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Grumpy John
3rd Sep 2008, 09:30 PM
Hi Forumites
I was wondering what are the pros and cons of the Ellsworth grind over the standard/convential shape on bowl gouges? Also is the Ellsworth grind more suited to gouges 12mm and under or is it just as well suited to gouges 16mm and over? How hard is it to reshape a conventially ground gouge to the Ellsworth form, and what is the correct procedure. Also I would like to know how long is a piece of string :p.

Cliff Rogers
3rd Sep 2008, 10:19 PM
Which piece of string? :think:

Cliff Rogers
3rd Sep 2008, 10:28 PM
A jig is the easy way to make that swept back grind.
I was using it for years before I ever heard of the term 'Elsworth Grind.'

I never thought of it actually suiting a particular tool although it seems to work best on one with an elliptical flute.
I think of it more as suiting a particular turner than the tool.

& I both love our Henry Taylor HS1 SuperFlute.
They are ground completely differently 'cos he likes his how his is, (even if it is totally wrong :D) & I like mine that way mine is.

You have to try it for a while & see what you like.

There are several jigs available & there are several threads on here on how some members have made their own jig.

I'll find some links.

Cliff Rogers
3rd Sep 2008, 10:36 PM
Here is an old thread about sharpening turning tools & it has links to other threads & jigs. (There are more, I just have to find them)

http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=42001

Cliff Rogers
3rd Sep 2008, 10:51 PM
Stu in Tokyo has posted a couple of threads with home made jigs.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=36178

http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=54676

Cliff Rogers
3rd Sep 2008, 10:55 PM
Also worth a look.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=48834

Cliff Rogers
3rd Sep 2008, 11:11 PM
More links to threads about grinding turning tols.

All worth a look.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=10062
http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=36030
http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=47046
http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=51792

Cliff Rogers
3rd Sep 2008, 11:15 PM
Also dig through this thread, ignore the crap. :D

This is my main sharpening set up that is evolving over the years.

About post 39 is where I modified it so I could use my Unijig on both wheels.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=37459

Cliff Rogers
3rd Sep 2008, 11:22 PM
Here it is.... :D
It took me a while to find it. :p

http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=53

The amazing thing is that I bought mine about one week after that was posted & I didn't join the forum 'til a couple of years later.

Sprog
4th Sep 2008, 03:10 PM
Also I would like to know how long is a piece of string :p.

From end to end! :D:D:D

The Bleeder
4th Sep 2008, 03:24 PM
I can only answer the bit about the string......

It's double the distance from the middle to one end....hope that helps..

Steve

RETIRED
4th Sep 2008, 04:00 PM
& I both love our Henry Taylor HS1 SuperFlute.
They are ground completely differently 'cos he likes his how his is, (even if it is totally wrong :D) & I like mine that way mine is.:p

tea lady
4th Sep 2008, 05:17 PM
& I both love our Henry Taylor HS1 SuperFlute.
They are ground completely differently 'cos he likes his how his is, (even if it is totally wrong :D) & I like mine that way mine is.



So .......any pics?:cool: What is differant? :? And how would they differ in use?

Grumpy John
4th Sep 2008, 05:39 PM
Cliff, thank you very much for all your hard work in tracking down all the sharpening threads :2tsup:, I read them all :sleep6:. Still have no clues as to the advantages of the Ellsworth grind over a conventionally ground bowl gouge, or the best way of reshaping a standard grind to an Ellsworth grind.

Don't worry about the string, I got it sorted.

wheelinround
4th Sep 2008, 05:59 PM
:2tsup: Many Many thanks Cliff I also went through them all a wealth of knowledge and designs

Bit like the hollow grind and flat grind argument for planes and chisels :doh:

jchappo
4th Sep 2008, 07:41 PM
Wood Magazine OnLine (http://www.woodmagazine.com/wood/file.jsp?item=video/player&temp=yes) have a very good video featuring Brian Symonds demonstrating in great detail how to do the initial grind and followup sharpening of a swept back bowl gouge.

