Another first build

[chrisb691]

Hi All.

I've been lurking for a long time, and been fascinated by what you guys are doing. I've always thougt I'd love to build a CNC
router, but considered it beyond me. However, I stumbled across buildyourncnc.com, and having watched the guy build one in his bedroom, and use the bath tub as a router table, I decided I must be able to build my own.

I looked at various plans on the internet, and decided to buy a set from buildyourcnc.com. I figured an mdf machine was a good starting point, and this particular machine looked as if would be buildable for me.

10 days later. the plans, plus a dvd, arrived. These comprised of 17 A3 drawings, and 73 mpeg files on the dvd. A quick review of the plans suggested that they were good quality. and a look at a couple of the mpeg files, indicated that they would be extremely helpfull in the construction, even though they were obviously very amateur.

Unfortunately. I got sick, and they sat here for over three months whilst I was unable to work in the shed. Last weekend I made a start, and got some more time in this weekend. It's going to be buildable, but some parts are going to be made more than once as I nut out some problems.

What problems can there be, I hear you say. Well where do I start. First up, the drawings aren't as good as I thought. There are 'hanging' dimensions. ie. they go from a specific point, and end up in the
middle of no-where. I can only assume that they are the result of design changes, where old dimensions haven't been cleaned up. Then there are dimensions that would be easy if your were using a cnc, but are downright awkward doing them manually. For instance, I find drilling holes at 6 25/32" centres to be problematic to say the least. The workaround, is to drill a
little oversize, to try and compensate for inacuracy.

A fairly significant issue, is building an imperial design in a metric country. I have opted to cut to imperial measurements, and not try to convert to metric. But figuring out the compensation needed, can be a challenge, hence the need to remake parts as I proceed along. For instance, the plans are based around 3/4" mdf, and I am using 16mm. He's using 3/4"
aluminium angle, and I've got 20mm. It's not insurmountable, but there certainly is a bit of "oh crap" going on. Then there are the silly errors, like using the wrong side of the ruler and marking off 5/10 ths, instead of 5/8 ths. :-

Overall, the plans detail the mdf parts, and nothing else. Without having seen one of these before, some things are only becoming obvious as I get sub-assembles done. But mdf is pretty cheap, and there is no value associated with my time. So I intend to continue to build, and to replace parts as it becomes neccesary. Eventually, I'll end up with the best machine that I can currently build, and will learn a lot along the way. I will then use this one, to build the next one.............crap! I'm already
addicted. :D

I'm not concerning myself with the electronics yet, and will leave these until last. I'm doing a fair bit of research, and starting to get an understanding. But I will be asking a lot of questions further down the track....... before I do any ordering.

The pic shows the z axis, plus part of the Y axis assembly. I will be using all-thread on this machine, and still have to decide what to use for nuts.

[snowyskiesau]

As my first machine is going to be based on the earlier design from buildyourcnc.com (http://buildyourcnc.com),
I'll be watching your thread with interest.
While I have purchased some ballscrews, my first attempt will be with allthread. I have a couple of 1M lengths of 12mm allthread so this will set the size of the build.

[crocky]

Hi Chris,

Seems like a good place to start, the outside bbq is making a good place to take your photo's too :)

There are heaps of us here so you should have no trouble with your questions.

[Ch4iS]

18 mill would be closer to 3/4" as its 19.01mm

Looking good so far.


I did read over his site when looking to build a cnc machine and he makes it seem so simple when he does it.

I opted to wing it and I have a thread here also :D


I remember reading someone using Nylon as a nut, I bought some when my local bearing mob was flogging off the offcuts, seems like it would do if you had the proper thread for the threaded rods. But Delrin I think its called is spose to be the bees knees, never seen nor used the stuff.

[chrisb691]

18 mill would be closer to 3/4" as its 19.01mm

Looking good so far.


I did read over his site when looking to build a cnc machine and he makes it seem so simple when he does it.

I opted to wing it and I have a thread here also :D


I remember reading someone using Nylon as a nut, I bought some when my local bearing mob was flogging off the offcuts, seems like it would do if you had the proper thread for the threaded rods. But Delrin I think its called is spose to be the bees knees, never seen nor used the stuff.
Hi blue^ray,

I agree 18mm is closer, but 16mm was a lot easier to get (ie Bunnings). It's going to need making adjustments, no matter what size is used if it isn't 3/4".

