Alpha Zoot ... new aussie machine on the way!

[Zoot]

With Geoff and Rod starting new machines, I felt that I should get under way. So the design process has started ... well I have redesigned it numerous times both on paper and in my head and as you will see I am no where near finished in my thinking processes ... but I have come up with a name! Alpha Zoot.
I have attached a couple of sketches showing my thinking for the X rails and I will work out from there.
I am planning a table to v-carve timber signs, so am looking at a nominal cutting area of about 1500 x 900 and probably about 150 to 200 Z cutting height. At this stage am looking at modest cost options ... die grinder, round rails rather than the expensive square ones, mdf table with mdf t-slots, ball screws on X axis (still considering Y & Z options).
I was rather keen to follow down Crocky's path and make the table from the T-Slot aluminium and I will cost it out like that, but talking to a mate last night, he indicated that he was a welding superstar (my words not his) so might be able to go for the 'mostest cost' option of using steel.

I was looking at belt driven X axis, then considered R&P, but following the KISS principal I think I will look at a single central ball screw if the 1600 length is not a problem.

The X axis drawings show 16mm round support rails from 'linearmotionbearing' ebay supplier. I was planning on square rails on the side of the X axis beams, but opted for a top mount for better support, given that they project a lot more than square rails ... 45mm compared to 24mm.

Gantry ends will be 10mm aluminium and as you can see Y & Z axes still in head planning stage!

Thoughts and suggestions would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Alan

[snowyskiesau]

Zoot,
Looks like you're doing things the right way - design first, then build!

I shall keep a close eye on this thread, is plagiarism allowed? :;

[rodm]

is plagiarism allowed?

Yes until you get caught. :D


Hi Alan,
My thoughts and I have to warn you I am a backyard hack and are not qualified to answer this.
The 900 width (actually 1100) should be OK with a single ballscrew but make sure your under belly plate is as wide as you can get it. This will stop the racking in the gantry sides. You can use 5mm ally plate for this.
A single ballscrew 1600 long is really pushing it and might cause a couple of problems. First is whipping in the screw. This can be reduced by going larger diameter screws but then you have an issue of the screw weighting too much for the steppers to accellerate them at a reasonable rate. My suggestion is to have a look at the rotating nut design. The means the screw is fixed and the nut is connected to the stepper and the nut rotates along the length of the screw. Quite a clever design but you will still need to go to 20 or even 25mm screws for that length. The R&P is my preference in anything over 1200mm.
The position of your X axis rails is good for support but they are sitting ducks for swarf/dust. The rails have seals but I would design in a way that gives them some protection from the firing line of the spindle. Perhaps a thin plate running on the inside (towards the spindle) extending upwards as high as the underside of the gantry will be a sloution. No need to go that high but I'm sure you get the idea. If you go with the steel channel then you will iether have to shim (cigarette paper, etc) under the rails to keep them flat. Alternative will be to have the top face of the channel machined - this is not always successful as the steel can distort as the pressures in the steel are relieved with machining.
Gantry sides may need beefing up. While you have a very compact fixing arrangment you might see some flex and a simple solution is a 40 mm bar fixed at right angles to the sides - like a T piece.
I like your design and you have given a lot of thought to how it all fits together. The gap between the table and sides for clamping, table T slots, material choices and compact design is good. The X axis ballscrew you might like to swing a bit higher in your design.
Last thing think about making your table top adjustable. I do this by using a grub screw pushing the table up and a socket screw holding it down.
These comments are the ramblings of a novice so only take on board what you think is worth considering.

[rodm]

Sorry Alan should have read the text. You gantry sides will be fine with 10mm plates.

[Zoot]

Rod,
Thank you for your suggestions ... very helpful.
I had previously looked at using the traditional square rails mounted on the outside of the X axis channels, but went to the round rails under my 'modest cost' test and felt that mounting them on the top of the channels would give them more support and negate the bending moment that they would have experienced on the sides. I appreciate that they will be open to dust and swarf and that was the reason that I set the working table down somewhat. The dust screen could easily be installed if needed.

I have always liked your idea of fixing the table top with adjusting grub screws and plan on buying a 'dial thingame' to do the final adjustment on the finished surface.

Whilst I have no experience with a table of this size, I was concerned with the possibility of whip in a ballscrew of that length. My very first concept was to use a dual belt drive system similar to the Solsenya (?) mdf table with the X stepper mounted on the gantry bottom cross brace, but Greolt had suggested that stretch could/would be a problem. Not wanting to have separate steppers for each side, do you think it possible to mount a side to side drive rod under the table with one stepper running a rack and pinion under each X axis channel? I will look at some concept and post it for comment.

I am just looking at the Y & Z axes and can't find a solution to use the round rails because they protrude too far. I suppose it would be possible to put them on both the top and bottom of the Y axis and swing the stepper and ballscrew to the back of the cross beam to keep the motor mount as close as possible to the cross beam and I could probably do something similar to the Z axis.

Have you had any experience with the 'Drylin' linear slides. As i read it ... no bearings but slippery lining made of 'Igidur J'. Would these be any good for Y & Z axes and am not sure where to buy them anyway and whether they are economical.

Must to bed to dream up some more ideas.

Cheers,

Alan

[rodm]

Hi Alan,
I think the best way is keep it simple. Adding a driving rod from one side to the other complicates things. What happens if one of your connections slips and puts the gantry out of square. Major job to fix and these things usually happen at the worst posible time.
Two steppers can also get out of allignment by missed steps but simply home the axis and that will bring it back in allignment. Mind you I prefer two steppers because that is how I am going to build my machine. :wink:
I don't think you should be worried about the distance the rails protrude. You have to squeeze a ballnut in there so a bit of clearance is needed. You can always put a crank in the gantry sides to compensate or mount the Y axis plate to the back of the gantry sides. The round rails are good and I have a set on my first machine. Still running and no detectable play. The ones with aluminum support along their length are much stronger.
Your idea to mount the rails on the edges rather than the face will work fine.
Sorry I haven't heard of Drylin bearings.
Dial thingames are handy little dodads.

