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NeilS
23rd Oct 2008, 12:25 PM
This suggestion on a Carbide Insert blog is relevant to this thread:

http://carbideinserts.blogspot.com/2008/02/carbide-insert-for-turning-wood.html (http://carbideinserts.blogspot.com/2008/02/carbide-insert-for-turning-wood.html)
<O:p</O:p
This is the suggested tip... it's been designed for cutting aluminium. That may provide another avenue for investigating suitable sources of carbide tips.


http://www.pgstools.com/servlet/the-6565/TCGT-21.51-dsh-AK-H01/Detail (http://www.pgstools.com/servlet/the-6565/TCGT-21.51-dsh-AK-H01/Detail)

Also, have a look at his one which looks like the Ci1 square insert which is designed for cutting wood. Less than half the cost of the Ci1 replacement tips, but has to be purchased in packs of 10.
<O:p</O:p

http://www.pgstools.com/servlet/the-16399/15x15%2Csquare%2Ccarbide%2Cinsert%2Cinserts%2C2.5%2Cmm%2Ccountersunk%2Cwood-cutting%2C/Detail (http://www.pgstools.com/servlet/the-16399/15x15%2Csquare%2Ccarbide%2Cinsert%2Cinserts%2C2.5%2Cmm%2Ccountersunk%2Cwood-cutting%2C/Detail)

As suggested by F&E, there is going to be many other sources out there.
</O:p
<O:p</O:p
Neil

NeilS
23rd Oct 2008, 12:47 PM
Also, have a look at his one which looks like the Ci1 square insert which is designed for cutting wood. Less than half the cost of the Ci1 replacement tips, but has to be purchased in packs of 10.
<O:p</O:p

http://www.pgstools.com/servlet/the-16399/15x15%2Csquare%2Ccarbide%2Cinsert%2Cinserts%2C2.5%2Cmm%2Ccountersunk%2Cwood-cutting%2C/Detail (http://www.pgstools.com/servlet/the-16399/15x15%2Csquare%2Ccarbide%2Cinsert%2Cinserts%2C2.5%2Cmm%2Ccountersunk%2Cwood-cutting%2C/Detail)



Also found this one which is slightly smaller (14 x 14 x 2mm) and cheaper, but it is made of C4 micro-grain carbide which, according to another site, "is the most durable grade for saw blade teeth, and is usually found only on premium (wood saw) blades". Not sure how that thin 2mm cutter would stand up to rough knocks, but should be OK if fully supported as in the Ci1 design.

http://www.pgstools.com/servlet/the-16388/14x14x2%2C14-x-14-x/Detail

Neil

Cliff Rogers
24th Oct 2008, 08:42 AM
Interesting. :think:

Cliff Rogers
24th Oct 2008, 09:05 AM
There are 3 different sizes but they are all smaller than the square bit used in the Ci1.
http://www.pgstools.com/servlet/the-Carbide-Inserts-cln-Wood-Cutting/Categories

Frank&Earnest
24th Oct 2008, 10:03 AM
Don't understand. In your link there is a 15x15x2.5, isn't that thicker than the Ci1 insert, according to your previous post? BTW, the 12x12x1.5 is the one I got.

tea lady
24th Oct 2008, 10:09 AM
:cool: Very cool. They look like ones I could use for my pottery. :2tsup:Might get some to try. Could be a little side line making tools for potters. :U

Cliff Rogers
24th Oct 2008, 10:16 AM
Don't understand. In your link there is a 15x15x2.5, isn't that thicker than the Ci1 insert, according to your previous post? BTW, the 12x12x1.5 is the one I got.

Yup, I didn't see that one til after I said they were smaller.

The original in the Ci1 is 15 x15 x 2.2.

If anybody is interested in these, send me a PM, I have done a bulk order of the 15 x15 x 2.5 to save on the freight.

hughie
24th Oct 2008, 12:00 PM
Not sure how that thin 2mm cutter would stand up to rough knocks,

I reckon if the bed where the tip is to sit is flat and tip well secured then you should not have a problem. Most hobby turners probably wont have a problem I would think.

Thanks for the links

NeilS
24th Oct 2008, 01:50 PM
The more I looked at those carbide cutters the more they reminded me of something...that I couldn't quite recall... then I remembered the those Shelix planer cutterheads with those spiral rows of replaceable carbide tips...:doh:

This one.... http://www.byrdtool.com/

Not sure about the size compared to Ci1, but their price (by the box of 10 again) is a tad better. See bottom of page... http://www.byrdtool.com/planers.html

However, this does have me pondering how the Shelix uses these inserts to cut (not scrape) and how they might be adapted for turning tools other than hoggers. The immediate thought is perhaps something like a large bedan or at an off-set angle as a different style of skew (but without the usual acute or obtuse corners)...but angle of presentation and protecting the user from the rear facing edge would need some further consideration. Not sure how sharp an edge these C-4 carbides will take for a cutting action (although, those using the shelix planer heads are happy with the finish they are getting on difficult woods), but then the advantage of being able to rotate the cutter insert for another 3 fresh edges is appealing if the cutting/slicing action is OK.

Neil

Cliff Rogers
24th Oct 2008, 02:20 PM
Another good find, I'll leave that one to somebody else to investergate. :2tsup:

NeilS
24th Oct 2008, 02:21 PM
Hmmm... on second thoughts, having had another look at the images of those inserts, the cutting edge angle is quite obtuse and perhaps not suitable for the cutting/slicing action we prefer to use in wood turning. As for those thicknessers, they have a fair old grunt to be able to take off a 20" wide slice in one pass and a slightly obtuse edge is not going to make much difference one way or the other! Maybe when I get my tips (thanks Cliff) and rougher going I can experiment by flipping it over and seeing what damage I can do :o

Neil

jefferson
24th Oct 2008, 03:12 PM
The more I looked at those carbide cutters the more they reminded me of something...that I couldn't quite recall... then I remembered the those Shelix planer cutterheads with those spiral rows of replaceable carbide tips...:doh:

This one.... http://www.byrdtool.com/

Not sure about the size compared to Ci1, but their price (by the box of 10 again) is a tad better. See bottom of page... http://www.byrdtool.com/planers.html

However, this does have me pondering how the Shelix uses these inserts to cut (not scrape) and how they might be adapted for turning tools other than hoggers. The immediate thought is perhaps something like a large bedan or at an off-set angle as a different style of skew (but without the usual acute or obtuse corners)...but angle of presentation and protecting the user from the rear facing edge would need some further consideration. Not sure how sharp an edge these C-4 carbides will take for a cutting action (although, those using the shelix planer heads are happy with the finish they are getting on difficult woods), but then the advantage of being able to rotate the cutter insert for another 3 fresh edges is appealing if the cutting/slicing action is OK.

Neil

Neil, the helix cutters approach the wood at quite an angle, thus cutting instead of scraping. I've thought about replacing the head on my planer / thicknesser, but I already have 3 sets of blades, cost around $100 per set of 3.

Jeff

Cliff Rogers
24th Oct 2008, 07:52 PM
OK, 20 spoken for so far.

I'll let you all know when they come in what the hole size & bevel angle is.

rsser
24th Oct 2008, 07:57 PM
Thanks.

Much appreciated Cliff.

robutacion
24th Oct 2008, 09:57 PM
Thanks Neil, you are obviously doing also some "home work" on these issues, and those links you provided are a winner.

