GIS Yawl

[CCBB]

Here it is, a lug-and-mizzen rigged GIS!

(Damn, I can't load it...Mik can you?)
(MIK: Yap!)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3262/2846278945_014170304c.jpg

It worked out exactly as anticipated...stepping the mast in a mast partner 'box' (i.e., a 2nd mast step) located immediately forward of the forward bulkhead. Turns out to be 8" fwd of normal position (assuming I figured out the scale correctly on your drawing, Michael...is it indeed 3/8" = 1"). Also, Mik, it'd be interesting to post your sketch. I like the look of a sprit-boomed mizzen raked aft. Mine is ~16 SF...I factored about 50% of this into the combined CE which lines up exactly with the lug-only CE stepped in the usual position, the aft position in my drawing.

The process was to trace a drawing Mik sent to me, draw in my mizzen, determine the combined CE and note the difference between it and the CE position of lug only. I moved the lug forward to the forward side of the bulkhead and when I refigured the CE location it aligned perfectly with the CE as designed. So, this is a balanced rig. Sailing hard on the wind it may need to luff slightly to keep weather helm down and it shouldn't add much to the effective sail area. I'll have the benefits of the mizzen and the option to step the lug alone in the aft position and go sailing w/o mizzen. I may see about using a carbon windsurfer mast for the mizzen to keep weight way down...when I want to douse the mizzen or de-step it you remove the sprit and roll up the mizzen (one reason I like a round mizzen) and throw a little line with a half-hitch to keep it rolled up. I have not looked at how well it will stow. I think the boomkin would go on the opposite side of the tiller but it looks low as it follows the aft tank top and extends out...too low?

As for the skeg...I drew that in last minute...I will row Dana's GIS before I decide it is really necessary for my usage. Hopefully it is not but I'd be willing to take the trade off if necessary.

The cons of this rig: extra construction time/complication, cost, more things to keep track of/break, and it adds some weight to the boat. I'll take them for the worth of a mizzen making this a great sail-and-oar boat.

Mik, please give me your thoughts. It looks nice doesn't it? The right area? How about my query about the boomkin?..too low if it just follows the tank out? Anyone know anything about windsurfer masts...would make a great mizzen spar, maybe even boomkin if I can find one cheap. I think the boxes for the mast partner/step would be built right off the transom and the bulkhead before the tops are glued down. What about the skeg thought (lesser of a priority).

Cheers,
Clint

[Boatmik]

Cool Clint!

Like it a lot.

Usually with balancing mizzens you only use half the mizzen area for the calculation of the revised centres. This is because the mizzen usually doesn't work as hard and the mainsail and also means that you can pull it on a little bit harder to get the helm balance you want.

A REALLY light mast is essential in this ... so glad Clint is looking at a windsurfer mast.

I still like the original GIS for simplicity and low cost ... Hoist the sail and GO!

When Clint wanted the drawing I suggested my own version. I was thinking the main mast might be able to stay in the normal position and just slide the sail a bit further forward.

I thought 100 to 150mm was achievable. This would allow the boat to be sailed with or without the mizzen.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3151/2846279065_253e29f462.jpg

The thing I like about Clint's version is NO BATTENS (I was struggling with myself when I drew it up. Being influenced by the lovely mizzens on the Salcombe Yawls (boats I have lusted over for decades). Though I do like the longer mast of mine (if it can be kept light as Clint suggests. The windsurfer mast would not have to be carbon .. standard glass ones are pretty light.

Look at these sexy mizzens on the Salcombe Yawls ...

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2394/2407043007_7956f5f4e6.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/25587178@N04/

The problems I faced were adding the mizzen without upsetting the balance too much. The tall mizzen gives the maximum power to hold the nose up into the wind with the minimum sail area.

Also I thought with the short boom a boomkin might be avoided by having a sheet each side coming through the transom and going to the boom end.

Don't know if it will work though!

Best wishes
Michael Storer

[keyhavenpotter]

Salcombe Yawl video for MIK

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RvJzzAv_6M&eurl=http://www.syoa.co.uk/videos.htm

[m2c1Iw]

Keyhavenpotter,
Nice video that class is a new one on me and whata dainty little mizzen a pretty boat.

I must say that fleet is a polite bunch too all going about on to port in unison to give water room, not sure you'd see that down here.

Cheers
Mike

[Boatmik]

Saw them in woodenboat about a decade ago ... the do go upwind pretty nice don't they! Though they have the tendancy of shortended heavier boats to drag their transoms at higher speeds downwind.

But ripper boats ... don't they fly and spin on a dime.

As Mike says ... I think that if you have sailed on a river most of your life then the sailing starts to look a bit different ... maybe to have clear air to get across adverse tide is the best choice!? Tide is well out at the end ... wonder which way it was going that narrow stretch.

Or maybe Englishmen are still polite!?

"No ... I insist ... you tack first old bean"
"No ... sorry .... after you old chap"

An Aussie would be shouting "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEER!!!!!!!!!!"

MIK (not being terribly serious)

[keyhavenpotter]

I reckon there is a fair amount of shouting in the background! Especially the ladies!

The reason for the different "coloured" fleets is that they have now three distinct groups of boats. The older less racy ones, the improved and race setup oldish boats and then the latest designed super fast ones. These latest designs are by top designers such as Ian Howlett no less. Cost - about £40,000 ouch!!

Talk about racing increasing costs. What started out as a local fisherman's boat which was raced at festivals is now a boat for the super rich. Now, imagine a bit fleet of Goats!
Brian

[b.o.a.t.]

Here it is, a lug-and-mizzen rigged GIS!

(Damn, I can't load it...Mik can you?)
(MIK: Yap!)

Cheers,
Clint


G'day Clint
can you darken your lines & re-scan ?
Can't see the picture
cheers
AJ

[b.o.a.t.]

Don't worry about it Clint.
Managed to 'push' the image in my very old & too good to replace iPhoto express
cheers
AJ

[CCBB]

TX AJ, much better. I use 2H pencil for most of my drawing out of habit...doesn't scan great.

I think the battened, high-aspect mizzen works well on the Salcombe b/c the main has a similar profile, so the two sails reflect each other, kind of look good together. In the mizzen I drew the sail looks like the lug so it seems to go together.

Mik the scale in those original drawings, can you confirm it was 3/8" = 1'.

I need some links or general info to get started on finding a windsurfer mast. Anyone used one before as a spar?

Cheers,
Clint

[keyhavenpotter]

Hi Clint

there are many ex-windsurfers, now too old, who still have a garage full of gear they cannot bring themselves to part with. So ask around your mates first.

Second, eBay is a great place for cheap windsurfing gear. Carbon masts are still a bit dear, glass ones would be free i should think.

I believe Swallow boats use a windsurfing mast for their mizzens.

On page three of the "Lug Rig Heaven" thread you can see my Scow. Her mast is just 50mm alloy tube, however both her yard and boom are alloy windsurfing masts. The gaff from the top 3m and the boom from the bottom 3m of a second mast.

Brian

[Boatmik]

Howdy Clint.

There was no scale because I can't control the size your computer prints it out at.

You have to work out the scale by measuring the metre scale at the bottom and dividing the number of millimetres that you measure by the number of millimetres in the original metres.

(the originals were both 1/30 on my computer - but that does not mean they are 1:30 on yours)

The advantage of the PDF of course is I can get it to you in a few minutes.

Hope this helps
Michael

[CCBB]

Thanks...I think I got lucky that when I measured the boat with my imperial scale it turned out to be 3/8" = 1' but I'll double check.

Thanks for the info, Brian.

I will check out ebay and I think I have some friends.....who are windersurfer dudes.