You can find it under the Current Wood Magazine category, or scroll through to the Woodturning category.

His other videos are well worth watching too.

Grumpy John
4th Sep 2008, 08:10 PM
John
Thank you very much, that was exactly what I was looking for:2tsup::2tsup:.

joe greiner
4th Sep 2008, 08:16 PM
Thanks for all the links, Cliff and John. I've bookmarked this thread for future digestion.

How long is a piece of string? How Long is NOT a piece of string. How Long is a Chinese surveyor.

Joe

Cliff Rogers
4th Sep 2008, 10:19 PM
So .......any pics?:cool: What is differant? :? And how would they differ in use?

You had to be there. :wink:
's looks like a bird's beak, I don't have a photo.
Because his is ground at a different angle & shape, he presents it to the timber with the shaft & handle in a different position to what I do.

This is what mine looks like & a few pics of how I use it. (Taken from another thread)
For cleaning up the front of a platter, I use it at this angle with the bevel rubbing & cut away from me with the top front edge just the other side of the tip/point. :aro-d:

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=77780&d=1215950446

This gives a clean cut but leaves a rippled finish. :aro-d:

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=77781&d=1215950446

To clean up the ridges left by the cut, I roll the gouge over like this & use the bottom edge without rubbing the bevel & pull the tool back toward me making a very light shear scrape using the curved part of the sharp edge. :aro-d:

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=77782&d=1215950446

I stuffed up the focus on this shot but you can see the shavings on the tool rest. :aro-d:

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=77783&d=1215950446

Cliff Rogers
4th Sep 2008, 10:31 PM
In this pic I'm cleaning up the foot of a platter by removing the chuck spigot & chuck marks.
I'm using the curved sharp edge just below the tip & the cut starts without the bevel rubbing & progresses with just the slightest amount of the bevel in contact with the newly cut surface.
Once I get to the bottom of the cut, top of the foot where it meets the base of the platter, I swing the handle toward my so that the bevel comes away & I do a little shear scrape to clean up the base where the chuck left some dirty marks.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=78455&d=1216552986

The result of cutting away the dovetail & cleaning up the jaw marks. :aro-d:

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=78456&d=1216552986

The result after the shear scrape. :aro-d:

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=78457&d=1216552986

Cliff Rogers
4th Sep 2008, 10:38 PM
I don't have any pics of the tool in use for roughing the profile of the outside of a bowl or hollowing but the the outside cut would be very similar to the cut I made to clean up the foot although I would probley have the handle slightly lower & the flute a couple of degrees more upright to give a more aggressive cut.

The hollowing cut is similar to the cut used to clean up the face of the platter except that again, the handle would in a slightly different position to give a deeper cut.

Alastair
5th Sep 2008, 11:51 AM
Seeing this at work, so not able to view Cliff's pics, so extrapolating a bit.

I use a fairly mild Ellsworth grind, as I am more concerned with the advantages conferred by a swept back wing, than with the oft touted "hogging out" and shear scraping benefits.

I use in several different modes:

Much as a conventional bowl gouge on outsides. Handle slightly down, flute ~45 deg off vertical, bevel rubbing, cutting at the curve between rh wing and bottom of flute.

For quick roughing of outsides, as well as squaring off edges of platter blanks; Reversed flute, reversed cutting on the wing. In other words, handle well down, with flute rolled to left past 90 deg, so cutting on left wing, with bevel rubbing, but with the cut starting near the button of the flute, and slicing 'upwards" along the left wing. Slicing action gives cleaner crossgrain result, and open flute doesn't clog with shavings. Also shavings thrown away to left, and away from my face. Can give aggressive cutting for quick removal of waste.