Yesterday, after you gave us the first lot of links, I start searching and did found extremely difficult to find inserts specific to timber cutting so, I've contacted PGS tools for some assistance.

This was my email;
To: sales@pgstools.com
Subject: Timber carbide inserts

Dear Sir/Madam,



I'm enquiring in relation to some timber carbide inserts you appear to produce.

I am looking for carbide cutters to make some turning gouges. The inserts that I'm looking for are exactly like your S-15-4 in appearance but I'm looking for 12mm and 16mm inserts if possible. I had great difficulty in work out what inserts you make for cutting timber, out of so many. Could you please assist me with the identification of the inserts you make specially for timber cutting?. Your advice on the best quality inserts for this purpose would be most appreciated. I'm also looking at inserts of the mentioned size but with a slight curve (radius) on the 4 cutting edges, do you make them, also?

What is the size of the "countersunk" hole? (for screw).



I understand that for most of the insert models, a minimum quantity order of 10 is required, so what would be the freight cost to me ( Australia ) for and order of 10, 20 or 30 inserts?



Your assistance with this matter would be most appreciated.



Regards

George Valentine

I was quite surprised when I got a response this morning and directly from the Company President Mr Billy Strawter, Jr.

This was their email response;
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Mr. Valentine –

Thank you for your inquiry. In response to your difficulty in locating the wood cutting inserts, I have modified the site to make it easier to locate these tools. You may find them here:

http://www.pgstools.com/servlet/the-Carbide-Inserts-cln-Wood-Cutting/Categories

At the time the only sizes we have available are a 12, a 14, and 15. Upon request I can get pricing on a 17. All are in millimeters. All the inserts have a radius on all four cutting edges.

I will have to get back with you on the size of the hole, as we have these made for us.

Since I do not have your postal code the best way to find shipping charges is here:

http://ircalc.usps.gov/

Package weight will be as follows, for 10 insert 1 lb, for 20 inserts 2 lbs, for 30 insert 3 lbs.

We ship international packages via the United States Postal Service as the are the most economical for international shipping.

Please let me know if I may be of further assistance.

Best regards,

Billy


http://f383.mail.yahoo.com/ya/download?mid=1%5f519887%5fABd9v9EAAFvmSQBzogFMIWJyJIQ&pid=2&fid=Inbox&inline=1

Billy Strawter, Jr
President









-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm pleased that they modified the web site overnight, is now a lot easier to find and see what they have for timber use.
I'm also interested on those 17mm inserts, they would be preferred for my 16mm HSS bar (tool recently made). The 15mm inserts can also be used on that tool without much "fuss". The 12mm ones would be ideal for my other 12mm HSS bar I purchase at the recent Adelaide Show. I will be enquiring about the prices for the 17mm inserts, on the cutting edge angle (grind) the radius degrees and the possibility for square (straight) cutters/inserts.

I'm waiting also for the answer of another major manufacturer/supplier of these type inserts so, we will see...!

I'm convinced that the cutters used by Craig on original design of the Ci1 & Ci2, were available already in the market, as normal blanks, I mean, inserts without any specific markings, even maybe without the screw hole (countersunk). Obviously, the manufacturer is not allowed to promote or sell these cutters as they are a patent/copyright design and configuration of Craig. If this is correct, it would make sense why we can't find them anywhere but Craig or his authorised seller(s). I have indeed invited Billy or even Craig on this same thread, a few post before, to shine some light on this matter, but never happen...!

I can understand why so much secrecy from the designer (Craig), as I know how it works when one try to make a living out of an original idea/invention on a commercial level. I still believe his tool combination is the best out there, despite the fact of many of us trying to "copy" it, for a variety of reasons, not all very sensible or economical.

Anyway, is all good fun and good practise so lets keep looking...!

Thank you also Cliff, for keeping me updated of the new finds and of your "bulk" order, I will contact you about it, thanks.

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

Grumpy John
25th Oct 2008, 06:54 AM
OK, 20 spoken for so far.

I'll let you all know when they come in what the hole size & bevel angle is.

Are these geniune Ci1 tips you're orderimg Cliff, if so won't the hole size & bevel angle be the same :??

jefferson
25th Oct 2008, 08:49 AM
From memory, the Easywood inserts are $14 each US. Roughly $20+ AUS. Not sure whether Craig gives bulk discounts but we can only ask!

Jeff

Frank&Earnest
25th Oct 2008, 11:11 AM
I have a suspicion we are running around in circles. IMHO these cutters are made in Germany (all metric!) and CPS is an American importer. At the moment I have not enough time to scratch myself, but will look into it ASAP. If I am correct, the bevel on the 12mm one is approximately (hard to be precise on a 1.5 mm thickness) 57 degrees.

robutacion
26th Oct 2008, 11:09 AM
Hi everyone,

Just a quick update on the PGS response on the 17mm inserts, as these will be probably the best option for my 16 mm HSS bar
If their inserts are as good as their customer service prompt responses, were are all in luck:D
Anyway here is the email response from Mr Billy himself.

George -

I apologize for the delay in getting back to you. We had a power outage
at our office yesterday.

I have added the 17mm inserts to the website, you can find them here:

http://www.pgstools.com/servlet/the-20278/17x17x2%2C17mm-x-17mm-x/Detail (http://www.pgstools.com/servlet/the-20278/17x17x2%2C17mm-x-17mm-x/Detail)

Postal shipping charges would be around $20 USD for thirty inserts.

Thank you for your interest.

Regards,

Billy

Cliff Rogers
26th Oct 2008, 10:23 PM
Are these geniune Ci1 tips you're orderimg Cliff, if so won't the hole size & bevel angle be the same :??

Nup, not the original, just look like they will fit.

I ordered these ones.
http://www.pgstools.com/servlet/the-16399/15x15%2Csquare%2Ccarbide%2Cinsert%2Cinserts%2C2.5%2Cmm%2Ccountersunk%2Cwood-cutting%2C/Detail

They are $5.52 US, postage on 30 of them is $29.80 US.

The original Ci1 tips are $14 US each & the freight on 3 & a chip deflector was $32.75 US.

Grumpy John
27th Oct 2008, 06:20 AM
Nup, not the original, just look like they will fit.

I ordered these ones.
http://www.pgstools.com/servlet/the-16399/15x15%2Csquare%2Ccarbide%2Cinsert%2Cinserts%2C2.5%2Cmm%2Ccountersunk%2Cwood-cutting%2C/Detail

They are $5.52 US, postage on 30 of them is $29.80 US.

The original Ci1 tips are $14 US each & the freight on 3 & a chip deflector was $32.75 US.

Cliff,
They look the same to me, my order still stands.

GJ

Frank&Earnest
27th Oct 2008, 11:58 AM
Ok, confirmed from the source. Have a look here: http://www.leucoaust.com.au/pro_cutters.htm

Cutters size 12x12x1.5, 14x14x2 and 17x17x2 are Leuco HL Board 05, for abrasive tropical timbers. Maybe I am a slave to stereotypes, but if a German firm with more than 50 years experience tells me they are the world standard in a particular mechanical field I tend to believe them.

