Hollowing tool handle sizes

[Robomanic]

Hi all,

At 's, Ern mentioned in passing that the bar he used recently for a hollowing tool shaft was 16mm, not imperial and it caused issues. I'm assuming the issues were with changing tools withing the one handle.

From those who have built or just those who know, could we have a bit of a run down on the diameters frequently used, and the depth of the tang so those (me included) who are making their own handles can use other bars in the future and don't make some great handle that will never have anything else fit in it.

[Grumpy John]

O.K. here goes, I hope this makes sense.

Metric Imperial
6.00 = 0.2362"
~6.35= 0.250" or 1/4"
~7.95 = 0.3125" or 5/16"
8.00 = 0.3150"
~9.55 = 0.375" or 3/8"
10.00 = 0.3937"
12.00 = 0.4724"
12.7 =0.500" or 1/2"
~15.8 = 0.625" or 5/8"
16.00 = 0.6299"
19.00 = 0.748"
~19.05 = 0.750" or 3/4"
25.00 = 0.9843"
25.4 = 1.00"

Now hopefully you can work out what shafts can go into your handles. As long as you remember to "back off" the grub screw. Isn't that right Skew .

[Cliff Rogers]

It varies from brand to brand.

I have a couple now & the tang on the tool holder that goes into the handle seems to be either 12mm or 1/2" (slightly different) depending on where it was made.

The bar it is made from is either 19mm or 11/16" again, slightly different & again, depending on where it was made.

The bar for my long deep hollowing tool is 22mm.

[Robomanic]

Thanks GJ, (sort of :~)

If i think about it really hard and use a pencil i can convert between metric and imperial. Surely some of those sizes are more commonly used for the bar stock. For instance i don't imagine there are many hollowing bars out there using 1/4" bar are there? Can we narrow the list down a bit?

Just in case of confusion i am not talking about the tips - i know there is a massive range of them.

- thanks cliff

[Grumpy John]

Thanks GJ, (sort of :~)

If i think about it really hard and use a pencil i can convert between metric and imperial. Surely some of those sizes are more commonly used for the bar stock. For instance i don't imagine there are many hollowing bars out there using 1/4" bar are there? Can we narrow the list down a bit?

Just in case of confusion i am not talking about the tips - i know there is a massive range of them.

- thanks cliff

Fair call about the 1/4", I only included that because a lot of tips are 1/4", not too many 10mm or 3/8" shafts out there.

Conversion factor:
to convert inch to metric, mutliply by 25.4
to convert metric to inch multiply by 0.03937 (0.04 is near enough)


Cheers
GJ

[Grumpy John]

O.K. here goes, I hope this makes sense.

Metric | Imperial
12.00 | 0.4724"
12.7 | 0.500" or 1/2"

~15.8 | 0.625" or 5/8"
16.00 | 0.6299"

19.00 | 0.748"
~19.05 | 0.750" or 3/4"

25.00 | 0.9843"
25.4 | 1.00"

Now hopefully you can work out what shafts can go into your handles. As long as you remember to "back off" the grub screw. Isn't that right Skew .

Readers Digest version, still can't figure out how to create columns.

[Robomanic]

Fair call about the 1/4", I only included that because a lot of tips are 1/4", not too many 10mm or 3/8" shafts out there.

Conversion factor:
to convert inch to metric, mutliply by 25.4
to convert metric to inch multiply by 0.03937 (0.04 is near enough)


Cheers
GJ

Just so we are all on the same page, i am bi-lingual so feel free to talk about 10mm without worrying that it wont fit in my carefully honed 3/8" socket.

btw maybe it's easier to divide by 25.4 rather than toss up what to multiply by...

So, so far we have;

(imperial) / nearest metric

Tang:
1/2" / 12mm
5/8" / 16mm

Shaft:
11/16" / 17mm
3/4" / 19mm (is this what you meant Cliff?)

Tip stock:
A variety so far

Tang depth:
? so far

[RETIRED]

Just so we are all on the same page, i am bi-lingual so feel free to talk about 10mm without worrying that it wont fit in my carefully honed 3/8" socket.

btw maybe it's easier to divide by 25.4 rather than toss up what to multiply by...

So, so far we have;

(imperial) / nearest metric

Tang:
1/2" / 12mm
5/16" / 16mm =5/8"
5/16 / 8mm


Shaft:
11/16" / 17mm
3/4" / 19mm (is this what you meant Cliff?)

Tip stock:
A variety so far

Tang depth:
? so farCorrections.

