GIS as a sail-and-oar boat

[CCBB]

My main hang up on going ahead with the GIS is the lack of a mizzen and the uncertainty about its rowing abilities. My main idea is to use it as a sail-and-oar boat, but I hesitate about the lack of mizzen b/c as many know the mizzen makes it easier and safer to singlehand the boat when switching from sail to oar or vice versa. So, barring the addition of a mizzen as a riding sail what else can one do? With a crewmate I'd just have him or her on oars and keep the boat head-to-wind when doing the switch or when restowing gear, getting lunch out, etc. I could certainly anchor but that can be a pain. What about lying ahull (difficult to raise sail this way)...any other thoughts? A sort of sea-anchor to throw out on a short line such that as I drift the boat stays head-to-wind. I still like the mizzen idea...you can use it to back the boat up off a beach, spin the boat....

The rowing piece: someone was going to experiment with having the tiller lashed on the C/L and the rudder blade down a bit to act as a skeg. Did this work? Has anyone experimented with a skeg on the bottom? I like the skegs to be scooped out in profile on the aft end so as to make tacking easier. Thoughts on rowing the Goat, please.

Cheers,
Clint

[arbordg]

Clint - I intend to fit Sisu with a Huntington Helm Impeder partly for that purpose, but it doesn't look like it'll happen soon. I got involved in building a PDR for the world championship race, and now am circling back around and correcting all the shortcuts I took in order to get "Shredder" on the water in time. :rolleyes: Actual paying work keeps horning in also... don't these people know I have my own boats to work on?? :U


"God is not dead, but alive and well... and working on a much less ambitious project"

[Boatmik]

Howdy Clint,

I have an immediate part answer for this .. and that is that the 1880's style halyard setup allows the sail to be raised or lowered in a trice. If I was going to be doing a lot of this singlehanded I would consider running the halyard through the partner down to the mast step and put a pulley there to lead it back to the cleat near the back of the centrecase.

I left the mizzen off the GIS because I wanted to keep the cost and fabrication time down to a minimum.

Michael

[CCBB]

My boating in Maine looks like this on a typical summer day: head down to the shore...damn no wind...I will have to row...I'd like a boat that rows fairly well...after an hour of rowing or after spotting a patch of wind to row to I stick the bow into the wind -- a mizzen would keep me there -- as I fuss around getting oars stowed and the rig up, which should be quick, but nevertheless w/o a mizzen the current grabs the boat and sends it off the wind just as I try to hoist the sail or something happens that makes the process a little longer so having some time to get ready is great...again the plus of a mizzen. After a nice light air sail the wind drops again, the current starts setting me, and so I need to reverse the process and go rowing! So lash down the mizzen, drop the lug, tidy it up, and take out the oars and go. This is singlehanded. To row a bearing fairly accurately and not get too tired after long rows it is a plus to have a boat that will track well. With the kiddo aboard being able to sheet in the mizzen or heave to is ideal. So the mizzen is key and the more I boat on my home water the more I need that mizzen. I have not had any safety issues yet, but I can see the mizzen being handy here.

Yet, on many days the sailing will be a quick hour or two hour sail after work, get to the ramp, put up the lugsail, nevermind the mizzen, and go before the wind dies.

So this is why the mizzen is key. It'd be worth the extra work to have this versatility. Maybe if there are others interested Michael would be more willing to play around with this idea. I don't want to start my boat until we do. What do you think Michael?

Cheers,
Clint

[keyhavenpotter]

Hi Clint

would Raid41 / Solo meet your needs, after all she has a mizzen, is aimed at sail and oar raids, designed for single-handing in the first place, plenty big enough for a youngster on board as well. I guess if you need the larger capacity for more people some times Goat is bigger. Not that much in it though, looks like both hull bottoms come out of two sheets of ply, just Solo has no flair.

Brian

[CCBB]

Brian, Thanks for thought, but the GIS is what I need but with the proposed mods.