For finishing cuts on outside; handle horizontal, flute vertical, RH wing bevel rubbing, so slicing cut down from top of right wing towards bottom of flute. Gives good finish on endgrain. As cut progresses, handle pivots in large arc, from way out over bed, to out to left following cut. Can take some co-ordination, but once mastered, yields clean flowing curves. Disadvantages are, as noted by Cliff, there is a tendency for the bevel to start following the cut, and can get rippling. Answer seems to be to be light on the bevel, and heavy on the toolrest, to reduce tendency to track the surface. Second disadvantage is that with head above tool to see and control in cut, shavings divert straight into your face.

Hollowing, particularly in deeper bowls; If you measure bevel angle, mine is ~ 30 deg out on wing, and ~45deg at bottom of flute. So enter cut, handle horizontal to slightly low, flute upright, similar slicing cut to above, on LH wing down to turn of flute. Sharper edge and slicing cut give good result across grain. As one reaches the difficult transition towards the bottom, where the bevel wants to lift, instead of pivoting the handle left, (difficult in deeper bowls), rotate tool clockwise, so flute goes nearly horizontal to the right. This transfers to steeper bevel angle at the bottom of flute, and keeps bevel rubbing, while being a smoother transition than swing handle on its own.

Finally, squaring off bottoms; Again slicing cut on LH wing, with flute upright, and handle nearly horizontal. Suspect similar to Cliff above, and similar tendency for rippling.

Very verbose, and probably baffling, but hope it helps. I might try and set up some posed pics, if anybody wishes.

regards

hughie
5th Sep 2008, 01:08 PM
Yup pics would be great.


As the chinese say a pic is worth a thousand verboses :U



ps hmm had the same problem with Cliffs pics...must be the weather

Toolin Around
5th Sep 2008, 07:19 PM
Here it is.... :D
It took me a while to find it. :p

http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=53

The amazing thing is that I bought mine about one week after that was posted & I didn't join the forum 'til a couple of years later.


Wow Cliff - not much going on that night. How many replies in a row was that LOL

rsser
5th Sep 2008, 10:10 PM
GJ, coming back to something implied in your original question:

There is the flute shape

There is the bevel angle or angles.

There is the amount of the rod that the flute occupies.

The interaction of these three variables can obviously produce quite a range of gouge cutting edges.

The parabolic curve of the flute on the Superflute gouge orig. developed by Peter Child is not of much use below a quarter inch gouge. That's why HT don't offer one.

You can grind swept back wings on a P&N Supagouge but since the flute occupies a good proportion of the rod you end up with fine wings that don't last long on hardwood.

The Ellsworth grind reference should be his Signature gouge.

This doesn't just have swept back wings but a short bevel at the gouge tip (55 degrees) which is nice for getting around corners inside bowls. The wings are quite thick which improves their usefulness over eg. the P&N.

Ellsworth's instructions on using the Signature gouge are reproduced in the pics attached.

HT produce one to his specs as does another English maker whose name I forget.

Course, language being what it is, there are multiple names for grinds which denote some notion of their origins rather than their applications.

Cliff Rogers
5th Sep 2008, 11:35 PM
Wow Cliff - not much going on that night. How many replies in a row was that LOL

Nup, it is a subject that I am interested in & I had remembered reading most of those posts before & have even linked to them a couple or more time in the past. :D

Cliff Rogers
5th Sep 2008, 11:38 PM
...Ellsworth's instructions on using the Signature gouge are reproduced in the pics attached.....

I find those drawings confusing Ern, I reckon the view from above the tip is backward to the view from the tip... unless of course, the view from the tip is actually the view from the handle. :think:

Grumpy John
6th Sep 2008, 07:31 AM
Thanks Ern,
You mention the parabolic curve flute of the Superflute gouge, does this mean that a bowl gouge with a more "U" shaped flute is not suited to the Ellsworth grind?

Cheers
GJ

rsser
6th Sep 2008, 07:51 AM
Cliff - do you mean the exterior cuts, the interior or both?

The exterior diags suggest you'd be cutting downhill except for shearing.