Cheers,
Clint

[koala]

Hi all

As I'm reading this thread it all looks nice but could someone give me a quick lesson in sails please? :B
What is the purpose of mizzen? I see BETH also has it (is that correct).
Thanks

[CCBB]

Koala, The answer depends on what kind of mizzen it is...the mizzen can be a trimming sail or a driving sail. As a driving sail, the mizzen carries a fair bit of square footage so that it is an important part of the total sail area...the boat needs the mizzen to help power the hull. In these mizzens they are usually bigger sails and common in ketch arrangements. In a ketch rigged small boat, the helmsman is often behind the mizzen mast. In a yawl rigged boat the helmsman is usually forward of the mizzen mast. Traditional sprit rigged boats were often ketch rigged such that they could carry a lot of sail area without having spars that were too long and difficult to stow. It also kept the total center of effort of the sail plan lower than if the same sail area was packed into one big sail. That was better on these typically tender hulls that the fisherman often would row for hours at a time.

The other mizzen type is used as a trimming sail. In other words, it doesn't drive the boat much at all, it is too small, but it is big enough to be useful in other ways. My mizzen I am putting in my Goat is very much a trimming sail, small maybe 15 SF at most and it will be raked aft a fair amount. On the water, when raising or lowering sail this small mizzen -- when sheeted down tightly -- will keep the boat head-to-wind which makes life a lot easier, safer and more enjoyable. You can turn into the wind to reef, stow gear, make crew shifts, eat lunch, you name it and the boat will bob head-to-wind and make a crazy situation quite calm. I've used the mizzen to help steer the boat...if I am caught in irons you can back the mizzen and the wind will push the stern in the opposite direction. I've seen, but not tried, backing up with a mizzen...I've watched people sail their Caledonia Yawl backwards off the beach and then turn off and sail away. I've seen the mizzen mast used to hold up a tent over the cockpit. So a trimming mizzen is very useful.

My drawing may change ever so slightly and will post a final drawing at some point...I may scale the mizzen down just a touch and rake it aft so the rake of the transom and mizzen is the same (which will help in construction when it comes time to build the partner/step) and carry the mizzen CE further aft to make it more effective. I forgot to mention, many lobstering boats carry a small sail aft and use it to keep the boat pointed into the wind...they call it a riding sail. Some people in bigger yawls will keep their mizzen up while at anchor to keep the swinging down to a minimum.

Does that answer your question?

Clint

[jmk89]

Clint

If all you are using a mizzen for is the trimming function of holding the vessel head to wind, wouldn't it be possible to just use a sea anchor (i.e. a canvas cone with the tip cut off at the end of an anchor warp). That looks like much less effort, takes up less space and you will drift to leeward more slowly as well.

My view is that a sail that doesn't help with sailing is too much effort, but then again different strokes....

[Boatmik]

I had written a longer reply basically agreeing almost entirely with Clint.

The only thing I really wanted to add was that the mizzen should not line up with the transom.

Best if the transom is the only one at that angle ... then it makes more of a statement about the hullshape.

MIK

[b.o.a.t.]

Clint

If all you are using a mizzen for is the trimming function of holding the vessel head to wind, wouldn't it be possible to just use a sea anchor (i.e. a canvas cone with the tip cut off at the end of an anchor warp). That looks like much less effort, takes up less space and you will drift to leeward more slowly as well.

My view is that a sail that doesn't help with sailing is too much effort, but then again different strokes....


A trimming mizzen does this job while under way as well as while hove-to.
Also can be used to balance or even self-steer the boat relative to the wind.

A sea anchor doesn't do these jobs quite so well ... :p

cheers
AJ

[jmk89]

A trimming mizzen does this job while under way as well as while hove-to.
Also can be used to balance or even self-steer the boat relative to the wind.

A sea anchor doesn't do these jobs quite so well ... :p

cheers
AJ

Agreed, but it seems a lot of fiddle for marginal benefits when you are dealing with a well designed and thoroughly sorted boat and when most circumstances that Cliff mentioned would be when the vessel is hove-to.

[b.o.a.t.]

Agreed, but it seems a lot of fiddle for marginal benefits when you are dealing with a well designed and thoroughly sorted boat and when most circumstances that Cliff mentioned would be when the vessel is hove-to.

Aye.
But then, some people like to have that extra piece of string to fiddle with.
Sort of like the difference between manual & automatic cars I guess.
And then there is aesthetics... some just like the look of the extra sail.
That it can perform a useful function is icing on their cake.

[koala]

Thanks Clint for your explanation.

Does that mean that once you raise the mainsail (e.g. at GIS) you need to control both sails?
Would the Goat sail even faster then if you sail with mizzen up? Or is the air flow arround the mainsail out of sync with the mizzen (as it is further back at the stern)?

Peter

[CCBB]

You can almost forget about the mizzen if it is very small...it has so little effect on the drive of the boat...it may have control over the amount of weather helm, but no the boat won't go faster or slower with or without the mizzen. It really effectively adds nothing to the overall sail area...in fact my mizzen which will be about 15 SF maybe a few more is only counted as half that area when if comes to figuring out the total center of effort of the sails. So that is maybe 8 SF...not going to make a big difference. But with the luf down and the mizzen trimmed in tight...it will help the boat ride into the wind or any of the other uses I explained before. So, yes you need to control both sails, but the mizzen very little compare to the big lug.

Clint

[Boatmik]

With Beth and my limited number of hands I found that I still had to a reasonable amount of trimming.

Usually after a tack a little and for any major course changes downwind. The rudder gives pretty direct feedback to tell you when something is not set up right.

Michael.

[Boatmik]

One other thing misplaced in my not saving a previous post was that for a small sail like this there is a great argument for going tall as the sail will be much more able to keep the nose up to the wind.

This is why I was so interested in the Salcombe Yawls ... that tall mizzen is as sexy as hell but also if functional if the twist is controlled.

A second factor is to keep the mast weight right down even with the height increase so a sailboard mast looks like a good choice.

Michael

[CCBB]

Mik, the question of what aspect ratio is right for a mizzen intended as a trimming sail is a debatable one. Do you know Tony Dias, a US small craft designer, very good. I sailed abit with him this past summer in one of his boats. His approach for a trimming sail is small (he drew the mizzen on one 17' boat at 11 SF!) and raked far aft to get the mizzen CE further aft. I believe his thought was that this was better for keeping the boat head-to-wind and easier to stow in a sail-and-oar boat (something that I like). It makes sense, but so does your thought of high-aspect with CE further forward. It'd make a great debate and I might try to stir it amongst some yawl fans I know of...here is a Q:

How tall can one go without requiring battens...I'm incined to stretch my mizzen shape vertically a little bit...but not sure how far to go...I'll play with it again soon and post a result, but in the meantime I'd be interested in the answer...it could mean not having to deal with a boomkin, which would be nice, but it'd probably mean having to use a boom rather than sprit. (Another thing Dias liked was to sleeve the mizzen mast in the sail and the yard of the lug in the sail...his standing lugs are very Nigel Irens-like).

This may be an example of there being many ways to achieve a similar result!

Clint

[Boatmik]

The limitations on spar height are

1/ weight of the mast - it doesn't need to be much bigger diameter but it does need to be longer which adds weight. A windsurfer stick makes a lot of sense!

2/ without battens (which is sensible for easy furling) the leach is cut with a slight hollow. At some point that hollow might become quite meaningful if the sail is high and thin resulting in a very narrow sail near the top ... there is no point in this

3/ problems with sail twist. if the sail twists excessively then there was no point going high in the first place. A great argument for a sprit boom.

X/ a funny argument I just thought of is that a tall mizzen can easily be allowed to twist off by easing the snotter a whisker rather than reducing the sail.

XX/ a narrow sail is easy to furl without leaning so far over the back of the boat and allows for a shorter boomkin etc or may be able to avoid a boomkin using dual sheets from the transom corners.

As far as a debate ... I would frame it from the point of view that the height does make the nose to wind effect stronger assuming twist is controlled. The shorter foot and lower area allows retrofitting to an existing boat with smaller changes to the existing rig.

I don't think anyone would be technically equipped to make any argument based on aspect ratios ... it is an insignificant effect and even more so when applied to an insingificant sail ... the whole argument of making it taller is just to get more turning effect from a very small sail.