Delrin is a brand-name for an engineering plastic called Polyacetal....more commonly known as just acetal. It's readily available, and easily machinable.

I've got some 50mm acetal rod, and am considering a 2 part spring loaded nut as an anti-backlash mechanism. I suspect it should work okay.

[Ch4iS]

Hi blue^ray,

I agree 18mm is closer, but 16mm was a lot easier to get (ie Bunnings). It's going to need making adjustments, no matter what size is used if it isn't 3/4".

Delrin is a brand-name for an engineering plastic called Polyacetal....more commonly known as just acetal. It's readily available, and easily machinable.

I've got some 50mm acetal rod, and am considering a 2 part spring loaded nut as an anti-backlash mechanism. I suspect it should work okay.


lol you know more than me :P

18mm is the largest they stock at my local.


Would love to see how that anti-backlash mechanism works out :D

Is the Delrin/acetel expencive?

[chrisb691]

lol you know more than me :P

18mm is the largest they stock at my local.


Would love to see how that anti-backlash mechanism works out :D

Is the Delrin/acetel expencive?
40mm dia acetal rod X 500mm long at $28+ from this (http://www.oztion.com.au/myauctions/offcuts-galore.aspx) guy. :) Just search his store for 'acetal'.

EDIT: He's also listing under 'Delrin'.

[snowyskiesau]

40mm dia acetal rod X 500mm long at $28+ from this (http://www.oztion.com.au/myauctions/offcuts-galore.aspx) guy. :) Just search his store for 'acetal'.

EDIT: He's also listing under 'Delrin'.

I can highly recommend offcuts_galore (George). I've bought bits of black delrin for only a few dollars. I've also bought lots of aluminium plate and round bits from him.

[seafurymike]

Good start there Chris,

Have you worked out how your going to drive it?

/M

[chrisb691]

Good start there Chris,

Have you worked out how your going to drive it?

/M

It's a bit premature yet, as I haven't discussed options with anyone yet. I'm leaning towards a xylotex 3 axis kit, with 269oz steppers. I would think a breakout board as well. However, I will listen very hard to any advice offered.

This one will be running 1/2" allthread (maybe with dampeners).

[chrisb691]

2nd axis starting to look okay. However, the whole imperial to metric issue, is a mega PITA. :oo:

[chrisb691]

Just realised that I didn't attcah the picture to my last post, so here it is in pic1.

Got the table constructed this weekend so fairly happy with myself, which is more than can be said of SWMBO. Table size is 900 x 450.

I've decided to go with 1/2" allthread on X & Y, and 3/8" on Z. If anyone can see a problem with this, please yell out.

[snowyskiesau]

And I thought my poor Triton Mk III was a bit beaten up!

Looking good so far.

[chrisb691]

And I thought my poor Triton Mk III was a bit beaten up!

Looking good so far.
The MK3 had it's 27th birthday last March. :)

[chrisb691]

Had a quick play on the lathe, and mocked up an anti backlash nut. It's made of acetal, and is in 2 parts with a spring between. The part on the right is the actual nut, and then the other one is screwed up until you get a bit of spring resistance. The nut and bolt is to stop the rear part unscrewing, and I need to come up with a better solution to this.

Even with a fair bit of spring pressure dialed in, it still turns very freely on the allthread. Seems like a good possibilty, if I take a bit more care with it.

The pics not the best, but the camera had real problems trying to focus with the black acetal.

[snowyskiesau]

I was just going to use two hex nuts separated by a spring (12mm all thread)
Would the alcatel/delrin you've used make a big difference?

[chrisb691]

I was just going to use two hex nuts separated by a spring (12mm all thread)
Would the alcatel/delrin you've used make a big difference?
Hmm. Theoretically, the acetal should give a smoother operation. Whether this is noticeable is a moot point.

How are you going to setup your 2 nuts, and spring? I'm intrigued as to how you are going to stop the free nut from rotaitng away from the secured one.

[appiwood]

Hello Geoff

Another option is to almost cut the nut in 1/2 the put a bolt in to squeeze the top and bottom of the nut together, you can adjust the tension on the bolt to get no backlash and if not to tight no binding, I have broken up the machine and don't have any better photos, the nut in the photo is one and is cut about 2/3 of the way through.