GJ, only if you don't like doing a lot of sharpening where the swept back grind leaves a fine wing. If the U shaped flute width was narrow in the rod things would be better. In the Supagouge it's wide. In smaller P&N bowl gouges (least in the oldies in my shed) it's narrower.

rsser
6th Sep 2008, 08:15 AM
Here's some pics of the Ellsworth sig. gouge - be patient:

http://www.onlinetoolreviews.com/reviews/crownellsworthbowlgouge.htm

Ellsworth doesn't have dibs on the grind type name; most folk seem to think that honour belongs to an Irishman, Liam someone; hence 'irish grind' as well.

Alastair
8th Sep 2008, 10:45 AM
Seeing this at work, so not able to view Cliff's pics, so extrapolating a bit.

I use a fairly mild Ellsworth grind, as I am more concerned with the advantages conferred by a swept back wing, than with the oft touted "hogging out" and shear scraping benefits.

I use in several different modes:

Much as a conventional bowl gouge on outsides. Handle slightly down, flute ~45 deg off vertical, bevel rubbing, cutting at the curve between rh wing and bottom of flute.

For quick roughing of outsides, as well as squaring off edges of platter blanks; Reversed flute, reversed cutting on the wing. In other words, handle well down, with flute rolled to left past 90 deg, so cutting on left wing, with bevel rubbing, but with the cut starting near the button of the flute, and slicing 'upwards" along the left wing. Slicing action gives cleaner crossgrain result, and open flute doesn't clog with shavings. Also shavings thrown away to left, and away from my face. Can give aggressive cutting for quick removal of waste.

For finishing cuts on outside; handle horizontal, flute vertical, RH wing bevel rubbing, so slicing cut down from top of right wing towards bottom of flute. Gives good finish on endgrain. As cut progresses, handle pivots in large arc, from way out over bed, to out to left following cut. Can take some co-ordination, but once mastered, yields clean flowing curves. Disadvantages are, as noted by Cliff, there is a tendency for the bevel to start following the cut, and can get rippling. Answer seems to be to be light on the bevel, and heavy on the toolrest, to reduce tendency to track the surface. Second disadvantage is that with head above tool to see and control in cut, shavings divert straight into your face.

Hollowing, particularly in deeper bowls; If you measure bevel angle, mine is ~ 30 deg out on wing, and ~45deg at bottom of flute. So enter cut, handle horizontal to slightly low, flute upright, similar slicing cut to above, on LH wing down to turn of flute. Sharper edge and slicing cut give good result across grain. As one reaches the difficult transition towards the bottom, where the bevel wants to lift, instead of pivoting the handle left, (difficult in deeper bowls), rotate tool clockwise, so flute goes nearly horizontal to the right. This transfers to steeper bevel angle at the bottom of flute, and keeps bevel rubbing, while being a smoother transition than swing handle on its own.

Finally, squaring off bottoms; Again slicing cut on LH wing, with flute upright, and handle nearly horizontal. Suspect similar to Cliff above, and similar tendency for rippling.

Very verbose, and probably baffling, but hope it helps. I might try and set up some posed pics, if anybody wishes.

regards

Some staged pics, (holding camera 1 handed) to illustrate in same order as above. Hope not too confusing.

Cliff Rogers
8th Sep 2008, 11:41 AM
Cliff - do you mean the exterior cuts, the interior or both?.

Both. :?


Good shots Alistar.

I tried to get some yesterday arvo but I was doing it one handed with the lathe running watching the little screen on the camera & they came out blurry & most of the time you can't see the tool for shavings. :doh:
I need to do it again with the lathe stopped.

rsser
8th Sep 2008, 11:55 AM
Yes, thanks for the photos Alastair. Nice job.

Cliff, yes it's a bit confusing on paper but clear enough hands-on.

tea lady
8th Sep 2008, 01:48 PM
Alistair, you don't seem to have very swept back "wings".:? Is this really the Elsworth grind??

rsser
8th Sep 2008, 02:51 PM
The names are really a bit of a distraction.