[Zoot]

Thanks again Rod. Will put my thinking cap on again in relation to the rack & pinion idea. I saw Geolts r&p machine at the Melbourne BBQ but did not absorb the details. I have asked for Greolts help on that issue. It also seems that twistedfuse's proposed design is a similar size to mine and am trying to make contact with him to share ideas. He is just down the mountain from me ... probably 45 minutes away.

Cheers,

Alan

[rodm]

You might be able to twist his arm into cutting a pair of cranked ganrty sides. :2tsup:

[Greolt]

Alan

For more of an idea of how I put my machine together look at this link,

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28979

Any questions that you might have, ask away. :)

Greg

[Zoot]

Thanks Greg,
I had looked at that thread before, but could not find it again ... seniors moment!

Alan

[Zoot]

Dear Design Team ...

I have been working on some gantry / Z axis geometry and have come up with the following ...
Table side rails ... 102 x 51 steel channel ('modest cost option')
Cross members ... 50 x 50 steel angle either welded under the side rails or bolted on under the channel
Table ... 19mm MDF
T-Slots ... 2 x 12mm MDF fixed to table top and whole lot bolted and grub screwed to the steel cross angles (bought myself a dial thingame yesterday at the Canberra Wood Show, so should be able to true the table at the appropriate time!)
Gantry beam ... 8020 120 x 40 T-Slot
Gantry ends ... 10mm alum plate ... have tried to keep gantry as low as possible
Rails ... am trying out the round rail option to fit my 'modest cost' criteria! ... X axis - SBR 16mm dia. fully supported rail, same rail used for both Y & Z axes
Trucks/carriages ... SBR 16mm bearing blocks
Y & Z axes ... ballscrews
X axis ... R&P, if I can work out how to make it work ... have photos of Greolt's R&P setup that I am going over with a magnifying glass! Greg, how did you fix the rack with the slope on the flange of the channel? Also, using a stepper each side of the X axis, presumably one goes one way and the other the other way ... does that mean I would need a 4 axis driver or how do you made the two steppers talk to eachother and keep the gantry in sync?
Clearance ... have gone for 175mm
Motor ... will opt for a Milwaurkee Die Grinder at this stage, althought would love to go down the spindle route ... but need to crawl first!

Cheers,

Alan

[Greolt]

Alan some thoughts. To be heeded or disregarded at your discretion. :)

Table side rails ... 102 x 51 steel channel ('modest cost option')

Once you have gone with the raised side beams option and accepted the disadvantages that brings, then you might as well go 150mm channel. The stouter the gantry sides are the more rigid they are. Keep the cross member nice and close to the bearing blocks.

Cross members ... 50 x 50 steel angle either welded under the side rails or bolted on under the channel

Don't weld the cross table supports to the bottom of the channel. It will distort it. Bolt them.

Greg, how did you fix the rack with the slope on the flange of the channel?

The channel I used has parallel flanges. No special preparation for the rack. Did however machine top and bottom for bearings and support angles to be true to each other. Channel is hot rolled and has much less stress than cold rolled steel. Machining both sides created no discernible distortion.

I drilled and taped the rack from the back. I think if done carefully you could tack weld them. Just a few 20mm tacks each side. This would need care and restraint for the same reason as above

Also, using a stepper each side of the X axis, presumably one goes one way and the other the other way ... does that mean I would need a 4 axis driver or how do you made the two steppers talk to each other and keep the gantry in sync?

Yes each motor needs it's own driver. Mach3 handles slaved axis well. I presume EMC2 would also.

will opt for a Milwaurkee Die Grinder at this stage Good choice.

Greg

[rodm]

Hi Alan,
Now you are getting there. :2tsup:
How about this for an idea - On the Y axis move the bottom bearing to the same position but at the back of the 8020 ally. Same with the ballscrew and then make ally box around the Y axis. This way your linear slides and ballscrew are protected from the direct fire of the router and you effectively move the Z axis back a little.
Yes you need four axis driver and you just slave the A axis with the X axis and yes your motors spin in opposite direction - both functions you do in Mach3 settings.

Have you given your brain a rest yet?

[Zoot]

Greg,
Can't believe the speed of your response ... I was umming and arrhing about the size of the side rails so will go up a size. I am happy to bolt the cross rails on ... can't weld for nuts! Everything I have welded on the farm seems to fall apart ...bolting seems great. All the other items noted as well.
One thing I was going to ask you was how is your angle made on the gantry ends ... I can't see any bolts and it looks like an alum angle.

Cheers,

Alan

[Zoot]

Rod, Thanks for the Y axis suggestion ... am still trying to get my head around it! But my granddaughter is visiting from Sydney, so am juggling thinking with cuddles (nearly 5 months old and gorgeous!)

Cheers,

Alan

[Greolt]

Alan

I don't think my explanation for increasing the channel size was very clear.

Increasing the channel height would allow the gantry end plates to be more compact for the same gantry clearance height.

Bringing the cross member attachment closer to the X axis bearing mounts.

One thing I was going to ask you was how is your angle made on the gantry ends ... I can't see any bolts and it looks like an alum angle.

Yes it is angle. I found it second hand somewhere.

Greg

[Zoot]

Some further developments in the planning for your consideration and comment. I still have to work out how to fine tune the R&P for the X axis, but conceptually it should work ... I will look at the Greolt build log again, with magnifying glass! Greg, how did you do the bottom of the ballscrew on the Z axis ... it looks like a small block screwed to the plate but it must have a bearing in it somewhere!
I have ordered my Xylotex 4 axis driver and 4 269oz steppers, but need to finalise the overall geometry so I can order the rails and ballscrews etc.

Thanks for your earlier comments, I had a nice Father's Day escaping to the computer when I could.

