Hare and Forbes HAFCO PD-22 Review

[Col]

Hi all, Col from Hoppers here.

I just thought that I would post my thoughts on the Hafco PD-22.

:((:((:((:((:no::no::no::no::((:((:((:((

I have been looking at getting a pedestal drill to replace my old Ryobi bench job that is over 20 years old. Sussed out a few at the various tool establishments and decided to go for the Hare and Forbes model. All I had looked at are either Chinese or Taiwanese these days and I had $550 to spend. Saw the PD-22 in the catalogue and decided it looked ok. Catalogue $519 Paid $499.

Drove 1.5 hours each way to get it. It came in a cardboard box about 90 kg. I stupidly did not open the box at the delivery point. Got it home and assembled it in about one hour. Covered in the usual oily gunk.

First impressions is that the castings are very rough. The table T slots are poorly cast. No matter how tight I tighten the table it still moves up and down 3 - 5 mm. I even resorted to tightening with a ring spanner on the tightening lever and waited for the casting to break but it still wobbles. Any ideas of accurate drilling are impossible. I also wanted to use it for mortising but it would be useless for that. Unless I had gallons of putty. The floor casting is thin and once bolted to the floor it still wobbles when pushed. Not solid or heavy duty as claimed. The safety switch under the lid for the pulley adjustment did not even come close to making contact so the machine would not go until I bent the contact with the multigrips. The picture in the catalogue has three chrome rods for the handle but mine came with a heavy black cast iron handle. Ugly as sin.

If you think that I am not too happy then you would be right. I took the punt on a Chinese machine and it serves me right. I got what I paid for though I thought $499 would get me a reasonable tool. I will be on the phone in the morning to discuss the return of the machine for a refund or to have the bodgey bits replaced with suitable parts. I don't like my chances but we will see.

I will post the follow up tomorrow night.

Col.

[mic-d]

Thanks Col, I've just started looking for a new drill press since mine has both shaft runout and the table is not perpendicular along a nonadjustable axis. Now I know to be careful of the H/F drill presses. Mines a Tradetools model.

Cheers
Michael

[routermaniac]

I also have a H&F drillpress, I am not sure if it is the same model as yours, I have been happy with it.

It did need some tuning to get it to run as good as it does now. I have also changed the chuck with a keyless one which also appears to have less runout. The table on mine is rock solid, does not move. I have used mine for drilling, morticing and even sanding with the wasp sander.

Certainly a good drill press for woodworking but I am not sure whether it would cut it for metalworking. BTW &F in my experience have been very helpful to deal with, try them and see how you go.

regards

M

[Col]

Hi all, Col from Hoppers here.

I just thought that I would post my thoughts on the Hafco PD-22.

:((:((:((:no::no::no::no::((:((:((

I have been looking at getting a pedestal drill to replace my old Ryobi bench job that is over 20 years old. Sussed out a few at the various tool establishments and decided to go for the Hare and Forbes model. All I had looked at are either Chinese or Taiwanese these days and I had $550 to spend. Saw the PD-22 in the catalogue and decided it looked ok. Catalogue $519 Paid $499.

Drove 1.5 hours each way to get it. It came in a cardboard box about 90 kg. I stupidly did not open the box at the delivery point. Got it home and assembled it in about one hour. Covered in the usual oily gunk.

First impressions is that the castings are very rough. The table T slots are poorly cast. No matter how tight I tighten the table it still moves up and down 3 - 5 mm. I even resorted to tightening with a ring spanner on the tightening lever and waited for the casting to break but it still wobbles. Any ideas of accurate drilling are impossible. I also wanted to use it for mortising but it would be useless for that. Unless I had gallons of putty. The floor casting is thin and once bolted to the floor it still wobbles when pushed. Not solid or heavy duty as claimed. The safety switch under the lid for the pulley adjustment did not even come close to making contact so the machine would not go until I bent the contact with the multigrips. The picture in the catalogue has three chrome rods for the handle but mine came with a heavy black cast iron handle. Ugly as sin.

If you think that I am not too happy then you would be right. I took the punt on a Chinese machine and it serves me right. I got what I paid for though I thought $499 would get me a reasonable tool. I will be on the phone in the morning to discuss the return of the machine for a refund or to have the bodgey bits replaced with suitable parts. I don't like my chances but we will see.

