Which one - canoe/kayak/pirogue?

[waky53]

I have previously used a kayak or 2 & had great difficulty with the steering of same going almost round in circles or at least big zig zags.
I have also wanted to build my own boat for a while & have been researching the net, deciding that a stitch & glue would be the way to go.
My question is what to build? At first I was thinking about a small pram type dinghy, but have changed my mind to a canoe type with a double paddle. I have admired the JEM eno & touring TV pirogue, the eureka canoe & the chesapeake wood duck among others.
I think I want a more open boat with some deck but not a fully enclosed kayak.
To be used on calm rivers, lakes, backwaters etc (not on the sea), for gentle relaxing & sightseeing.
It needs to be light & able to carry on top of the AWD & so not too long. I thought a max of about 13'-14'
Any suggestions?

[b.o.a.t.]

G'day Waky

Just trying to get an idea of the issues before making suggestions...
What sort of kayaks did you have trouble with direction ?
If you don't know the model, can you describe them ? ....
eg round bottom, lots of rocker, pointy ends rather than vertical stem & stern ?

Also, how good is your balance ? Is 24" wide enough? or would more be needed for comfort/security ?

cheers
AJ

[waky53]

Thanks for the reply AJ

A couple I tried were more like a racing kayak, very pointy, but even ones with a more vertical stem etc were a little difficult to keep straight.
I remember being on a canoe rogaine up near Renmark where they tried everything, swapping to a less pointy craft & even a tow rope to try & keep me straight but I had to give it away as I was holding the other team mates back. I just paddled around in a backwater until they came back & picked me up. At the finish I couldn't even get out of the canoe I was so exhausted. (The finish was upstream to where they had left me). That was when I was just a beginner though.
My balance is pretty good & when I am in a boat with a bit of a keel I keep straight OK.

Dave

[Boatmik]

On AVERAGE ... whatever that means (!!!) ...



Kayaks have to be paddled with the designed number of people, but there are a couple with big cockpits that are more flexible in use. Smaller cockpit kayaks can be supremely seaworthy in rough water in the right hands.

Pirogues can be really fast to build but a good pirogue won't have the performance and ease of paddling of a good canoe. But you can carry a bigger payload and seat people where you want. Their surface area makes them heavier than a canoe.

Canoes are less stable than pirogues but the upside is better directional stability and less paddling effort and less chance of catching the wind. They do have a lower payload than a pirogue.

This is all assuming well designed boats with proportions that are normal for their type.

If you want to travel distance 13 or 14 ft is on the small side. If you are concerned about getting them on the car roof a longer boat allows you to get one end up and then slide the boat forward. Most good plywood kayaks and canoes are pretty light these days anyhow ... particularly if they keep the amount of fibreglass down - it is the thing that makes the biggest difference between the weights of modern boats. There seems to be the mindset that 'glass doesn't add much weight, but it is wrong.

Modern boats also have very little framing. The pirogue might need a bit because of its big flat panels.

A number of designers are specifying plywood boats that are fully glassed on the outside and some fully glassed on the inside (sigh). I would be doing it if paddling down the coast of Tasmania too ... but for most people's boats it is a huge overkill.

Best wishes
Michael

[TK1]

Hi Dave,

I'll give you my perspective from a kayaking perspective more than a building one, but hopefully will help you decide...

Firstly, if you are having trouble tracking and paddling, have a look at doing a skills course. Aust Canoeing ( http://www.canoe.org.au/ ) lists clubs and courses, so may be worth finding a half-day course near you to learn proper technique, as well as safety procedures, especially if you are off paddling by yourself. Proper technique will help counter the exhaustion too.

If you can paddle correctly and efficiently, choice of craft will become easier (and open up more options). Instructors will also offer advice on type of kayak/canoe/pirogue to get. Even try a couple of plastic ones from shops before you start building.

I'd go for a double-bladed paddle, for efficiency and easy of technique, rather than a single-bladed canoe paddle.

As for length, don't limit yourself just to shorter designs. When paddled correctly, a shorter kayak will generally track less well than a longer one. I regularly carry a 5-metre kayak on roof-racks with no trouble (and I've seen it done on small hatch-backs). You can make cradles that extend the support cradles out from the roof-rack position to hold it better.

Stitch and glue will be easy enough to get on the roof, just go easy on the epoxy. I used far too much on my first kayak, and it's as heavy as a plastic boat. Current one I can lift one-handed over my head - same size, similar ply, just a lot less epoxy and lighter glass.

As for what to build? JEM's pirogues and decked canoes are great (Hairy Mick should appear soon to espouse their virtures) and also look at the CLC Mill Creek 13. They are flat-bottommed but you can add a mall timber keel or skeg to help tracking further.

That's enough ranting for now...come back and ask questions, get opinions on designs, etc and we'll all help you out. If I think of any suitable designs I'll let you know.

Regards,
Darren

PS Don't take the paddling lesson advice the wrong way, it certainly can be the boat, number of people, the way it's loaded, etc. But if you have had problems in a few boats - and to prevent injury, etc - it's worth investing in a couple of lessons.

[Dave Brewer]

I have a Waterman 13 which is stable,easy to paddle with a double,and carries a fair load.It was a fun build,and even though I sheathed the exterior with dynel,it's not overly heavy.Can be sailed if desired-I plan on having a go at making a sail soon.I'm also considering making a timber bracket to take an electric outboard for fishing.Anyway,here's the link:
http://www.selway-fisher.com/Opcan15.htm#WATERMAN
Cheers,
Dave.

[Fair Dink]

How about Jim Michalak's original TOTO. Its a bit unconventional, having a transom but its wide at about 28'' and a quick build out of 2 sheets of 6mm ply'

For two people, or touring, there's the Larsboat, which is a TOTO with a 30'' plug in the middle and an optional deck. tt can also, form the basis of a sailing trimeran (Trilars)

These are not fast, serious boats, but a lot have been built over the years for recreational purposes and the v-bow seems to be pretty forgiving in terms of trim etc.

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/toto/index.htm

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/larsboat/index.htm

[waky53]

Thanks Dave & Dink for the additional choices.
Some of them use lots of panels which would mean a lot more S&Ging, but they have nice shapes. I like the look of the Toto, I think it is closest to what I am looking for than most of the others.

Regards Dave

[TK1]

Dave,

Toto looks like a good choice for a fishing platform or exploring boat. I'm warming to it too...another to add to the list :-)

Plenty of room to add an esky behind the seat position, and carry gear. You could add holders, etc along the coaming for binoculars, drink holder, fishing rod holder, etc. (Obviously adding a little weight).

A nice little boat. Should track well, or you could add a keel/skeg to help. Looks like you'd need a longish paddle so you're not reaching over to the side with each stroke.

Remember to post lots of pics here, whatever you choose.

Regards,
Darren

[Boatmik]

But will blow around a fair bit more than a regular canoe or kayak.

Fishing platform though or non windy locations when not going big distances ... a very useful and flexible boat.

A rooftop knockabout.

MIK

[waky53]

But will blow around a fair bit more than a regular canoe or kayak.


Is that because of the pointy bow being out of the water?

[Boatmik]

Canoes and Kayaks endeavour to be as close to the water as possible consistent with staying above said water.

A canoe will have a lower topside than a pirogue and most kayaks will be lower than the canoe.

Additionally a well designed canoe or kayak usually has a lot of hollow in the entry which acts as a big fin at each end of the boat.

http://www.storerboatplans.com/Balsacanoe/balsa%20stem%20detail%20a.jpg

If you have ever paddled a canoe that blew around badly then it didn't have enough of this hollow.

This is why transom sterned rowboats often have a skeg.

You can imagine how two fins like on the balsa canoe (http://www.storerboatplans.com/Balsacanoe/Balsacanoe.html) above would get a huge amount of BITE.

Pirogue doesn't have this sort of refined shape. Putting the stem down in the water is bad also ... because it will increase the drag. So a pirogue is between a rock and a hard place. But geez they can be quick to build.

Or some can.

Michael

[b.o.a.t.]

G'day Dave
Would be hard to go wrong with either the Wood Duck 12 or Mill Creek 13 from clcboats.com

Never paddled one, but the couple of people I know who have had Mill Creeks like them.
Big hole in the deck makes them easy to get in & out, can be fitted with a rudder
if you really can't get the steering thing worked out, stable for relaxed touring, &
reasonably easy to put together. Woodenboat #136 & 137 (1997) carried plans &
instructions adequate to build from.

The Wood Duck would be a bit easier paddling with the 4th panel & lowered sheer.

Built in 4mm with 2oz glass sheathing, it should be easy on & off the car roof -
probably in the 12-14kg range.

cheers
Alan J.

[Fair Dink]

Here are some alternatives fron Graham Byrnes (an Aussie ex-pat)

The Moccasin has the fine entry and exit described, but blends into a 'pirogue' section in the centre.


http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/pad.htm