Cheers,

Alan

[rodm]

Hi Alan,
I see you have got the Z axis closer to the Y axis. This is what I was trying to explain in part but if you move the bottom rail to the back in the same position as the ballscrew - but at the bottom you can shorten your gantry sides even more. It will also place the bottom rail out of the firing line of the router.
Other than that suggestion I cannot fault your design. :2tsup:\

[Frankmc]

Hi Alan

Hope you dont mind but i have printed out copies of your table for future reference...

Just a suggestion ...I would make a couple of the 50mm angle cross beams? longer and have it protruding out the back of the machine and use these to mount c channel alley onto ..this would be used to guide the cat track / cable chain or whatever you guys call it .
Frank

[Greolt]

Alan

You did ask for comment.........:)

The spindle mounting plate meets the channel and is the limit of Y axis travel so increase the width of the Y to Z connecting plate to almost meet the Gantry side plate. This will spread the Y axis bearings a little with no loss of travel.

Extend the gantry side plate down to near the top of channel. Have the X axis drive swivel pin as close to the line of the rack as is practical.

What I would do is take that one step further and position the X axis bearings so the the gantry side plates could extend down past the channel. This will bring the opportunity to have the swivel pin in line with the rack.

On the reduction drive units you will need to provide more support for the pinion shaft. I realise you have not got to that part yet. :)

Greg

[Zoot]

Rod,
Is this the sort of thing you had in mind?

Cheers,

Alan

[rodm]

Hi Alan,
Now we are on the same page. It is a bit of extra work but I like the rails protected from dust/swarf.
Are you using the 120x40 Item aluminium profile for the gatry cross piece?
I am looking at their profiles now trying to decide which one to use for my machine.

[Zoot]

Hi Alan,
Now we are on the same page. It is a bit of extra work but I like the rails protected from dust/swarf.
Are you using the 120x40 Item aluminium profile for the gatry cross piece?
I am looking at their profiles now trying to decide which one to use for my machine.
Thanks Rod.
Yes I was proposing to use the 120 x 40 Item aluminium.
Cheers,
Alan

[Greolt]

Alan

What drawing software are you using?

Greg

[rodm]

Greg,
What size did you use on your machine?
They do not have a catalogue on line and I am trying to work out what is the best (read strongest) I should go for. About 1100 long and I will hang a 1.5kw spindle on it.
Thanks,
Rod

Alan,
Sorry to butt in on your thread but it seems pointless to start a new thread for this.

[Zoot]

Alan

What drawing software are you using?

Greg
Greg,
I am using a program called Vectorworks on a Mac computer. I have had it for years and is an old version and a number of things don't work, but I can't justify the $1.5K to buy the latest version. It is a 3D program, but I have never worked out how to use that, so I just bubble along and use the 2D capabilities and pretend I am back on a drawing board, which i did in my early 20's!!
Cheers,
Alan

[Greolt]

Greg,
What size did you use on your machine?



I used "ITEM" brand from Linear Bearings,

http://www.linearbearings.com.au/Products/AluminiumBuildingSystem/BasicProfileAccessories/tabid/93/Default.aspx

"120 x 80 heavy"

Expensive but I saw this as one of the critical components around which my design revolved.

Greg

[Greolt]

Alan

One thing occurred to me. I am a bit slow and dull sometimes. :rolleyes:

Fixing method for the supported rails to the tee slot material.??

Linear rails have one row of bolts down the centre so work well with the slot.

How does it work with the supported rails?

If not using the slot then perhaps cheaper options come into play. RHS maybe.

Greg

[rodm]

Thanks Greg,
I agree about rigidity and will follow your example. If smaller section fails then it is a big job to upsize once it is installed. I'll go and order some tomorrow.

Alan,
Greg does have a good point about matching the rail mountings to the ally section.

If you are settled on the 8020 you can always work a connection to the slots - adapter plate between rail support and slots. Perhaps you might be able to pick up two of the slots in the 8020 section using this method.

[Zoot]

Greg,
Following your thinking on the gantry rail, you are correct that I am not really using the t-slots at all except for the end fixing by tapping into the centre holes (I think that is how you did Crocky's rail).
I have done a blow up of how the round rails would fix to the gantry rails ... the holes in the rail support are 30 apart and 150 centres. The holes are 5.5, so assume intended for M5 machine screws. Just looking at it, there seems to be sufficient meat in the extrusion to allow it to be drilled and tapped.
If I went with a plain aluminium RHS, I would have to fix it to the gantry ends with angles on each side, which whilst possible may not look as neat!! Am I being pedantic?

Thanks for your feedback.
Alan

[Greolt]

Looks like it would work Alan.

All but the top row of holes on the bottom rail have a reasonable amount of "meat" to tap into.

The top rail holes would need to be drilled with some care as the drill will try to run off course when it only cuts on one side.

My comment about RHS being a cheaper alternative if not using the slots was refering to a heavy walled steel RHS. Heavy enough to tap into.

Greg

[Zoot]

Planning update ... have been laid up for a day or so with the dogs disease! With the feedback from Greg and Rod, I have made some fairly major revisions including increasing the gantry rail from 40-4012 to 40-8016, that's 80mm wide and 160 deep and should beef up that to allow a spindle at some stage down the track!
I have dropped the gantry ends down below the rail and the rack which has allowed me to drop the pivot point for the r&p motor plates. I have increased the width of the Z axis backing plate to allow the Z axis rails to be pushed further apart. I have also come up with a preliminary design for the X axis motor plates, but need to get some info from Greg in relation to the r&p configuration ... rack size/pitch, pinion size, reduction pulley size, belt size and motor pulley size... sorry lots of questions.

Cheers,

Alan

[rodm]

Hi Alan,
Looks good to me. :2tsup:

[Greolt]

You have certainly upped the ante with that much larger tee slot section Alan.

Might be in for a shock when you find out how much it costs. :) Maybe something in between.

What I said about spreading the width of the plate between the Z and Y might have been misunderstood.