MIK

[m2c1Iw]

Clint,
Interesting concept you are developing here hope you don't mind me asking some questions.
1. How will the mizzen be stepped to allow for tiller, offset I assume so how does this affect performance on either tack.
2. What use are you proposing for your GIS as it seems you regard a mizzen as critical to your sailing along with good rowing qualities from the hull.
3. My guess is balancing mizzens have been developed over the years for specific handling characteristics as you have previously descibed ie fishing and such or perhaps to correct a deficiency in rig balance or hull form ie to remedy lee helm. I have not read any descriptions on how the GIS steers on all points so I am assuming no news is good news as in it is well behaved on all quarters.
So I can't help wondering if this exercise maybe somewhat futile, I hastily add that I do not mean to quench you enthusiasm for the project. Experimentation is always a good thing and an admirable pursuit in itself.

Just wondering
Mike

[Boatmik]

Some issues I would like a shot at here too Mike, if you dont' mind.


Clint,
Interesting concept you are developing here hope you don't mind me asking some questions.
1. How will the mizzen be stepped to allow for tiller, offset I assume so how does this affect performance on either tack.

Slightly offset ... that is why the mast is so close to the transom.


2. What use are you proposing for your GIS as it seems you regard a mizzen as critical to your sailing along with good rowing qualities from the hull.

Not ideal from storer's point of view as he likes the simplicity of the original boat and can't see the real need. However I am happy to collaborate to make this hybrid behave as well as possible


3. My guess is balancing mizzens have been developed over the years for specific handling characteristics as you have previously descibed ie fishing and such or perhaps to correct a deficiency in rig balance or hull form ie to remedy lee helm. I have not read any descriptions on how the GIS steers on all points so I am assuming no news is good news as in it is well behaved on all quarters.

With the standard Goat there is no problem with balance. Also there is a considerable opportunity with the balance lug to slide the rig backwards and forwards a bit. Also downhaul and stretchiness of halyard have a big effect. If they are set up properly to restrict twist then that tends to induce weather helm as well. (ie a too floppy downhaul can result in a slight feeling of lee helm so best to fix that before the rig is slid forward or back relative to the mast.


So I can't help wondering if this exercise maybe somewhat futile, I hastily add that I do not mean to quench you enthusiasm for the project. Experimentation is always a good thing and an admirable pursuit in itself.

Just wondering
Mike

[CCBB]

Thanks Mik. I don't think this idea of adding a mizzen to the boat is futile at all, Mike, or else I would not have tried. I have a bit of background in design -- nothing like Mik's but enough to understand the designer's concerns but enough to know what can be done with out ruining something....adding the mizzen is a variation of the original concept but I think it is a variation not a diversion...it is an option that may make the boat more flexible for different people's style of use in different parts of the worls. The great thing....i that the original boat is still there...I will have the original mast step and the ability to step the lug only...it is the same boat.

2) Mike you asked about the use...I explain in several posts back. I do not ask for rowing qualities from the boat, just a boat that I can row for auxilliary power from one lee side of an island to another lee side of an island with perhaps a burst of sailing between...this can occur in one daysail or in a multi-day sail up the coast. A mizzen is critical, in my view, to using the boat as more cruiser on occassion and as a dayboat on other occassions. So there will be two steps to suit. I also plan to sail with kids and the mizzen will help manage issues of they come up; outside a beach landing stick her into the wind lower the sail and row in...she'll bob into the wind and I can take my time switching to oars.

I will post the latest drawing that I think will clinch it. Mik, any chance I can get a plan view drawing to accompany the profile views you sent? And I will try to resize the file with the link you sent. I am happy with the latest version, a little more rake in the mizzen and higher cut...

Cheers,
Clint

[m2c1Iw]

I will post the latest drawing that I think will clinch it. Mik, any chance I can get a plan view drawing to accompany the profile views you sent? And I will try to resize the file with the link you sent. I am happy with the latest version, a little more rake in the mizzen and higher cut...

Cheers,
Clint

Clint,
I came across your discussion on another forum re adding an interchangable mizzen.
I have only sailed on one yacht with a mizzen actually a 50' ketch were it was big enough to be deemed a driving sail I certainly am not qualified to criticise your endeavour nor is that my intent.
I look forward to the result of your thinking and hope the end result works to your satisfaction.

Regards
Mike

[keyhavenpotter]

Can confirm that the Swallow Boats Bayraider does use a windsurfing mast for it's mizzen mast. Also uses one for the gunter spar. Rather than the usual affair of twin wooden jaws going round the mast sides at the bottom of the spar it uses a very neat idea. The top section of the mast has a dinghy fairlead track fitted on it's back face and the bottom of the gunter spar has just a sliding hinged fairlead fixed to it.

The weights of the different versions are

Polyester GRP - 430kg
Epoxy GRP - 370kg
Plywood Epoxy- 360kg
Carbon Epoxy - 270kg

using the same sort of proportions.

So a Polyester moulded Goat would be 20% heavier
An epoxy moulded Goat would be about the same.
And a full carbon Goat about 20% lighter.

I guess with Goat's large expanses of flat areas which would need greater strengthening the results would be even more in plywoods favour.

Congratulations to good old plywood I say!

Would you say these proportions are about right MiK?

Brian

[Boatmik]

Howdy Brian,

Normal solid glass cannot compete with plywood.

You should have seen the 'glass guys trying to compete with the plywood racing dinghies in OZ where the hullweights for racing dinghies are around 8 to 10 lbs a foot on average (we can forget about Moths for our two countries that got down to about 3lbs/ft)

At those weights the plywood boats were stiff, strong and reasonably durable, but the glass boats would have a competitive life of about a season and a half (if they EVER were competitive) and often came out 10 or 15lbs heavier for boats in the 12 to 14ft range.

By reasonably durable ... a couple of very early boats in the Manly Junior, sabot, Heron and sabre classes have blitzed national championships though they are 30 (maybe closer to 40 years old now.

The only way to compete with timber is to go to foam cored composites. And this is where the class associations made the big mistake ... they didn't specify how thick the core could be to match timber ... so suddenly foam glass boats were stiffer than wooden ones with the result that the wooden boats did not get a really good look in with race results any more.

This happened with the Optimist a few years back where they still had a fairly crappy timber construction method but allowed all sorts of sophistication in foam/glass.

And it has just happened with the Australian Sabre ... a very popular and cheap timber dinghy where timber boats could be built quite cheaply ... maybe $3000 (same price for an excellent timber second hand one too) .. but now if you want to win the nationals you NEED a foam/glass boat .. maybe about $8000.

Sigh.

The foam boats are prone to denting if you put them down on a stone ... so people have elaborate dollies or cradles under the boat at all times.. more expense ... and you can't really use them for cruising any more .... incase you have to land on a rough beach. With a timber boat you can IF YOU ARE CAREFUL(you may scratch paint) but the foam boats always seem to accumulate a few dents.

____________________________________________________-

Now can I move to philosophy a bit ....

The next bit might be parochial ... but it isn't meant to be

One interesting point was when they started to amalgamate the Australian 14ft dinghy with the International 14.

The big argument was over hull weight.

From memory at the time
Oz boats were 130lbs OZ14
UK/Canada/US boats were around 280lbs. International 14

The International 14 guys were already experimenting with foam and a lot of carbon ... but carbon was banned in OZ because of the cost.

THE HEAVIER BOATS WERE ALREADY USING CARBON BUT WERE TWICE THE WEIGHT of the non carbon ones!!!!

Additionally there were big concerns from the Northern Hemisphere that if they went much lighter then the boats would become unreliable .... but the OZ boats had a track record of a decade or two with very high reliability at half the weight.

It took them a decade to sort it out. The OZ boats showing good faith my changing over to the international rig specification quite quickly .. but the hull negotiations went for a long time.

So .... why were the Northern Hemisphere sailors stuck with such heavy boats when they were already using carbon!!!!

It is because of expectation ... if all the boats you are used to are so heavy ... then it is really hard to break the mindset.

In OZ we had it too ... when Ben Lexcen came up with his plywood 18ft skiffs in 1960 at a third of the weight of the planked ones at the time and with a crew of three rather than 5 or 6 they were promptly banned and it took 10 years for those changes to become acceptable.
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=706347#post706347

So .. when I look at the swallowboats ... despite they quote Carbon or timber or whatever ...

They look incredibly heavy to me!!!!