I will post the follow up tomorrow night.

Col.

I got up early this morning, went out to the shed, pulled the drill apart and bagged it all up and stuck it back in its box. I phoned Hare and Forbes but there was no one able to speak to me so I shoved the drill in the trailer and took it back. I explained the story and the sales manager refunded all of my money. The shop display and the catalogue picture are different to what I got in my box. he said they just check the first one in an order and assume they are all the same and ok. (not a good way to do it) I tried to get a deal on the next model up but he wouldn't be in it.

Went to Carba-tec and looked at their drills. Much better quality and castings are finished better. Would not budge on price and told me that show specials were coming up.

Went to Woodwork machinery Warehouse in Citrus Ave Braeside.

:2tsup:

Saw a JET 17 for $630 approx can't remember the exact figure. Told the the Hare and Forbes story and came home with the JET for $575. Top quality straight out of the box. Not oily and gungy and dirty. Castings all good and solid as a rock. Put it all together and it comes with a 1 - 16 keyless chuck and a drill vice with T-bolt fixings. Did the bent wire test to see how even the table is and it is spot on. The only thing I will be changing is to remove the screw that holds the belt cover closed and I will fit a knob for ease of entry.

I recently bought a 19 inch bandsaw from Carba-tec. Hare and Forbes have bandsaws that look exactly the same until you carefully look at the castings. Chalk and cheese. Taiwan makes better stuff than China it seems.

You get what you pay for and it does pay to shop around and don't be scared to ask for a better price.......

Col

[malb]

Sorry to hear about your experience Col. We bought one about 4 years ago for the metalwork business where I used to work, it sounds like the display one you described.
It always had a motor vibration present, whether running under load or not, and the table and table mount would flex under load due to light table castings and poor facing of the bracketry for the table support arm. Also had poor belt life due to misalignment of the pulleys between the layshaft set and spindle set, and problems with the keyed chuck not gripping bits. The light (40W bayonet tungten), buried deep in the head casting had a fairly short life due to poor air circirculation and vibration and very little useful light landed in the actual work area, it was mostly concentrated on the table about 100mm behind the bit, creating a glare spot.

All in, I think the Jet would have to be the better option.

[Slow6]

Gday col.

Give this guy a call.. I think his name is Frank (but my memory may be failing me)

Northern Machinery Co Pty Ltd

95- 99 Plenty Rd, Preston, VIC 3072
p: (03) 9484 6726 f: (03) 9484 3013


He deals in second hand machinery and I've had luck buying from him before.

I dropped a heap of cash on carbatec a while back and every machine went back within six months.

I've also managed to save a bit buying old 3phase gear and buying new single phase motors.

Best of luck.. and good on you for putting the drill straight back in your trailer.

[Sturdee]

the PD-22 in the catalogue and decided it looked ok. Catalogue $519 Paid $499.


and


I explained the story and the sales manager refunded all of my money.

So you bought a machine based on a catalogue description and when it turned out to be wrong they cheerfully refunded your money without any question or dramas. They must be really lousy to do that and so to continue to deserve your swipe.:~:~:~ Personally I think that is good service and that ought to have been acknowledged.



he said they just check the first one in an order and assume they are all the same and ok. (not a good way to do it)

So you expect a business to unpack each machine, open it upto see if it is all correct. Don't know any retailer that does that. :no::no::no:


I tried to get a deal on the next model up but he wouldn't be in it.


May be that is the real reason for the continued swipe at H & F. :doh:


Peter.

[Col]

and



So you bought a machine based on a catalogue description and when it turned out to be wrong they cheerfully refunded your money without any question or dramas. They must be really lousy to do that and so to continue to deserve your swipe.:~:~:~ Personally I think that is good service and that ought to have been acknowledged.




So you expect a business to unpack each machine, open it upto see if it is all correct. Don't know any retailer that does that. :no::no::no:



May be that is the real reason for the continued swipe at H & F. :doh:


Peter.