My idea would be to make the Z member (Router mount) as narrow as is practically reasonable. Just wide enough to fix the bearing blocks with ballscrew between.

At the full extent of Y axis travel this will come against the main side members (channel). When that happens there is still space for the Y axis plate to be a bit wider because it stays above the channel.

An increase the width of the Y plate will spread the spacing of the Y bearing blocks with no loss of Y axis travel.

I have attached a pic to illustrate what I mean. Not trying to infer you should do all exactly what I did. Just to get an idea across. :)

Greg

[Zoot]

Yes Greg. I did get a shock ... $370.00 for one length 1160mm long. Am currently looking at other options.

Xylotex drives and steppers have arrived and I have ordered my rails and ballscrews from China.

Chasing up local suppliers for the metal table frame and aluminium for the gantry.

Not long now before the rubber hits the road!!

Cheers

Alan

[rodm]

Hi Alan,
I know what you mean. It took a week to get some over to Perth and for a 1200mm length of 120/80 heavy it cost $240 and another $56 for the T nuts. I want this machine to be mickey duck so I just grin and bear it. :D
I also got a 5.5 metre length of 76 by 76 by 10mm angle to mount my rails on for the X axis. Not as bad as the 120/80 but it is not cheap. Mind you steel went up an average of 25% in July so expect a few surprises there as well.
I was actually thinking about drawing it up while I was in the shed tonight but when I sat in front of the computer I lost interest. :rolleyes: I am sitting here doing a couple of sketches on on a bit of scrap paper so does that make up for it?

[Zoot]

Design update # ??
I seem to be getting really left behind by Rod and Twisted Fuse ... but I am making some progress!
I think I mentioned that I have ordered my rails and ballscrews from China, so just waiting for them to arrive. Have been pricing steel, r&p, pulleys and belts etc AND have modified the design to accomodate 120 x 80 t-slot for the gantry beam. I have also finalised (well, as finalised as things get here!) the swing plates for the r&p reduction gear and stepper etc.
Now, what colour should I paint it??

Anyway that's it for the time being. As soon as I get all the gear together I will start photographing the progress. I have programmed for construction to happen in October, with the first signs being produced in November. (Well we'll see!!)

My great name idea of Highlands Timber Signs was knocked back by the Dept. of Fair Trading here in NSW, but they have accepted one of my alternates ... Rural Timber Signs.

Cheers,

Alan

ps ... tried to insert JPG's, but could not get the size down ... hope you can open the pdf's.

[rodm]

Hi Alan,
I am probably behind you Alan as I only have a few scraps of paper with drawings and 20 brackets made. I will have to work my design on the fly which is how I usually do it. I have been busy with other things so have not had any time for machine building. I ordered pulleys and belts today so have all the bits ready to go just need to make time.

Just one suggestion with your design. Flip around the end angles on the table. This will make it easier to clamp end to end on the table. Fixing your work pieces to the table can be difficult so worth planning ahead.

The drawings are great and will provide some decent information to prospective builders. :2tsup:

[Greolt]

Looking good Alan.

See if you can get the reduction drives pivot point down. The idea to hang the gantry sides down was for this purpose. Ideal is in line with the pinion shaft.

And give some thought to the pivot. The slightest slop here goes straight to backlash. It is a critical part of the R&P system.

Greg

[Zoot]

Thanks Rod & Greg for your helpful comments. I have already turned the end angles around on the table, but am struggling with what to do with the pivot.

Greg, you will see on the sketch below, that I was trying to use the gap beside the rail for the pivot connection. You will also note from the other drawings that I have substantially reduced the height of the gantry end plates ... I did this so that I could at least mill the various holes and bearing recesses using my widgitmaster ... my only milling capability at the moment. If I dropped the pivot to the same level as the rack, I would have to increase the height of the gantry ends to a size where they wouldn't fit in the wm. Thanks for the suggestion and I do know where you are coming from. I will just scratch my head a bit more and see if I can get on the same bus as you!

Many thanks,

Alan

[rodm]

Hi Zoot,
Try moving the rack a bit to the left and re-position the pivot under the C section. It will mean that the swing plate will almost be sideways to the position in your current elevation and the pivot moved forward (or back). You will also have to extend the bottom of the gantry side plate. Perhaps an end elevation might make it easier to see the adjustments.

[rodm]

Hi Alan,
OK after reading it again I realise wm stands for widgetmaster so I have lead you down the proverbial path. Can you index the gantry plate and cut it in two positions? I would imagine that the reference between the gantry top and pivot area is not sub mm accuracy so a move might work out OK as long as both sides are the same. I make use of MDF jigs when building and maybe you could work our something for this?

[Zoot]

Greg & Rod ... have had my thinking cap on and come up with this idea.

I hope you can read the sketch ... it is a bit like an xray with things overlaid, but the concept seems to work unless there is a problem with having the pivot close to the front of the gantry ends and not in the middle where I had it before. I only had it in the middle before, because it looked good ... no mechanical advantage as I saw it! Anyway, I think this one looks good as well with the angled dooverlackey hanging down to take the pivot. I could trim a bit more from the bottom left corner to make it easily fit the Widgitmaster.

I was going to ask you as well if there is any easy way to tap the bolt holes in both the steel and aluminium ... not having a fancy end milling machine ... or is it just a hand twisting job!

Thanks again for your helpful comments,

Cheers,

Alan

[Greolt]

Hand twisting. Couple of hundred holes........builds character. :U

Smaller tapping can be done with a battery drill. Takes a bit of finesse.

Or one of these ..........

http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Products?stockCode=T002A

Not everything that needs tapping can be manoeuvred under a machine of course.

Greg

EDIT: Now your getting the idea with the pivot point.