The 12x12 and the 14x14 are $3.89 little Aussie dollars each, in boxes of 10. The Adelaide branch is out of 17x17 at the moment, can get them in. I'll pick up a box of 14s today or tomorrow and see if they have round ones, which would also be interesting. At the moment I am thinking the 17s are too big for what we want to do with them, but the possibility is there.

12mm square M 316 (marine s/s steel) bar cost me around $7 per 300mm length, and while I was there for $11 I bought also a metre of brass tube to make ferrules . At least I have something to cut that the Triton metal cutter can handle. :U

robutacion
27th Oct 2008, 01:24 PM
Wow Frank, that's some serious home work, well done.

I have manage to get the Leuco web address on Friday, I've send them an email specific about these type cutters, I'm still waiting for the reply, as we had the weekend in the way.
I'm glad that you had the conformation that they have the 17mm ones, no doubt the ones I want to use on my "super roughing gouge". The 12 & 14 mm will be ideal for the 12mm bar, and they are also of interest. You have the "advantage" to be in Adelaide and know where the store is, so if is not much of a trouble, I would be grateful if you could order a box of 10 x 17mm for me ASAP. If you are getting a box of each, 12 & 14 mm, I would like to request if you would share a couple of each to me, (so that I can finish also the 12mm HSS tool the same as the 16mm one). It goes without say, payments (my expenses) will be made immediately, as also the offer of you keeping a couple of the 17mm cutters, if you wish!:D

Would be also interesting and useful, if they have the ones with radius, so we all keep waiting for your update with excitement (interest).

Your source of those steel items, is also of interest to me, I maybe should get a 12mm blank from you for the cutters, and use the HSS one I got from the Adelaide Show, to make a BEDAN, that would be smart, huh?:U

Thanks for you help with these matters Frank, most appreciated!

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

<<<<<<<<ARE THEY HERE YET...?>>>>>>>>>:doh::no:

Cliff Rogers
27th Oct 2008, 02:03 PM
Ok, confirmed from the source. Have a look here: http://www.leucoaust.com.au/pro_cutters.htm

Cutters size 12x12x1.5, 14x14x2 and 17x17x2 are Leuco HL Board 05, for abrasive tropical timbers. .....

Good job. :2tsup:

I can't find a pic or drawings of the cutters on their web site.... do they have counter sunk holes in them?

Frank&Earnest
27th Oct 2008, 03:55 PM
Hi guys


George - I'll pick up the 14s and tell them to get the 17s in for you. They are at 17 Grove Avenue Marleston 8293 4422. PM me your addess and I'll mail a couple of 12s and 14s and a 300mm steel bar to you. The source of the bar is Surman Metals 8281 8455.

Cliff - the 12mm no, I have not seen the 14 and 17 yet, but does it matter? Not to bother threading through s/s steel I was thinking of using a flat round head bolt and a nut sunk under the bar. Of course, if you are looking for replacements for the original tool, these cutters might not be suitable.

robutacion
27th Oct 2008, 04:36 PM
Hi Frank&Earnest,

Thanks, PM sent!

Would you like to have a new handle for your tool, made out of the same wood as my "big mother"?. I can make you a handle with the same size and shape as mine (without the spare compartment, don't really need it!) and with whatever the ferrule you have for me to put on it (is only a 12mm bar so a large bought ferrule will do nicely), this would include the texturing and the finish, as mine! What you're reckon?:D

<<<<<<<<<<<< ARE THEY HERE YET?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> :U

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

Cliff Rogers
28th Oct 2008, 09:20 AM
:jacked:

I think we have 'hi-jacked' the Ci1 Easyrougher tool totally now.

I'm a tad embarrassed that Craig supplied the tool free of charge for a review & in an attempt to find cheaper tips for it, I've helped start a charge to copy it. :-

I have asked if DJ or can move all the posts about TCT tips to a new thread.

I also have some of the Vermec round TCT tips to try out but as yet, I haven't even had a chance to take them out of the packet & to get a photo of them. :rolleyes:

Look out for more TCT turning tips threads soon.

NeilS
28th Oct 2008, 10:12 AM
Ok, confirmed from the source. Have a look here: http://www.leucoaust.com.au/pro_cutters.htm

Cutters size 12x12x1.5, 14x14x2 and 17x17x2 are Leuco HL Board 05, for abrasive tropical timbers. :U

Good work Frank!

Neil

Frank&Earnest
28th Oct 2008, 04:48 PM
OK, here they are (pic attached). Yes the hole is countersunk, but there are bad news: the price I was quoted over the phone was the wrong one (either that, or they found out about this thread...:D) The actual price is 8.77 +GST retail. The name is also different from the 12s but I have been assured that it is the top of the range (purple colour box). Part of the problem is that they have a huge range, the catalog looks like the Yellow Pages book, the poor guys at the counter have no hope to know them all.

Jokes aside, I think they are changing prices on the run trying to keep up with the dive of the A$: the price I was quoted for the 17mm was actually less than for the 14mm, 7.79 IIRC. They are getting one box in from Sydney, they should have it before the week end.

Now the proof of the pudding will be in the eating, I'll go and mount one.

rsser
28th Oct 2008, 05:30 PM
Just to sidetrack for a moment, to the question of sharpening/reshaping:

A green wheel is recommended.

But would a drill-mounted diamond wheel do the job?

eg: http://www.carbatec.com.au/sharpening-tools/diamond-sharpening-tools-disc

Frank&Earnest
28th Oct 2008, 07:04 PM
If the 30 seconds of my test are any indication, Ern, steel pants are a more urgent requirement than green wheels. I put on the lathe a piece of ironbark that had eaten my carbon steel and HSS steel gouges like grissini and tried the rough as guts, hand shaped on the grinder, tool made with the cutter (pics). It went through it like a brick through a window. As somebody said, this is not turning, it is butchering. A chainsaw looks tame in comparison.

FWIW.

rsser
28th Oct 2008, 09:02 PM
LoL.

.. yeah, just want to know if I can change the radius. Don't want to buy another grinder is all.

Cliff Rogers
28th Oct 2008, 10:28 PM
Good one F&E. :2tsup:

Frank&Earnest
28th Oct 2008, 11:17 PM
Thanks. Would you like one to try it?

BTW Ern, Leuco has a sharpening service, don't know whether it is viable for such small bits.

robyn2839
28th Oct 2008, 11:43 PM
OK, here they are (pic attached). Yes the hole is countersunk, but there are bad news: the price I was quoted over the phone was the wrong one (either that, or they found out about this thread...:D) The actual price is 8.77 +GST retail. The name is also different from the 12s but I have been assured that it is the top of the range (purple colour box). Part of the problem is that they have a huge range, the catalog looks like the Yellow Pages book, the poor guys at the counter have no hope to know them all.

Jokes aside, I think they are changing prices on the run trying to keep up with the dive of the A$: the price I was quoted for the 17mm was actually less than for the 14mm, 7.79 IIRC. They are getting one box in from Sydney, they should have it before the week end.

Now the proof of the pudding will be in the eating, I'll go and mount one.
hi frank would it be possible to buy a few of these from you to try ,? and if so ,price plus postage to brisbane. thankyou........bob

robutacion
29th Oct 2008, 12:03 AM
Hi everyone,

Thanks Frank for letting us know about the latest on the inserts.

