viciously attacked a child and you stand there and defend the right of the dog not to be put down.

I think if any point has been missed, it's by you.:(

[Howdya do that]

I think you have all missed the point.

Google "dog bite" Prozac then YOU might get the point.

[Calm]

What point? A dog has, without provocation, viciously attacked a child and you stand there and defend the right of the dog not to be put down.

I think if any point has been missed, it's by you.:(

Geoff and others i think the point here is that this is a very sensitive issue to Toni and we have given her our opinion.

One post each has conveyed how you feel about the issue. To continue to "argue/debate/procrastinate" about the subject, to me, only shows a lack of respect for the person that originated this thread.

Surely that is not your intention but i dont think Toni deserves or has asked for us to beat her around the head with the subject/our opinion.

That is the point.

Yes i will go into bat for anyone i think is getting a raw deal. - (no smilies need)

Cheers

[silentC]

I'd suggest that if what a person is after is sensitivity and respect, then a public forum is not the place to get it. :)

It is only natural that if you post a topic like this, you are going to attract a certain amount of debate. It's what we do. It is the forum's raison d'être. Some people will respond sympathetically, some will respond critically. It's not for you to say who is right or wrong. We are expressing an opinion.

If people don't want these matters discussed, then it is up to them whether they post them in the first place. It is probably a good idea to remember that this is not a private room and posts can be read by anyone anywhere anytime. You can't post here and then get upset that people want to discuss what you have posted.

[Calm]

thats true but good manners and respect should be shown on all occasions, even in a public forum.

Would you say these things to their face (say around a barbeque) or are you using the protection of absenteeism to give your opinion.

[silentC]

Would you say these things to their face ...
In this case, most definitely.

I'm not suggesting we should drop all decorum. I'm just saying that if a person doesn't want their private matters discussed in public, then a public forum is not the best place to announce them but that having done so, they should accept the criticism along with the sympathy.

[Calm]

Geoff and others i think the point here is that this is a very sensitive issue to Toni and we have given her our opinion.

One post each has conveyed how you feel about the issue. To continue to "argue/debate/procrastinate" about the subject, to me, only shows a lack of respect for the person that originated this thread.

Surely that is not your intention but i dont think Toni deserves or has asked for us to beat her around the head with the subject/our opinion.

That is the point.

Yes i will go into bat for anyone i think is getting a raw deal. - (no smilies need)

Cheers


In this case, most definitely.

I'm not suggesting we should drop all decorum. I'm just saying that if a person doesn't want their private matters discussed in public, then a public forum is not the best place to announce them but that having done so, they should accept the criticism along with the sympathy.

I have not suggested that we not discuss this matter or give your opinion, what i am saying is good manners and respect would be to make one post - have your say - and
leave it at that, not continue on about it. This is especially relevant to sensitive issues like this.

Have your say but dont keep "bashing the person over the head" with your opinion.

The good thing about opinions is everyones is right - but maybe only to them.

That is the point.

Cheers

[prozac]

In this case, most definitely.

I'm not suggesting we should drop all decorum. I'm just saying that if a person doesn't want their private matters discussed in public, then a public forum is not the best place to announce them but that having done so, they should accept the criticism along with the sympathy.

Calm has stated the case eloquently as usual. Toni's post was "Not a good day" to get off her chest (sorry Toni) that she is upset, her little boy is in some discomfort. Some members here have taken this as an offer to attack Toni. They may not feel that voicing an opinion no matter how bad mannered in discussion is one thing, continuing to force that message home is rude and boorish behavior. Toni is upset enough about this already.

This is the Health Issues forum and not the Open Slather forum, and common manners prevail. You may not have noticed that Toni is no longer contributing to this thread? No doubt she is feeling a bit remorseful that she ever started it. Show her some respect as you would anyone else in this forum.

[silentC]

It's a debate! A debate consists of two sides putting forth their views. All I can do is keep repeating that if a person doesn't want their private matters debated on a public forum, they shouldn't post them. Doing so gives us license to have at them. We have rules about how these debates are conducted, and so far, with the exception of Prozac (and my tongue-in-cheek response) they have not been broken. We are discussing the general idea of whether a dangerous dog should be relocated or destroyed. This is a topic that has been aired in public many times. It does not belong to the OP. Subjects like this take on a life of their own. You only have to open the newspapers to see this in action. It is how we as a society reach consensus on all manner of things. If the OP doesn't like the discussion taking place, then she is at liberty to ask the mods to close he thread.

[Calm]

It's a debate! A debate consists of two sides putting forth their views. All I can do is keep repeating that if a person doesn't want their private matters debated on a public forum, they shouldn't post them. Doing so gives us license to have at them. We have rules about how these debates are conducted, and so far, with the exception of Prozac (and my tongue-in-cheek response) they have not been broken. We are discussing the general idea of whether a dangerous dog should be relocated or destroyed. This is a topic that has been aired in public many times. It does not belong to the OP. Subjects like this take on a life of their own. You only have to open the newspapers to see this in action. It is how we as a society reach consensus on all manner of things. If the OP doesn't like the discussion taking place, then she is at liberty to ask the mods to close he thread.

Like i said before - your opinion is right - but maybe only to you.

Thats my opinion, not a debate.

cheers

[Vernonv]

Hi Toni,
I really hope your boy is feeling better and heals quickly. It's a horrible situation and I feel for you and your family, but I must agree with others that have expressed the opinion that the dog should be put down.

I love dogs and have been in the situation where a border collie cross pup (about 9 months old) ran down and mauled a fully grown wether. It didn't kill the wether but it left it in a ghastly state (and it had to be put down). Needless to say the dog was put down very soon afterwards.

So not only do you have to consider the safety of people (kids in particular) that will come into contact with the dog, you need to also be mindful about the damage it may inflict on other animals it comes into contact with.

[RufflyRustic]

.......... We are discussing the general idea of whether a dangerous dog should be relocated or destroyed. This is a topic that has been aired in public many times. It does not belong to the OP. Subjects like this take on a life of their own. ...............If the OP doesn't like the discussion taking place, then she is at liberty to ask the mods to close he thread.


As the topic has moved away from the original post, take the debate to it's own thread.

This thread is closed.

Wendy
Head Moderator

[RufflyRustic]

Posted on Behalf of lubbing5cherubs:



Jock has been rehomed to a property. This was not an easy decision for me. At the end of the day the decision is between me and my family and George who has got the dog.

The biggest factor in me rehoming the dog and not getting him put to sleep immediatley was the simple fact that my son who got bitten adamantly did not want the dog killed. So I respected his wishes as he was the one hurt. I trust my little boy and I ain't going hurt his heart anymore than what he's been through.
I really understand both sides of the coin here but this was the decision that I made that I can live with. We all involved are happy about it. Andrew can cope with this decision and at the day his feelings are important to me.

Finally, I am ok, I understand and respect that we are all entitled to our opinions and I ask that you too respect mine in this decision. I really do not mind either way that this is the decision that has taken place and I know that if Jock dares even raise a lip at someone he will be in puppy heaven fast than you can open your mouth.

This is the very end of the discussion. Thank for your support and for respecting my decision.
bye Toni