[rodm]

Hi Alan,
Good lateral thinking on turning the gantry end plate so it fits the wm - that's WidgitMaster :).
I use a cordless for tapping threads. Use lubricant (Tap Magic is good but anything is better than none) , Low speed, clutch backed off so you don't break taps, lots of forward reverse movements and make sure tap is square to hole. Only use HSS taps as carbide are brittle and have a tendancy to break. In any case 4mm taps and below are risky as they snap easy but if this happens drive the broken tap through with a drift - one of the advantages of working in aluminum..
If you are not confident a trick is to have a block of wood (steel or allly is better) with a hole drilled through it in the drill press. Use it like a dovetail guide to keep the tap vertical to start the hole. The safest way is to put on some good music, brain in neutral and hand tap.

[Tankstand]

Watching all of this with great interest guys,

Just a quick question,

Rack and pinion on a CNC? How can any backlash be eliminated without clunky meshing? I've not seen it myself but am still learning.

Will the stepper motor handle side loads OK? (I know it is a reduced 1:4 effort)

Just interested, no intent to hijack or pick on designs.

[rodm]

Hi Tankstand

The geometry of the gear mesh is designed for zero backlash. The forward tooth engages while the back tooth is still meshed.
In the design the steppers only have the load of the belt tensioning to the next pulley. The load is between the rack and pinion.

[appiwood]

Hello Boys

When you next need to buy a tap, get a gun tap, these are designed for machine use, same deal, drill a hole, then tap.

For 4-8mm in Ally or steel, I use a Makita cordless drill set on high speed, bigger than that I use a mill, only because it has forward and reverse.

They are in " standard " lengths as well a long series, I have just bought a long series 6mm, it was about $70.00.

The main difference seems to be the swarf is driven in front of the cutting tip.

None have ever broken but in blind holes you need to allow for the swarf at the bottom of the hole.

Ed

[Tankstand]

None have ever broken but in blind holes you need to allow for the swarf at the bottom of the hole.
Ed

For blind holes These are the go (http://www.sutton.com.au/uploads/downloads/Industrial_Products/Taps/Metric_Fine/IPD05MFSpiralFlute_tap.pdf)

The swarf comes out backwards in one long length.:2tsup:

[appiwood]

Hello Tankstand

Thanks!!!

Ed

[Zoot]

I know that it has nothing to do with my new 'Alpha Zoot', but thought others may be interested in a recent order I completed at the weekend ... 66 tree signs. Made using Laminex 'Aquapanel' 2.7mm thick so is much more servicable than Trafalite for this application. And as Aquapanel is really a bathroom wall sheeting, it should stand up to outside weather conditions well.
I supplied them screwed to a treated timber peg which I dipped into fencing paint to unify the appearance and just for fun I also dipped the point of the peg into some red paint I had lying around, which just added a finishing touch. The clients were very happy and are proposing to tell all their friends ... could be more of the same in the future!!

Cheers,

Alan

[rodm]

Good to see the Widgetmaster put to use. Nice work on the name tags.
I used to do a lot of these many years ago on a Gravograph engraver. It was like a pantograph and had a little spindle and letter set. I used to do it on black anodised aluminum plates and thirty years on they are still there. A lot of the coloured ally these days is powder coated and I wonder if it is as long lasting.
You need to get that machine started and produce some big signs. :D I am sure there would be a lot of opportunity to make farm signs but you are going to have to have lots of different materials and designs to make them unique. I have been toying with an idea of a self design service. This could be done from a Web page and given most people have computer skills I think it might take on. You give them a choice of mountings (even jewelery boxes with fancy joints :D) and graphics and text and they match the whole thing up.
There you go Alan in your spare time create a Web page. :rolleyes:

[Zoot]

Thanks Rod,
I wonder sometimes where my spare time goes! They call it 'retirement', but about the only advantage that I see is that I can get up and surf the internet in my pj's and don't feel at all guilty!
I am planning a web page, but as my skills there are somewhat basic, the web page will in all probability also be basic.

Cheers,

Alan

[rodm]

Worst thing about retirement is you never get a day off. I have never tackled web design as my time is taken up by other things. I like the sound of simple as anything else gives me a headache. :)

[Zoot]

Am currently sweating on my rails and ball screws ... they have left China and arrived in Sydney yesterday. So hopefully they should be here tomorrow or the next day!
Then I have got to work out my excuses as to why I am not building the thing!

Cheers,

Alan

[Frankmc]

Hi Guys

I have done some basic web design for my electronic stuff...I used Serif which isnt too expensive and has quite a few templates.....
Heres my sites
http://www.armaghelectrical.com.au/
http://www.hobby.armaghelectrical.com.au/

and heres a link to serif

http://www.serif.com/webplus/webplus10/?MC=SERPPCROWWP

HTH
Frank

[Zoot]

Thanks for your suggestions Frank, but I do have a web building program called Freeway. It is a Mac program which suites me being a Mac user since 1984!!
I have my own website ... users.cyberone.com.au/ahunt ... and I have recently done a web site for a Rescue Squad that I am a member of ... bdvrs.acenet.com.au

The website for rural Timber Signs is on the bottom of my current priorority list ... got to get the new machine made and running first.

Cheers,

Alan

[Zoot]

Hi Guys,

My 120 x 80 alum gantry rail arrived today from Linear Bearings in Victoria ... boy, is that some piece of metal!! I haven't weighed it yet, but the weight supprised me ... steel = heavy / aluminium = light ... or so I thought!!

Construction is getting closer.

Cheers,
Alan

[crocky]

I am watching :)

[rodm]

Hi Alan,
Did your rails and ballscrews arrive yet?
It's October and you promised us you were going to start in October. :D
I shouldn't poke fun as my build has gone backwards. I was ready to assemble the base and did not have a bench big enough to build it on. This week I have been making a stand so I can start again. So that is my excuse. :rolleyes:

[Zoot]

Sorry, I forgot to mention that the rails and ballscrews arrived from Guixuan Chai a couple of days ago. They are great. I laid them out in my workshop and took some photos to post, but can't find the cable for that camera. I will retake them with my normal camera and post them then. I had to rearrange the workshop to fit it all in and at the moment it is a bit of a jumble and might need to be rethought (the workshop layout not the machine!).

