CNC Gantry Router #A [Archive] - Page 3

twistedfuse

25th March 2009, 10:37 AM

Hey Steve,

I might be interested in the 40v one, just got to organise my gantry sides and reduction so i know how much i have leftover.

***removed lines so i don't confuse newbies***

Daniel

EDITED: Please note i have stuffed up here. It should be 1.4, i had a brain fart moment. I'm thinking i had both 1.4 and 0.7 in my head and just muddled numbers....sounds good anyway. (Therefore 50v = 70vdc, 40v = 56vdc)

rodm

25th March 2009, 10:43 AM

Hi Daniel,
Isn't the multiplier 1.4 after rectifying?

twistedfuse

25th March 2009, 10:54 AM

Hey rod,

sorry just saw this here. Yes you are right. I guess i had one of them moments.lol.

Zoot

25th March 2009, 09:40 PM

I wish I knew what language you blokes were talking ... I got out my old school French Dictionery, but it was of little help until I remembered Rod talking about electrickery ... I must see if I can get a dictionary for that!!

Cheers,

Alan

snowyskiesau

25th March 2009, 09:57 PM

Steve,

I'd be interested in a 35v transformer. I'll be running Geckos so need a 50V max supply.

rodm

25th March 2009, 09:57 PM

A lot of French gets uttered when I play with electrickery. :rolleyes:

I have been installing limits and other bits of wiring all week and those tiny connections, my big fingers and those small wires have near worn out my patience. It is like trying to thread a needle working in half light under the patio. This is supposed to be fun??

stevejw

26th March 2009, 01:01 AM

Hi Geoff,
unfortunately they drop from 40-40V to 25-25V so no 35-35V off the shelf.

Sorry
Steve

stevejw

26th March 2009, 05:06 PM

Hi All,
Further to my info on toroidal transformers I have found a source of Mean Well switch mode power supplies in 48VDC @ 320W 6.6Amp for $99.00AU SP-320-48 or 48VDC @ 350W 7.2Amp for $61.90 S-350-48

Both units are fan cooled, I think the SP320 has full CE UL approvals and the S350 does not hence the price differential. I have used Mean Well power supplies in industrial units we have built before with good success. So why build your own when you can have a professional P/S with thermal overload and short circuit protection built in for less.

Plus using one these units means a regulated output and so does not matter if your home or workshop supply is +- 5 or even 10% you still only get 48VDC out. Build your own unregulated supply and you may find the output fluctuates with the supply fluctuations that occur from time to time.

Just my humble opinion.

URL http://www.computronics.com.au/meanwell/

Cheers:D
Steve

rodm

27th March 2009, 01:56 AM

Well I am about to chuck the smoothstepper as far as it is able to fly. Three nights of struggling with electrical noise has just about made up my mind to revert to a parallel port connection. First it was the Emergency switch and when I got that sorted out I now have a problem with disconnection of the smoothstepper from the computer when I switch on any of my auxilary 240 volt switches.
It seems the smoothstepper is very prone to noise.
I acknowledge that I am probalby the worst person to fit up one of these but when I bypass the smoothstepper and connect direct to the CNC4PC card through a parallel port I do not get any of these issues - go figure.

stevejw

27th March 2009, 11:58 AM

Rod,
How far are trying to run the USB?

USB has a fairly short cable length spec of 2 metres due to the high data rate.
Keep the cable seperated from any AC cables as they cause induced EMF's (electro motive forces, voltages, spikes etc)

Hope this helps

Cheers
Steve

Greolt

27th March 2009, 12:45 PM

G'day Rod

Welcome to the SS world. :U

SS has digital filtering which should take care of the estop issue. Although I would prefer to deal with it with a bypass capacitor.

The disconnect issue when running something else will be a grounding problem.

I had a problem when starting the VFD the SS would loose connection with the computer.

The only way to stop it was use a laptop on it's internal battery, without the power supply. Plug in the laptop power supply and it would fail again.

Tried different ways to power the SS. Via USB. Separate 5v supply. Even AA batteries. Did not help.

Some users have reported, and I have seen it too, where turning the fluorescent ceiling lights on will do it.

This was solved by placing a ground strap from VFD earth lug to computer chassis.

Yours will be a grounding issue somewhere. Try what I did.

Grounding, or not, the SS board itself made no difference for me.

Greg

rodm

27th March 2009, 03:30 PM

Thanks Steve and Greg,
I am sure it is a grounding issue but didn't think of the computer grounding. I am using a mobile console that I use on other machines so it is not practical to ground between it and Morphy.
The parallel port works fine with the C10 CNC4PC board so I will run with that and cut my losses on the SS.
The downside is I will have to go to 5 volt signals for limit switches. Shame as Greg had made me a 12 volt opto isolated board for limits and it was the only thing that didn't fail to work.

crocky

27th March 2009, 03:36 PM

Stick with it Rod.....

My system is nowhere near as complex as yours and I am not having trouble with mine, the notebook is a little one too :)

rodm

27th March 2009, 03:52 PM

Hi Bob,
Thanks for the encouragement but at this stage I want the machine calibrated and running. Spending endless hours on tracking noise is not my idea of fun or something I know a lot about.
The worst of it is I hate things beating me but you also have to be smart enough to know when to stop.