Other examples of the crazy type of conditions we see...the start if the sail can be a pleasant 10-12 kts of wind but the layout of the islands changes things...that 10-15 kt wind can turn into a 15-20 kt wind as you sail by a gap between islands....being able to quickly and easily reef is KEY. At the same time a 15 kt seabreeze can go to naught as you sail into the lee of a series of islands...lash the mizzen and row out of the lee (this can take a while!) and your back into 15 kts of wind! You end up doing more sailing in the time you have and get to enjoy a row. I love how it switches things up and doing the transition is enjoyable when the boat is set up for it.

Cheers,
Clint

[Boatmik]

Hi Clint

snip ...

Not that much in it though, looks like both hull bottoms come out of two sheets of ply, just Solo has no flair.

Brian

Brian,

I think you meant "flare"

:B

MIK

[keyhavenpotter]

You got me there MIK! Yes, you are spot on, Raid41 has no "flare", but huge amounts of "flair"!

Brian.

[Boatmik]

I would have been happy with a small amount of flair.

But to be accused of NONE!!!!

[Joost]

Hello MIK,

Talking about Solo (or Raid 41 as the boat seems to have been renamed), how are the plans progressing? I am really curious about her lines and sail plan; the idea behind the design is very appealing.

Hi Clint,

If you have time until mid October, I will be able to give you a first hand account of the GIS performance both under oars and under sail!

I do think however, but MIK please correct me if I am in the wrong here, that the GIS is intended as a classical looking performance sailboat with decent cruising capabilities. The emphasis being primarily on sailing, the shape of the hull is directed towards good performance under sail (I cannot help but to find the resemblance to the high end performance skiffs for example detailed in the “Interesting boat links” thread striking), and not so much geared towards rowing (freeboard a bit high, aft end of the boat too wide and no skeg available to enhance tracking).

This probably doesn’t mean that rowing a GIS will be bad, but there are designs around that will row better (these designs however will most likely not have the sailing capabilities of the GIS…).

The mizzen will, IMHO, not be doing the GIS any good. Beth is very narrow and therefore most likely needs the yawl rig set up to have sufficient sail area as the sails need to be set low with the center of effort close to the water. Raid 41 is more geared towards comfort/security than pure speed and thus you would want the sail area divided over smaller sails. The GIS is designed for speed and easy handling under sail rather than true comfort/security and therefore a single sail seems to be a better match than the yawl set up.

Furthermore I do not understand your need for the mizzen very well: If there is no wind at all, it should be very easy to lower the sail in an instant and the mizzen wouldn’t be able to do its job anyway. If there is a lot of wind you probably wouldn’t get your oars out and it wouldn’t matter so much (in my opinion life is only made easier by the single sail) that your boat doesn’t have a mizzen. When reefing, getting the sail down, tying in the reef points and hoisting it up again shouldn’t take too long (especially if some preparations have been made in advance) and I personally don’t mind bobbing around for a bit.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

Best regards, Joost

[CCBB]

Furthermore I do not understand your need for the mizzen very well: If there is no wind at all, it should be very easy to lower the sail in an instant and the mizzen wouldn’t be able to do its job anyway.

Best regards, Joost

Usually, there is enough wind to keep the boat pointed up into the wind while I swich to oars...it is easy to predict around here when the oars will need to come out for most efficient travel. I'd want to throw camping gear in and use the GIS to get out to islands...so using the boat to go from point A to point B the idea is that sometimes when the wind is light the boat would go better under oars.

If you haven't done this sort of sailing with a lug with mizzen rig, it will be hard to describe the inherent safety, convenience, and fun that it offers for sail-and-oar type of boat....a mizzen would do most boats a lot of good, incuding the Goat, for THIS TYPE OF USAGE and in THIS AREA. We should be open to the fact that there are different geographic areas that may have a slightly different need in the same boat. I do not intend to row the boat, excet as auxiliary power. I totally suggest doing some sailing in a yawl and seeing first hand how great a set up it is with a lugsail.

Many of my sails will be after work (like last night...was it ever nice!) and I'd step just the lug and go. But even there things happen...a wave popped my oars out of place last night and I had to restow them...with a mizzen I'd have sheeted it down and stuck her into the wind...instead I was bobbing around being pushed off the wind, the sail filling and I'd have to grab the tiller without having finished my knot to lash the oar down....yet another example to fuel my deadfast stance on this subject!

So, I have a little sketch of a very small mizzen raked aft stepped off the centerline (usually 11" will do) and a small boomkin to sheet the mizzen...it looks pretty cool.