And it seems dumb that they have to move to exotic materials to get the weight down when I can easily imagine building at much less than the carbon weight in wood ... why isn't the wooden one 360 lbs??????? instead of the same in KG.

Why isn't the carbon one a shade over 200 lbs and why isn't the glass one the weight of their carbon one.

If I can't build the whole thing under 360lbs in wood ... then I know nothing about boat design and building.

BTW .. I am sure they would do a prettier job than me ... I am tempramentally unsuited to professional boatbuilding!!!!!

So .... It comes down to a culture argument again. I am lucky to be influenced by what the NZ and OZ builders have been doing for decades .. so my starting point is really different. (actually John Claridge would know exactly what I am on about too so not just NZ and OZ ... there are people doing great stuff around the world ... but most get seduced by carbon etc without really examining the possibilities of more standard materials used more wisely).

BUT ... on the other hand .. I wonder if the Swallow's weight and stability will make it a much easier boat for an average sailor to take on a RAID ... and the performance is more about average good performance than out and out speed.

However (don't I love those sentence conjunctions!!!!) why not make it OZ light and put in bigger water tanks for ballast?

MIK

[CCBB]

Hey all. I retraced Mik's drawing and made some slight changes:
-- I raked the mizzen aft a little to equal the transom rake which should facilitate building the mast partner/step/box assemblage (always thinkin" like a boatbuilder!!! Make it easy!)
-- I drew the clew of the mizzen higher to get the CE of the mizzen up higher where it will do more work without adding much sail area
-- I rechecked my scale and it was off so fixed that and got a corrected sail area for mizzen: 14 SF.
-- I also thought a little more and came up with some questions and potential solutions but will come back with those later (you'll see in the drawing that I left the boomkin out and did not draw in the sheeting arrangement; more later...)

[Boatmik]

Howdy Clint,

Aesthetics are always the hardest part to agree on, but I have some suggestions.

For some reason this mizzen looks visually weak and doesn't seem to relate well to the mainsail geometry, surprising, because in some ways it is not much different from your drawing on the first page (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=78940).

Part of it might be the extra rake which has moved the mast head further away from the main.

I would suggest bringing the mizzen back to your previous drawing on page one with the same length boom as shown here in the current drawing.

I wouldn't be worried about the mizzen and transom having different rakes. It does look better that way as it makes the mizzen relate more strongly to the mainsail visually. As a building detail it means the hole at the top (partner) is a few millimetres forward of the parallel position. At any rate the parallel position makes little practical difference because the bottom of the boat and the tank top are a different angles to the transom so the measurements will be quite different. I can use CAD to confirm the relative positions if you like.

Also the mizzen has lost some visual strength because the foot (bottom edge) of the sail has lost its relationship to the angle of the main foot. They should not be the same angle, but the mizzen foot should be tipped at a slightly steeper angle than the main. This can be easily fixed by moving the existing boom you have drawn downward.

It looks like the mast is also a bit shorter than the original from page 1. As discussed the tiny Salcombe Yawl mizzens work visually because of their height ... I would recommend adding about 300 to 400mm to the mizzen mast height.

In theory this would mean a recalculation of the centre of the sail area again ... but I wouldn't bother. it is not going to make much difference and if there is a difference it will be in the right direction (weather helm). At worst it will mean the mizzen sheet will be eased an inch more compared to one with a slightly smaller area.

By the way the step and partner arrangement for a sail of this size stepped so close to the transom can be very light indeed. Many designers don't realise just how much load the deck can take from a mast so overbuild partners terribly (I did with my original BETH ... at least for the mainmast but have become gradually more daring). Probably will need little more than a block under the deck that is deep enough to prevent the mast from bruising. BTW to prevent the mast from splitting at either the end or at the partner a couple of rounds of glass tape at both positions will prevent any probs.

Best wishes
Michael

[CCBB]

Well, based on Mik's thoughts and going back to some prior thinking -- that the mizzen should "go with" the main aesthetically -- here is a revision. I like it, what does Mik think? Lets look at it next to the previous version.

Hopefully this looks good and we can look at some questions and go to the next step, more of a construction plan.

Cheers,
Clint

[Boatmik]

Howdy Clint,

I am happy with that. Looks much better. So you can go with it if you are happy too.

If it was me drawing it up, I would go for more height and shorten the boom in proportion ... just to make a more striking looking sail like the Salcombe Yawls.

Currently it is a lovely normal proportion and you can leave it there with my 100% blessing. But if you want to stir people up with a gorgeous looking rig then more height in the mizzen (without increasing area) would be a good way of doing it.

Did you see what Nigel Irens did with the lug rig on his Romilly design?

http://www.amateurboatbuilding.com/articles/design/burnett_irens/rom-pict.gif
http://www.nigelirens.com/FRAMEcruising.htm

That mainsail is so tall and striking that it transforms the appearance of the boat .. and identifies it as something very different. Without that main it would be a normal classic design, but the designer's background in seriously fast multihulls creates something wonderful.

It is not practical to do a high mainsail in the GIS, but the handkerchief mizzen we are talking with such a light mast from a windsurfer ... might be worth considering.

Big downside of such a rig is controlling the sail twist. But with the Goat mizzen it is a sprit which is very effective at limiting twist.

However I am happy with your sketch above Clint. It depends on what you want to do.

Michael

[CCBB]

Mik, Thank you kindly. I "discovered" Romilly and Roxanne when I was thumbing through and old Wooden Boat mag at lunch one day...I literally coughed up my sandwhich when I turned the page on saw a photograph of Romilly. Immediately the sail rig took over. Then the classic shape of the cabin perched on a beautiful hull took over. So, my wife and I are looking for a 22-25' dayboat for us as a family and it is hard to find something as beautiful. I could build her on commission, but to do it on my own time would be hard...the GRP ones are too expensive. But, anyway, I know what you mean.

I may try stretching the mizzen vertically a little more. Not sure I can do so without having to add battens aloft.

So, the next step is to look at things in plan view and blow up the profile view and sketch out construction ideas to work out a couple issues I foresee:

1) Moving lug fwd pushes it up and reduces the spread between step and partner about an 25-35mm. Solution? Laminate a collar around the partner on the tank top to give extra support to make up difference.

2) Is the tank top for the mizzen high enough to brace mizzen? I thought a collar or two laminated onto the tank top around the hole for mizzen (in addition to framing below for both partners) would give lots of support. The alternative solution is to raise tank top heights a little bit, but would like not to have to.

3) Would the usual sheeting arrangement still work fine with the lugsail in the forward position?

4) I've seen various sheeting angles put on a sprit-boom...does mine seem OK? Or does the boomkin need to be longer? I do like a more stubby boomkin.

It is interesting that what totally attracted me intially to the Goat is the same thing that drew me to Romilly...a beautiful sail plan! So I'll sleep on this one awhile and think of the questions in the meantime.

Cheers,
Clint

[Boatmik]

Howdy Clint, Just suggesting a bit of a tweak ... for Art's sake.

You were right in the beginning about the battens ... or the avoidance of them .... stick to your guns on that one, but just tweak a little more I think.

Best wishes
MIK

[CCBB]

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1952629#post1952629

This is a great post with a response by a lug-yawl aficionado.

Demonstrates why I love this rig so much.

Clint

[robhosailor]

Did you see what Nigel Irens did with the lug rig on his Romilly design?

http://www.amateurboatbuilding.com/articles/design/burnett_irens/rom-pict.gif
http://www.nigelirens.com/FRAMEcruising.htm



Did you see Bjorn Thomasson Design???
http://www.thomassondesign.com/choosing/small_boats/sharpie_600.aspx

http://www.thomassondesign.com/img/sharpiebild1.jpg

http://www.thomassondesign.com/img/sharpiefoto4.jpg

...a bit similar to Nigel Irens's one - isn't it?

[robhosailor]

I like yawl rig for skiffs. Yawl rig for small boats proveniency from English beach boats is. I skeched similar one for Radoslaw Werszko's 4.2m skiff:

http://www.robert_hoffman.republika.pl/userfiles/skiff_42m_cat_yawl02.jpg

Yes MIK, I know your opinion about it :;:;:;

Aloha !!! :U

[Boatmik]

Hi Robert ... if you wanted to push comparisons further ... here is the same boat that is similar in profile to the Irens boat.