Greolt

27th March 2009, 04:12 PM

C'mon Rod It is not in your nature to give up. :no:

Are the stepper drivers, SS etc on Morphy or the computer console?

You must plug in the USB cable when you wheel the console over to your machine.

Just have another earth cable. Plug that in as well.

Greg

rodm

27th March 2009, 04:32 PM

No doubt about it you and Bob are smooth (stepper) talkers. :D
Ok one last try tonight. Battery jumper cable from computer to left ear, other batttery jumper cable from right ear to Morphy - well something like that anyway.

Fingers crossed and I'll report back what happens

crocky

27th March 2009, 08:18 PM

GOOD :2tsup:

rodm

28th March 2009, 02:37 AM

The earth from the console to Morphy didn't help. So smoothstepper is gone and I wired all the limits to the CNC4PC board which means a 5 volt signal to the limits.

Noise is getting through on the limits now so it is like being between a rock and hard place.

With the smoothstepper I can use Greg's 12 volt limit board and I get no false triggering but the USB link drops out. This is a pain as you have to shut down Mach3 and the SS, disconnect the USB cable and start it all again. Not the way you want to operate a machine and it has made up my mind not to go with the SS becasue of the re-boot procedure.

The parallel port is reliable but the limits false trigger on 5 volts.

I am using a shielded cable for the limits and the shield is ground one end to the main earth. With the computer on, Mach3 loaded and the driver board active it false triggers within a minute. Turn the spindle on and it is guaranteed to false trigger every time. I can live with the spindle triggering the limits as a Mach3 reset gets you going again but not the random false limit signals.

Plan now is to fit another metal switchboard and move all the high voltage out and into the new cabinet. It was getting a bit tight with everything in there anyway and the wires for the limits were running parallel to the high voltage. All this will be a job for next week as I would really like to give the machine a run even if it means operating it without limits working.

If I can find a way to connect Greg's opto isolated board to the CNC4PC board then I am reasonably confident that I can overcome the noise on the limits.

Noise is a common problem so I will keep this up to date so that it might help others.

crocky

28th March 2009, 08:27 AM

Greolt

28th March 2009, 09:19 AM

Rod

Was the SS stable if VFD not running? Did you connect computer chassis to VFD earth lug?

SS has some quite sophisticated digital filtering. The PP has only a one size fits all. Try a debounce interval of 10,000 and see if that stops false limits.

If it does then try lowering it a bit at a time and see what happens.

Greg

EDIT: I may not have been clear. The debounce I mentioned is in Mach and affects the PP

Frankmc

28th March 2009, 09:21 AM

Hi Rod

Did you connect the outer shield of your motor vfd cable to ground at the motor end ???

Frank

stevejw

28th March 2009, 10:58 AM

Hi Rod,
With the noise on the limits cables you could try a simple ferrite ring on each cable as close to the control PCB as possible. These are a simple circular ferrite which you pass the cable through two or three times, which helps to filter out HF noise. We use them on DC brush motors and you will find ferrite rings and beads used for interfacing on electronics quite a lot. You will find on every power cable on laptop P/S and other cables to electronics, these are slightly different type that clamps around the cable.

You should be able to get the ring type in various sizes from Dick Smiths or Jaycar etc. This may not be the answer but it is worth a try and cheap to implement.

Cheers:U
Steve

epineh

28th March 2009, 11:46 AM

Hi Rod, you should be able to use Greg's opto board with your BOB, I would have to have a look at the schematic but it shouldn't take much altering if any.

I had the same problems and fixed it by using the motor supply voltage for my limits (in my case 30V) and a little opto board. I got lazy and used the perforated hole type board instead of making a board. My home made drives are noisy enough to kill the shed radio when they are on but I don't get any limit/estop trips any more.

The higher the voltage the better the noise immunity, if you can use 12 volts that should fix the problems.

Oh yeah, forgot to mention my limit switch cabling is unshielded and runs alongside the motor cabling for almost the whole distance.

Russell.

rodm

28th March 2009, 01:33 PM

Thanks for all the help - it is really appreciated and will also give some insight for others to follow.

I should have been clearer about my posts. My main goal is to get the machine cutting at the moment. I have been building on and off for seven months and want to see it work. I don't run a machine until all the guards and frilly bits are fitted otherwsie they never get finished.

The electronics is another issue and something I struggle with constantly. Big hands, poor eyesight and lack of knowledge makes it difficult and frustrating. I have put in four eight hour sessions at night with my head inside that box fiddling with the electronics. I am at a stage where I need to eliminate some of the variables and the SS is the first to go. The way I have it hooked up it is easy to connect it back in and have another go down the track but I will not be in a hurry to do that.

The VFD was not causing any problems with the SS but it is with the parallel port connection. The limits were also not causing any problems with the SS as Greg's board was able to be used and works at 12 volts. Why I don't like the SS is that if it disconnects you have to shut down Mach3, disconnect the USB and then fire it up again - result would be all references lost in Mach3 and job ruined. If the parallel port triggers then you simply hit the reset button and can continue with the job - fail safe.