As always, my timing is bloody perfect, when it comes to invest money...!:((

I reckon a certain recent "volume" of phone calls and emails on their web site, has made them twinkle like a Christmas tree, huh?:doh:

Anyway, the box of the 14mm on the pic, has written (25) on it, is it the number of inserts in the box, and is that the number we have to buy, or is (10) as we originally thought, or something else?:? I'm getting the feelings that it is going to "hurt":C.

I'm glad that I've got an "army tank" as a gouge (shaft & handle) waiting for the cutter, if the 14mm is that "mad", imagine what the 17mm will do...!:o

Well rsser, according to Frank, Leuco has a large variety of cutters so, maybe is only a matter to identify those with radius, and order some, together with the square (straight) ones. Nevertheless, I believe any diamond sharpener is capable of sharp and re-shape (curve) the cutting edge. I'm actually waiting for an circular saw blades sharpener, I got on eBay last week, just to sharpen the various tungsten blades I use in diferent machines, inclueding the brush-cutter. This machine has a diamond disk to sharpen tungsten/carbide blade tips, and as soon as it arrives, I will look at a way to use it to sharpen and re-shape the inserts/cutters. On the other hand, if I didn't have this machine coming, I would set up a jig to hold these inserts against a diamond cutting surface, of any size or shape.

I also believe that some people is thinking that a tool with these type cutters, will allow 4 new sharp edges per insert, while this is correct, the number of times 1 (one) insert will allow to be rotated in the tool, is only 2, due to the simple fact that the insert will bet used half on the left edge, full on the front edge (facing the work) and half of the right edge, therefore only 2 rotations of the cutter are possible to access new/unused/sharp, cutting edges. I'm ok with it...!:D

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ARE THEY HERE,YET??? :no:>>>><ARE class=inlineimg title=No smilieid="59" alt="" border="0" src="images/smilies/no.gif" they <img yet??? here, /><ARE class=inlineimg title=No smilieid="59" alt="" border="0" src="images/smilies/no.gif" yet????<img here they />>>>>>>>>>>>>

Cliff Rogers
29th Oct 2008, 08:20 AM
Thanks. Would you like one to try it? ....
Maybe in a couple of weeks, I'm off to Proserpine tomorrow, I'll be gone for 5 days & that will take about a week to catch up when I get back.

When the ones I have ordered arrive, I'll swap you one for a side by side test.

Frank&Earnest
29th Oct 2008, 09:51 AM
Robyn: I looked on the white pages and Leuco is in your part of the woods also:
Leuco Australia Pty Ltd

(07) 3861 9688
61 Toombul Rd
Northgate QLD 4013

Try them first, if you have no luck PM me.

George: parcel sent. Don't worry too much about the 17s. If you do not want them anymore I will say that my friend got scared :D when they call me to say they have arrived from Sydney. I will look a bit of a tool myself :D but they can't complain, they had a lot of free publicity from this thread. Better still, I'll tell them that somebody will come and pick them up as soon as convenient, then it is up to you.

I have enquiried about radiussed tips, the guy at the counter could not find any but said that their sharpening/shaping service would oblige. Maybe a bulk order later on if all works well?

Cliff: :2tsup:

robutacion
29th Oct 2008, 11:13 AM
Hi Frank,

No, no my friend, I'm a man of word, I would never ask someone else to order stuff for me and then let them hang by a banana skin, no way...!

Where I got a bit scared, was when you advised us that the price was a lot higher and the fact that I saw (25) written on the box, making me believe that are 25 inserts in the box. With the new price, I can get 10 of the 17mm ones, but not 25 if that is the case.

Hummmmmmm, their sharpening/shaping services, could be an option for the used (blunt/chipped) ones , huh?

PS: and about my offer of the handle? are you interested? or you don't believe in a turner making a gouge handle for another turner?:D just joking...!:doh:

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

hughie
29th Oct 2008, 12:22 PM
Leuco, have a range of tips some are round I have shot an email off to them for more details. If that fails they have a branch not to far from me. So I will drop in and have a chat to them

Frank&Earnest
29th Oct 2008, 12:42 PM
Hi Frank,

No, no my friend, I'm a man of word, I would never ask someone else to order stuff for me and then let them hang by a banana skin, no way...!

Where I got a bit scared, was when you advised us that the price was a lot higher and the fact that I saw (25) written on the box, making me believe that are 25 inserts in the box. With the new price, I can get 10 of the 17mm ones, but not 25 if that is the case.

Hummmmmmm, their sharpening/shaping services, could be an option for the used (blunt/chipped) ones , huh?

PS: and about my offer of the handle? are you interested? or you don't believe in a turner making a gouge handle for another turner?:D just joking...!:doh:

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

Hi RBTCO. No, 25 is the type, like 05 for the 12s. The 5 refers to the "tropicals" range, I think. the boxes are all 10 pieces. Thanks for the handle offer, but I "don't believe in a turner making a gouge handle for another turner" :D... in other words, I'll experiment.

NeilS
29th Oct 2008, 03:45 PM
Just to sidetrack for a moment, to the question of sharpening/reshaping:

A green wheel is recommended.

But would a drill-mounted diamond wheel do the job?

eg: http://www.carbatec.com.au/sharpening-tools/diamond-sharpening-tools-disc

Yes, Ern, diamond in any shape of form will do the job. You then have to decide if you are going to apply the wheel to the insert or the insert to the wheel, clamping one or the other down.

Also keep in mind that a flat diamond plate (any size) will do the job equally as well, albeit a little slower...which may in fact be a good thing if you are just retouching the edge.

If power grinding, wear a dusk mask or equivalent. There is some risks from breathing too much of it, particularly if it also contains cobalt, although the amount we would be grinding may not be such an issue.

Neil

rsser
29th Oct 2008, 03:51 PM
Thanks Neil.

That's very helpful.

robutacion
29th Oct 2008, 05:20 PM
Hi RBTCO. No, 25 is the type, like 05 for the 12s. The 5 refers to the "tropicals" range, I think. the boxes are all 10 pieces. Thanks for the handle offer, but I "don't believe in a turner making a gouge handle for another turner" :D... in other words, I'll experiment.

No "problemo" Frank!

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

Cliff Rogers
30th Oct 2008, 12:07 AM
I grabbed a couple of photos of the Vermec round TCT tips that are used on their hollowing tools.

They are 8mm & 10mm.

I'll give them a try out over the weekend.

robutacion
1st Nov 2008, 01:31 AM
Hi everyone,

Those look mean hollowers Cliff, do they work well?

Anyway, I have some info (news) on the inserts issue.

From the USA, PGS Tools, I was offered a one off deal of 40 inserts (10 of each of the 4 mentioned sizes) for the following prices:
12mm & 14mm - AU$7.50 each
15mm - AU$9.50 each
17mm - AU$10.00 each
Apparently, their inserts have a small radius. I believe I can put up to 4 inserts in a normal envelope for about $1.00 anywhere in Australia.
I will consider this offer rather sooner than later, if I have some expressions of interest for some of these inserts, as I don't need them all, and have another box of 10 (17mm) arriving next week from Leuco - Adelaide.

Now the other interesting quote that I received today from Stark Tools (been waiting for nearly a week), has revealed, I believe, not only the origin of the original cutters, but also the best price for quantity. With this quote I received 2 PDF files, one with the inserts pics, and the other with a quote itself.
I have no problem in sharing those files here, so that you can make your own decisions about my "suspicions":D.
I don't have the financial means to buy in such quantities, nevertheless, 2 things we can get out of this, firstly we know where to get them from, and secondly, how much can be saved if someone has the capital to invest.
I'm no business man nor I want to go into business, but maybe someone will! free world...!

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

Cliff Rogers
4th Nov 2008, 07:53 PM
Hi everyone,

Those look mean hollowers Cliff, do they work well?....

Yup, they are a bit savage hand held, I'll do a thread on the tests that I did over the weekend when I catch up, I came home to 12 open jobs. :oo:

Maybe I need to go away for a couple of days more often. :D



Anyway, I have some info (news) on the inserts issue.

From the USA, PGS Tools, I was offered a one off deal of 40 inserts (10 of each of the 4 mentioned sizes) for the following prices:
12mm & 14mm - AU$7.50 each
15mm - AU$9.50 each
17mm - AU$10.00 each
Apparently, their inserts have a small radius. I believe I can put up to 4 inserts in a normal envelope for about $1.00 anywhere in Australia. ....

They are the ones I have ordered from.
I ordered 30 of the 15 x 15 x 2.5 & depending on when they hit my credit card, they will land at my place for about $10AUD each.

They shipped last Friday, I'll let everybody know when the land here.

Robomanic
4th Nov 2008, 08:16 PM
Hi guys,

For those in the East Melbourne suburbs, check out the Wantirna Market. I picked these bad boys up for $2 each from one of two stalls selling them. He also had a number of TC wafers that did not make it onto router bits at the carbi-tool factory. They are used but will be reground anyway. I only saw one of those ring tips, or there would be more in the photo :C.

robutacion
5th Nov 2008, 02:04 AM
Hi Cliff,

I will do a couple of those hollowers one day (another project...!):doh:
Yes, you are absolutely right about the place that I got the quote from, those were the first people we manage to get some info from, and as soon as the 15mm inserts become visible on their web site, was then when you made the order.
I was offer a freight discount for 4x4 = 40 inserts, which represent possibly in value, about CT to a $1 less.

I would like to close the order, and use the offered discount, but I don't have the financial means to pay over USD$300 all by my self. In reality, I was hoping that other forumates would jump at the opportunity to get a few each, as they did with you, but no one has gave any expression of interest as I require on my previous post. I should also remind everyone that the 40 inserts represents the 10 of each of the 4 most common used sizes (12 - 14 - 15 & 17 mm).

I would suggest that, if anyone wants to try these inserts, to let me know ASAP, so that I can put the money together for the order, before is too late.

Robomanic,
I wouldn't be too excited yet about those inserts, most of what you find around are for metal cutting, and modifying, re-shaping and re-sharping that type of material, unless you got all the proper equipment, it will be an absolute pain in the posterior. Have a go with them and lets us know the results, please!

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

turnerted
5th Nov 2008, 05:30 PM
RBTCO
If your purchase of tips goes ahead I would be interested in say four of the 14mm size .
Ted

Cliff Rogers
8th Nov 2008, 10:24 AM
My TCT tips have arrived.

They are T10MG (grade) made in Germany

15x15x2.5mm with 30░ angle from verticle (Actually what turners would call a 60░bevel)
It has a 6" radius so is very slightly domed.
The hole is a tad over 6mm & is counter sunk.

It will go on any of the tool holders that I already have including the Ci1.

I got 30 of them & they worked out at $10.20 each landed at my place.

They will pack flat on a piece of card & slip into a standard envelope to post anywhere in Aus for $0.55 & I reckon I could probly get away with 6 in a standard envelope.

Cliff Rogers
8th Nov 2008, 11:50 AM
26 spoken for already, that leaves just 4 for me, I should have ordered 40. :D

rsser
8th Nov 2008, 11:53 AM
You could try 'Due to changes in the exchange rate, imported TCT bits have risen in price by 40%' ... :wink:

rsser
8th Nov 2008, 12:04 PM
btw, not having a Rougher handle, can someone suggest the size of the platform one of Cliff's tips should sit on?

TIA

robutacion
8th Nov 2008, 12:46 PM
Hi everyone,

Cliff, PM sent.
I though that your 30 would be a good start, as I was going to order 40 (10x12,14,15,17mm) from the same supplier, to top up other interested people but I didn't have much member interest (appart from 1x4x14mm inserts). I have 2x12mm, 2x14mm from Frank, a box of 10x17mm coming from Leuco, and the 3x15mm from you so, I'm not going to invest money I don't have to order any more from the USA.

What I can do, if you want, is to pass on to you the offer I had for the purchase of the 40 inserts I've mention previously. If you have the money to invest, the deal is all yours (I will PM with details), you can then keep some more for you and sell the other ones, as you did with this lot, I'm ok with it!

rsser, if I understand you question correctly, the bar/shaft should be (at least) 2mm less narrow than the insert outer edge. I have not yet measure the base (bottom) of the 15mm inserts, but I reckon is about 12mm, because the insert thickness is 2.5mm. If the insert was 2mm, the base would be about 13mm. Now that Cliff has the inserts, he can easily measure and confirm the measurements.

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

Cliff Rogers
8th Nov 2008, 05:02 PM
btw, not having a Rougher handle, can someone suggest the size of the platform one of Cliff's tips should sit on?

TIA

They are about 13mm acros the flat on the bottom.
The Ci1 is made from a 1/2" square bar & the tip bed has a slight tilt back toward the handle.

Skew ChiDAMN!!
8th Nov 2008, 05:14 PM
26 spoken for already, that leaves just 4 for me, I should have ordered 40. :D

I s'pose I'd better not put my hand up for... oh... say 4? :innocent:

Studley 2436
8th Nov 2008, 07:54 PM
Interesting that you guys are going to carbide for turning. Turning wood that is. As said carbide tips are typically used for metals. They are used for stuff like PVC and Fiberglass also but typically for PVC at least they just use whatever is in the machine lots of coolant and get away with it.

It will be interesting to hear what you find out with these things. Something I can point out though is that typically the edge of a carbide tip has a radius on it. It isn't sharp! That's OK for steel and the high forces generated, turning wood is different. Your garden variety tip starts to work at half a mm depth of cut and .15 mm feed per rev. Usually they will go to around 5mm DOC and 1mm/rev. There are tools that will do much more than that as well. You can see the geometry is pretty well worked out. The Sanvik catalogue for tips and tools is 1200 pages. Half of that or more is tips. There are thousands of these jiggers. You might find that a "finishing" tip is better for you than a "roughing" tip as the finishing one will work at 0.1mm Depth of Cut.

For making bars see if you can get your hands on some 1040. It's a better grade of low carbon steel.

Studley

Cliff Rogers
9th Nov 2008, 10:49 AM
Yeah Studley, we have been over this but... there are now versions of TCT made for cutting timber too. Stick T10MG into a search engine & have a bit of a look at the results.
The grain size in the tip is different for the timber cutting ones & they are now sharp, well, sharper that the metal cutting tips.
They use them for saw tips to make the saw last longer & they now have them for planer heads as well.
I have found that they work fine for roughing out but then I go back to my HSS tools to finish the job.