If there was a boat that better fitted my needs, I'd be looking elswhere, but the Goat is still the best for me. Also, I have another kiddo coming so I need a boat that can go together pretty soon!

Cheers,
Clint

[Boatmik]

Joost ... you are one hell of a sailing dude!!!

The reason the Goat is this way ... is because it is a real sailing boat.

It is interesting to compare the Goat with my Rowboat design. The starting point for the rowboat was actually the Goat.

There are a huge number of subtle differences between the two boats. But they come down to one thing ... the Goat is designed to sail superlatively. You can see this in Olivier's Goat Island Skiff videos (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=78533) or my own. Particularly Olivier's onboard videos .. look how fast those waves are coming up on the boat (oh and it is good evidence of the smooth ride too ... all those guys who think flat bottomed boats pound .. the GIS is like a razor in dealing with waves)

The boat does row well enough to cover a few miles, but the height of the boat above the water means that it is not a really sweet rowboat. I have gotten round that sometimes just by putting the rudderblade in the centrecase to stop it blowing around when there is a long rowing stretch to cover.

So the MSD rowboat is a push in that direction ... would make a handy sailing hull, but it won't have the power and range of stability of the Goat ... people sailing it would have to expect to get wet (which is probably why that boat will never get a sailing rig.

Now Clint, I haven't been ignoring your question about making it more of a rowboat and changing it to a ketch/yawl. However there are a couple of problems.

At the moment the sail is in the right place and any mods could not involve moving the mast or the centreboard position ... it becomes too much work for the result. I can see why you would like such a boat Clint, but it is difficult for me to do. I am completely snowed under.

And If I don't move the mast or the centreboard and add a mizzen it will move the effective centre of the sailplan well behind the existing centreboard. The only way to respond is to move the mainmast forward (which I don't want to do) or move the sail forward without moving the mast .. which means I have to trim area off the back of the sail.

Because the sail area would be added right at the back of the boat where it has a lot of leverage relative to the centreboard then the back of the mainsail would have to be trimmed substantially more. Looking roughly, if 30 sq ft was added in the mizzen it looks like I would have to take around double that off the mainsail to keep things in balance. So adding a mizzen without moving masts or centreboard would reduce the sail area.

It would also increase the weight aloft .. which I don't want to do.

The boat does row OK as is and sails magnificently. When Peter's "Gruff" was new one of his daughters used to head off on quite long rowing expeditions.

If you have an extra long mainsheet it will allow the boat to lie beam on with the sail weathercocking. The halyard system is very efficient. If there are no tangles somewhere else the whole lot goes up quick and absolutely rockets down. If there are two on the boat you wont need a mizzen at all .. but agreed .. it is a boon for a singlehander

But ... I think we need to chat to Mr Graybeal ... who comes from an area with similar winds and also uses the boat in multiple ways ... he might have some ideas as he probably has a similar use pattern to what you intend.

Also don't think this is cut and dried too... if I can do anything to help within the frame of available time I will. So please continue to discuss.

I am thinking a small, but tall and narrow mizzen might just work. I can think of one UK class that has that setup. Helps keep everything light and won't drift the centre of effort too far back. You can trim the mizzen to minimise weather helm anyhow.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2254/2528748632_36cafa7d6f.jpg

Yes ... the very sexy "Salcombe Yawl"

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3078/2528748224_f908e9b9df.jpg

more pics
http://www.flickr.com/photos/25587178@N04/sets/

Michael

[Boatmik]

Maybe a skeg will work in with the mizzen too. Though I don't like to clutter up the underbody of any boat with stuff necessarily!

Michael.

[Joost]

Hello Clint,

I am trying to understand whether the design of the GIS meets your criteria: can the GIS be considered a true sail-and-oar type of boat, or if not, can it be made into one with some alterations (like your proposal to add a mizzen and skegs).

I am currently of the opinion (just my personal opinion) that the GIS is too much of a “sports” boat for true (overnight) cruising (due to the hull shape and sail plan) and that the aforementiond alterations would take away the GIS’ strong points (good performance under sail), but will definitely get back to you in a few weeks time when my GIS is out on the water and duly tested.