I have taken on board all the suggestions and this is my plan of attack.

Remove all the high voltage from the electronics enclosure and install it in another switchboard on the machine. Greg has very kindly offered to make another 12 volt board for the limits that I can connect to the parallel port and I know this works so that will overcome the false triggering. I have only ground one end of the shield for the VFD/Spindle so will ground the motor end.

Let me know if I missed anything there.

So all this is not going to be an overnight fix but I think it is better to start again. Will keep you posted on the progress. If I make this through with a full head of hair and only a few barked knuckles I will be doing well. :)

Frankmc

28th March 2009, 05:28 PM

Hi Rod

I believe moving the noisy stuff into another housing will certainly help...But if you do still have problems may i suggest also installing a filter on the supply side of the vfd...

Many moons ago when i worked for a company which built cnc Laser cutting machines,they decided to install vfds on their transfer tables as it would allow them to ramp up and down the speed as required in both directions.(instead of DOL fwd/rev contactors).....anyhoo while commissioning the first install of the new vfd (SEW brand) i noticed everytime i initiated a transfer via the console the screen would go blank...while transfering..after a lot of hair loss ;-) which im sure your now familair with...we added a 3 phase filer (SEW brand whicn mounted under the drive) and all was well....A common brand of filter that i have used in the past is Westek...check out link
http://www.westek.com.au/index.html
Good Luck
Frank

rodm

28th March 2009, 06:39 PM

I am smiling and laughing at myself at the same time. :rolleyes:

When I was struggling with the smoothstepper many posts ago Greg mentioned about fluros triggering problems.

Well I have been working at night on this and I have a portable light with not one but three fluros and to fall into the trap a bit deeper this has been connected to the same power lead as the computer and the machine. Something as simple as that looks like it has been my problem all the time. The hint was there and if I had slowed down and thought about it I would have been running with the SS way back. Do I feel like a knucklehead - you bet ya

So I am running the CNC4PC board in parallel mode and have set the debounce in Mach3 to 1000 and been running the machine for a couple of hours, turning on and off the VFD, vacuum and air pump with not even one false trigger.

Thanks again to all for your suggestions. This forum is great for getting past these types of problems. :2tsup:

rodm

29th March 2009, 12:30 AM

Been running the machine for about eight hours and not one false trigger. I think that is as good a test for reliabilty that I need to do. It has been a roller coaster ride at the end but pleased with the final result.

Reclaimed the table top - read cleaned all the tools and materials off it. :)

I also made the touchplate and hard wired it into the machine so it is 100% mechanically and electrically complete now and I will dial the table in tomorrow and take it for a test drive. :oo:

If all goes well I will post some photos and maybe a video of it in action. I am going out tomorrow so time might be tight to get it all done but there will be something this week to show the air spindle in action. Looking forward to that.

My head is already thinking about the mill I am going to CNC so it doesn't stop here.

Zoot

29th March 2009, 02:59 AM

Rod,
I have been following all of your trials and tribulations with great interest and I must say a degree of trebitation in that all of my electrickery stuff is still ahead of me. :oo: I did get into the workshop for a bit yesterday and am working on my Y axis, so am starting to see some form coming out of the piles of components.

Glad to see that your tabletop has been cleared.:U

Cheers,

Alan

rodm

29th March 2009, 10:46 AM

Hi Alan,
I would not let my experience influence your thinking as I got too focused on the problem and had I stood back and seen the light :rolleyes: I would have been running a lot earlier.

Some pictures to show you how it ended up. Covers installed over the linear bearings, emergency stop installed, perspex covers on all the pulleys, air pump with outlet at the spindle and touchplate ready for action.

Hopefully I will get home early enough to dial the table in and give it a run.

crocky

29th March 2009, 08:52 PM

Good thing now :) and I won't mention that other thing..

Be good to see what you think of the spindle when it has cut a bit.

rodm

29th March 2009, 11:18 PM

Thanks Bob,
Consistency is good and when it comes to electrickery I am certainly consistent. :)

Got the table dialed in but didn't have enough time to give it a test run. Maybe tomorrow night.

I will give feedback on the spindle as I know there is a bit of interest with them.

rodm

30th March 2009, 07:56 PM

A very hastily put together video of Morph's first run.
The spindle noise is an improvment on the router but there is still a lot of cutter noise at that speed and feed. I didn't take much notice of the setting but it was around 3m/min and I did crank it up a bit as it was handling it well. I think I could crank it up more when I get used to the machine.
Anyway for a first run it is doing everything I wanted it to do

snowyskiesau

30th March 2009, 08:03 PM

Amazing stuff as always.
It's great to see the progress from a bunch of bits and pieces to a finished, almost living machine (I'm sure I heard it bark...)

And much better watching than anything that's on TV at the moment!

:2tsup:

crocky

30th March 2009, 08:19 PM

Very Nice :2tsup:

Does a beaut job.....

stevejw

30th March 2009, 09:49 PM

Rod,
Great movie after all your trials and tribulations it's great to see the beast dance like a graceful dancer.