There are degrees to which the sides are ground back and folk should be encouraged to experiment.

Ditto with the length of the bevel at the front. Play around with a short one - it has pros and cons depending on the application.

Also try a convex polished bevel - now gaining some popularity in the States. (See the grinds page on Woodcentral for a pic.)

Cliff Rogers
8th Sep 2008, 04:34 PM
I have 4 bowl gouges with the same SuperFlute shaft.
I have put slightly different grinds on all of them & I play around til I find one that works the best for the job at hand.

If you can't afford the luxury of several gouges & lots of regrinding, try this.
Find/beg/borrow/steal a piece of round bar 10mm to 16mm (3/8" to 5/8"), grind a flat on the top of it. (see pic below)
Mount this in your jig (or freehand it if you must) & pretend the flat is your flute.
Now do a test grind & look at the bevel angle at the tip & on the sides.
I realize that the cutting edge won't be the right place but it will give you an idea of the jig settings required to produce the shape/profile.
You could even mess around & grind the flat so that it is roughly the shape of the cutting edge.
Now take the bar & & try it against a roughed out bowl mounted on the lathe BUT not going.
Try presenting the bevel to the surface with the tool rest in place & follow the profile of the roughed out bowl.
This will give you an idea of how the tool will work when it is sharpened that way.
Does it feel comfortable or awkward?
Play with it.

I ground away several inches of a round bar from an old computer printer learning what the various settings of the jig produced & I now know how the put a gouge in the jig & work out the settings to reproduce the same grind.

NeilS
13th Sep 2008, 01:29 PM
Some staged pics, (holding camera 1 handed) to illustrate in same order as above. Hope not too confusing.

Thanks for the pics Alastair... that makes it clearer to me how you use your 'super flute'. It's one of my most used gouges, but having studied the Ellsworth instructions many times (the two pages posted earlier in this thread by Cliff) and yet unsure exactly what he (Ellsworth) is getting at, I have found a method that more or less works for me which is a little different to yours and perhaps a little closer to Cliff's from what I can see from the pics.

My grind is similar to the last image posted by Cliff.... quite swept back. On the inside of bowls I begin my cuts with the Ellsworth in the same orientation as you complete your inside cuts and finish them in the same orientation you start your cuts. As I say, it works for me as I am sure your method works for you. Perhaps the difference in approach has something to do with the difference in grind geometry. As Ern and Cliff suggest, we each have to play around with grinds and turning methods until we find ones that work best for us.... at least for now :).

Our methods are similar on the outside of bowls, although I do most of the cuts (other than finishing cuts and details which I do with the Ellsworth) on the outside of bowls with the large P&N roughing gouge that has a similar grind to your super flute. You can take a lot of wood off quickly with a 1 1/4" gouge...:o... and its large radius is ideal for creating elegant convex shapes. PS - I have seen warning on some websites that sell this P&N gouge that it is "not to be used on bowls". Not sure why, but I pass on the warning anyway.

As for polished convex 'grinds', I find them worth the trouble on very small gouges (I do a few like that for fine finishing details) but not worth the extra time for me on anything over 1/4". Quick secondary and tertiary bevels grinds (see postings/videos from Stu in Tokyo) are an intermediate step that I find useful for some applications.

Neil

rsser
13th Sep 2008, 01:49 PM
Thanks Neil.

This guy uses a forged spindle gouge for roughing but esp for finishing in and outside. He reckons the edge is cutting at close to 90 degrees to the grain on a conventionally grained bowl and that produces a finish that doesn't need scraping:

http://s108.photobucket.com/albums/n28/MichaelMouse/

It's obvious that care and a steady hand are needed.