[Robomanic]

yeah woops, 5/8" / 16mm was the one i meant to include. :B

[Grumpy John]

FWIW I make all my handles from 32mm dia.(1 1/4") aluminium stock, then drill and ream to suit shaft. I wrap the handle with bicycle handlebar tape for grip and comfort.

[Cliff Rogers]

....
(imperial) / nearest metric

Tang:
1/2" / 12mm
5/16" / 16mm

Shaft:
11/16" / 17mm
3/4" / 19mm (is this what you meant Cliff?)

...

Nearly but not quiet...

One brand I have is made in Oz, it has a 12mm tang with either a 19mm or a 22mm shaft.

The other is a Chiwanese clone of something & it has a 1/2" tang with a 11/16" shaft.

The tang on both of them is 50mm long.

The Ci1 is made from 1/2" square bar with a 1/2" round tang with a flat on it & it is 2½" long.

[rsser]

If you buy made shafts/tips:

- Proforme and Munro standard: 5/8" shafts
- Vermec deep hollower is I think half inch but Cliff can speak on this better than me

With any decent hollowing depth 5/8 would be the min IMO and 3/4 better.

Of course, if you're mounting your own cup cutter or scraper tip you can use any kind of monster shaft you like. Speak to GJ, Hughie and Skew to name but a few monster hollowers ;-}

[Cliff Rogers]

.....
- Vermec deep hollower is I think half inch but Cliff can speak on this better than me
....

12mm, not ½"

The tools I have with a ½" tang won't fit in the Vermec handle. :(

[rsser]

Get out the belt sander Cliff ;-}

Damn it's a pox with this mix of imperial and metric.

FWIW the Vicmarc hollower mount comes with collets of 12mm, 1/2, 5/8 and 3/4 IIRC - that gives you a bit of an idea Shannon of this Tower of Babel.

[Robomanic]

Thanks guys,

The tang is of most interest I guess - but i can see that it will be difficult to cover most of the bases with one handle. Especially when a snug fit is best and taking up the slop with grub screws will not be that solid.

Surprised the tang is only 50mm Cliff, my gut feeling is pointing me to about ~75mm/ 3" but that is the art i suppose - knowing what you can get away with.

[rsser]

Cliff is a big bloke and from what I've seen goes in hard ;-}

PS, apart from that, there are other variables - how much overhang, how much tool edge contact, etc.

[Grumpy John]

Shannon,
If I make any more hollower handles I will make them double ended, i.e. 32mm dia handle, ream one end 12mm and ream the other end 1/2". Do the same for 16mm and 5/8" shaft. For me these are the most common sizes. As for depth I usually ream 100mm deep, just coz it's 100 deep doesn't mean you have to put the shaft all the way into the handle.

Hope this helps and doesn't add to the confusion.

[Robomanic]

FWIW I make all my handles from 32mm dia.(1 1/4") aluminium stock, then drill and ream to suit shaft. I wrap the handle with bicycle handlebar tape for grip and comport.

Being a fitter GJ have you thought of threading the end of the shaft and tapping the handle? Or you just go for big enough grub screws. Some I have seen have pretty piddly screws compared to the size of the tool as a whole, not to mention stripping out etc etc.

Apart from GJ's I guess, are the handles usually just solid wood or are they sleeved to take the tang?

[Cliff Rogers]

Have a look at the pics on this site (http://www.vermec.com/index.html).

The Vermec base model has a 19mm shaft with a 12mm spigot going 50mm into a snug fit socket in the end of a 25mm handle, the shank on the shaft goes neatly up against the end of the handle.
The tang has a small flat on it that a hefty grub screw holds in place.
Any catch big enough to do damage to something that size is more likely to knock my face shield off & give my a clip on the ear first. :D

[Grumpy John]

Being a fitter GJ have you thought of threading the end of the shaft and tapping the handle? Or you just go for big enough grub screws. Some I have seen have pretty piddly screws compared to the size of the tool as a whole, not to mention stripping out etc etc.

Apart from GJ's I guess, are the handles usually just solid wood or are they sleeved to take the tang?

Shannon,
If the fit of the shaft into the handle is neat enough you don't need massive grub screws, I find M6 x 10 gets the job done. As for stripping the thread, again if the fit is neat no need for massive forces.

Cheers
GJ

[Cliff Rogers]

....Apart from GJ's I guess, are the handles usually just solid wood or are they sleeved to take the tang?

The Vermec one is 25mm steel with a foam grip on it.
The 'customer/operator' end of the handle is hollow & filled with loose lead shot for balance & damping.

[Robomanic]

Have a look at the pics on this site (http://www.vermec.com/index.html).