Quite different in hullshape

http://www.thomassondesign.com/img/sharpieritning.jpg

But compare to a Norwalk Island sharpie 18 ...

http://www.nisboats.com/pics/BoatDesignPicsLarge/NIS-18-yawl-layout.jpg
http://www.nisboats.com/pics/BoatDesignPicsLarge/NIS-18-Yawl-Fold-rig.jpg

The same off centreboard and very similar centreboard profile and even the lead.arrangement in the centreboard. I drew up the ketch rig for NIS .. it took huge effort to keep the centres of the sail areas down to the same height as the original cat rig. It is difficult to get enough stability into a little 18fter with a narrow bottom so the sail area has to be squat.

MIK

[Boatmik]

hmmm ... hijacking my own thread ... back to GISs again please!!!

[robhosailor]

... if you wanted to push comparisons /.../

:oWow! Yes Bjorn Thomasson's Sharpie 600 is a clone of both them :o IMHO ...

SORRY !!! I will return to GIS

[Boatmik]

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1952629#post1952629

This is a great post with a response by a lug-yawl aficionado.

Demonstrates why I love this rig so much.

Clint

Yes ... this is useful with BETH too of course.

You can use the mizzen for pretty precise reverse parking. Which can be nice when there is a screeching onshore breeze and you need to go into a confined space.

Nice to go in backwards and it is amazing how far you can direct the stern by pushing the mizzen to the left or right manually.

Much nicer that with wind behind and cracking the 15knot limit!!!

With the Standard Goat I would just drop the sail offshore then just let the boat blow in going forward. There would be enough speed for steerage way and the possibility of making hte boat go a bit faster by one of the crew standing up to increase windage.

Best wishes
MIK

[Boatmik]

:oWow! Yes Bjorn Thomasson's Sharpie 600 is a clone of both them :o IMHO ...

SORRY !!! I will return to GIS

Remember though that such ideas can start with a client who tells the designer what they want. But if I had the profile of the NIS showing the bottom shape and centreboard arrangement ... comparison would be even more stunning.

MIK

[robhosailor]

Remember though that such ideas can start with a client who tells the designer what they want.

MIK, I know about it perfectly - I'm an interior designer :B

[CCBB]

However (don't I love those sentence conjunctions!!!!) why not make it OZ light and put in bigger water tanks for ballast?

MIK

Mik,

I wondered the same exact thing...I think there isn't enough room in the boat. Already the volume under the false floor is used for the water and at least one user, maybe more, are complaining that the false floor is too high in the boat...they were trying to get about 4 adults worth of volume in the bottom of the boat for water ballast. They did a great job, I think, with a very tricky design challenge.

What I like about the yawl rig for the Goat is that when sailing solo that mizzen will be very handy for beach cruising, sailing with a green crew, and doing sail-and-oar type things, like the Maine Island Trail here in my backyard. And the best thing is that often the mizzen will just stay ashore and the standard Goat is still there!

I noticed the boomkin-sprit mizzen arrangement in the skiff yawl posted a couple back...one of my uncertainties is the sheeting angle that is right for such a sail. If you look at the way I drew it (much like I've seen on Oughtred boats) the sheet pull forward on the end of the sprit. Others I've seen the sheet pulling more down and aft. Which is better?

Cheers,
Clint

[CCBB]

Post #34 shows the yawl rig. I have stretched the mizzen vertically a little more. It is now 9' long and looks nicer. The mizzen is 15 Sf lashed to the mizzen mast. I will go with this rig. There are still questions:

1) How long should the boomkin be/what sheeting angle would be best for use with this sprit mizzen.
2) If I cannot find a carbon mast I may go with a spruce birdsmouth and make it as light as possible. This brings up Birdsmouth questions, more on that later.
3) Since I will be doing some trips with the boat and carrying gear I wondered about raising the tops of the tanks for added buoyancy. Would be easy enough to do, unless I am not thinking of a complication. But what will the current tanks float for weight?

Birdsmouth. Maybe it's own thread!?

Cheers,
Clint

[Boatmik]

Howdy Clint, the tops of the tanks are already out of the water after capsize.

The best way if you want a heck more volume is to box in the centre seat. I even occasionally think of extending it forward a bit too. You would need to organise limber tubes through the mid seat area.

As far as the birdsmouth mizzen ... I think it is hardly worth it ... the stick will only be about 45mm diameter and rounded. But you like these tricky jobs! If you wanna ... I am right behind you!

Spritsails are a bit independent of sheeting angle because the vanging is taken care of by the snotter tension.

I generally have two setups I use for boomkins to prevent the sheets from snagging round the underside.
1/ Have the boomkin a bit shorter than the length required for a vertical sheet This way if a bight drops in under the boomkin it will probaby pull out from under with a tweak on the sheet.
2/ Have the sheet leading slightly forward as it goes up to the boom, and have the boomkin a good 100 mm longer than the sheet position required .. the excess length on the boomkin helps prevent the sheet from dropping under the boomkin in the first place.

MIK

[CCBB]

Michael, that 45 mm figure is that constant or can we taper that towards the top a little. 45 mm to 35 mm? That would make a straight taper and cutting staves for a B'mouth easy. I'm still looking for a composite windsurfer spar.

[Boatmik]

Howdy Clint,

There is nothing nicer in this world than a properly laid out taper. The classic taper also means you have the right stiffness at the right height for the load. Or pretty close.

Do you want me to draft it up for you? Or do you know the method of drafting up a circle twice the diameter of the mast and dividing it up?

MIK

[CCBB]

I don't know that method, Michael. But I have learned through this process so lets keep going!

[CCBB]

I am in the process of finding wood for the boat! It will be mucho Eastern White Spruce for spars, side frames, gunwales, and knees/breasthook and probably Cypress for chine logs (trying to find reclaimed wood) as well as for bottom frames and maybe side frames if the Spruce is so-so. Throw in a little native W. oak for skids, and ash or walnut or cherry (something tasty) for g' wale capping. This is a favorite part of project planning; like going to the ice cream store. I am killing 2 birds and doing the same wood assignments for the MSD that our students will start in a little over a month. If I get lucky and find clear enough Northern White Cedar I'll use that in place of the Cypress.

Why I can't find a carbon stick for the mizzen, I do not know. But I have enough leftover staves from another B'mouth spar that I think that will be a good use for those leftovers.

I always start thinking about a name for at this stage, very important! I do know that it will be a teal color hull with white underbody/varnished interior of course.

Stay tuned; I have to redo the woodwork in a canoe and make some spars for another Goat first.

Cheers,
Clint

[Boatmik]

So it will be a larger version of the Slovenian GIS model by Koala!

I thought that model looked fantastic ... so a full size one will work too.

Best wishes
MIK

[CCBB]

I can't decide. The first yawl is pretty jolly.

Maybe the second will be better.

So, this mizzen rake is good. It is about 15 SF. 9' tall mast. It's a keeper.

The first image, the jolly one, uses a sprit. New trend?

Cheers,
Clint

[Boatmik]

Hey Clint,

You had me going there!!!! I looked at the thumbnail and thought "what the hell is he doing .. it was all sorted out .. and now he is changing it"

Haha! Well done.

MIK

[CCBB]

Gotcha. Merry Christmas!

[CCBB]

I forgot to ask in the above...

Any need for a short light batten or two in the long leech of this mizzen?

[Boatmik]

Battens make the furling of the sail agains the mast impossible.

But also .. if the sailmaker cuts it correctly I don't imagine any problem at all. Haven't seen any actual problems over many, many sails on a great variety of boats ... so it seems sailmakers get it pretty right.

Best wishes
Michael

[CCBB]

Mik, TX, that makes sense.

What would be the best place to ask about conflicting info in the manuals?

--Clint

[Boatmik]

Email is fastest at the moment. I can check it more easily and the lack of images make it download faster.

My internet connection problem should be resolved soon.