I am still having trouble trying to source the 10mm alum plate I need. No one here in the Highlands has got a clue where I can get it, so it probably means a trip to the big smoke. I have been looking at the options for cutting the shapes I need ... I have a compound mitre saw and was proposing to fit a negative rake alum blade, but was wondering if I could use my Carbatec bandsaw as well ... would I need a special blade? I have read yours and Greg's stories about using a table saw, but I think I am too much of a woos to go that way!!!

Cheers,

Alan

[rodm]

Hi Alan,
IMHO bandsaw is safer that all other methods but if the sheet overhangs the table you will want to add support. I would just use a hardwood blade but I am slack. :D
Clean your bandsaw tyres down afterwards as the swarf get's imbedded in the rubber.
Alternative is to talk to somebody with a CNC machine. One of the big advantages is perfect bolt hole patterns and you can put a bit of shape into your design.

[Zoot]

Greetings all,
Have been looking at cable management and have produced the attached PDF. Any suggestions?
I am planning on buying some E-Chain for the job, but the only supplier I have come up with so far is a company called Treotham Automation at Brookvale, Sydney who supply the IGUS e-chain. I am not looking at a supersized chain, just something to finish the machine off and make it look as professional as I can ... probably something in the order of 35 wide x 25 high. But as I have my Y axis carrier wrapped completely around my gantry rail, I could not fix a channel to the rail itself, so have opted for a separate channel running from side to side and supported by the gantry ends.

Cheers,

Alan

[rodm]

Hi Alan,

Greolt has the name of a Melbourne supplier and I think it is not all that expensive.

I have got echain from these ebay suppliers and can recommend them as reliable.
Here are a couple of listings and they are multiple buys so get two and click them together if you want longer lengths. They are different sizes in each listing.
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Flexible-cable-carrier-IGUS-R28-09-New_W0QQitemZ130259857038QQihZ003QQcategoryZ67000QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262 (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Flexible-cable-carrier-IGUS-R28-09-New_W0QQitemZ130259857038QQihZ003QQcategoryZ67000QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262)


http://cgi.ebay.com/CNC-cable-Wire-track-carrier-guide-for-stepper-motors_W0QQitemZ260294595711QQihZ016QQcategoryZ4667QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262 (http://cgi.ebay.com/CNC-cable-Wire-track-carrier-guide-for-stepper-motors_W0QQitemZ260294595711QQihZ016QQcategoryZ4667QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262)
http://cgi.ebay.com/CNC-IGUS-WIRE-TRACK-CABLE-CARRIER-BARGAIN-STEPPER-MOTO_W0QQitemZ330256864829QQihZ014QQcategoryZ4667QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262 (http://cgi.ebay.com/CNC-IGUS-WIRE-TRACK-CABLE-CARRIER-BARGAIN-STEPPER-MOTO_W0QQitemZ330256864829QQihZ014QQcategoryZ4667QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262)

These sellers have some interesting CNC gear listed so if you want to waste some time have a look at their full listings. Hubbard CNC is good for pulleys and belts but they are imperial sizes.

[Greolt]

Here is a link to a PDF that I have found hard to find again,

http://web.aanet.com.au/greolt/cable%20chain.pdf

I see a lot of machine pictures where builders make the mistake of getting too small a radius.

The advantage of getting it from this supplier is to specify what size and radius you really need rather than what you can score off ebay.

I also found the prices compared favourably with ebay too. Though sometimes bargains can be had on ebay. Just not for me. :)

Greg

[rodm]

Greg,
Are to referring to the radius of the chain so that if it is too small then you end up with an "S" bend in the unsupported piece?

[Greolt]

Rod

This pic illustrates the radius that I was referring to.

They come in a range of radius sizes with the idea of using the radius that is most appropriate to your design.

Cables are available that are designed for continuous flexing in automation but they are hideously expensive. I don't think any of us hobby builders would be using them.

With that in mind it might be a good idea to go for a slightly larger radius than the tightest one available. Larger radius does not work the cable as hard.

Greg

.

[rodm]

Thanks Greg
We are on the same page. I have seen a cable carrier used that was meant for data cable and I thought at the time it was probably going to cause more trouble than not having it in the first place.

[Zoot]

I picked up all of my metal yesterday, almost got a hernia lifting the main side channels. This is going to be some weighty table!
I have shaped the ends of the channels to my design and today they go off to the milling man to true up the top surface. A mate is going to weld base plates and fish plates to my legs on Saturday ... I can't weld for nuts ... have tried mig and stick and even oxy, but the results are horrible. Best to get a competent mate to do it! Then early next week another mate will sand blast everything for me before I start assembly.
Talking about weight ... I can't see that I will ever be able to move this machine when it is finished, so I think I am going to have to build it and paint it in position. If we ever experience a cyclone or tornado, I am going to camp under the table!
Nothing photo worthy yet ... just bundles of bits and pieces.

Cheers,

Alan

[Greolt]

This is going to be some weighty table!....................
...................... If we ever experience a cyclone or tornado, I am going to camp under the table!



This tells me you have the potential for a great machine. :)

Think about the possibility of machining both top and bottom of the channels to bring them true to each other.

When the table supports bolt to the bottom of the both channels to form one solid structure, you want the top surfaces to be true.

Also it may keep things straighter, as skimming both sides equally will help with any stress relieving issues.

Greg

[Zoot]

Good suggestion Greg.
I am off to the machinist now so will get him to do both surfaces.
Cheers,
Alan

PS ... Machinist happy to do both top and bottom ... ready Tuesday.

[Zoot]

Thanks again Greg for the suggestion about getting both top and bottom of the side channels milled. The machinist said that there was quite a bit of stress relieving movement and in some spots had to mill off 1.5mm.

Things are slowing slightly, my Mother in Law is coming to stay for a few weeks, so I am off CNC and on to painting the spare bedroom!!