Ed

[Aussie_Mick]

Hi,

With regards to the backlash I have heard of people using the Delrin but with a tweak. What they do is to thread it onto a piece of scrap thread rod, then using a blow torch heat the rod so as the heat transfer back to the delrin.

What this does is that it causes the delrin to melt down into the grooves thus eliminating backlash.:U Just don't get the torch to close and don't over heat.:o

Regards, Mick

[twistedfuse]

Only problem with the heat treatment method is that it will only make the nut suit that piece of the threaded rod. Threaded rod varies dramatically in thread pitch so a nut idea with a spring/pressure nut should work best for all purposes and remove most of the backlash along the full length of the threaded rod.

Daniel
P.S Geoff, i would use 16mm threaded as 12 will whip and its harder to find one that is close to straight. just my thought

[twistedfuse]

Out of the blue, if your looking for something different try this method, ive heard its not too bad.
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13593&page=2

The whole thread is a good read.

Daniel

[rodm]

If you are going to use Delrin then de-burr your rod and take all the sharp shoulders of the thread using a wire brush on a grinder. A sharp thread will cut the thread out of you nut.
Another hint is to stick your Delrin in the freezer overnight before cutting the threads.
I used a Delrin nut on my first machine and without trying to discourage anybody you will probably swap it out like I did for a ballscrew. Now that you can get ballscrews for just over $100 I don't think you are going to save much over an Acme thread and Delrin nut anyway.
If you want to see how to make a self adjusting Delrin nut then have a look here.
http://www.dumpstercnc.com/
His stuff is good and probably not worth making at those prices.

[chrisb691]

If you are going to use Delrin then de-burr your rod and take all the sharp shoulders of the thread using a wire brush on a grinder. A sharp thread will cut the thread out of you nut.
Another hint is to stick your Delrin in the freezer overnight before cutting the threads.
I used a Delrin nut on my first machine and without trying to discourage anybody you will probably swap it out like I did for a ballscrew. Now that you can get ballscrews for just over $100 I don't think you are going to save much over an Acme thread and Delrin nut anyway.
If you want to see how to make a self adjusting Delrin nut then have a look here.
http://www.dumpstercnc.com/
His stuff is good and probably not worth making at those prices.
I agree totally. However, this build is using allthread, and is my learning curve. Once I get this going properly, and have had most of my 'OOPS' moments, I will use this to cut the next one which will use something other than allthread. I haven't looked that far ahead yet.

Meanwhile, I have the third axis. :D

[chrisb691]

I bit the bullet tonight, and ordered my electronics. I ended up buying the complete 4 axis kit from Xylotex, with the 425oz steppers. The drop in the exchange rate was a bit hurtful, but I didn't think that waiting, and hoping for an improvement, was going to do much good.

I have no immediate plans for the fourth axis, but thought it wise to get it in case. At least I'll have a spare driver, and spare stepper.

Now the wait begins..........patience....patience. :D

[rodm]

Hi Chris,
He ships promptly so you will not have too long to wait.
Machine is looking good and your workmanship is clean and tight from the photos. :2tsup:

[snowyskiesau]

Chris,
You're putting me to shame. I've still to cut any MDF as yet!
At least I can see how my first attempt should look :)

In my defense, I've been a bit side tracked in getting new work lined up. With that out of
the way, I no longer have an excuse.

I'm trying to decide which are the best steppers to get to suit the build I'm doing (same design as yours) and the next build which, while still MDF, will have ballscrews.
Perhaps I should start a new thread about choosing stepper motors.

[chrisb691]

Hi Chris,
He ships promptly so you will not have too long to wait.
Machine is looking good and your workmanship is clean and tight from the photos. :2tsup:
It's amazing how you can fix bad workmanship with photoshop. :D



<snip>
I'm trying to decide which are the best steppers to get to suit the build I'm doing (same design as yours) and the next build which, while still MDF, will have ballscrews.
Perhaps I should start a new thread about choosing stepper motors.
That subject confused the poo out of me, and the more I read the more confused I got. I got this explanation from the Xylotex FAQ.....and then I tossed a coin. :- Well almost. My decision was based on the fact that 1/2" BSW is 12TPI, so I figured that it was closer to the recommendation. The next build will be with greater precision leadscrews with lower TPI, so I think the 425oz ones will be correct then.