Cheers
Steve:2tsup:

Greolt

30th March 2009, 10:04 PM

Great movie Rod. Great machine. Congratulations on Morphy's first steps. :2tsup:

What hp is that spindle?

Greg

rodm

31st March 2009, 12:46 AM

Thanks all for the feedback on my barking machine. :D

Greg it is a 800 watt (1 HP ??) air cooled spindle. They are a lot lighter than the water cooled jobs.

Zoot

31st March 2009, 09:18 AM

Rod,
Your last post indicated that your spindle was 800W. Is it the 3A or 4A model?
The 800W models are listed as 65mm dia x 225mm - 3A and 80mm dia x 225mm - 4A.
I am seriously considering going to a spindle rather than my Milwarkee die grinder that is very very noisy! But I would like to be able to use up to 1/2" router bits (I have lots!). What size colletts would I need for up to 1/2" and should I be looking at the 1500W models for this? I will mainly be routing signs into hardwood.
Cheers,

Alan

rodm

31st March 2009, 10:34 AM

Hi Alan,
I don't know the amps of this spindle as the ebay listing is gone and it is not marked on the spindle.
A 1.5kw spindle come with an ER16 collet. You need a ER20 collet for 1/2 inch shanks so that will take you to a 2.2kw spindle size.
There is less noise with the spindle but not a huge enough difference to discard the Milwaukee unless you plan to mount it on the WM.

rodm

31st March 2009, 11:05 AM

Hi Alan,
I missed the obvious again - it is a 65mm diam so 3 amp. Sorry about that.

twistedfuse

31st March 2009, 02:12 PM

Great video and its great to see another brilliant machine come to life. Just curious, where did you get your cable for your steppers? Was it screened/shielded? I'm just starting to collect some electronic stuff while i still try and sort out my reduction pulleys and gantry sides and cabling seems to be pretty dear for what i was looking at.

Well done again,
Daniel

rodm

31st March 2009, 05:07 PM

Thanks Daniel

Wiring and connectors do add up a bit. The wire I used is here (http://www.altronics.com.au/index.asp?area=item&id=W3121). Not shielded but mutlistrand so able to take a bit of flexing without breaking. Wires are colour coded so easy to connect each end without crossing over. Limit switch wire I used microphone lead which is shielded and rubber outer sleeve.

twistedfuse

1st April 2009, 10:39 AM

Thanks Rod,

They certainly do add up. I originally got a quote for some lap cables (screened and flexable - Made especially for industrial machines) but at $19 +gst per meter its a little out of the range for now. I am thinking that cable looks alot better. I just found a supplier of those loud speaker connectors, locable, like XLR but a little bigger and can be colour coded. The connectors are rated to 30A continuous, a little overkill but safe to use. I think i will order all these pieces soon. Get a start on the wiring so when the aluminum parts are sorted out i should be ready to roll.

Well done again, great work.
Daniel

Greolt

1st April 2009, 11:05 AM

These work well and are economical

Jaycar PP-2010 and PS-2012

Dick Smith P-1834 and P-1824

Greg

.

twistedfuse

1st April 2009, 11:18 AM

Hey Greg,

i have a whole stash of those that i bought ages ago, when i searched for the datasheet i wasn't too sure in using them on the new machine because they are suppost to only be rated to 3A continuous. The connectors i found aren't much dearer then those ones which is good but will keep my mind at ease. The only reason is that i will eventually run larger motors for the main axis.

Daniel

rodm

1st April 2009, 11:21 AM

I use those. :2tsup:

My spindle came with a 3 pin version of these so they must be able to handle a reasonable amperage.

Those meaning the one Greg pointed to - Daniel slipped a post in between.

twistedfuse

1st April 2009, 11:36 AM

Im sure they can handle the current(who knows maybe the data sheet i read was for cheap chinese knockoffs), there just on the edge of what i was looking for and i'd prefere to be on the safe side, plus if i do upgrade to 640oz/in motors they need to be able to handle about 4-5amps. Just just for re-assurance. If i found the right datasheet and it said otherwise i'll jump at the chance as i have 12 sets of those connectors in my cnc piles.

Daniel.

rodm

1st April 2009, 11:55 AM

Hi Daniel,
Wasn't trying to covince you to change you mind. You slipped a post in why I was replying. All's good.

twistedfuse

1st April 2009, 01:22 PM

Thats no worries at all, i didn't think you were trying to change my mind. I'd personally like it if they were ok since i'd save 40 bucks but im just over cautious. lol.

Daniel

John H

1st April 2009, 08:25 PM

She's a beauty Rod. Nice and fast compared to my little clunker. Plans for my new one have been put back a bit with the purchase of a new fishing boat.

rodm

1st April 2009, 08:56 PM

Thanks John,
You will have to carve two shingles - Gone fishing for the Shed
and My other hobby is CNC for the boat. :)

John H

1st April 2009, 10:23 PM

lol, I might just do that

crocky

3rd April 2009, 06:56 PM

Hi Rod,

Can you take a couple of pics of the inside of the electricery box now that it is working. I am about to start building in one of them :2tsup:

rodm

3rd April 2009, 09:35 PM

Here you go Bob
It is not finished as I have to fit a limit switch board and maybe connect the smoothstepper too - one day.

crocky

4th April 2009, 09:31 AM

Thanks Rod,

I really thought I was going to get a classified area message and no photo :2tsup: I really just needed the layout to get mine somewhat right...