Cheers,

Alan

[Zoot]

Have slowed a bit ... my mate who is welding the base plates to the legs has just changed jobs and hasn't got around to it. In the meantime, I am painting all of my metal pieces and will start drilling holes etc in the next couple of days. Am still waiting for my bolts and screws to arrive as well.

Also a slight problem with a ballnut ... see other thread!!

Cheers,

Alan

[Zoot]

After spending weeks cleaning out the shed to fit the new machine in, I am getting close to bolting things together.

My real victory for today was however, to refit the balls into my ballnut which you will remember I unscrewed from the ballscrew to machine one end a bit more! DON'T DO IT! THE BALLNUT IS NOT MEANT TO COME OFF THE BALLSCREW!! Anyway, using Greolts method with a dab of grease I was able to refit all of the balls and after lots of trial and error it only took about an hour and no balls left over ,,, hooray!

The ballnut has a grease nipple ... dumb question ... is that for grease of some other less sticky lubricant?

Cheers,

Alan

[Greolt]

After spending weeks cleaning out the shed to fit the new machine in,.............................



Any chance of coming to my place and cleaning my shed? :D:D

Greg

[rodm]

Mine too - It needs lots of cleaning and once that is done there is the overflow under the patio and in the garage. Once I used to be able to walk in the shed now i just stand at the door and shake my head. :rolleyes:

Yes the nipple (duck for cover) is for grease but I never lubricate my rails or ballscrews with skicky or oily stuff. Wood dust sticks to it and eventually enters the bearings. Sometimes I hit them with a spray on dry lube.

[Zoot]

Well, not much action with Alpha Zoot of late ... too many other distractions unfortunately. Have been making lots of tree signs on the Widgitmaster which will help to defray the costs of Alpha Zoot!

Post Christmas I have cleaned up enough of the workshop to start construction. Have constructed the legs for one side of the table and am working on the other side, hopefully today! When it starts to look like a table I will post some pictures.

Have learnt lesson "101 Hole Tapping" ... don't be too agressive when tapping ... broke a spiral tap in a hole and they are a cow to get out! Only that the bolt will be highly visible did I perservere with the removal ... next time I might be tempted to epoxy a bolt head on the outside and leave the broken tap for someone else to find when I am gone to CNC Heaven.

Cheers,

Alan

[rodm]

Hi Alan,
Good to see you are making some progress.
If I have trouble getting a tap out I get a drift and a big hammer and drive it thought either side depending on how deep it is in but usually from the back so the taper works for you. Sometimes you can re-thread or go to nut and bolt or larger size bolt and tap again. If it is a tungsten tap they break up easy but if HSS you have to grit your teeth and go for it - brutal but it works.
If you are lucky there is enough of the tap left that you can use a pair of vice grips to unwind it.

[wheelinround]

Zoot just quickly went through this thread great work have saved all the pdf's etc and booked marked to come back and have a real read.

Having seen the Ornamental CNC on Utube in action its the way to go

Ray

[Ch4iS]

I broke 3 taps myself, 2 of them due to not enough lubricant (1st I didnt know, 2nd I was too lazy and thought there was enough), 3rd one just grabbed onto the steel and snapped.

I was agressive, I got fed up with the million holes that I broke out the drill.

What I learnt from my dad was that you get a center punch and shatter the tap, same goes for drill bits, you will either force the tap out or shatter the hell out of it, I shattered a HSS drill bit that broke half way through my rack but the taps just fell out, just retapped them and they were fine. Not sure if you would want to do this on something fragile thou, I was working with 4mm RHS which can support a car probbaly so hammering like mad wasnt going to do much if any damage.

Then again if you are not using lubricant start using it, I get this stuff from the Fastening store in a black can, kinda like WD40 but better.


BTW rod you need a bigger shed/garage.

[rodm]

Trefolex (spelling ??) or tap magic are both good products but anything is better than nothing.
The most common cause of broken taps is not tapping square to the hole. Anything that is not vertical to the hole will bind and snap the tap. If I have a lot of holes to tap I use a cordless drill but always run the taper tap in first as it helps to keep it sqaure to the hole. Set your clutch on the cordless to low torque and run it forwards and backwards as needed so you don't snap the tap. It helps if you have somebody to line the drill vertical as it is hard to do from behind the trigger.

[Zoot]

Some modest progress ... have almost finished the table. Some pics so that you can see I have been doing something!!

I am amazed at how stable it is now, even before I add the diagonal bracing.

Cheers,

Alan

[rodm]

Hi Alan,
I expected good workmanship from you and have not been disappointed. I say I expected it because I have seen the fine detial in your box making.
This has the makings of a great machine and keen to see it progress.

Only thing is you might want to get rid of the brace off the front leg - it's ugly and it isn't doing much. :D

[Zoot]

Well spotted ... the "brace" has now been bolted in for the side of the control box.

Hopefully today, if I can find time, I will fix the X axis rails and make a start on the gantry ... then it will begin to look like a proper machine and not just a table!!

Cheers,

Alan

[Zoot]

Can my electrickery friends please help!

Table is slow unfortunately ... swmbo has me doing some fencing on the farm, so Alpha Zoot has been relegated down the list.

I am planning my control panel and am in 2 minds ... go for the retro look and just use toggle switches - no lights, bells or whistles! OR use these small round illuminated switches. They look good, but worry me when they say they need 2v @ 20ma for the led and there is only one terminal for it ... how does this work?

SPST Round Red Illuminated Actuator Rocker Switch

- Snap fits into a 20mm round hole
- 6 amps @ 250VAC
- LED requires 2V @ 20mA
- Q.C. tab termination
- Solder tabs for LED

Have also attached a first run layout for the panel ... any suggestions? No spindle at this stage, but am planning for one!