Frank&Earnest
13th Sep 2008, 02:01 PM
Sorry for butting in guys but the "grind a bar" suggestion above reminded me of something discussed about a year ago, the "skew gouge". I have tried searching for it but it is useless because entering it as one word returns no hits and as two words returns millions. Does anybody remember? Thanks.

rsser
13th Sep 2008, 02:15 PM
Not sure if this is what you mean F&E:

Ron Sardo wrote:

I made two flute-less gouges, one 1/4" and the other 3/8". I grind a flat area leaving about 65% of the metal, then I grind a "Ellsworth" with long wings.

While they do not hog out tons of wood, they work great and I use them often.

Which I assume is extending Cliff's thinking about trying out bevel angles and actually using the tool.

Added: Doug Thompson of turning tool fame says of this tool it's a killer tool and will leave a beautiful finish without tearout

rsser
13th Sep 2008, 02:57 PM
Or do you mean a round skew?

Is just a rod with a single facet face ground at an acute angle to the rod.

Frank&Earnest
13th Sep 2008, 04:28 PM
More like the Ron Sardo thing, but it was an actual name given to a tool produced commercially, IIRC. Can't find it for the life of me.

rsser
13th Sep 2008, 07:01 PM
This it?

http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Crown-Crown-Beecham-Skewchigouge-23463.htm

Frank&Earnest
14th Sep 2008, 12:34 AM
Bingo! Thanks Ern. Forgetting the "chi" in the middle made it hard to find. Maybe I should take up tai chi in my old age...:D All in all, it seems not to have been that successful, not much talking about it.

GERRY666
14th Sep 2008, 12:56 AM
Great photos alistair...

rsser
14th Sep 2008, 06:21 AM
Bingo! Thanks Ern. Forgetting the "chi" in the middle made it hard to find. Maybe I should take up tai chi in my old age...:D All in all, it seems not to have been that successful, not much talking about it.

No worries; if you Google on it you'll find plenty of places still selling it, and on one site a bad video of some bad turning with it by Scott Phillips.

Cliff Rogers
15th Sep 2008, 11:27 PM
For those of you interested in seeing this gouge shape in use, see if you can get your hands on a copy of the Tormek DVD.
As well as the sharpening section, it has a Turning Tips section by Jeff Farris & he shows you how he uses the "Side Grind Bowl Gouge" :2tsup:

Cliff Rogers
15th Sep 2008, 11:36 PM
BTW, I got my copy at the Timber & Working With Wood show in Brissy...

I can't remember who gave it to me but I didn't pay for it. :?

(I don't remember being absent minded. :rolleyes:)

rsser
16th Sep 2008, 01:39 PM
Is it copyrighted Cliff?

If not, I'm happy to put an ISO of it on my 'website'.

NeilS
16th Sep 2008, 01:46 PM
This guy uses a forged spindle gouge for roughing but esp for finishing in and outside. He reckons the edge is cutting at close to 90 degrees to the grain on a conventionally grained bowl and that produces a finish that doesn't need scraping:

http://s108.photobucket.com/albums/n28/MichaelMouse/

It's obvious that care and a steady hand are needed.

OK, Ern, that's more or less it. Although I find that I still need to do some scraping cuts to get the finish I want. I do use the same beast to begin the inside of bowls but abandon it once I get some way into deeper bowls. I also grind the wings back a bit (to reduce the chance of catching those sharp corners while waving the gouge about near the job), but not as swept back as my Ellsworth, also shown in the attached pic.

Neil

rsser
16th Sep 2008, 01:52 PM
Yes, MM's gouge is shallower than a roughing gouge and I can see why you'd want a bit of relief on the wings on yours (and on his for that matter).

Stability is a question too. AFAIK the P&N rougher is the only such milled out of round rod which must add to its stability significantly.

rsser
16th Sep 2008, 02:00 PM
And on reflection, I'd warn newbies against turning with either of these tools. They present a wide cutting edge (relative to std bowl gouges) and with small pieces there's a clear risk of pulling the piece out of the chuck.