Thanks...

crocky

4th April 2009, 12:08 PM

Hi Rod,

What is the board in the upper right hand corner? It does not look like a DC-06.

Did you clean your case up? Mine is going to need some work before it looks anywhere near as good as yours, it has got sticky things all over it :) It is all good fun though...

Greolt

4th April 2009, 12:32 PM

That's a GH-09 :U

rodm

4th April 2009, 12:42 PM

Hi Bob,
The board is a bit of electrickery magic made by a friend of ours. :2tsup: It is a 12 volt opto isolated limit switch bob and stopped all the noise on the limits with the smoothstepper.

I pulled out the DC-06 when I had trouble with the Smoothstepper. I might revisit this one day but it will not be in the near future and more likely never. I don't mind operating the spindle in manual mode and the VFD is set to analogue so the rotary dial can be used to ramp up the speed now. I recently got a Pokey and will work on another console with MPG down the track but the new mill will be first priority. It can do a lot of the turn on functions through that.

Yeah I cleaned up the case - well all three of them I got. The plastic labels can be removed easily - just lift one corner and don't be in a hurry to pull it off. I found if you just hold it upwards for a few seconds it gives the adhesive time to seperate and it peals back easier. A heat gun might make it easier for you. Turps or metho should remove all the gum from the cabinet.

The two acrylic labels on the front of the door are there to cover the holes from the power points and RCD. I have the vector artwork for the caution sign if you want it.

I don't know how you can say electrickery stuff is good fun.... :D

Greolt

4th April 2009, 01:13 PM

I pulled out the DC-06 when I had trouble with the Smoothstepper.
I might revisit this one day but it will not be in the near future and more likely never.

.

The DC-06 will run fine from the LPT.

According to your XML you have output pins 1, 14, 16 and 17 free. DC-06 will run the VFD from one pin although two is better.

Having the spindle turn itself off at the end of a job is worth it alone.

And it's so cool to have the gcode start the spindle and set the speed. :U

Greg

rodm

4th April 2009, 01:47 PM

Hi Greg,
At the moment the last thing I want to do is introduce more electrickery problems for myself. :oo:
I will probably revisit all this once I have used the machine and forgot about my comedy of errors. With my memory that probably won't be too long. :rolleyes:

crocky

4th April 2009, 07:25 PM

That makes some sense :)

I will probably do like you and use the 5 volt lines for the switches, have not got any at present so that will be a learning curve too :)

Thanks for the hint re the glue etc...

I'm not sure what I will put on the labels, top one will be the e-stop switch.

This is fun, I feel like kid with a new toy :2tsup:

rodm

12th April 2009, 01:15 PM

There hasn't been a post for a couple of days so I'll bore you with what I have been up to.
The console I built has a 12 inch touchscreen but the overlay on the screen for the touch bit is reflective and hard to see the screen outdoors. You can see from the photo by comparing the two screens what the problem is. I find I am bobbing around trying ot get the right angle to eliminate the reflections. So the solution was to fit a normal 19 inch monitor on top. I have the screens cloned so both display the same screen and with the 19 inch no problem with reflections. The text on the 19 inch is huge at 800 by 600 resolution and I can read it from the other side of the machine so added bonus. The touchscreen still works so I was pleased that is still functional.

I just tried out the camera for the positioning of X and Y and the on screen image on the 19 inch is huge and real easy to see. I will be using a wireless game control to jog the axes around so more of that when I get it working. I whacked in another USB port while I had the case open as I am running out of ports with all these extras.

rodm

12th April 2009, 01:56 PM

Well that was a lot easier than I thought it would be. Loaded the joystick plug in and it worked first time.
I now have wireless jogging and I'm sure I can get some of the other functions of the joystick working soon enough.
Great idea these as you don't have to worry about a cord like the shuttlepro.

Ch4iS

12th April 2009, 07:18 PM

rodm

12th April 2009, 08:20 PM

Thanks Chris,
The wireless controller works well and is convenient to use. If you use keygrabber then you can assign all the buttons to the keyboard shortcuts. Very easy to configure and I was up and runnig in minutes.

Geoff Sims

13th April 2009, 12:08 AM

I never would have thought of a wireless remote controller. You just keep coming up with great ideas. Boy, have I got a lot to learn.

You're machine is just great....and getting better all the time.

Cheers

rodm

13th April 2009, 12:28 AM

Thanks Geoff
Credit goes to Art, Brian and the crew at Mach3 for doing the work to interface all these things to Mach3. They have two plugins for joysticks and keygrabber for anything else so without all this you wouldn't be able to talk to the software.

This was incredibly easy to get going - so much so I kept asking myself OK where is the trap. :)

I used to have a ShuttlePro but gave it away as I didn't like the cord dangling and the unit was big and got in the way all the time.

X, Y positioning camera tomorrow. :2tsup:

phomann

14th April 2009, 04:21 PM

Hi Bob,

I pulled out the DC-06 when I had trouble with the Smoothstepper. I might revisit this one day but it will not be in the near future and more likely never.