I swiped at them (your words) because they sell crap machines (drill presses)advertised as heavy duty which they are not. They advertise with a photo and sell customers something different. They advertise on the floor for 529, catalogue for 519 and Trading post for 499. I never asked them for any discount innitially. I did ask WMW for a discount and got it. I asked Carba-tec for a discount and did not get it. If you don't ask you dont get it. Because of their (H&F) tardiness I am out of pocket many dollars but I suppose that is ok. The manager was appologetic for the situation and realised H&F had made an error that is why a refund in full was given. If it had been a figment of my immagination then a refund would not have been forthcoming and rightly so.

Carba-tec and WMW sell superior quality machines. Get over it. Go and have a close look for yourself instead of trying to have a cheap shot at me for informing others of my last few days experience..

Hare and Forbes no more..............

Col

[Col]

Gday col.

Give this guy a call.. I think his name is Frank (but my memory may be failing me)

Northern Machinery Co Pty Ltd

95- 99 Plenty Rd, Preston, VIC 3072
p: (03) 9484 6726 f: (03) 9484 3013


He deals in second hand machinery and I've had luck buying from him before.

I dropped a heap of cash on carbatec a while back and every machine went back within six months.

I've also managed to save a bit buying old 3phase gear and buying new single phase motors.

Best of luck.. and good on you for putting the drill straight back in your trailer.

I have dealt with them many times and sold a Woodfast saw to them many years ago.

Col

[Rossluck]

My impression was that you were evaluating the quality of the machines, Col, and not dumping on H&Fs. This has been a good thread and I thank you for describing so well the process of "getting it right". The bottom line is that companies sourcing stuff from China or Taiwan need to be aware of the quality, or lack thereof.

[burraboy]

I have just had dealings with H&F, bought a 600mm bench panbrake. Because of worries about quality, I went to the showroom and checked out the demonstrator, did a few test bends and was happy with the results and the machine so ordered one to be delivered. The delivered tool was a load of rubbish, instead of the blade being flush with the bed, it is .5mm high on one side,rising to 1.5mm the other, the eccentric adjustors for the blade are so loose that the act of bending pushes them out of position and results in a rounded bend with the blade needing readjustment for the next bend. Machinery I have bought from them in the distant past was excellent, I think they need to review their quality policy!

[Col]

My impression was that you were evaluating the quality of the machines, Col, and not dumping on H&Fs. This has been a good thread and I thank you for describing so well the process of "getting it right". The bottom line is that companies sourcing stuff from China or Taiwan need to be aware of the quality, or lack thereof.

Thanks. I know I had a bit of a rant in anger but such is life.

There used to be a sign hanging in Pontings hardware in Warnambool that went along the lines of...

"The joy of a bargain price is soon forgotten but the pain of a poor quality tool lasts forever"

Col

[Col]

I have just had dealings with H&F, bought a 600mm bench panbrake. Because of worries about quality, I went to the showroom and checked out the demonstrator, did a few test bends and was happy with the results and the machine so ordered one to be delivered. The delivered tool was a load of rubbish, instead of the blade being flush with the bed, it is .5mm high on one side,rising to 1.5mm the other, the eccentric adjustors for the blade are so loose that the act of bending pushes them out of position and results in a rounded bend with the blade needing readjustment for the next bend. Machinery I have bought from them in the distant past was excellent, I think they need to review their quality policy!

All they are achieving by doing this is getting people angry, who in turn pass the bad experience to others and lose sales. They probably have plenty of good stuff and plenty of satisfied customers but let themselves down with your issue and mine. I am sure there are similar stories with all of the machinery sellers but I can only comment on my experiences. Unfortunately some people take umbrage to that.

Col..

Col.

[Sturdee]

Carba-tec and WMW sell superior quality machines. Get over it. Go and have a close look for yourself

Been there, done that many years ago and don't need any more machines and the machines I have bought from H & F ( a jointer, bandsaw and disk sander) were of better or same quality at a lesser price.


Peter.

[Col]

Been there, done that many years ago and don't need any more machines and the machines I have bought from H & F ( a jointer, bandsaw and disk sander) were of better or same quality at a lesser price.


Peter.