Edwards
16th Sep 2008, 06:25 PM
Hi Forumites
I was wondering what are the pros and cons of the Ellsworth grind over the standard/convential shape on bowl gouges? Also is the Ellsworth grind more suited to gouges 12mm and under or is it just as well suited to gouges 16mm and over? How hard is it to reshape a conventially ground gouge to the Ellsworth form, and what is the correct procedure. Also I would like to know how long is a piece of string :p.

The Ellsworth grind has many advantages over conventional grinds from the manufacturers which are cheeper to produce.
Provides a longer cutting edge.
Allows safer shear scraping to be done both to internal and external surfaces of a bowl or what ever.
Easier to achieve a smoother flowing curve than conventional gouges.
Less chance of dig in's therefore safer to use.
Harder to sharpen free hand but most jigs on the market make it a breeze. Refer Cliff's comments and links.

I do not have any connection to tool manufacturers or resellers.

Cheers
Edwards

rsser
16th Sep 2008, 06:53 PM
That hasn't been my experience on the whole Edwards.

I reckon you can do almost anything on a bowl with a 3/8" bowl gouge with pretty much straight across grind (HT superflute is my pref) and a 1" scraper or equivalent.

And also reckon we have been sold a lot of tools from N. America which don't usually suit our hardwoods. (Speaking as a tool addict)

Draw up a table .... wood X form X technique you're comfortable with.

tea lady
16th Sep 2008, 11:01 PM
I reckon you can do almost anything on a bowl with a 3/8" bowl gouge with pretty much straight across grind (HT superflute is my pref) and a 1" scraper or equivalent.
OK! Where's the pics of turning a bowl with a straight across grind.:? (Or a mock up Ern. I know you're winged at the mo. :rolleyes: Or is it getting better?:cool:)

Cliff Rogers
16th Sep 2008, 11:10 PM
Is it copyrighted Cliff?

If not, I'm happy to put an ISO of it on my 'website'.

Copyright 2008 Tormek AB. All rights reserved.

I went looking to see if I could find a copy of the particular clip on the net but I can't see one.

rsser
17th Sep 2008, 09:50 AM
TL,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4vPRcov_ws

It's a bit hard to see what his grind is but it looks to be a Woodcut gouge tip prob with wings ground a little further back than my Superflute.

As for inside technique, I push the gouge cutting edge inwards and upwards from the rim and then swing it around and down to the centre ... like following a question mark rotated 90 degrees anti-clockwise.

(It's easier to see what he's doing with the vid in full screen mode so go to youtube.com and add this to the url: /watch?v=r4vPRcov_ws

rsser
17th Sep 2008, 10:15 AM
In the pic, Irish/celtic/swept back grind on the left, and what I called straight across is on the right - the wings are moderately ground back. Sorry to add to the confusion; what some call a straight across grind means that all of the cutting edge is at 90 degrees to the shaft seen side on.

rsser
17th Sep 2008, 10:20 AM
In this pic, what others call a straight across grind is on the right.

And here's a discussion of flute shapes and grinds: http://www.peterchild.co.uk/info1/sflute.htm

tea lady
17th Sep 2008, 10:16 PM
Thanks for that Ern.:U Good to know a bit of history too.:2tsup:

Sawdust Maker
17th Sep 2008, 10:47 PM
Thanks Ern
I was wondering as well

Ed Reiss
18th Sep 2008, 01:27 AM
Good demo Ern!:2tsup:

That kauri really takes a shine. Is that a readily available wood in your area?

Cheers,

Ed :D

Cliff Rogers
18th Sep 2008, 09:12 AM
Swamp Kauri is a New Zealand timber.

The lathe the demo is using is also from New Zealand.

rsser
18th Sep 2008, 09:27 AM
And Ed, it's not me doing the demo. Found it on Youtube when trying to satisfy TL's curiosity.

Ed Reiss
18th Sep 2008, 11:57 AM
Cliff...thanks for the kauri info.