Any catch big enough to do damage to something that size is more likely to knock my face shield off & give my a clip on the ear first. :D

Yeah i'll pay 50mm if its going into metal and not wood. Likewise for the grub screws GJ - M6x10 should be nice and solid. Starting to get some real inspiration now - lookout local scrappies :U

Exiting slacking off at work mode.....
Entering driving home from work mode....

[Grumpy John]

Shannon
Some piccies.
Pict. 1 & 2 Store bought munro hollower 5/8" shaft.
Pict. 3 & 4 3/4" bowl gouge Homemade 32mm handle shaft turned down to 18.5 mm because I couldn't find a 19mm or 3/4" reamer in the store at work :((.
Pict. 5 & 6 1/2" bowl gouge Home made 32mm handle reamed 1/2".
Pict. 7 Home made rougher with 1/2" shaft to suit above handle.
Pict 8. Oland tool with 12mm shaft into 25mm dia. handle (have to get some tape for this handle).
Pict. 9 Gooseneck tool with 12mm shaft to suit above handle.
Pict. 10 Hollower 700mm long TIG welded s/s 30mm dia. handle 30 x 10 shaft, takes 1/4" sq. HSS bit.

Shafts are either stainless or 4140 tool steel.

[RETIRED]

likely to knock my face shield off & give my a clip on the ear first. :D:p

[hughie]

Robomanic,

I make allot of my own and tend to stick with 19-20mm shafts, tang invariably 10mm and 75mm long 50mm is IMHO way to short.

I have a few skinny ones ie 12mm but the shaft steel is real slick stuff, around $90 per metre. Even with 12 mm shaft I have the tang 10mm and glue them in with Araldite or similar epoxy glue.


Nice work Grumpy John, thumbs up

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

I've noticed a lot of people using fairly small diameter shafts for Oland tools. This severely limits their use, to only light hollowing or final cuts. Chatter is the enemy. If I had my beast with the 1" shaft at 's you'd have seen where they really excel: hogging out.

Hughie's olands are as good as any I've seen, in that they have a heavy shaft. :2tsup: (I'm expecting good performance from them.)

In my experience a 10x50mm tang is adequate for normal use, as there's little load on the joint. It's not like it's under load while overhanging the tool-rest... or I sincerely hope not! :oo:

However, I put a LOT of effort into my big oland (enough to lever wood off the faceplate at times :- ) and feel a lot more secure knowing it has more than a mere 50mm length of tang...

Even so, I was impressed with the tools GJ took to Robbos. Good start! Now he just needs to beef up the next version... :D:p

[Ed Reiss]

Wow....what a lot of drama about sizing a hole, getting tired just reading 'bout it!:C

Sure am glad that all the hollowing tools I use fit into 2 categories :

1) 3 foot long, 1/2 inch cold rolled steel - drilled and tapped to hold a 1/4 inch tool bit.

2) 3 foot long, 3/8 inch cold rolled steel - drilled and tapped to hold a 3/8 inch tool bit.

Keepin' It Simple

[Grumpy John]

Nice work Grumpy John, thumbs up






Even so, I was impressed with the tools GJ took to Robbos. Good start! Now he just needs to beef up the next version... :D:p



Thanks for the kind words fellas, didn't even know what an Oland tool was when I made it. The idea just popped into my head at work one day and there was some stainless just lying around :rolleyes:, next thing you know I've got another tool.

[Cliff Rogers]

....

1) 3 foot long, 1/2 inch cold rolled steel - drilled and tapped to hold a 1/4 inch tool bit.

2) 3 foot long, 3/8 inch cold rolled steel - drilled and tapped to hold a 3/8 inch tool bit.

Keepin' It Simple

How do you hold a 3/8 bit to a 3/8 shaft? :?

I'm guessing that it is a typo & should be a 5/8 shaft.

[Ed Reiss]

How do you hold a 3/8 bit to a 3/8 shaft? :?

I'm guessing that it is a typo & should be a 5/8 shaft.

Yea...that damn 3 key keeps getting in the way of the 5 :doh::o:U

BTW GJ...good job on the tool!:2tsup:

[TTIT]

Hi all,

At 's, Ern mentioned in passing that the bar he used recently for a hollowing tool shaft was 16mm, not imperial and it caused issues. I'm assuming the issues were with changing tools withing the one handle.

From those who have built or just those who know, could we have a bit of a run down on the diameters frequently used, and the depth of the tang so those (me included) who are making their own handles can use other bars in the future and don't make some great handle that will never have anything else fit in it.