Chhers,

Alan

[snowyskiesau]

You could go really cutting edge and use some of these. (http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8493)

Of course on top of working out how to connect them, you have to write software to drive them. Still, it would look pretty cool:2tsup:

[Are you sure that the round switches you show only have one connection for the LED? The ones I've seen have two solder tabs for the light/LED]
(http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8493)

[Zoot]

They certainly look good, but at US$36.00 compared to AUD$2.65 from Jaycar x 8 ... I think that the simple look is going to fit my modestly priced machine!

As far as the Jaycar switch is concerned, I have one in my hand and the back has only 3 terminals ... top 2 are definitely the 240v switch ... checked it with my multimeter ... with one gold coloured terminal at the bottom. Somehow it has to be linked with one of the other terminal to know when to light up.

Thanks for your suggestion.

Cheers,

Alan

[Zoot]

Between building swmbo's very large vegetable garden and 35° temperatures outside, I haven't been spending much time in the shed.

But I was a bit concerned that my legs (the table legs that is) were a bit off vertical ... 2mm max ... so before I fixed my cross braces I borrowed one of our hydraulic jacking kits from the Rescue Squad that I am a volunteer with, and it worked a treat. I suppose if the Rescue Squad jack can open up a mangled car, my task was just a walk in the park! ... everything now horizontal / square / vertical. I bought all my sheeting for the table top today with lots of 'screw in insert nuts' so I can use Rod's method of adjusting the top using grub screws.

Photo's to come when the top is on! Only trouble is that by putting a top on the table, it will probably end up like all other horizontal surfaces in my workshop ... chockaas!:~

Cheers for now,

Alan

[Frankmc]

Hi Alan

I would imagine one leg off the switch is connected to the led and the gold leg is the other leg of the led.....Are you going to switch 240v with the switch ...????

HTH
Frank

[Zoot]

Hi Frank,

Most of the switches will be 240v, but again I am wondering if I need to use relays or just go gungho and switch direct.

The led asked for 2v and am not sure where I would get that from. My control power supply is 24v ... do you know any smart way of just plopping a resistor in the line to reduce it down to 2v?

Cheers,

Alan

[Frankmc]

Hi Alan

>Most of the switches will be 240v, but again I am wondering if I need to use relays or just >go gungho and switch direct.

What do the other guys do ??

>The led asked for 2v and am not sure where I would get that from. My control power >supply is 24v ... do you know any smart way of just plopping a resistor in the line to >reduce it down to 2v?

You would add a resistor to the gold leg of the switch anything from 1k5 up to 2k7,,,but only if the switch is switching 24v dc,...if switching 240v a much much higher resistor required plus a diode,,,,,,,,
HTH
Frank

[Zoot]

Despite the extreme heat, I ventured forth into the shed and have now completed and painted the table top.

As per my original drawings, I have used one sheet of 18mm mdf with the 't-tracks' formed using 2 layers of 12mm mdf ... all glued together and fixed down with machine screws (another 28 tapped holes!) and have a grub screw beside each bolt for any table adjustments needed later on. I have brought the grub screws almost to the top of the table so they wont get full of dirt/dust.

Onto the gantry next week, but only if it is cooler!

Cheers for now,

Alan

[rodm]

You would have to be pleased with what you have done. It gets easier to go out to the shed from now on as you will have a few moving parts soon.

[John H]

Your a braver man than me Alan. I went into my workshop this morning, turned around and went straight back into the house. Way to hot.

What is the finish on the MDF table?

[Zoot]

John,
Nothing fancy, just some old (and I do mean old!) estapol I had lying around ... thinned and strained for spraying ... then a couple of coats. I did not sand betwen coats because I was really only looking to seal the mdf so that it would not sprout vegetables in the future. I was happy that it was going to be a rough finish so that jobs would not slide around too much, but I must admit I was happy with the finish anyway.

I have had a HVLP spray gun for some time, but never felt I had suitable control over the air volume, so bought a simple control valve that I fitted just before the gun and it gives me the air control that I need. I am so happy with how it worked that I am loooking for things to spray ... don't stand still or you will be sprayed!!!

Cheers,

Alan

[Ch4iS]

Wow very nice.

It is very clean and professional looking. I only wish mine were as good :D

[seafurymike]

Fantastic work on the table. It looks like you have spent a considerable amount of time getting the frame right and what a great job on the t-slides. Would like to know how they hold up over time

[Zoot]

I think it should last OK ... sealed top and bottom ... and I will always be using a sacrificial board when I am cutting through a job (unless the Z gets away on me!!). I am going to make a number of dooverlackies out of scrap 10mm alum to go in the t slots and will thread these for 6mm bolts.

If all goes pear shaped I can replace it!:(

Cheers,

Alan

[twistedfuse]

Gee wish i had the time to get my machine up to the same point as yours. Either way it wont look anywere near as good as yours. Keep up the good work.

Daniel

[Zoot]

Well after all the hot weather it is great to escape into the shed to be out of the rain!

I have made some progress ... the gantry sides are finished, the running plates are fitted as are the trucks for the Y axis ... photo below. I was a bit worried about the strength of my running plates (not sure what the correct term is, but they are the brackets fixed to the gantry sides that the trucks get fixed to!) and with the weight of the gantry all being held by a few screws through the gantry side and into the 'endgrain' of the running plates, so I fitted a 20mm dia leg under the gantry cross member and onto the running plate right over the rail. If my memory of structural engineering classes 40+ years ago serves me correctly, the force is now directed straight down rather than producing a bending moment!

One of the photos shows a bearing end block that I machined on my Wigitmaster ... I was very excited when it fitted and fitted like a glove. Fixings for the ballscrews are still all a bit of a mystery to me, but I am bumbling along hoping that all will be well on the day!

Once I got the gantry all mounted and adjusted on its linear ball thingamies I was really excited as to how easy the whole thing moves ... spent some time pushing it and seeing how far it would go ... think I will have to fit my buffer blocks at the end sooner rather than later so in my enthuiasm I dont send the gantry into orbit.

Cheers for now (another rainy day!!)

Alan