Michael

[CCBB]

I tweaked the mizzen yet again so that it fits into the stern of the dory better. Both plans attached.

This dory is to be a companion to the Goat, using the same rig as well as able to take a couple more rigs that I will draw for the boat, a trad. dory rig and a standing lug rig.

The dory will have a centerboard and I'll follow the same foil design but make it a centerboard. A lot of thought has yet to go into its design.

One of our volunteers commented that the lesser rake of the mizzen in the dory looks more pleasing to the eye. It made me think maybe so. Michael, what do you think of the mizzen rake at this point?

Cheers,
Clint

[Boatmik]

Howdy Clint,

I agree. Probably because the dory has so much rake at the ends. Will be REALLY interesting to compare the sailing capability and performance of the two boats under the same rig. Not to mention the rowing performance with the rig partly up.

Best wishes
MIK

[keyhavenpotter]

Hi Clint, would it be ok for me to mention what caught my eye most as a comparison. The two rudders. Lovely deep blade for Goat and what looks a bit shallow depth on the dory? Hope it's ok to say so, I am no dory expert at all, it just caught my eye. Looking again it might be just how you drew the water line.

Compare with Iain O's dory of a similar size

http://jordanboats.co.uk/JB/IainO_Catalogue/John%20Dory.pdf

Brian

[CCBB]

Brian, Yup good observation...that construction is just a sketch without looking at dimensions. In fact, IO's John Dory, which I have built, will be a useful guide for sizing centerboard, rudder, etc. He drew 7 rigs for his John Dory, one of which is a nice balance lug sail, but not as nice as the Goats. I'll prob. add a little length to his CB.

It will be interesting to have these two boats with the same rig, Mik. These two boats represent the next 2-3 years of my shop life (less if I lose my job!), so it is fun to see it coming together.

Clint

[MiddleAgesMan]

Speaking of rudders (it looks a little small to me, too, but I ain't a dory expert by a mile!), I'm wondering if the Aussie rudder box could be adapted to a traditional craft like a dory...It sure would be nice to be able to raise and lower the blade Aussie style while keeping the traditional look...?

If you think about it, the angle of the attachment and the immersed leading edge are perfect for a rudder box. When the blade strikes bottom it would just slide up. It shouldn't be too hard to rig lines that let you pull it back down...

[keyhavenpotter]

Will be a fascinating comparison. You do realise Clint, that you are going to have to make two rigs to really test them side by side, and you will need another helmsman - consider my application for that post as applied for.

Brian

[CCBB]

Thanks for thoughts guys. I think the Aussie rudder box is ingenious and saw it for the first time on the GIS.

But I have to go with tradition and do the dory rudder. It will be mounted on a bronze rod so the rudder slides up the rod rather than popping out of gudgeons so it is practical. And, until I sailed an Alpha-Beachcomber this past summer, I thought the rudders on those boats were way undersized. But somehow the thing digs beautifully and gives great control. That is largely due to the fact that under sail power, especially in a breeze, the stern squats and the rudder sinks and digs even more. This is also why a GIS would whoop even the best sailing dory especially on the wind and on a reach. However, the dory will be used for tandem rowing as much as it is used for sailing, a true sail-and-oar boat.

Back to the GIS, I will be able to sail the dory next to Dana's GIS which will bear a new sail rig soon. The sail rig is coming together nicely. See pics on my new website.
www.clintchaseboatbuilder.com (http://www.clintchaseboatbuilder.com)

http://www.clintchaseboatbuilder.com/resources/danaspars1.jpg

Cheers,
Clint

[Boatmik]

Very nice ... a quick explanation of what you are doing might be interesting to go with the photo (remember to put the same text with the photo on your webpage too - it will attract people looking for info on google very effectively.

Also I did notice this
http://www.clintchaseboatbuilder.com/resources/Little+Goat.jpg

I particularly like the antique stool that supports the Goat! You have a very high grade of trestles for your mini goat Island Skiff Model!

MIK

[DALukens]

Clint:

I am looking forward to sailing this Spring and seeing the GIS yawl you are building. Judging by the quality of your work, I'm sure that comparing my GIS to yours will be like comparing the build quality of a Trabant to that of a BMW!

By the way, I am thinking that a 5 hp gas motor is too heavy and bulky to tote around. I may try a transom-mounted electric motor and another battery, which would allow me to have two batteries under the mid-seat; that would be nice ballast as well as I will be sailing solo 90% of the time. What do you think?

Dana

[CCBB]

As some know I am giving and receiving training in high tech composites technology here in Maine and have access to a remarkable facility. One of my pet projects I am sketching out with the help of a couple composites gurus, is making a half-mold of a mast for a Goat Island Skiff. I would also aim to have this mast useful for other of my designs or other boats that can be potentially retro-fitted for use with a balance lug (with a mizzen of course!).

The rough procedure is to make a plug -- or perhaps use an actual mast if the same dimensions apply to a CF mast -- and to lay-up a fiberglass mold with flanges around the plug. There is a lot to work out there. With the half-mold the carbon would lay inside the mold and wrap up onto a temporary inside flange. The whole bit would be vacuum bagged and infused with epoxy resin. Two halves would be made and glued together along the inside flange. This is about as far as I've gotten!

It is clear that an key early decision is what are the ideal dimensions of a carbon mast? That one is for Mik. If the ideal diameters and taper are different, I'd make a separate dedicated plug for the mold, which is preferable anyway.

By the way, I plan to make the B'mouth first to get sailing. This project is for next winter!

Clint

[keyhavenpotter]

Clint, I have been using 50% carbon / 50% glass spars on my lug rig for three full seasons.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3065/2789435389_b9be67bd0b.jpg?v=0

It is well worth while. The very light spars are a delight to raise and use. My tubes have no holes in them at all, so good buoyancy can be kept.

There is one big difference though. Wood and alloy spars can be stiff from first loading, whereas carbon is different. It seams to bend easily at first and then stiffens up as a bend develops, just as a windsurf mast is always set with lots of prebend. This can affect light wind sail setting, then as wind increases the yard works very well. Boom seems to develop a lot of bend, as does the mast in strong winds.

My sail is smaller than the Goat, and uses 50mm mast and boom tubes, with a 40mm to 20mm tapered yard. The specs can be seen here, which might help,

http://carbonfibretubes.co.uk/standard.html

If I were to order again I would probably spec an extra wrap of carbon to stiffen some what.

They also look cool.

Brian

[Boatmik]

The new birdsmouth option for the mast will solve many of the issues (as does the hollow square mast option). Both approximately halve the weight of the original solid mast.

The hollow square mast is in the plan and the birdsmouth option is available free from me.

Best wishes
Michael

[CCBB]

So, is a carbon fiber Goat mast a worthy project to consider with the training, resources, and motivation to make one from scratch? i.e., Mik wouldn't a CF spar still be superior to a b'mouth or square hollow. I'm lifting this square hollow spruce mast for the Goat I am building and thinking it is pretty hefty. A carbon equivalent would be sensationally lighter. So, I will be curious to know how to size it. I noted Brian's thoughts.

[Boatmik]

Howdy Clint,

I think a carbon stick is a worthy project. Just wanted to make sure that following readers understood it was an option rather than something required.

MIK

[CCBB]

I have again tweaked the rig for the yawl and am happier every time. I raked the mizzen further fwd. and the mast a hair aft and it looks SO MUCH better.

Mik, I have been doing this on a fairly accurately scaled drawing about 3/8" = 1' and wondered if you had a way to accurately measure the rake for the spars. I usually do that at more like a 1" = 1' scale. Do you think I should just scale it off this small drawing or try to loft it out larger?

Another Q: the aft tank is set pretty low to use as a mizzen partner...do you think I should raise the aft tank a little higher to better brace the mizzen, which is about 9' tall.

Cheers,
Clint

[Boatmik]

Shoot me you latest PDF or jpg and I will have a closer look.

Spars often don't need a lot of bury because the decks can take almost any amount of side load.

If you measure the rake by vertical distance vs horizontal distance over the length of the spar that will set up ok for step vs partner taking measurements off the bulkhead or whatever.

Good old trig.

By the way .. don't get too worried about sorting the mast rake ... the sail outline is by far the dominant shape

[CCBB]

The mizzen is only 14 SF. Enough sail area?

The mizzen has been raked up (and the mast raked maybe an inch aft) but any more the CE shifts forward a bit much and the mast will need to get raked more to compensate.

Looks better though doesn't it?

The other big Q is whether the low aft tank will support the mizzen (about 9' tall).

Clint

[Boatmik]

Howdy,

Looks OK. Whether it is big enough depends on your Centre of Effort calculation to make sure it lands about the right position relative to the centreboard. I definitely would not want the centre of effort to be further forward than the original boat ... balance is about right and can be adjusted with small fore and aft adjustments in the sail if one is so moved.

So don't want it creeping forward.

Providing the gluing of partner and step is good and an adequate bonding area the tank top and bottom will have no problem with the lateral forces. I think I mentioned how they can glue to the transom, the underside of the deck and the centreline stiffeners for the deck.

I don't know if the Aesthetics have really changed much. But it is in the eye of the beholder. I think it will be fine and am really more concerned about the tech side.

Best wishes
Michael

[CCBB]

TX, Mik, I am more concerned about aesthetics than the tech side, meaning there will be good timber and good glue joints to back up the tank and mizzen. The original CE and new CE are in line. Thanks for looking.

Clint

[CCBB]

Well, Here is a Photoshop rendering of Xing Fu, my GIS Yawl. She'll retain the original step for sailing sans mizzen.

I named here because of the happiness of getting our daughter from China which happens in a couple weeks. We have been extremely busy with adoption paperwork. I've been starting up my business and feeling pretty successful. Part of plan is to offer Goat kits, spars, and complete boats for the Goat and rowboat (the kids will continue to do the rowboat next year though a Goat may be used as the project, too). I intend to have Xing Fu at the Wooden Boat show next year. This past year was my first Show and a very good one having won an award for my rowboat, Drake. In the works, too, is a 1947 Flying Fifteen that I will be restoring also for display at the Show. I've also just injured my neck which pushes off my work load some. Lots going on!

I have all the parts cut for my Goat, a stave taper jig ready to go for producing Birdsmouth spar kits, and spar halves for a yard and boom. Most likely in September at this point is when I will dry fit the boat, finalize my patterns, and begin glueing the boat together. I have to time it right so I can also work on the FF.

With my bumb neck, my website will be getting well up to date this week. Feel free to check it out.

Cheers,
Clint

[MiddleAgesMan]

Very nice, Clint.

BTW--Weight is listed as 1300 lb but I can't see a mizzen adding that much weight... ;)

[CCBB]

Fixed it, thanks.

Clint

[woodeneye]

Very interesting Clint. Did you have to alter the dagger board casing/slot position at all to compensate for the mizzen? The reason I ask is that the mast and casing appear to be in the same position and wouldn't some adjustment be necessary to counter the extra w/helm? It looks better than I thought it would!

maybe you can balance the mizzen with a jib on a bowsprit :U Pics please:2tsup:

[CCBB]

Bruce the mast is stepped forward of BHD #1 to account for the shift in the CE. The CE shift is small since the mizzen is small and you don't account for all of the sail are of the mizzen (I used 60% of the 15 or so square feet). So the original step is preserved and you have the choice of two steps. When I build the boat, I'll have pictures that will show a box, in which the mast will be stepped, built off the forward face of BHD #1. There will be a similar structure built off the transom for stepping the mizzen into the tank. So they tanks stay sealed off.

--Clint

[woodeneye]

Bruce the mast is stepped forward of BHD #1 to account for the shift in the CE. The CE shift is small since the mizzen is small and you don't account for all of the sail are of the mizzen (I used 60% of the 15 or so square feet). So the original step is preserved and you have the choice of two steps. When I build the boat, I'll have pictures that will show a box, in which the mast will be stepped, built off the forward face of BHD #1. There will be a similar structure built off the transom for stepping the mizzen into the tank. So they tanks stay sealed off.

--Clint

Gotcha! Thanks Clint.

[CCBB]

Hey gang. Thought I'd drop in and give an update on the GIS Yawl project. A lot is happening to delay the project. The parts are made. But my space is full of paying work right now. I am no longer with Compass Project (laid off). My co-workers are running a few programs, but my programs have no funding. So I am forced to go full time into boatbuilding much sooner than I thought! I have some work, oars, a sail rig, a Beetle Cat restoration. I need more! I will spend some time kitting out my Drake Rowboat () in time for the WoodenBoat Small Boats magazine to come out (hint, hint: I'll leave you in suspense for what might be featured in there!). Plans will be inked and offered up for good. I am building a couple prams for a family. Other than that I plan to make some 7 1/2' oars for Drake, 9' oars like the ones in MIK's GIS plan, and I really hope I can sneak in a GIS build.

But the big competitor for that time now...drum roll....is a newly aqcuired Uffa Fox Flying Fifteen (FF) from '49 in superb condition and in my driveway for a complete restoration (www.flyingfifteenfrolic.blogspot.com). She has original Sitka mast and boom, Egyptian COttom sails in fine condition, and all hardware original. I own her with a relative-in-law who I respect greatly, who is suffering from MS, and who is responsible for getting me into boatbuilding, a life changing event for me. So this is a special project. The plan is to get her looking shiny and new again and to the Wooden Boat Show next June.

But I still hope to sneak in a Goat somehow. Do people think a really nicely built Goat would sell? My concern, honestly, is that most people would build there own rather than pay top dollar for a professionally built boat. Would a Goat fetch 8,9, 10K...would someone pay that for a sailing skiff? If the answer is no, it will be hard taking time to do it when I can be on paying work. Anyway, that is my dilemma, I am broke, needing all the work I can get, but still very much need a way to get on the water in the rare, occasional morning, row out to find some wind, and sail.

Any thoughts on my dilemma would be great. Any body who needs a nice set of oars or spars or a boat or know of anyone that does, please let me know. My website show what I can do: www.clintchaseboatbuilder.com. I am in a tight spot...normally I wouldn't directly self promote like this on any Forum, but I am in need here. It could be worse, I try to remind myself.

Cheers,
Clint

[Boatmik]

Does the FF have all the original fittings. Would love to see the detailed pics of those. Might be just as remarkable as the ones I took of an antique 505 (about '61) a while ago.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/boatmik/sets/72157604523269212/

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3284/2412402380_4d2bf65fc7.jpg

[Joost]

Hello Clint,

Interesting question: what kind of boats would people be interested in to have built for them by a professional boat builder.

Personally I am thinking of the following:
- not too complicated tenders (like the prams you are mentioning) as these are relatively inexpensive, with the benefit of having the boat professionally built at a high standard. And this kind of boats likely form a large part of the total number of wooden boats built anyway.
- complicated larger boats (glued clinker and such) that require more detailed and complicated work (like your beautiful Drake) that people cannot imagine being able to build themselves at a decent standard.
- boats intended for racing.
- complicated parts like oars, spars and foils (especially repair jobs and such).
- outboard motored fishing boats!

I am not sure whether people would consider a boat building professional for bigger but construction wise simpler sail boats like the GIS. Most people would probably consider such a boat within their capabilities and/or might not think that it would be worth the price tag of a professional build (please note that I fully appreciate that the builder should be allowed to earn a decent income).

In other words: I think it more likely that people would spend 12K on Drake than 9K on a GIS.

Is MIK aware of any of his designs built by professional boat builders for clients?

I wish you the best with your business and hope that it will thrive!

Best regards,

Joost

[woodeneye]

Hi Clint

I don't see any reason that the Goat would not be successful built commercially. Most people don't believe they have the skills to build any sort of boat. The Goat's advantage is that, properly set up, you can churn them out relatively quickly and easily have more than one on the go at a time.

Personally, I think a nicely turned out Goat like you can do, would be quite a hit at a a market day type of event. Woodie type shows you need to spruik the more traditional planked type of boats.

[CCBB]

I'll be getting more detail shots of the FF. I have a bunch, just need to get them up.