Wow....what a lot of drama about sizing a hole, getting tired just reading 'bout it!:C ................I think you might have missed the point of the thread Ed :no:. I reckon Robomanic is looking to future-proof his handle design to fit any shaft that comes along, not so much concerned about what cutters fit in what sized shaft :shrug:. For example, my main hollowing handle (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=79226) is an old motorbike fork leg with 18mm inside diameter so it's nice and hefty and is a cosy fit for the tang I turned on my 3/4" square hollowing shaft - but it also holds my older 5/8" and 16mm shafts just fine once you wind the grubscrews in a bit :U

[Ed Reiss]

I think you might have missed the point of the thread Ed :no:. I reckon Robomanic is looking to future-proof his handle design to fit any shaft that comes along, not so much concerned about what cutters fit in what sized shaft :shrug:. For example, my main hollowing handle (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=79226) is an old motorbike fork leg with 18mm inside diameter so it's nice and hefty and is a cosy fit for the tang I turned on my 3/4" square hollowing shaft - but it also holds my older 5/8" and 16mm shafts just fine once you wind the grubscrews in a bit :U

Actually the point was made perfectly clear, the part I have trouble with is that there are xxxx number of turners who have turned to manufacturering tools...each with their own proprietary shaft size so that the poor turner who plunks down his life savings for hooked hollowing tool must buy the appropriately sized handle and then when you want the latest offering from another mfg....whoops, the hooked hollowing tool that I already have wont fit that handle because it's drilled differently.
TT, I get it perfectly...tool mfg's want you to buy their tools only....and RBM is wise to try and come up with a handle that fits all:2tsup:

[rsser]

Modular handles seem to be a much bigger thing in the US than here, and most of the decent jobs there have collets for accommodating several shaft sizes. This provides convenience alongside the expense.

But sometimes you can simply semi-permanently step down a handle socket with an appropriate brass sleeve from your local industrial supplies place.

[rsser]

btw, a post on one version of a handle is here:

http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=73080&highlight=diy+handle

[Robomanic]

That's a nice spread of tools GJ, it does look a bit like resistance is futile. Part of me wants to make a handle with cam lock or collet type locking, but that might be at the expense of vibration damping. Two double ended handles will probably cover a lot of possibilities.

Honestly, I often get more caught up in the making of the tools or the jigs than in the sawdust making itself. But that comes with seeing the world through engineers eyes I guess.

Thanks for all the great tips and discussion guys. :2tsup: Always a pleasure

[rsser]

When I get stale with turning then knocking up tools is a worthwhile diversion Shannon. Nothing wrong with that.

As for locking tips and shafts, and vibration, most of the fixes you see both by DIYers and manufacturers are pretty simple. Usually a bolt with knob or one or two grub screws.

[Robomanic]

As for locking tips and shafts, and vibration, most of the fixes you see both by DIYers and manufacturers are pretty simple. Usually a bolt with knob or one or two grub screws.

Understandable, simple often means cheap & reliable. I guess often that is what is boils down to. Not going to stop me looking for a better way first though :q

[rsser]

Well I have multiple handles that use all 3 methods. Vibration is not a problem. That's caused elswhere.

[joe greiner]

I hate to throw cold water on such an interesting religious war, but, um, have we lost sight of the possibility that woodturning is supposed to be fun? And making handles isn't exactly purgatory, at least for me. This thread is now about one & a half days old; enough time to make several handles, subject to timber availability and appropriate accessories.

If I've accidentally neglected to offend anyone, please inform me so I can consider a correction.

Joe

[rsser]

LoL.

Sometimes w/t fun can just be cerebral ;-}

[Robomanic]

Your insight has woken me from a dream Joe, what was I thinking? In fact, why discuss anything on these forums. In fact why are they even here? Quick, lets all lock ourselves in our sheds.

Of course you just want someone to bite, but hey it's near the end of the week and tolerance is low.

[Ed Reiss]

Quick, lets all lock ourselves in our sheds.


Ha...my darling wife would probably 2nd that motion!!:U

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

I hate to throw cold water on such an interesting religious war, but, um, have we lost sight of the possibility that woodturning is supposed to be fun?

Turning is done when the neighbours are awake and thinking about it when they're asleep.

Although occasionally this order is reversed, in my case, when their yap-yap has insomnia. :p:-:D

[INVENTOR]

Its an interesting topic, in more ways than one. Being able to easily fit the tools into a handle/s that fits various tools also means that when it comes to sharpening and transport you don't have to worry about the handles getting in the way.

Believe me, I have spent ages looking at the problem.
The closest 'real' solution ( at the moment *) is a Kelton Ultimate handle. It uses a 19mm collet and then you can fit sleeves to your smaller tools to fit in the collet. it is designed for the larger hollowing tools. Yes it costs money, but so do the rest of our turning tools.
Anyone with engineering background will know that milling collets ( particlularly the ER collets) have a 1mm range.
So this means a 1/2 collet will accept anything from 12mm to 13mm. Which covers virtually any tool of that size ( eg 12mm ,1/2" ) and even the Glaser gouges that are 13mm. google ER collet/holders or words to that effect to discover how good they are.