11) Which motors would be best for my router?
If you are using high pitch leadscrews (15 to 20 tpi) then the 269's would be the recommended choice. If you are using lower pitch screws, like 5 tpi ballscrews, then the 425's would be the better choice. If you have ~10 tpi screws, the 269's will give better rapids, but lower low-speed torque. The 425's will give more low-speed torque, but slower rapids.

[rodm]

For homemade machines it is just too difficult to work out exactly what motor matches your machine so you have to generalise. There are too many variables in a hand fabricated machine - things like drag, weight of different components, screws, bearings, etc.
I think the Xylotex statement is as good as you need to follow on motor choice.

[snowyskiesau]

I'd decided that 270 oz-in motors would be enough for what I'm intending to build, and probably for the next machine as well.
I'm now looking at the motor ratings to find ones that best suit the Gecko G250's I already have.
Hopefully, this (http://www.linengineering.com/flash/Calculator.swf) will help.

[chrisb691]

Hi Chris,
He ships promptly so you will not have too long to wait.
Machine is looking good and your workmanship is clean and tight from the photos. :2tsup:

You're not wrong about his promptness, I just got an email saying the gear is on it's way. WooHoo!!

[Ch4iS]

Bravo, nice clean cuts, looking good unlike my first attempt at building a MDF cnc router (Pictures burned)

I wish I had bought the 425's but I originally had a small build in plan then it got bigger and bigger.

[chrisb691]

I ordered my electronics, and motors, from Xylotex on Sunday 28th September, and they arrived today. That is really great service. :2tsup:

[chrisb691]

Got back into the shed today, after 3 weeks waiting for parts, and assorted home duties. Got the leadscrews fitted to X & Y, and had some drill induced movement. Boy isn't that a buzz, when you finally get movement. :) Working on the Z leadscrew now, and will hopefully have that installed tomorrow.

I ordered a C10 break out board from CNC4PC, and a MACH3 license while I was at it. I've also bought a second parrallel port for the PC I'll be using, and given it a RAM boost. Now I need to find some limit switches.

I haven't thought much about how to run the cables yet, but I don't think I'll have room for e-track. Guess I'll face that one as I get to it.

[Ch4iS]

I haven't thought much about how to run the cables yet, but I don't think I'll have room for e-track. Guess I'll face that one as I get to it.


I just used some of this spiral plastic cable management stuff when I did my wiring, it is stiff enough to stay off the table and bends easily, I'll have some pics in my thread when I get my camera back.

[chrisb691]

I just used some of this spiral plastic cable management stuff when I did my wiring, it is stiff enough to stay off the table and bends easily, I'll have some pics in my thread when I get my camera back.
Thanks blue^ray, that's a damm good idea.

[Ch4iS]

Thanks blue^ray, that's a damm good idea.


Just got the cam for some pictures and the batteries died on me.


I've got a good idea for an invention "the corded camera"

[chrisb691]

Had a heavy weekend of working in the shed, and Boris is born. I've had movement on all 3 axis, using the battery drill as a motor, and all seem to be reasonable happy. When I went to install the z axis motor, I found that I had 'lost' the spider for the coupling. 2 hours of cleaning the shed floor later I found it. Still in it's plastic bag, on the shelf. Bloody stupid place for it to be, but I now have a clean floor. :D

The next bit of effort, is going into the pc and software. I've also got to source my limit switches. So no great progress going to happen over the next couple of weeks.

I've also got to make something to put it on, and to hold the pc and related gear. Um. Well thats going to be a challenge, as Boris is currently living on my MK3, which I need to build the stand. :doh:

[Greolt]

Looking good Chris. Not far to go now. :2tsup:

Glad to see there are others with sheds in a similar state of tidiness to mine. :U

Greg

[crocky]

Looks good :)

[chrisb691]

I setup the pc tonight, and connected everything up. Had my first Mach3 controlled movements, on all axis.

WOOHOO!!!!! :fireworks:

Still got to tune everything, and haven't got limits or E-stop.....but it works.

[rodm]

Onya Chris
You probably have what we refer to as the silly CNC grin on your face. Wear it proudly and it lasts a week. :D
It is a massive project and learning curve you have accomplished and time to reflect and enjoy the moment.
Machine looks great by the way

[Greolt]

Well done Chris. :U:2tsup::U

Pics are good, movie is better.:)

Greg

[crocky]

Still got to tune everything, and haven't got limits or E-stop.....but it works.