Being a pure sailor and not so much of an oarsman, I only switch to using oars when the wind has absolutely died on me and the boat is truly making 0 knots per hour. This of course doesn’t make for the most efficient way of travelling, so I understand your concerns regarding easy transitions.

Unfortunately I haven’t done any sailing (yet) with a lug with mizzen rig; most people here in the Netherlands are either into sailing small one design classes (either local Dutch classes or international ones like the Laser and such) or into big yachts which usually don’t support rigs with mizzens. But given the chance I will definitely give it a try.

I would be interested in seeing the little sketch of the very small mizzen raked aft that you made for the GIS (just for information purposes, I intend to keep the rig of my GIS standard :U).

Kind regards, Joost

[Boatmik]

Another Salcombe yawl pic .... they are just gorgeous boats.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2108/2408170073_9fb2e90505.jpg

[Joost]

Hello,

I posted my reply without noticing MIK’s response!

MIK, I will take that as a compliment!

Also, thank you for your explanation and for expending a bit on the consequences of changing the rig to a lug with mizzen rig.

I do intend to do some cruising (which would include rowing) here in the Netherlands. If the boat rows okay but will have outstanding sailing performance, I will be a very happy man!

That very small mizzen on the Salcombe yawl does look very nice.

Regards, Joost

[CCBB]

Thanks for replies guys. I've been thinking a lot about this idea and I take seriously all the little consequences of making changes. I've built a lot of boats, almost all to the plans as closely as possible and never strayed from the plans without consulting the designer and using a lot of good reasoning founded in some informal training and experience in boat design. You can tell, perhaps, that my reasoning is based on experience, too. At this point it is clear to me that I need the ability to have a lug-yawl; and I need all the rest of what the GIS offers too...so with that out of the way...

Some are obvious changes but the big one is keeping the sail plan balanced as Michael mentions. If there is a will there is a way...many of Oughtred's designs are rigged with an extra mast step or two...the Caledonia Yawl has three partners for dealing with sailing Lug alone, with mizzen, and in a reefed position. Moving the mast forward is a trick because of space...the arrangement below is elegant...

file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/MEREDI%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpgfile:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/MEREDI%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-1.jpghttp://homepage.mac.com/peterhyndman/GIS/construction.html#

Sorry, if the picture doesn't work, but it shows the mast step area near the bulkhead.

So, one solution is to have a hole for the mast forward of the bulkhead, in the sealed tank and boxed in with limber holes into the space with the current mast step. This aft mast step would stay for sailing w/o mizzen. When I take the mizzen I step the mast in a forward position...it probably won't be two far forward...exactly how far forward can be figured out pretty straightforwardly. How to integrate the construction into the current set up will take more thought, but it seems worth looking into. Another consequence, besides adding some complexity, is that we take away a little space and thus flotation from the compartment, but we can add that in the form of some floaties under the middle thwart. At the outset, I don't see any need to change the D/B position. The adjustment occurs in stepping the mast forward. Mik, is there a specific reason that you don't want to step the mast further forward? What is your guestimate on how much further fwd it would need to go. Do you agree with my approach?

Mik, I agree a tall narrow mizzen would be best...I like sprit rigged ones, but that sometimes necessitates a boomkin...where to sheet down to is the question...a boomkin is doable, or sheeting to the top of the transom if the mizzen has a boom with crutch. Now, I don't think we'd need nearly 30 SF...I sailed a wonderful Tony Dias designed high aspect lug-yawl called Harrier. She had this tiny heavily raked mizzen that was 12 Sf at most...very small rigged with a sprit and you take off the sprit and roll up the mizzen and pull it out...so easy. And that little mizzen made our week of sailing very comfortable and manageable in open water. I've lied ahull to put a sail up and it can work, but in a chop it would be VERY uncomfortable and make raising sail much mroe difficult...lying head-to-wind under mizzen makes 40 knots gusts and 3 foot whitecaps a picnic..I know this from experience...as long as there is plenty of leeway you can really relaxe when the boat is lying this way. (Now, I wonder how the skiff will lie head-to-wind compared to other boats I have sailed and done this with). Once we stopped for lunch under mizzen! So, one thought is maybe a 9' tall mizzen with a 15 SF mizzen maybe 20 SF (and only taking 60% of that in calculating CE....). If it were a high aspect mizzen it'd pull back the CE maybe a few inches...we can fix that by moving the lug mast forward and having a second partner...dealing with the bulkhead fwd of the current step is the trick. We can figure it out.