Thanks for thoughts Joost, Bruce. I think it would be worth trying to get it built by March and put it out at the local, and very popular, Boatbuilder's Show. I can put a price on it, too. That will be the hard part. If I can't sneak it into the flow of work, then we'll never know. I think your observations are spot on, about the foils and pars, rig, etc. being good things to market and I am doing just that. Trying anyway.

Clint

[Daddles]

Is MIK aware of any of his designs built by professional boat builders for clients?

Have a look at the thread about the Rowing Skiff built at Duck Flats :wink:

Richard

[DALukens]

Clint:

Give me a call on my cell. Let's talk. 207.671.9433.

Dana

[CCBB]

Good one Richard, that was definitely professionally built. Thinking about Joost's points, the plan is to supply people with kits and I'm juts wondering if there aren't a couple guys walking around the Show in March that would be taken by a highly finished (painted hull, varnish on g'wales type finish, but very smooth) Goat with that beautiful lug up, and a sign that says, "you can build this boat"....then I can tell them how I can help by making spars and oars while they put together their kit. Maybe...

I'd call you now, Dana, but it is 5:30am!

Clint

[Watermaat]

Hey gang. Thought I'd drop in and give an update on the GIS Yawl project. A lot is happening to delay the project. The parts are made. But my space is full of paying work right now. I am no longer with Compass Project (laid off). My co-workers are running a few programs, but my programs have no funding. So I am forced to go full time into boatbuilding much sooner than I thought! I have some work, oars, a sail rig, a Beetle Cat restoration. I need more! I will spend some time kitting out my Drake Rowboat () in time for the WoodenBoat Small Boats magazine to come out (hint, hint: I'll leave you in suspense for what might be featured in there!). Plans will be inked and offered up for good. I am building a couple prams for a family. Other than that I plan to make some 7 1/2' oars for Drake, 9' oars like the ones in MIK's GIS plan, and I really hope I can sneak in a GIS build.

But the big competitor for that time now...drum roll....is a newly aqcuired Uffa Fox Flying Fifteen (FF) from '49 in superb condition and in my driveway for a complete restoration (www.flyingfifteenfrolic.blogspot.com (http://www.flyingfifteenfrolic.blogspot.com)). She has original Sitka mast and boom, Egyptian COttom sails in fine condition, and all hardware original. I own her with a relative-in-law who I respect greatly, who is suffering from MS, and who is responsible for getting me into boatbuilding, a life changing event for me. So this is a special project. The plan is to get her looking shiny and new again and to the Wooden Boat Show next June.

But I still hope to sneak in a Goat somehow. Do people think a really nicely built Goat would sell? My concern, honestly, is that most people would build there own rather than pay top dollar for a professionally built boat. Would a Goat fetch 8,9, 10K...would someone pay that for a sailing skiff? If the answer is no, it will be hard taking time to do it when I can be on paying work. Anyway, that is my dilemma, I am broke, needing all the work I can get, but still very much need a way to get on the water in the rare, occasional morning, row out to find some wind, and sail.

Any thoughts on my dilemma would be great. Any body who needs a nice set of oars or spars or a boat or know of anyone that does, please let me know. My website show what I can do: www.clintchaseboatbuilder.com (http://www.clintchaseboatbuilder.com). I am in a tight spot...normally I wouldn't directly self promote like this on any Forum, but I am in need here. It could be worse, I try to remind myself.

Cheers,
Clint

Hi Clint,

Just to give you my thougts if it is of any help. But I am not a professional boatbuilder and live in a quite different area ( Netherlands ) .

Having seen Joost's GIS ( very nice brightwork and paintjob ) it certainly looks great and will have a lot of attention in the market. But as you know: many people love to see wooden boats, few of them want to have one and even fewer want to spend lots of money to buy them.

There is a different market for buyers and builders of GIS. Buyers are looking for something exclusive fitting their "image" and still usefull as a boat. They want to spend some extra money on this, even when there are cheaper ( mass produced ) alternatives available.
Amateur builder are looking for a simpel and relatively low cost design with little risk.

For buyers GIS has the advantage over competition of being light-weight ( you can store it hanging on a garage ceiling ) just big enough to be an adult boat ( lots of affordable wooden dinghies are more kids boats ) and not to big and heavy to become a hand-full ( as many slightly bigger designs are ) You probably could put a relatively low price-tag on it, comparing to smaller lapstrake dinghies. And a much lower price-tag comparing to any f.e. 19ft Oughtred.

For professional building GIS has the advantage of being simpel and quick to build ( much quicker than f.e. an Oughtred lapstrake design ) with very little parts that you need to build ( Spars, foils and oars) or supply to complete ( mainly the sail and a few blocks and ropes ) . I personally would skip the Yawl version and build a nice looking standard version first. Keep it simpel and affordable ( I do not think people want to spend that much more on a Yawl ) and use available and mostly very positive internet "marketing" ( All of them are standard GIS ). Use a lot of nice varnished brightwork and spray-paint the hull in white ( needs to look as glossy as new GRP hulls ) .

For potential amateur builders you could supply prebuild parts ( oars, spars, foils ) or hulls in any stage ( so they could do the labour intensive work of sanding and finishing themselves ). This probably helps some potential builders to get started.

Perhaps you could borrow a nice build GIS for this next show to get some feeling of interest.

And sorry I do not have any work for you :C I am one of those people who are in a professional builder's bad dream....I always think I can do a better job with less money :U

But I wish you really good luck! It's great that somebody wants to keep these skills and wooden boats alive.

[CCBB]

Thanks for the thoughts, Watermaat. I think you are right on all points. And I agree I'd market the boat as what the designer intended. The yawl is my thing. Though I think others will find it appealing eventually, especially for Raid type use.

Here is the standard Goat.

[Watermaat]

I am shure GIS yawl version will be a nice "option" for potential customers. But first I would invest in building your standard version as "show" model.
Joost and I have also discussed the opportunity of a stretched GIS ( 15%longer not wider or higher ) with 2 rowing seats, using same rig and foils as standard version.
This will probably be a potential dualhanded Raid winner !

[Joost]

And the best thing of the stretched design is (if you already have a standard GIS) that you only need to build the hull!

The next Raid Caledonia is planned for 2011, so we have some time to think out the details. :D

Joost

[CCBB]

I think the stretched Goat would be a worthwhile thing to do.

If I build the Goat I am making it a Yawl. To not do so would be a waste of my time. Remember, the only thing that would look different is the extra mast partners. The boat will still be STANDARD with the option of adding the mizzen. I would SHOW it as a standard.

[keyhavenpotter]

Clint, for what it's worth here is my experience of selling wooden boats. It's tough. As already said, people love them but are afraid to own them. They do not know about how effective epoxy sealed hulls are or the modern two part paints and varnishes.

I have sold a Coot, a Gannet, and a MacGregor. All took ages to sell, all reduced considerably to sell and all not far off material cost, two well below. Oughtred designs have the highest value. Even so a beautiful example of an Acorn with trailer and canvas cover only sold for £1700 recently, which could only have been material cost if that.

On the other hand, Lymington River Scows which are very low maintenance, GRP hulls with oiled teak fit out sell really well at £7500 all in. Hugely popular around here. http://www.johnclaridgeboats.com/lymingtonscow.htm

So, very tough with all wooden boat, but somehow an low maintenace version of an old design with strong heritage sells well.

Somehow though the wooden boat builders survive. Here is an impressive list of UK wooden boat builders. Have a look at their sites and see what they are up to. http://www.wbta.co.uk/members/default.asp?v=2&s=1

It does seem to me that building a boat which is purpose designed for new builders like the Goat seems a risky choice. Don't you have to build something they just cannot believe they could build themselves?

Drake looks a beauty to me. Never mind selling plans and trying to compete with Mr Oughtred, how about setting up to build 4 at a time as efficiently as possible and supplying complete boats or completed hulls only? Make her exclusive and desirable. People have the money! Take a mould off the hull and copy John Claridge? Swallow Boats in the UK produce both wooden, in kit or built and grp versions of the same designs and it seems to work for them.

http://www.swallowboats.co.uk/

As a rider I should add I know nothing and am currently experiencing complete failure in my life!!

Brian