Mine has been going over 12 months and I still have not got e-stop or limits :) it can come later :2tsup:

Good Show :)

[twistedfuse]

Well done, it is a momentus occasion. Im sure you have tyhe warm and fuzzies inside.

I agree with bob on the limits, plus you can setup soft limits within mach 3. Mine is the same, been over a year and still no limit switches. Although on the E Stop, i would highly recommend it. I have used mine not so much in emergency but in case of(Especially when i wasn't sure if it would clear my clamps). Every day that you dont use it, is a day closer to when you will. They are very simple to setup(both Estop and Limits) on the boards, but i would definately recommend an Estop, they are the easiest and safest. Dont waste your time and effort saying to yourself why didn't i set it up. You'll laugh at how simple it is to wire any push button into an estop config. Just shows you dont need a fancy E Stop too.

Well done again, and look forward to seeing the videos and pictures of your creations.

Daniel

[WillyInBris]

Congratulations Chris, good to see another machine on the board :2tsup:

Willy

[Aussie_Mick]

Chris

Well done and the pics look good.:2tsup:

I have the plans for this and have started cutting my components. I have thought about it and re-designed the table to be a vaccumm table.

How did you ga at converting the plans to metric. I have done most of them and even redrawn it in solidworks to make sure everything is right but there are some dimensions missing from the PDF's I got.

Congrats again on an excellent build.:U

Mick

[chrisb691]

Onya Chris
You probably have what we refer to as the silly CNC grin on your face. Wear it proudly and it lasts a week. :D
It is a massive project and learning curve you have accomplished and time to reflect and enjoy the moment.
Machine looks great by the way
Yup. A big sill grin indeed. The wife came home, and wanted to know why I had the 'silly smug' look on my face. :D


Well done Chris. :U:2tsup::U

Pics are good, movie is better.:)

Greg
You'll get a movie eventually.....just don't hold your breath in anticipation. It's going to be a whole new learning curve, and I'm not sure I can handle any more at the moment.


Chris

Well done and the pics look good.:2tsup:

I have the plans for this and have started cutting my components. I have thought about it and re-designed the table to be a vaccumm table.

How did you ga at converting the plans to metric. I have done most of them and even redrawn it in solidworks to make sure everything is right but there are some dimensions missing from the PDF's I got.

Congrats again on an excellent build.:U

Mick
I cut everything to the drawing sizes. ie imperial. The fiddling about came as a result of the differing aluminium sizes. I ended up with with the bearings too loose, so I kept skimming .6mm of each end of the cross pieces, until I got the correct fit. I just made sure that every was removed symmetrically. The worst problem I had, was that the nut holders were quite badly out of position. I still don't know how that happened, and I might pull it all down at some stage, and make new parts. I'll see how it all goes.

I went for this design, because it's the easiest to cut (I thought). But quite a few of the dimensions can only realistically be realised on a cnc.

Thanks to everyone else for the most kind comments, and suggestions. I'll see how this goes, but I'm reasonably sure that I'll use this to cut a Joes2006.

I don't like the way the z axis is cantilevered so far off the gantry, on this design. The weight caused the z to sag quite a bit, and it threw the router shaft out of square to the table. I had to skew the Y axis track to compensate.

[chrisb691]

Thanks to everyone, that have so freely given their assistance during my journey. Extra thanks go to Greg, who got X & Y sorted in my head, and saved me lots of hair.

It's been a mind stretching experience, and getting my head around everything has certainly been a challenge. I purchased Cut2D yesterday, and have now roughly figured it out. But, still lots to learn.

Cut my first piece this morning, and have got the silly grin back. Still need to fine tune things, but it all becomes easier to understand when you can see everything happening. I used a single flute 4mm cutter, which was less than ideal for the pocketing. But it did the job, allbeit a tad roughly.
:hpydans:

[rodm]

Great stuff Chris :2tsup:

My golden rule of CNC is to never de-mount the job from the table until you are satisfied with the job. Also keep your zero references on the machine - ie keep the driver board powered so you do not accidently move an axis.

Because of the accuracy and repeatability of these machines you can cut the job a thousand times and it will cut on the same toolpath. If you get a rough pocket then just cut it again. If that doesn't fix it then go down 0.1mm and cut it again.