The same thing applies to hollowing tools. Hence why Kelton have their handle.
Their other advantage is they don't damage the shafts and are easy to do up and release. no grub screw damage and a lot quicker.

* keep your eyes open for a commercially available handle that will soon answer your problems.
I hope this helps.

[Robomanic]

That does help, thanks. Even if only to validate my pursuits.



* keep your eyes open for a commercially available handle that will soon answer your problems.


Wouldn't have anything to do with your nickname would it?

[INVENTOR]

what I forgot to say also was that when you use a collet 'nose' on the handle, it also allows you many other advantages.
1. if the shaft doesn't have a step down, you can adjust the lenght of the tool within the handle.( or use a bigger collet) even store it in backwards ( out of the way, for transport)
2. you can grind a sharp end on both ends of the steel. while the flute of the gouge etc only goes so far, it doesn't stop you from grinding the other end into a useable shape. rather than wasting all of that metal in a wooden handle.
3. by changing a collet/s you can use tools from 1mm up to the largest size for that collet handle, as engineering collets are generally available world wide and range in 1mm increments. ( also imperial sizes)

I have been using this system that I developed ( as described above) for some time and its just great. There is no problem with vibration, as the collets will not come undone ( they are used in milling machines etc) and you can always add lead shot etc to the hollow metal handle if you need.
To see what I mean, have a look for Kelton Ultimate handle at Lee Valley web site
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=51559&cat=1,330,49236&ap=1

[joe greiner]

'Twas Wednesday morning upover here, hardly near the end of the week. But it WAS near the end of my session yesterday - dangerous territory on occasion; and on another recent thread I stated my motto something like "I sometimes pass up the opportunity for a stir."

My point, which most of you got, was that dedicated handles for each tool isn't such a bad idea, although developing interchangeable kits is also an interesting challenge to keep the gray cells exercised.

The "religious war" referred to a debate about a year or so ago regarding metric vs. Imperial. Peace now prevails, thank Goodness.

All in fun, of course, mates.:D:D

Cheers upon cheers,
Joe

[Robomanic]

Partly my fault for reading on the way out the door, and mistaking you for someone who just wanted to stir and not trying to contribute something.

No hard feelings Joe, really.

[joe greiner]

None taken, Shannon. Really, for sure.

Joe

[rsser]

FWIW, apart from mounting deep hollowing tool shanks, I agree, a dedicated handle for ordinary tools is the way to go. Cheap to make, quick to, er, swap over.

[INVENTOR]

There is no doubt that people will always want to use dedicated handles for each tool. That said, I have a couple of 'collet' type handles that I use for most tools and tools such as scrapers and the like ( that have tangs) and don't get used much, in 'usual' turning, I have with wooden handles.

I believe its not a case of one or the other.

My most used tool is a 1/2" bowl gouge, so I bought a few of these ( over the years) and rather than race to the grinder when one is blunt, it is far easier to quuickly undo the collet (with your hand) and fit a sharp tool. Takes all of a couple of seconds.

It sounds like I have lots of tools. I do have lots of tools that I shouldn't have bought. They are just not necessary. They collect dust.
Something that is difficult to 'learn' when you are begining. One very good quality 1/2" bowl gouge ( with a good grind) is worth a whole set of ordinary quality tools of varoius shapes.
Just wish someone had convinced me of that, when I first started.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Just wish someone had convinced me of that, when I first started.

We try, but people just don't listen. :no:

Probably 'cos straight after we tell 'em so, we usually sidetrack into discussing the pros 'n cons of various fandangled gidgets 'n widgets.

[rsser]

Then they come to a Vic turn-fest ... :oo:

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

...and get hooked on thinking about bigger, better lathes!

[rsser]

Yeah that too.

Will have to chk with Jeff's Anne before letting him in my shed ;-}

[woodwork wally]

I would not contemplate even thinking that Ern cos A. its not all bolted down and B. Anne will kill you for sure . I dropped a homemade one at Robbos do and it barely marked the floor cos was nearly taken out of mid air so fast . He is going to be tool rich and time poor and Anne will still be waiting for the open day that is to be held when the house is done , chhers for now and keep turning Jeff WW.Wally

[joe greiner]

...and get hooked on thinking about bigger, better lathes!

, for which we have no hope of finding space in the sliding-block puzzle.:rolleyes:

Joe