That Salcombe yawl is striking...I've never seen one. It is very clever how they appear to deal with the tiller-mizzen problem: by stepping the mizzen on the aft deck so the tiller can swing below it. (On our Goat we'd probably simply offset the mizzen stepped in the aft tank and with a boxed in step/partner) I think the yawl is absolutely gorgeous (and sketching a mizzen onto the Goat profile, which I did, looked very cool), all functionality aside, and I do think this will make the Goat even better or provide another option. I'd still be interested in hearing from the other fellow you mention, Michael.

My timeline is that I have a block of time to do this project between late December and when my second child is born!!!! And after that I have commission starting. Anyway, I'll be a better Dad if all personal projects are out of the way by next summer and that would be the goal and so I'd start in January...and I realize that my mods make the project longer but I'd still be building the designed Goat, and can add the mizzen a little later so long as the mods are planned out. But I do want to figure this out in the next few months, before I start the boat, is that doable for you Michael...the rest of the year is available and I can work on this too with some drawings. Perhaps we can talk about how to collaborate. I'd be happy also discussing a bit over the phone and making a call to you, which is sometimes a little more personal and better at communicating intentions and excitement.

Lets keep ideas flowing. I'll try to stay open minded and not get overzealous about the idea. Thanks for dealing with me.

Cheers,
Clint

[DALukens]

Clint:

Should be finishing my GIS soon, and sail is on the way as well.

We will be sailing the same waters (Portland, Maine), so I take all your points.

One question -- do you need the mizzen just to keep the boat into the wind while you raise/lower the lugsail, or would you intend to use the mizzen at all times. If only the former, could you add a light duty mizzen to be used for only that purpose that could be easily struck while using the larger lugsail (for example, using a roller furling mechanism)? That way, you could perhaps avoid center-of-effort necessitated changes to Michael's design. (That could have the salutory side effect of keeping Michael from having an embolism, stroke or some other mishap. I've had a lot of fun building the GIS and wouldn't want to hasten his demise!)

Just a thought. I'd be happy to let you experiment with my GIS for this purpose

Dana

[Boatmik]

Howdy Guys,

Thanks for talking and co-operating so well on this! I actually never imagined that there would be small groups starting to work together around the world!!

Really! Never thought of it.

The Salcombe yawls do have the mizzen offset just slightly. I would be keen for the mast to be fairly tall as it will make the weathercocking more definite as well as make the handkerchief much more in balance with the feeling of the mainsail.

I think it may be possible just to slide the mainsail a little forward with the standard mast position to make sure that the mizzen carries some load. That is one of the advantages of the balanced lug. You can shift it a little back and forward without moving the mast. The main restriction is the halyard position ... it can only go halfway back along the yard (for obvious reasons)

Best wishes
Michael

[CCBB]

Dana, If I step the mizzen in a boat I usually keep it there b/c I am pretty sure it will be used, but I have also just left it behind and stepped the main in the aft partner...

Mik, Would it be possible to obtain a scale drawing of the boat that I can "play with" to see what would work best and I can post here with your blessing.....I might rather move the mast fwd to make more room for the hankerchief mizzen so that one sail isn't crowding the other (something I found when I went through this process with a dory). A sail plan drawing may be all I need although a drawing showing the mast and partner location together would help me figure how far forward the mast would have to move. I'd also try moving the sail fwd as you suggest and post that...I'm afraid of ruining the perfect proportions you've created in the lug. I'd also want to look at sheeting of the mizzen and how that might work best. May I work on this with your blessing and a couple drawings? I'd be very happy to share what I do here for the benefit and learning of others.

You've created this international community of GIS freaks; that must feel pretty darn special!

Best,
Clint

[Boatmik]

Nah Clint,

I have simply designed a nice boat. The freaks are responsible for organising themselves!!!!

Warms the cockles of my heart!

I'll see about posting a drawing with a scale on it.

MIK

[CCBB]

...for the help