Maybe they are cutting a few corners nowdays in order to compete. The woodwork area seems to me to be a bit of a sideline to the metalworking machinery in the showroom and they are not going to be represented at the upcoming Woodwork show at the showgrounds. I originally looked at H&F due to the recommendation of a work friend as he was happy with his dust extractor and thicknesser. The thing is that he is doing decking and pergola carpentry and I am a joiner and work to fag paper tolerances. (try to anyway) What works for him may not be suitable for me. I have been involved in the trade from the early 70s. Ships carpenter/joiner by trade. Served my time on the bench and learned all traditional wood machines and hand tool skills. No portable power tools allowed not even sanders. Everything scraped and hand sanded. Eventually became a secondary trade teacher in woodwork and metalwork. Did a bit of TAFE then worked for the HIA looking after the victorian carpentry apprentices. Became totally discouraged with the direction the trade was going and burned out. Now I work in the publishing area of the Herald and Weekly times and do woodwork as a sideline just to keep my hand in and as a hobby. So to cut a long story short, I have purchased many, many items of woodworking machinery over the years both for personal use and for schools and industry and I have a fair idea of what is good or no so good. It is much easier when money isn't an object and you are spending some governments department funds on tools and equipment.

Anyway, sorry to prattle on.

Col.

[Ashes]

There are multiple manufacturers of the "same" gear in China. Each manufactures to a customers price point with quality and materials the differentiator.

The same manufacturer will make the same "model" to different standards. Whilst the machines look the same with perhaps a different paint scheme, they are not necessarily the same internally. This will explain why retailer A can be cheaper than B on what looks like the same item.

The advantage with the name brands is that extra money always goes into the quality of the parts and quality of manufacture. They cost more because they are better and are often better supported after sales.

[Col]

There are multiple manufacturers of the "same" gear in China. Each manufactures to a customers price point with quality and materials the differentiator.

The same manufacturer will make the same "model" to different standards. Whilst the machines look the same with perhaps a different paint scheme, they are not necessarily the same internally. This will explain why retailer A can be cheaper than B on what looks like the same item.

The advantage with the name brands is that extra money always goes into the quality of the parts and quality of manufacture. They cost more because they are better and are often better supported after sales.

Yes, thats exactly how the bloke at Carba-tec explained it to me. A bit like Subway, start with a basic and add extras as needed.

Col.

[missionaryman]

Thanks for this review Col, I have found it particularly helpful as I'm about to make some big purchases and was tossing up whether to go Carbatec or H&F.
H&F seems to be a bit cheaper but they don't seem to have the good reputation of Carbatec.

I disagree with the spirit of Sturdee's response, I think that even though they did do well to refund you without hassle, I feel they do deserve your sentiments.

While it's true that buying off a photo and description in a catalogue alone is not the best way to go about making a purchase I have never seen any retailer stop me or anyone else from doing so and if I went into Carbatec or H&F or anyone similar and said "hi I'm going to buy a new table saw and I've brought along my piece of 3" blackbutt to rip through on all of your machines so I can make a truly informed choice" I'm not sure that they will too hapiliy oblige.

Also while it is impractical for a retailer to check every parcel they receive, it's not unfair to "swipe" them when they get the following wrong:

1. wrong description on cataloge
2. 3 different current advertised prices for the same item
3. no help or solution offered over the phone
4. display model is different from catalogue and item delivered which was different again (if catalogue, actual and display are all different I'll be stuffed as to how Col could have better informed himself before buying)
5. inferior quality item that doesn't perform as advertised

In fact other than the way they undid the sale I can't actually see where they went right, and if this level of retailer performance doesn't deserve a "swiping" I'd hate to see what does.

[Col]

Thanks. I was a bit hot under the collar when I wrote all of that. After having and using the Jet drill for a couple of weeks now, I am glad it worked out the way it did. I am very happy with it.

Col

[Johncs]

and



So you bought a machine based on a catalogue description and when it turned out to be wrong they cheerfully refunded your money without any question or dramas.

Peter.

The law, specifically the Trade Practices Act requires the refund, if that's what the customer wishes. It is the very least the could do. Where a product is sold by description, it must meet that description. Goods sold for a purpose must be fit for the purpose, and one would expect a drill to be able to drill holes, and at the price paid I would expect them to do rather a fine job of drilling holes.

[Sturdee]

The law, specifically the Trade Practices Act requires the refund, if that's what the customer wishes. It is the very least the could do. Where a product is sold by description, it must meet that description. Goods sold for a purpose must be fit for the purpose, and one would expect a drill to be able to drill holes, and at the price paid I would expect them to do rather a fine job of drilling holes.