Ern...thanks for clarifying.

Cheers,

Ed :D

Grumpy John
19th Sep 2008, 11:03 AM
The Ellsworth grind has many advantages over conventional grinds from the manufacturers which are cheeper to produce.
Provides a longer cutting edge.
Allows safer shear scraping to be done both to internal and external surfaces of a bowl or what ever.
Easier to achieve a smoother flowing curve than conventional gouges.
Less chance of dig in's therefore safer to use.
Harder to sharpen free hand but most jigs on the market make it a breeze. Refer Cliff's comments and links.

I do not have any connection to tool manufacturers or resellers.

Cheers
Edwards


That hasn't been my experience on the whole Edwards.

I reckon you can do almost anything on a bowl with a 3/8" bowl gouge with pretty much straight across grind (HT superflute is my pref) and a 1" scraper or equivalent.

And also reckon we have been sold a lot of tools from N. America which don't usually suit our hardwoods. (Speaking as a tool addict)

Draw up a table .... wood X form X technique you're comfortable with.

That's the problem with asking questions, differences of opinion. All the replies to my initial post are really appreciated (even the off topic ones). I honestly didn't expect so much discussion on this topic.

Oh, can you two agree on how long a piece of string is :D.

Cheers
GJ

rsser
19th Sep 2008, 11:50 AM
Only if he agrees with me that's it's always the wrong length ;-}

rsser
19th Sep 2008, 12:18 PM
Some more comments about the 'Ellsworth' grind, actually the Ellsworth Signature gouge which has a steeper bevel at the tip and longer wings than most:

I do like the short bevel for getting around corners, and it enables me to hollow open forms without fouling the lathe bed with the handle (bearing in mind that despite the huge swing the Stubby 1000 only has a centre 26cm above the bed).

The long wings do make long scraping and shearing cuts easy. The downside is that sharpening them on my jig is time consuming so I opt for a std scraper wherever there's access. For the same reason, doing lots of roughing cuts is quicker with a P&N Supa gouge or anything like it with a non-swept back grind.

Cliff Rogers
19th Sep 2008, 10:27 PM
That's the problem with asking questions, differences of opinion. ....


I don't see that as a problem. :shrug:

EVERYBODY can have their own opinion, I don't give a rat's if it isn't right. :D

Grumpy John
20th Sep 2008, 07:36 AM
I don't see that as a problem. :shrug:

EVERYBODY can have their own opinion, I don't give a rat's if it isn't right. :D

Cliff,
I didn't mean that I saw it as a problem, and I apologise (I ignored the American spell check on this one :D) if people interpreted it that way. This forum has hundreds of regular respondents and each their own opinion and I think that is fantastic. You can take from it what suits you, this doesn't mean that the others are wrong, just that everyone has their own way of doing things. A lot different than when you were a kid sitting in the classroom and the teacher was god and you did things his/her way without question.

Cheers
GJ

Jim Carroll
20th Sep 2008, 10:36 AM
Thats the great thing with woodturners we all have opinions on what works for us and the need to spread around this knowledge.

Try all types of grinds and find the one you are comfortable with.

I personally like both the slightly swept back style and the elsworth/irish swept back style, just depends on the job in hand.http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=83744&d=1221606814 (http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=83744&d=1221606814)

I recently watched the Jimmy clewes dvd and he had a double bevel on one of his chisels to get a cleaner finish and tighter radius. Another one to try.

rsser
22nd Oct 2008, 01:06 PM
Just cleaning out the shed and came across these sheets supplied with the Ellsworth Sig gouge. May be of interest to others with a parabolic fluted gouge and a curiosity about the use of long swept back wings. It's the written complement to the diagrams posted earlier.

(The skewed layout is in the originals so don't tell me I'm cross eyed.)

You may need to save these to your PC and open them with a jpg viewer.

I tried to use a free PDF print program to produce a PDF file and it chopped the pages into multiple segments. Damn computers.