Hi Rod,

Is it the DC-06 that you are having trouble with? If so I'm sure I can get it working with your setup..

Cheers,

Peter.

rodm

14th April 2009, 05:27 PM

Hi Peter,
Thanks for the offer and I might take you up on it later on. No problerm with the DC-06 as I didn't even try to connect at this stage. After my problems with noise and disconnecting the SS I lost interest in anything but the basics to get the machine running. I will revisit later on and add all the bells and whistles.

To answer your other question about spindles the air coooled is run by an electric fan so is not prone to the usual fan noise you get from a brushed motor. There is very little if any difference in noise between the air cooled and water cooled spindles but the water cooled spindle is much heavier. I don't know if this is due to the water jacket or more heavy duty. I have only run the air cooled on this machine for a couple of hours and my first impressions are good but don't expect it to be a huge difference in noise from a brushed motor. Cutter noise seems to be the main issue.

If you go for a water cooled job then get a positive pressure water pump. The pond type submersibles have trouble with the small diam tube and the head of fluid to the spindle. There are some good 12 volt pumps on ebay that are suitable.

phomann

14th April 2009, 05:59 PM

Hi Rod,

Thanks for the feedback. I think I'll go for the Air cooled at this stage. One of my main issues to overcome is that I want to mill plastic (All sorts) and need to slow down the spindle speed. I'm thinking of using a Taig mill headstock with a 2:1 reduction.

As to the DC-06, if you find you don't need it, I'm happy to provide a refund.

Cheers,

Peter.

rodm

14th April 2009, 10:06 PM

Hi Peter,
More than happy to keep the DC-06 as it will be put in service one day. The fitter is the problem here and going through a learning curve. Fortunately I have some very good electronics friends that keep me honest before I fire up the switch.

I have built a small Gantry Router and fitted a Sherline Industrial spindle 10k variable speed and ER16 collet check. Motor, controller and spindle was brought as a unit. Was a very good unit (actually excellent) and a lot quieter than the 3 phase Chinese spindles. It worked out far better than I expected and here is a video of it cutting 16mm aluminum plate.
YouTube - Spindle Mounts
and another cutting a wood panel
YouTube - CNC Gantry Router with Sherline Spindle
The second video will give you a better idea of noise as there is some free air shots while moving that you can hear the spindle running. Both videos are at the full 10k speed.
Link to their indusrial page is here
http://www.sherlineipd.com/spindles.htm
I got the bigger pulley, motor kit through the original Sherline owner here in Australia.

I have also done a hybrid mill and about to build another using the Sieg X2 head. With a pulley kit these go about 4.5k from memory and run very quiet as well. They have a MT3 or R8 spindle and you can get those thorough LMS. I think you are better following the Taig route than one of these though.

I have started cutting plastics at 3500mm/min and it makes a big difference to the quality of cut - I am now getting full size chips off the cutter. The constant air blowing on the cut from the aquarium pump also clears all the chips so no recutting or melting to the job. Sort of compensates for the higher speed of the spindle.

Hope some of that CNC waffle is usefull.

Geoff Sims

15th April 2009, 12:33 AM

Thanks Rod

Your info and videos re the Sherline spindle were very interesting.

My original intention for my build was to fit a water cooled spindle. However, circumstances have changed and finances won't accommodate it at this time. My alternative is to fit something like a Milwaulkee die grinder, a setup which I know you have used previously.

Is there a better alternative for similar dollars do you think? Is the Sherline still an option? Better/worse?

It gets very confusing and these decisions are difficult to make.

Cheers

rodm

15th April 2009, 01:29 AM

Hi Geoff,
My adventures in other spindles was becasue of opportunity and primarily for noise reduction.
There is nothing wrong with a die grinder and it is the lowest price quality spindle you can put on a CNC machine. It is also the noisiest at free spinning due to brush and fan noise but this is negated once the cutter noise comes into play. It really isn't that much noisier than a Chinese 3 phase spindle when cutting.
The disadvantage is that you are limited by collet size of 1/4 inch or 6mm depending on the brand. Brushes and bearings need replacing about every 500 hours.
The advantages are lowest cost, variable speed, good power, easy to mount, takes side load on bearings, don't weight much and can be serviced or replaced at lower cost.

I will group the Sherline and X2 head as they are similar units. By far the lowest noise and plenty of torque low down. Slow reving in comparison to other spindles so not really suitable for timber and composites although they do the job. Much heavier than a die grinder. About 2 times the cost of a die grinder and more complex having a seperate motor and drive controller. Can have different size collets to cover a much wider range of cutters.

Chinese spindles. We all were waiting for an affordable commercial spindle and it was only six (?) months ago these came on the market. They are 2 plus times the cost of a die grinder and have more power than a die grinder. They are heavier than a die grinder and can be quite heavy depending on the model and size. Water cooling and a VFD make it the most complex to mount on a machine. I am expecting a much longer life from the spindles as they are induction motors and have industrial bearings. They have ER series collets so can operate a bigger range of cutters.
Not as noisy as a die grinder but not a huge improvement when cutter noise comes in.