Cliff Rogers
13th Nov 2008, 03:16 PM
They should be starting to turn up in your mail by now, I've had the first reported sighting from SA already. :2tsup:

Grumpy John
13th Nov 2008, 03:32 PM
They should be starting to turn up in your mail by now, I've had the first reported sighting from SA already. :2tsup:

Just received mine in the post today, thanks Cliff :2tsup:.

tea lady
13th Nov 2008, 04:32 PM
They should be starting to turn up in your mail by now, I've had the first reported sighting from SA already. :2tsup:

:yipee:

Sawdust Maker
13th Nov 2008, 08:58 PM
I received a package as well :happyb:
now what are they for :rolleyes:

PS Thanks Cliff

rsser
13th Nov 2008, 09:02 PM
Arrived today; many thanks Cliff.

robutacion
15th Nov 2008, 01:56 PM
Hi everyone,

As previously mentioned, I was one of the people to got some of these 15mm inserts from Cliff, and I notice the small radius but also the fact that the very "tip" corners of the cutting edges are not sharped, while the rest is, and very...! I haven't yet put this 15mm tip into its passes, even tough the tool end id finished, I just haven't had the chance. Well, my question is, how much interference with clean cutting, these "blunt" corner tips, will make? or does actually improve the cutting and timber finish capabilities? Off-course, I will have all these questions answered, when I test the insert, but I was just wondering if any of the fellows that got these inserts have notice it and already used them and are able to give their opinion on the matter!:D

rsser
15th Nov 2008, 02:31 PM
There's a tiny amount of rounding over on mine on the vertical of the corner but the top at that point feels just as sharp as the rest.

NeilS
15th Nov 2008, 04:49 PM
Mine also arrived safely. Many thanks Cliff.

I attempted to mount an insert on some of my existing 'tip' tools, but none of them are going to do the job. So the inserts are going to have have to wait until I can find something that will hold them properly before I can test run them.

Awaiting with great interest to read how others go.

Neil

Grumpy John
15th Nov 2008, 05:07 PM
Cliff,
The tips made short work of this fugly piece of very dry SO. Managed to stall the lathe a few times though. First time for the GPW chuck I bought from Jim Carroll at the T&WWW show, gripped like a pit bull and didn't let go :2tsup:

robutacion
16th Nov 2008, 02:36 AM
Mine also arrived safely. Many thanks Cliff.

I attempted to mount an insert on some of my existing 'tip' tools, but none of them are going to do the job. So the inserts are going to have have to wait until I can find something that will hold them properly before I can test run them.

Awaiting with great interest to read how others go.

Neil

I Neil,

Well, why don't you ring that steel supply fellow that Frank provide previously here, and get a 12 or 13mm stainless or not steel bar, about 1 foot long?

Just a thought...!:D

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

EX's Timber
16th Nov 2008, 11:45 AM
Cliff,
The tips made short work of this fugly piece of very dry SO. Managed to stall the lathe a few times though. First time for the GPW chuck I bought from Jim Carroll at the T&WWW show, gripped like a pit bull and didn't let go :2tsup:

You sure that's Silky Oak :no:, looks more like a Cedar to me :think:

Studley 2436
16th Nov 2008, 11:50 AM
Maybe a good way to go with getting a holder is to buy a metal working tip tool holder and weld a handle on to it? If there is an insert then there is a holder for it.

Regarding sharpness with carbide think of it as a controlled collision. It's not like cutting with steel. The tip and the material come in contact and the weaker/softer material is deformed and removed. They aren't really that sharp at all as it's likely that if they were really sharp the edge would be chipped and broken off by the cutting process.

Studley

NeilS
16th Nov 2008, 12:53 PM
Neil, Well, why don't you ring that steel supply fellow that Frank provide previously here, and get a 12 or 13mm stainless or not steel bar, about 1 foot long?



Maybe a good way to go with getting a holder is to buy a metal working tip tool holder and weld a handle on to it? If there is an insert then there is a holder for it.


Hi Studley and George - both good suggestions, thanks.

The painful truth is I'm much more comfortable with wood than metal. My welding is obscene and my general metal working skills are not much better, so I put off anything to do with metal work for as long as possible knowing how much trauma awaits me.

When the need exceeds the dread I'll probably have a go.

Neil

robutacion
16th Nov 2008, 01:23 PM
Hi Studley and George - both good suggestions, thanks.

The painful truth is I'm much more comfortable with wood than metal. My welding is obscene and my general metal working skills are not much better, so I put off anything to do with metal work for as long as possible knowing how much trauma awaits me.

When the need exceeds the dread I'll probably have a go.

Neil

Neil, fair enough...!:roll:

Studley 2436, I think that you're are thinking too much with your "steel world" in mind. There are major differences in the carbide tools made for both applications, from the inserts (sharpening, shape, size) to holders, handles, etc. etc.
What you saying is quite correct for steel work, but not so correct for timber work. Unless is impurities/defect on the wood cutting insert, no wood I know would "chip" a carbide cutting edge. Screws, nails, wire and/or stones embedded in the timber, is another thing all together. Carbide/tungsten tipped cutting edges, just do not chip with timber alone! Sharpness in those tips is very important, I've seen very sharp carbide tipped blade cutting a good size nail, without damaging the cutting edge, while the same carbide tipped blade was totally destroyed when trying to go through the same size nail, after the cutting edge was blunt!

This is obviously a general rule, and exception are always to be accounted for, as the compositions of metals are changing and improving all the time. There are already certain metal compositions capable of cutting through metal or timber without a sweat or any damage, those are very expensive and not yet readily available to the "Jo blow", but one day they will...!:D

No sharpening...? bugger, taking all the fun out of cutting tools...!

Cheers
RBTCO

Studley 2436
16th Nov 2008, 06:02 PM
It's because Carbide is brittle that it doesn't cope that well with being sharpened to to a really sharp edge. It will be the same in wood as steel just that you have to cut at higher speeds to get it to fail than you do in steel.

I can't say much about wood compared to steel but while it is softer it might be more abrasive than steel is. Nobody has really done much work on this.

When I say chip I am talking of the damage that happens to a carbide tip when it is cutting. Should speeds and feeds be too high the tip can be damaged. It may not be possible to see this easily with your eye. It is due to heat build up in the tool. Thermal shocks can cause chipping on the flank and overload cratering to the top. Going too slow you get plastic deformation, basically the tool has it's flank rubbed off. In wood I doubt you would see much plastic deformation but who's to know.

Studley

rsser
16th Nov 2008, 06:15 PM
Good call Studley.

Grumpy John
16th Nov 2008, 06:56 PM
You sure that's Silky Oak :no:, looks more like a Cedar to me :think:
Yeah, you're right DJ it might not be SO, but definitely not cedar. To be honest I forget what it is, yeah yeah I know brand your blanks because you WILL forget what they are eventually :doh:. I've had these pieces for over 3 years. I'll bring it along on the 14th.

Cliff Rogers
16th Nov 2008, 10:45 PM
Heeelllloooooo.... Studley....... what about TCT tipped saw blades for timber????? :?


That doesn't look like SO to me either John, I have nearly finished a White Cedar bowl & it looks very similar to that.

Studley 2436
16th Nov 2008, 11:49 PM
It's all speeds and feeds Cliff. The obvious thing is that each saw tooth spends only a percentage of it's time cutting. The rest of the time it is spinning in an unloaded condition back to have it's next turn.