Wasn't my statement clear enough that you needed to clarify it.:? As I said they gave the refund immediately without any question or drama .


Peter.

[Johncs]

Wasn't my statement clear enough that you needed to clarify it.:? As I said they gave the refund immediately without any question or drama .


Peter.

It is also true they could have done more, they had an obviously unhappy customer and apparently declined an opportunity to ameliorate the damage done.

I'm sure Col was somewhere between stress: :sad3: and :(( but hopefully less than :punching:, but there are ways of handling difficult customers. I have a book I cannot find atm by Kris Cole, but here's one of her promotions: http://www.bax.com.au/workshops/ccc.html

Basically, the process begins:
Listen to the customer's feedback. Do not debate the facts. Empathise to the extent you can. Ask, "What would you like us to do?"

Maybe, Col would have said, "Could I pay a little more and have the next model?" Imagine, if the response was, "Certainly! Shall we go over with it with you before you take it away?"

What then might Col's report have been?

Note that nothing above requires them to do anything unreasonable.

As I said, they did the least the law requires of them, and Col's feeling aggrieved has done them no good at all.

[Johncs]

Coincidentally, I was out for a walk today (along with a train ride), and when far from home discovered this place:
http://www.fioramachinery.com.au/
Now I'd not say their website is very enticing, but they are the WA representatives of Harris & Forbes, and I've started eyeing off tablesaws, so I went in.

It is surely a fine toy shop: an item bearing a label "mini drill" also bore a price tag well over $4000.

I asked about the http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Products?stockCode=W446 ts-250, the cheapest new tablesaw I know about, and was told "its good value, but it needs some tuning and some strengthening. If you want a saw that's ready to use, better buy one of the others."

Apparently they sold one, and the customer was about as happy as Col so they took it back. They are not keen to sell another.
And no, they don't open the packages and inspect the contents any more than Bunnings does.

[Sturdee]

Wasn't my statement clear enough that you needed to clarify it.:? As I said they gave the refund immediately without any question or drama .

and



As I said, they did the least the law requires of them,

So it was clear enough and your post about what the law required was totally extraneous, for they had already complied with it at the first opportunity that they had. Thank you. So my post was clear enough.

Further they did not do the least the law requires of them, they did all that the law required of them.

[Johncs]

As I said, they did the least the law requires of them, and Col's feeling aggrieved has done them no good at all.

I was researching drill presses, and came across this thread. and this video, which shows how Delta handles complaints.
YouTube - How not to start your bench drill

I'm sure the Delta owner is satisfied, though maybe not happy. Delta fixed the problem, and gave him a small gift.

[Image_Drumworks]

i work in a heavy engineering shop in western sydney which is home to about 15 cnc machines. 6 of them being japanese, another 3 being czech, 2 russians, a german and then 2 taiwanese ones bought from hare and forbes....

these 2 machines are supposed to be production machines but they have more down time than any other machine in the place. one came with a multi-axis attachment that for the 3 years its been there has never worked.... and when are nd forbes installed the machine they never tred to fix the problem.

its not just their 400 dollar woodworking machines its also their 600,000 dollar metalworking machines....

since then the owner has never tried to look for the best price he now looks for the best quality. we have a new machin being installed that cost approx 2.2 million dollars.

just thought i would add in there....:2tsup:

[Peter57]

Don't believe the label either just because it says it's made in Taiwan doesn't necessarily mean it is. I was at a customer's plant in Suzhou a few months ago and they had a neighbouring business that was doing a great trade buying Chinese made machinery, removing the "made in China label" and affixing a "Made in Taiwan" label before selling it to unsuspecting exporters. When buying anything made in this part of the world, "buyer beware" has a new meaning.

I live in Shanghai and have seen Carbatec tools on sale here in China (I assume they were production over runs or maybe quality seconds). They even had the Carbatec phone numbers on them!

Living here you quickly learn to check everything before you hand over the money.

[brisbanefitter]

what brand cnc from hare and forbes?

if somebody paid 600k for a machine and they just let it be not working then ? if i paid 600k for anything i would make really sure it worked and kept on working