None of the above are ideal so it boils down to personal preference and how far you want to dip in the pocket. Anybody else feel free to add to the pros and cons and disagree so it is balanced for others to make a decision.

Do you think it would help if we had a poll to see what CNC'ers are using?

phomann

15th April 2009, 08:50 PM

Hi Rod,

Thanks for the videos. I've just ordered the 0.8KW air cooled spindle and VFD. The spindle body is 65mm x 160mm. I'll run it as is until I sort out how to do the lower speed solution. I may go a similar route to you .

At the moment I'm drawing up the motor mounts, very similar to yours. What thickness are aluminum rings in the mounts? They look like 10mm thick?

Cheers,

Peter.

Greolt

15th April 2009, 09:32 PM

I think you made the right choice Peter. It will suit that Romax very nicely.

If you overlook the cost of the VFD it is not much dearer than a die grinder.

Now you need to get on to a US ebay seller that can supply 1/8" and 1/4" ER11 collets. In a router these are the two sizes you need.

Greg

rodm

15th April 2009, 09:50 PM

Hi Peter,
The mounts are 16mm plate on that machine but if you can mount 10mm or better 12mm to your Z plate then that should be OK too. The cylinder of the spindle is very rigid and will help stiffen the assembly.

Greg,
The ER11 collets come in 0.5mm sizes so I didn't bother with fractional collets. Certainly a different story with the ER16 as they come in 1mm increments. The collets are split from both ends so presumably pull down parallel to the shank. Without a dial gauge to check runout it looks to be OK. I do recommend getting a new nut as the one supplied is for an ER11A or that could be B but it doesn't have the double ring to pull the collet out.

Greolt

15th April 2009, 10:02 PM

But if you have to buy collets why not get the sizes for the tools you will use. :)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ER-11-COLLET-IN-FRACTION-AND-METRIC-MANY-SIZE-AVAILABLE_W0QQitemZ270370258435QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Tool_Work_Holding?hash=item270370258435&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262

Unlike the Taig, this being a router, 99% of the time tools will have a 1/8 or 1/4 shaft.

Greg

rodm

15th April 2009, 10:16 PM

Hi Greg,
I agree most will probably only use the 1/8th and 1/4 but I use a lot of 4mm carbide 2 flutes as they are much stronger than 1/8. I also have a lot of 6mm carbide cutters because I got them at reasonable prices probably because they were 6mm and not 1/4 :)
For me it made sense to get a set from HK at around the same price of getting two fractional ones from the US.
Example (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/FULL-ER11-COLLET-SET-13-PCS-CNC-MILLING-LATHE-NEW-A02_W0QQitemZ110376619380QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_BnI_Woodworking_Metalworking?hash=item110376619380&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A1%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318)

Greolt

15th April 2009, 10:28 PM

I have a full set of metric and a 1/8 and 1/4 for both the mill and the router. ER16 and ER25

In the mill I use all sizes. Hold drills, end mills, all sorts.

In the router I have never even touched the metric sizes. So for me they were just a waste.

Just goes to show we are all different in our uses. :U

Greg

phomann

15th April 2009, 11:18 PM

Greg,

Thanks for the collet link. I was thinking of getting a set something like;

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=110372500752

Cheers,

Peter.

Greolt

15th April 2009, 11:25 PM

Yes that is the same supplier that Rod pointed to earlier.

I have bought from him also. No problems. Unfortunately he can not source imperial collets.

Greg

Geoff Sims

16th April 2009, 01:50 AM

Hi Rod

Thanks for the info on the spindles. I think for the time being I'll use a die grinder. I went to Toolmart today and they only had two on hand to choose from, a Bosch and a Milwaulki, both for the same price. I don't know which is best, but lean towards the Milwaulki. There may be better for the same dollars, but I don't know what or where.

I like your suggestion about a poll, but I haven't a clue how to set one up. It would be interesting.

Cheers

rodm

16th April 2009, 02:31 AM

Hi Geoff,
Eighteen months ago I would have said Bosch but having got one back then and having the bearings fail a couple of weeks ago I am sitting on the fence now.

The Milwaukee is still going strong but hasn't done the hours the Bosch has.

They do a lot of hours and I give them a hard time cutting 10mm aluminum sheet for gantry sides, etc so I am not complaining about the service they have given.

The Bosch will get new brushes and bearing when I get time to service it.

phomann

16th April 2009, 11:51 AM

Thanks Greg,

I bought a set of metric collets plus 2 extra collet nuts. I also bought a couple of 1/8", 3/16" and 1/4" collets from the US Guy.

I should be set now.

On another note, the baseplate for the Romaxx router is MDF 14" x 24", with 6 countersunk mounting holes. I want to make a baseplate out of that white bench top material that Nigel has.

Apart from the mounting holes, there are a number of slall holes down each side for mounting the sheet metal guards. I can probably do then by hand.

The plate has a whole lot of mounting hiles in it that will be threaded. I can do these one the plate is mounted on the router.

I want to use this plate to then mount a sacrifical MDF plate to when necessary.

Would your router be big enough to cut and drill it? I've attached the dxf so you can see what I'm talking about.

Cheers,

Peter.

phomann

16th April 2009, 12:01 PM

Hi Peter,
The mounts are 16mm plate on that machine but if you can mount 10mm or better 12mm to your Z plate then that should be OK too. The cylinder of the spindle is very rigid and will help stiffen the assembly.

Hi Rod,

Thanks for that advice. I bought a couple of extra Collet nuts.

I know I have some 10mm and possibly 12mm plate around. My plan was to mount the 2 spindle supports onto a 10mm flat plate that is screwed to the Z-axis. I was thinking of cutting 2mm deep slots (rebates?) into the flat plate that the spindle supports mount to to help locate them. Not sure if this is necessary though.

I am thinking of using 6mm cap screws to mount the supports to the flat plate if the supports are 10mm thick, otherwise 8mm id the plate is 12mm thick.

I attached a photo showing the Z-axis.

Cheers,

Peter.

rodm

16th April 2009, 12:09 PM

I used two 6mm caps on a butt joint for each motor mount and it is fine. Just make sure that the head of the cap screw does not foul the linear bearings on the axis. Use round head or countersunk if needs be.

phomann

16th April 2009, 12:39 PM

Rod,

Thanks for that. I'll go for 10mm plate and 6mm Capscrews then.

Cheers,

Peter.

Greolt

16th April 2009, 01:27 PM

On another note, the baseplate for the Romaxx router is MDF 14" x 24", with 6 countersunk mounting holes. I want to make a baseplate out of that white bench top material that Nigel has.

Apart from the mounting holes, there are a number of small holes down each side for mounting the sheet metal guards. I can probably do then by hand.

The plate has a whole lot of mounting holes in it that will be threaded. I can do these one the plate is mounted on the router.

No worries Peter. I have a piece here that is big enough. 1/2" off white colour.

As far as tapping holes in it, I have done it and they are OK to put a bolt in it and leave it but the thread will not take fitting and removing bolts multiple times. Perhaps a threaded insert.

Maybe consider a piece of aluminium. The machine is worth it. :U

Greg

phomann

16th April 2009, 05:29 PM

Hi Greg,

Thanks for your offer, I'll take you up on it. Eventually I'll get some aluminium plate and do what you suggest.

At least I'll have a nice machine to show at the next BBQ. :U

Cheers,

Peter.

Greolt

16th April 2009, 05:51 PM

I will look forward to seeing it. I have long admired these little Romax machines.

I will be away till next week. PM or email me with your Ph No. and I will give you a ring when I get back.

Greg

rodm

24th May 2009, 01:36 PM

Now that I have caught up on the backlog of jobs that mounted up while I was making this machine I decided to revisit the dreaded electrickery.

I found out the computer in the console was the problem and despite adding heaps of memory and swapping video cards it was solving one problem and creating another.
I dug out an older computer and added more memory and my problems disappeared one by one.

I am now running the smoothstepper again and have the machine fully functional and stable. The touchplate, video camera positioning and slaved axis homing all work as they should.

There was a lot of mucking around with the parameters but most of it is logical.
The only thing left now is spindle control thorugh the DC06 but I will leave that for another day.

The main reason for this post is to let it be known it is not always the drivers that are the problem. The computer I had problems with drives many machines without a hitch but this combination of electronics caused a lot of peripheral problems. The trick with all this is finding out through trial and error what the problem is.

crocky

24th May 2009, 06:57 PM

Hi Rod,

Good stuff - the smoothstepper working is really good :2tsup:

Glad you have tried it again :)

rodm

4th November 2009, 03:36 AM

Hi all,
To bring this thread up to date as a fair bit has happened since the last post.

I have built and attached a ModIO console and mounted a Shuttle computer in the main body of the machine.

Space has been a problem and since I built this machine under the patio I had not been able to move it to a protected area until recently
.
I enclosed half my carport with a steel framed and fibro cladded Machine Room. As soon as the side fence was knocked down I moved the X3 CNC'd mill and Morphy into the main body of the Machine room and built the room around both machines.
I have been smart enough to fit double doors on the exit side of the room so large machines can be moved from the room.

Unfortunately I also has to sell off a lot of gear as well as farm out three ute loads of acrylic and MDF sheeting. Obott was a casualty but it has gone to a good home and is being re-fitted with new electronics and motors.

It has taken a lot of time for a mug like me to finish the room but given I shine a seat with my bum all day I am pleased I was able to build the room by myself. Mind you it was a couple of cartons job and I will not be rushing into building anything like this again.

So the machine room is now finsihed and Morphy has pride of place with plenty of lighting and a couple of blankets to keep it warm at night. :-

The room has suppressed the noise so I can machine later into the night than I have been able to before.

rodm

4th November 2009, 03:52 AM

I have a weeks work cleaning up the shed and storing all the other things that have been residing under the patio. I reckon by the time I am finished there is a good chance SWMBO will be talking to me again. :D

For the observant - in one of the pictures in the previous post there is a completed Z axis so a glimpse of things to come. The machine room construction has wet my appetite to build more machines and I have lots of plans on the burner. 6 axis machine, another hybrid mill, spindle experiments and tool changer just to mention a few ideas.