A lathe tool doesn't get to share the job around like that. Importantly there are many grades of carbide that perform very differently. So no way to tell you for sure. One place I worked just used tips meant for low carbon steels. The silly thing is that they did all their work in Stainless, Brass and PVC. Got away with it too, although the tool life on Stainless wasn't that good. Mind you the tool life was much better when we ramped up the speeds a fair bit.

Juicy stuff this. You might have noticed I really like Carbide tools.

Studley

tea lady
17th Nov 2008, 09:04 AM
Mine came today.:cool: Son came into the bed room all excited. I think he thought the package might be for him.:rolleyes:

robutacion
18th Nov 2008, 02:21 AM
Hi everyone,

I finally go a box (10) of the 17mm inserts, I've been waiting for some time. They end-up costing just under $10 each with freight to me.

I was disappointed that they didn't have the countersunk hole on them, as this normally allows a bigger (stronger) screw to hold the insert in place. This will be overcome quite easily, by changing my normal set-up.

So, as soon as I recover from my last go at drill and tap a 16mm HSS solid square bar, for the fitting of the 15mm insert, I will try to finish the tool once and for all. I've got plenty of timber waiting for the monster gouge...!:D

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

Frank&Earnest
18th Nov 2008, 07:55 PM
Question: would a 12mm bar be too small to support that 17mm insert, considering that the centre is not weakened by countersinking and the sides take less stress than the front?

robutacion
18th Nov 2008, 11:38 PM
Question: would a 12mm bar be too small to support that 17mm insert, considering that the centre is not weakened by countersinking and the sides take less stress than the front?

Well, I can't think why not, even tough I would prefer to use 15mm bar. According to the steel supplier who supplied the 12mm stainless bars to you, they do not have 15mm but only 15,88mm or 16mm (imperial, metric). When asking for cost, I was given a quote of $23 + GST + freight for 1 (one), or $17x2 + GST + freight for 2 (two). Ouch...! Yeah, I had something in mind but, when I worked out about $55 to get 2 x 1' bars here, I gave it a miss! sorry.

I will put a couple in a envelope for you to try, no "problemo"!:D

Cheers
RBTCO

Frank&Earnest
19th Nov 2008, 10:50 AM
Thanks George, but that's not what I was thinking:wink::

- I have three spare 12mm ss bars and plenty of ferrules
- NeilS has no bar and no enthusiasm for metalwork
- you have no bars but you have the skills and the tools to drill and tap them and make handles (no need to make them for double sided bars).
- we all have our inserts to try: 14mm for me, 15mm for Neil and 17mm for you.

What about I mail bars and ferrules to you, you make three tools, keep one for your trouble, and mail one back to me and one to Neil?

Neil of course will buy us a beer when we have the next shed meet :D. Is anybody willing to host one, anyway, or the last one at my place was so awesome that nobody feels up to following that act? :D

Studley 2436
19th Nov 2008, 11:59 AM
that was the one that I didn't get to Frank! I had a good record up until then.

Just a thought guys but you could buy a boring bar that comes with all the fiddly stuff done for the insert. Then you just have to put a handle on the end of it. Screws to hold the insert come included. Should be able to get something for $50 or less. Maritool (http://www.maritool.com/Indexable-Tooling-Boring-Bars-Steel-Boring-Bars/c50_142_109/index.html)(URL) have some and a good reputation. If you want to get the absolute exact thing you want Sandvik or Kennametal will sell it. Might cost more though.

Studley

Manuka Jock
19th Nov 2008, 12:34 PM
Is there any reason why any or all of these insert shapes cannot be used on wood ?

http://www.pgstools.com/servlet/the-template/productsearchbypicture/Page

hughie
19th Nov 2008, 12:40 PM
s there any reason why any or all of these insert shapes cannot be used on wood ?

http://www.pgstools.com/servlet/the-template/productsearchbypicture/Page
[/QUOTE]

They are designed for machining steel and will have a small radius on the cutting edge. With that they will not have the sharpness of tips ground specifically for timber.

But if buy a green grinding wheel that is designed to grind Tungsten tips then you can modify them to suit your self. Cost is pretty well the same as Ali Oxide white wheels, i f you do alot of grind ing you will notice the wear rate is much faster than ordinary wheels

Studley 2436
19th Nov 2008, 12:51 PM
I still reckon it would be interesting to try a regular tip on timber. You might find the tips intended for finishing on something abrasive like cast iron work.

The differences between the many tips is the profile on the top designed so the chip breaks. The radius on the edge is there to improve tool life. A really sharp edge on carbide tends to get rubbed off easily on steel or even aluminium.

Studley

rsser
19th Nov 2008, 04:20 PM
These are the specs on one of the boring bars on Studley's Maritool site:

Shank diameter is .625 , Bar length is 7.5 inches
Minimum bore diameter of .72 inches
Bars have a flat on the top and bottom for easy alignment
Boring bar includes torx wrench and 2 insert screws (1 spare)
Uses series CCMT 32.5XXXX and CCMT 09T3XXXX insert
Also uses CCGT and CCET inserts, insert tolerance is the only difference
5 deg lead angle allows you to profile up to a 90 deg shoulder

So I'm right out of my depth here, but assuming that the Ci1 rougher handle is the best design here, the above does not have the slight backslope on the mounting section Cliff has mentioned.

Any other significant differences?

Studley 2436
19th Nov 2008, 04:48 PM
CCMT means
C = 80║ square (oblong if you like)
C = 7║ clearance angle on the front
M = tollerance class of the insert. I think at that size the tollerance is 0.05 mm on the inscribed circle, the thickness length of flank etc.
T = insert type. This one cuts on both sides of the face but not on the underside and has a countersunk screw.

Lots of info to get you going rssr.

It's called the sandvik coromant turning grades. I have a copy but at 500k for the PDF too big to post here.

Wouldn't you know it I can't find where I got it from Sandvik Coromant is a big company. Anyway if you want a copy say so and I will email it to you. It is two pages and explains what all the letters mean and so on.


Something I think you guys should consider is a tool like a TNMG. It is a triangle that has a neutral face. So it can be turned upside down to use the other side. So one insert has 6 sides to cut with. The thing with these though is they are designed to be used in a neutral holder which tips the cutting edge down a bit instead of being square.

Studley

Frank&Earnest
19th Nov 2008, 06:55 PM
I don't want to be a wet blanket, but after using one for a couple of weeks, and finding out for myself what a square insert can and cannot offer (not that I doubted , but we all have our quirks, don't we?:wink: ) I am not going to spend a lot more time experimenting with shapes and sizes.

I agree with : it is a sledgehammer, don't expect it to be wonderful at cracking nuts. It is not much worth using it on soft woods, the need to clean up the mess reduces the slight speed advantage. On very hard wood the time advantage is substantial and worth learning to master the butchering at a reasonable level. For proper turning, we all seem to agree that square inserts can not replace the traditional tools. I take it that round inserts work for hollowing: one thing I would like to experiment with is using a square one mounted at 45 degrees for hollowing cross grain. Should work like a spade drill, shouldn't it?

Studley 2436
19th Nov 2008, 07:08 PM
Frank I have a few lying around so if you would like to give them a go I don't mind bringing them around.

I am interested to see what they do on timber.

Studley

Frank&Earnest
19th Nov 2008, 09:01 PM
Good, something else we could do at a shed meet... if we organise one! Now the weather is not a deterrent like it was last time.

robutacion
20th Nov 2008, 02:42 AM
Thanks George, but that's not what I was thinking:wink::

- I have three spare 12mm ss bars and plenty of ferrules
- NeilS has no bar and no enthusiasm for metalwork
- you have no bars but you have the skills and the tools to drill and tap them and make handles (no need to make them for double sided bars).
- we all have our inserts to try: 14mm for me, 15mm for Neil and 17mm for you.

What about I mail bars and ferrules to you, you make three tools, keep one for your trouble, and mail one back to me and one to Neil?

Neil of course will buy us a beer when we have the next shed meet :D. Is anybody willing to host one, anyway, or the last one at my place was so awesome that nobody feels up to following that act? :D

Sorry for the late reply Frank.
I'm good mate, send me whatever you want with some info on whatever you would like to see done, no problem at all. Just a thought, would Neil be prepared to get me a 15.88mm or 16 mm stailess bar at just over 1' long, as exchange for doing his complete tool? I am not very keen in having to replace $100 +++ of special drill bits and special taps, just to do one hole, there is if they do not brake before the whole is finished, bugger me...!:doh: I would then do some other cutting tool on the other end to match the 16 mm HSS bar, like a super Bedan, or something else I would come up with:?.

Get the stuff up to me, I will take care of it from here.

Cheers:2tsup:
George

robutacion
20th Nov 2008, 02:44 AM
CCMT means
C = 80║ square (oblong if you like)
C = 7║ clearance angle on the front
M = tollerance class of the insert. I think at that size the tollerance is 0.05 mm on the inscribed circle, the thickness length of flank etc.
T = insert type. This one cuts on both sides of the face but not on the underside and has a countersunk screw.

Lots of info to get you going rssr.

It's called the sandvik coromant turning grades. I have a copy but at 500k for the PDF too big to post here.

Wouldn't you know it I can't find where I got it from Sandvik Coromant is a big company. Anyway if you want a copy say so and I will email it to you. It is two pages and explains what all the letters mean and so on.


Something I think you guys should consider is a tool like a TNMG. It is a triangle that has a neutral face. So it can be turned upside down to use the other side. So one insert has 6 sides to cut with. The thing with these though is they are designed to be used in a neutral holder which tips the cutting edge down a bit instead of being square.

Studley

Any pics Studley?

Cheers:2tsup:
RBTCO

Frank&Earnest
20th Nov 2008, 10:15 AM
Sorry for the late reply Frank.
I'm good mate, send me whatever you want with some info on whatever you would like to see done, no problem at all. Just a thought, would Neil be prepared to get me a 15.88mm or 16 mm stailess bar at just over 1' long, as exchange for doing his complete tool? I am not very keen in having to replace $100 +++ of special drill bits and special taps, just to do one hole, there is if they do not brake before the whole is finished, bugger me...!:doh: I would then do some other cutting tool on the other end to match the 16 mm HSS bar, like a super Bedan, or something else I would come up with:?.

Get the stuff up to me, I will take care of it from here.

Cheers:2tsup:
George

That's the reason I asked whether you thought that my 12mm bar would be sufficient to hold your 17mm insert, so I could give you one to finish your tool without mucking around with HSS. If you think you really need the 16mm one what I said does not make sense. I can't speak for Neil, sorry for meddling. :-

hughie
20th Nov 2008, 10:32 AM
I take it that round inserts work for hollowing:

They do and can be quite useful




one thing I would like to experiment with is using a square one mounted at 45 degrees for hollowing cross grain. Should work like a spade drill, shouldn't it?
[/QUOTE]

Something like the pics below?

Frank&Earnest
20th Nov 2008, 11:41 AM
That's quite a complex tool, Hughie, thanks for showing. What I had in mind was extremely simple, just having a V recess instead of a __ recess in the square bar and screw the square insert at 45 degrees so that the cutting edge is a triangle instead of a square. Just as a spade drill bit, really.

NeilS
20th Nov 2008, 12:01 PM
Just a thought, would Neil be prepared to get me a 15.88mm or 16 mm stailess bar at just over 1' long, as exchange for doing his complete tool?

George and Frank - what an offer...:wave:

Bar or beer, I'm very happy to go either way so long as everyone is happy. I don't have enough expertise to comment on the merits of the 12mm vs 16mm SS bar for George's 17mm inserts, so just let me know if it's bar or beer (or both :) ).

George - no need to turn a handle for me, that's something I can do!

Sorry I can't offer my current shed for the next Adelaide shed meet, had to move my current lathe out last night to fit in my new lathe... just not enough room for two lathes let alone a half dozen extra bodies, BUT when I finally get my new shed I'll be throwing a shed warming and you will all be invited.

Neil

Frank&Earnest
20th Nov 2008, 01:14 PM
Ok, sorry for hijacking this thread, we'll be good boys now. :wink: Neil, George, Studley, we can sort ourselves out by PM and come back to this thread later to show our technological breakthroughs. Or pics of boozing people... :D

robutacion
20th Nov 2008, 02:37 PM
That's the reason I asked whether you thought that my 12mm bar would be sufficient to hold your 17mm insert, so I could give you one to finish your tool without mucking around with HSS. If you think you really need the 16mm one what I said does not make sense. I can't speak for Neil, sorry for meddling. :-

Just before we go into "underground" mode, I believe reasonable to answer your question, providing some technical explanation of why I believe the 12mm bar wouldn't be ideal for the 17mm inserts. Some of my comments are the result also of testing the 12 & 14mm inserts on the 12mm bar and the 15mm on the 16mm bar, and this what I think;

1- The insert base should be seated on a surface equal or just under, and on the 17 mm, the measurement is 14.3mm.
2- when using a narrow bar on a wide insert, the lateral (running) cuts can make the bar to twist (turn) toward the cutting direction as the gravity pivot (balance point) becomes unstable and the whole tool will twist down as soon as the flat bar face lifts and turns into its edge by the forces of the cutting tip (insert) working on the timber, so basically, the closer the edges of the bar running on the tool rest are from the edges of the cutting edge, the more stable the tool will be.
3- The bigger bar (heavier bar) will provide a better balance to the whole tool. The extra weight and the extra strength of the 16mm Vs 12mm bar, was well noticed on my tests made with the 14mm insert on the 12mm bar and the 15mm insert on the 16mm bar. Identical handles on both tools, same piece of wood used for testing all inserts (old gum, hard as rock, making the tungsten blades of the drop saw smoke, and leaving black burning marks on the cut surface). Ok, maybe the blade was not 100% sharp but you got the idea, huh?:oo:
4- Both handles are bedded with anti-vibration grout, and was quite noticeable the extra vibration and the lack of stability on the small tool when put into deep and side cutting. The extra weight of the 16mm bar could be put into good use by, making the tool a little longer, with an extra 2" on the cutting side (bar out of the handle) and another 4" inserted into the handle to counterbalance more evenly. The handle in this case could have another 3" to 4" of length, and if the handle is made with the same design as mine, the hand grip on the back of the handle, should maintain its dimensions and location. There would be no great need for extra handle thickness, as the ones made are strong and thick enough!:D

This is what I think, others are allowed to disagree, or have different oppinions, I'm OK with it!:):)

Cheers
RBTCO