To do this do an MDI move and then reset you DRO. eg if your Z height is 20 then open MDI and type in G0Z19.9 and hit enter (that is a G Zero). Go to your DRO for Z and retype 20 in the field and hit enter. What you have done is move the router down 0.1mm and the machine thinks everything is still the same. Practise this one before you do it a real job.

You will slightly distort the job with a deeper cut if you are using a V bit but it might save it from firewood.

I have saved quite a few jobs from disaster by re-cutting. Aluminum is prone to chatter and cutting the job twice vastly improves the surface finish.

[chrisb691]

Thanks Rod, I'll certainly remember that advice. I still need to get some more suitable cutters though. I'll be hunting some ball end, and V cutters.

Meanwhile, final test for today was the sample gears in Cut2D. 1/2" ply, a 3mm 2 flute cutter. I took 4mm passes, at 160 mm/min. It handled it quite well, so I'm pretty pleased. Cut time was just over 1hr.

I'm going to start looking closely at the Joe2006 plans, so that I can use this machine to cut it.........but that's down the track awhile.

[rodm]

From simple to complex is one easy step. :2tsup:

[chrisb691]

I tested accuracy today, by cutting a 50mm square, and 50mm circle. They were both accurate insofar as shape, in the the square was square and the circle was circular. However, both came out at 49mm.

I checked the cutter (a spiral), and it appears to be accurate. So I assume that I have to adjust the step settings to correct the cut sizes. If I multiply my current steps by 50/49 (1.20408), does this fix the problem. Or am I missing something.

[rodm]

I have never done it this way but it is logical. Try it and measure again - easy to change back if you need to.

[rodm]

I think you have a typo there - should be 1.0204

[chrisb691]

Thanks Rod. Yes it's a typo......yer get bloody dyslexia as you get older.:-

[chrisb691]

Gradually getting the machine in order. The table was about .75mm out, across the X axis. I couldn't see that I would be able to get it perfect by manipulation of the axis. So I cut in a pocket to the max XY dimensions, and glued in a 6mm mdf pad. I then machine this flat, and problem solved.

I set up a basic script, and pecked 5mm holes at 50mm centers, on both x and y. This allows me to use shelf supports, and get workpieces and jigs aligned. I have been fitting screw-in threaded inserts into the table, so that I can use them for clamps. Got about another 10 to fit, and then that's complete. I used the machine to cut some slotted clamps, and fitted them with a screw-in threaded insert a one end. This then got a coach bolt screwed in, which gives a good range of height adjustment. Seems to work well, and with the clamps and carpet tape, I think I can secure most work adequately.

Got my BOB boxed, and working, and installed limit/home switches to each axis. Since I've got inputs to spare, I wired them individually. FINALLY got them working properly. Had lots of adventures along the way, with my Z trying to bore it's way to China, and X nearly making it to Coburg. In other words, when I set them up everything was going in the wrong direction. The DRO's were were reading 1 way, but the axis were going the other. Went back to basics, and worked 1 axis at a time. I found that I had to change a jumper on the BOB, because the inputs were working opposite to what (I thought) I understood them to be. Then started to carefully reset the homing/limits, and the ports/pins, settings, until I got the first axis working properly. Okay! Okay! I actually tried every combination....until one worked. After that, the other two axis went reasonably well. It's quite a joy to press ref all, and the machine goes to home and zeros.

Also made up a touchpad, following Greg's instructions on cnczone. Using gauge blocks, I believe that I'm getting within .02mm over several iterations. This tool is going to be my most used tool, and is an absolute bloody marvel. Thanks Greg for detailing that so clearly. I did thank you on the zone, but you really did a nice job of explaining it. I strongly recommend this to all and sundry. It really is a joy. I ordered a laser cross hair, and will be fitting Greg's XY zeroing system as soon as I can.

I'm now reacquainting myself with autocad, and producing some drawings to feed to Cut2D. Boy oh boy, what a learning curve this project has turned out to be.

Jeeze life's good. :snopee:

[John H]

Nice work Chris!

Nothing like seeing the parts cut after designing them :2tsup:

I must get around to making a Z Zero touch plate myself. I considered a laser cross for XY Zero, but I have a USB camera that I'm going to use instead. Another job on the project list:doh: