Hercus Model 0 [Archive] - Woodwork Forums

SurfinNev

11th November 2008, 09:01 PM

Good and bad news. Good news is it arrived today. Bad news is there is damage. The pallet it was put on for transport was pine and very old. Some of the timber was well passed its use by date. The pallet broke and the mill had tilted to the left. It was bolted but with only 6mm bolts and nuts and they ripped through the timber. Delivery driver had it roped to gates on truck to stop it tipping over completely.

It doesn't look like it has toppled completely over so I may be in luck as all feeds seem reasonably smooth apart from the Y axis which has a little binding in one spot each revolution. .The tray is badly bent on the left side but this could be from being caught on something during lifting (bent downwards and not inwards as you would expect if it fell) which could account for the bolts on that side (rear of pallet) being torn out of the timber and that part of the deck broken. Appart from the knobs on the hand wheels being bent as well, I haven't spotted any other damage yet.

Not happy with the seller and his poor choice of pallet so will have a word with him regarding damage and see what he says. I think I'm entitled to some compensation for at least the cost of a new tray.

Overall I'm impressed with the old Aussie made mill. Never seen one of these in real life before and they appear to be extremely well made. With all the other things I have going at the moment including builing a camper trailer for my brother this may take a while to get up and running as I intend to completly strip it, clean, repaint, new headstock bearings and whatever else is needed to make this thing as close to new as I can.

Nev

Anorak Bob

13th December 2008, 09:33 PM

Hello Nev,

I've owned a No.O mill for about 3 years and realized during that time that it's quite a capable little machine as long as it is used carefully. Having the vertical head and the ability to switch from horizontal to vertical milling mode in only a few minutes is a real bonus.

I partially dismantled the machine not long after I bought it. Basically, I removed the table/knee assembly. The table surface wasn't real flash, so I took it to shop, recommended to me for the quality of their work, for surface grinding. Problem was, it was fly cut not surface ground and the finish was appalling. It took several hours of hand lapping on a surface plate to remove the cutter marks. If you need to go down this path, take heed.

The machine was overpainted in bright blue paint when I acquired it. I stripped all the painted knee components back to bare metal. There was some rust and a lot of discolouration from coolant on the unpainted slide surfaces. I used a product called Corrodip, made here in Perth, which worked beautifully in removing the corrosion and staining. I refilled all the previously filled cast surfaces with auto body filler, primed then painted the parts Hercus Vista Green with Spies Hecker spraying enamel.

Then I put it back together because I was impatient and wanted to use it. Then it all went pear shaped.

I was cutting something with the backgear engaged when suddenly the machine made a loud groaning sound and then the spindle suddenly stopped rotating. This wasn’t an electrical issue.
The cast iron cone pulley had seized on the spindle. Here’s why.

You will notice a grease nipple on the pulley. There are also grease nipples for the countershaft bearings and another five nipples on the knee and table feed screws. On my mill there is also a orange Dymo label inside the door screaming “USE OIL ONLY”. Which is what I did. ( You need a pom-pom type oiler. Alemite sells them for around $30 ). Unfortunately, someone previously had pumped grease into all these fittings. The grease in the pulley oil hole had hardened and prevented oil from reaching the spindle. Running the machine with the backgear engaged for ten minutes spelt disaster.

Removing the spindle wouldn’t normally be too hard. The procedure is covered in the the Hercus mill handbook. This book also covers the subject of preloading the bearings. I had a bit more trouble extracting my spindle given the seizure. The damage was limited to some galling in a couple of places on the spindle. I set the spindle up in the lathe with a four jaw chuck and a fixed steady and by using a dial indicator and a hard flat stone was able to remove the high spots created by the galling. I cleaned everything and reinstalled the spindle. It all works fine. I did not replace the spindle bearings. That is another story and relates to the bearings in my 1969 ARL.

I replaced all the grease nipples and use Mobil Vactra 2 for all lubrication other than the spindle roller bearings where I use Mobil DTE Heavy Medium oil.

If you are interested I can tell some stories about the trials and tribulations of running the machine on single phase and using the vertical head.

Take care.

Regards Bob.

neksmerj

14th December 2008, 07:36 PM

Hi Bob,

Reading through your Post, I was more than interested to read that you used Hercus Vista green spraying enamel. I presume this is the same colour that Hercus painted the 260 lathe.

When you approached Spies Hecker, did they have that paint colour in stock, or did you have it colour matched from a sample?

Do Spies Hecker have a colour chart for spraying enamel?

Ken

Anorak Bob

14th December 2008, 10:23 PM

Hello Ken,

The colour "Vista Green" was what Steve Durden at Hercus said the colour was called. I've noticed quite a variation in the green paint used on the 9" and 260 lathes and on their accessories. I've got no idea as to who manufactured the original paint.

The shop where I purchased the paint offered a colour matching service, free of charge. Most of the places where you might buy paint will have colour fan decks which enable you pick a colour that is close then the fiddling starts. I’m sure you’d know all this given your occupation. Three blokes had a go at trying to match the colour of the change gear cover that I had taken along as a sample. It wasn't that easy because it's a dirty green. Given that the paint was going to be used on the mill and that my intention was to repaint the entire machine, some slight variation did not bother me.

I painted the knee assembly and put it back on the mill. The rest of the mill has been shabbily painted with a brush in a garish bright blue. I feel uncomfortable looking at it.

The green ARL is a another matter. Whilst there a some parts such as the saddle and apron that need to be repainted, the rest of the lathe is not in bad nick. The machine has had one previous owner . I picked it up 3 years ago.

The Spies Hecker enamel was past it’s use by date when I wanted to paint some accessories for the green lathe. Ended up buying a litre of enamel from another shop where they too had gotten pretty close to the dirty green. I scrounged some yellow and red tint in a couple of Vegemite jars and spent a couple of hours tampering and I reckon I’ve got a pretty good match.

If you where repainting an entire lathe then a standard colour or combination of standard colours ie. Paula’Southbend Nine, makes a lot of sense and its easily repeatable.

Hope this answers your questions.

Regards Bob.

mgtoolmaker

19th December 2008, 09:48 AM

Hello SurfinNev
After two years searching for a small well made mill, I picked up a Hercus Model 'O' Mill a few weeks ago. Basically in good condition, very little wear and easily repaired damage to the tray and 'X' axis lead screw. Missing the Hercus angle plates, the original 3" vice and the slotting head. Got the long arbor, outboard bearing, vertical head, dividing head and tailstock. Needs a good clean and already in bits to do it. Had to disassemble it to get it off the truck, down the path to the shed. If I did the post correctly, there will be a happy snap
regards
mgtoolmaker

SurfinNev

24th December 2008, 11:26 PM

Bob

Thanks for the reply and the tip about corrodip. I'll be looking for some of that. My table also needs regrinding so am getting that done early next year. There's a couple of deep markes in the table where it looks like a cutter dripped out while it was going. I would love to hear about your single phase expriences and operation of the vertical head.

mgtoolmaker

I got the original Hercus vice with mine but not the dividing head. Pics of yours would be good to see.I think the slotting attachment would be a very rare item.

Perhaps we can have a Hercus sub forum for the mills as well. Do either of you have the serial number and are they metric or imperial? Mine is metric and OLM288 I think, but will check to make sure. Look at top of mill under the overarm for the number.

Nev

bitza500

25th December 2008, 12:37 AM

Hi Mad hercus Mill owners,you are more and welcome to add your machine to the Register as it is a HERCUS Register and so long as it has Hercus on it why not join up as I can put in your user name and also put beside Mill owner
How does that sound ???

all the best Derek

Anorak Bob

25th December 2008, 12:11 PM

Hello Nev,

The Corrodip works best warm. And it eats into concrete!

If your machine is like mine it would be fitted with an ASEA ½ hp star wound 3 phase motor. I don’t have 3 phase power connected to my house. I tracked down a cheap Chinese single phase, flange mount, capacitor start motor and bolted it on. The machine ran well but I wasn’t fond of the way the capacitors were half heartedly held onto the motor with a nasty lightweight aluminium strap. The whole motor had a nasty lightweight look to it, so when one day I could smell burnt plastic and found that one of the capacitors had split open and was exuding electrolyte, I had no qualms about replacing it.

The replacement was a new TECO ½ hp capacitor start motor. This cost about $230. It’s great that these motors are all built to a standard frame size and bolt straight on. The TECO is a much longer motor than the original ASEA . It also starts abruptly making a bang when the slop in the mill drive train is suddenly taken up. These mills have a fibre gear which is driven by the steel motor gear.( Make sure that the 3 screws securing the fibre gear to the countershaft are tight. The motor requires removal to do this.) I had images of this gearing being stripped suddenly by the starting torque of the TECO. This led to motor no. 3.

I found a ½ horse capacitor start ASEA motor but this was the next frame size up and it was also a base mount model. I purchased a slice of 200 mm diameter aluminium bar and machined an adapter plate to enable mounting the motor in place. The motor shaft also required turning down in size and a new keyway cut. The motor ran o.k. It didn’t start as violently as the TECO but for some reason the mill made a disturbing noise when running on the highest pulley speed. It sounded like the fibre gear and the motor gear were unmeshing!! This may have had something to do with the belt tensioner. This was unnerving enough for the TECO to be refitted.

Motor no. 4. I managed to get hold of an ASEA ½ horse power 3 phase delta wound motor. This was also base mount but the same frame size as the original factory installed motor. If you have a close look at ASEA’s flange mount body casting you will notice that it is a base mount casting with the base milled off. Which is what I did. The cast iron flange bolts straight on and hey presto all you need is a phase converter. Back to TECO again where I purchased an FM50 Fluxmaster frequency inverter. Perfect. Now I have slow start, variable speed, adjustable braking, reverse and more all on one keypad. And the TECO motor’s still in the box if needed.

My vertical head runs hot. The heat appears to be generated by the friction of the oil seals. I have replaced the seals with new ones and the problem persists. I have spoken with Steve Durden at FW Hercus regarding this and he told me an interesting tale back from his days as an apprentice regarding his solution to the problem. If you speak to Steve , ask him about it. I am interested to here from you or any other mill owners about this problem. I have thought about making some sort of labyrinth seal to overcome the friction issue. Yet another project!
The locating dowels are important for the accurate alignment of the head. When I acquired my mill they were not fitted. Someone previously had tried to tap one of the dowel holes and snapped the tap off inside the hole. Using a small grinding point in a Dremel enabled me to remove enough of the tap to install a dowel. The Hercus Operators Instruction Book, available from Hercus via their Ebay store, spells out the correct installation procedure for the dowels if not already fitted.

An aside. When you start using the machine, lock the feeds other than the one you are using, My machine might be older than yours because it was not fitted with “Kipp”
locking handles. I have subsequently fitted these handles. The table is light and it does not take much for a cutter to disastrously take up any backlash.

Have a great Christmas
Regards
Bob.

mgtoolmaker

14th January 2009, 04:56 PM

Hello Surfin Nev,
My mill is serial number OLM-478. The dowel pins for aligning the vertical head that Bob refers to are socket head shoulder screws on mine. I don't know if it is original or a refit but it is so well done.
I have found an AC drive that appears to take star or delta configurations and I am pulling in a few favours from my electrical engineering buddies to see if this is correct and if it suits my machine. Will post outcomes. I will have a go at putting a photo up in the next few days
regards
mgtoolmaker

mgtoolmaker

9th February 2009, 11:01 AM

Hello fellow Hercus 'O' mill owners,
A short progress update on the mill. The day it arrived was one of the wettest in ages and the gravel driveway could not take the weight of the engine crane to unlaod the ute. So plan 'B' used and take it to bits on the back of the ute, rain still beating down and all, carry it into the shed one bit at a time. The cross slide screw and handle assembly first, followed by table and cross slide saddle complete and then the knee assembly. One of the studs was stubborn and a bit of brute force (followed by grief counselling) was required to get it out. The motor next and then the column was split from the foot. The foot stayed on the base when it was lifted off the pallet. It took about an hour with a friend. Man is that column heavy..............
On the repair side, the tray has had some panel beating with a 4lb hammer and now looks a treat. The cleanup used degreaser then a wipe down followed by steel wool and cutting compound. The paint is now shiney and reasonable again, I will touch up as needed but do not intend on doing a repaint for a while. I need to make some bits. Fortunately the machine still has the original transfers and has come up well. The column is back on the foot and the knee is ready for a trial fit. I have straightened the bent lead screw and made the replacement handwheel extension for long travel. Hope to have the rebuild done in a few weeks, the machine has done very little work almost all of the original machining marks on the slides are visible. Back to work now, more later, fixing the lube system so there is not a repeat of Anorak Bob's drama.
regards
mgtoolmaker

Anorak Bob

9th February 2009, 02:44 PM

"and made the replacement handwheel extension for long travel."
Tell me more MG, you've got me interested.
Bob.

mgtoolmaker

9th February 2009, 03:46 PM

Hello Anorak Bob,
The machine as purchased had been either used as a parking bollard for a forklift or it was dropped on its side at some time. The small finger sized extension on the handwheel was folded double against the rim of the hand wheel. I had to loosen the SHCS's on the end of the table that hold the endcap, leadscrew, handwheel, bush and dial in place. I wound the badly bent assembly out from the lead nut. I took off the handwheel, dial and bush and then put the assembly under a press to straighten the lead screw. I had to remove the displaced metal, a crease really, from the outboard end of the lead screw so as the end cap could be removed after the first straightening. Back under the press, some work in the lathe, under the press etc, etc. It is pretty close to straight now with approx .018" TIR. All the bend was at one end and it was sharp, the threaded portion is dead straight.
The new handwheel extension is a very suave turned brass affair now, longer than the original by 10mm. It is still elegant but not as fine, the minimum diameter is 6mm, the original looked like it was 4mm. Easier on the fingers now. Also it was press fit like the original. I have a photo will post when I find the cord for the camera.
regards
mgtoolmaker

Anorak Bob

9th February 2009, 09:54 PM

Hello MG,

It's a good feeling when you fix something that was knackered. Handy when you have a lathe and press to help you.

There are often desirable machine tools offered for sale on Ebay but unfortunately for me, most of them are "pick up only" from Eastern States sellers. Whilst the cost of transport would be hefty, the spectre of damage during collection and transit is what puts me off. Also, purchasing an item based solely on a couple of photos has worked reasonably well for the odds and ends I've picked up so far, but an expensive machine is something that really needs to physically inspected and that's where it grinds to a holt.

Reading about how you had to dismantle your mill to move it reminds me of my moving saga. I received a phone call from Fiora Machinery, Hercus agents amongst other things, informing me that they had a mill for sale and did I want it. I asked my wife if she minded another lump of cast iron appearing in my shed. Her response was "get it if you want but I'm not helping you move it! " Her comment was based on a previous experience where I enlisted her assistance to move my long bed 9 inch lathe into the shed. Just when it started to rain she said it was too heavy! Nice.

It took me roughly three and a half stressful hours hauling the thing on planks and bits of pipe uphill and through a sandy building site in the back yard before I had it inside the shed. The biggest fear was the mill toppling over. The building site has become a building and the sand, brickpaving. Just ready for another acquisition!!

It's all good fun.
Regards Bob.

mgtoolmaker

10th February 2009, 04:30 PM

Hello Bob,
I was actually in Fiji when I committed to buying the mill. I took a punt, the price was right and when I asked a colleague where the dealer was, he replied it was where his bandsaw was. He inspected the mill for me and organised for it to be held till I got back from the tropics. I still owe him a beer. Remember, always go to the tropics when the weather is perfect and you will have a perfect time. Swim from one end of the pool to the bar, have a drink, swim back to the palm tree, back to the bar, this time underwater etc etc. The knee is now in position and the safety switch in the door is more than likely tonights job. It was the only wire cut in the disassembly. I have the exact replacement cable ready to go in. FYI, the mill came 1500kms by road to get to my place and when the semi arrived, 26 hrs after the money cleared, the driver just arrived and wanted to know if my daughter could get it off the truck, I wasn't in town and it was very funny at the time. The phone call, "dad, there is a really big truck with this box the size of the shed, and the driver, he like expects me to get it off the truck for him".............Apart from some additional creasing in the tray by strapping, it was extremely well packed and screwed down to a pallet. I will have a crack later today to load a photo, yes it is fun.
regards
MG

new_guy90

15th February 2009, 11:41 AM

wow thats a rare find! i heard they were only sold to the government. we had one at school but i never used it, did it come with its vertical head? looking on www.lathe.co.uk they dont have much info i emailed tony and told im about the miller and hercus shaper at the school, im sure he would be happy to talk to you about it. nice find it will look really nice in the workshop :2tsup:

Patrick

mgtoolmaker

16th February 2009, 09:54 AM

Hello Patrick, Nev, Bob,
Yes it is a rare find and it did take a lot of finding. I started looking for a Bridgeport about two years ago, missed a good one and kept looking but with more options once I found Tony Griffiths excellent website. I sent him an email also and given I have taken the pictures of mine OK, hope to add a bit of detail to his website. Not sure if it will be like the FJ where everyone owned or knew someone who owned a Holden at the time but there must be a staggering number of apprentices who learned basic machining skills on the Hercus mill at a trade school. I learnt on a Deckel FP-1 and for the big work on a Huron. We had a small Hardinge toolroom lathe, a massive Blom grinder and a cranky little Repco surface grinder. I was spoiled for choice

I am glad as the size of the Hercus suits the work I am planning to do. Last weekend I fitted and test adjusted all the slides and cross travel handwheel is going on tonight. That leaves long travel and the motor. The long travel was extremely bent and even though it dials up close to perfect after a lot of work, it will take a good deal of fiddling to get a perfect fit. It is a lot of fun and tests dormant trade skills.

The vertical head is complete and assembled but all of the fasteners are loose. The lip seals seem as though they are busting out but they do not look damaged or swollen. Hey Bob, any info on the vertical head seals welcome.

Regards
MG

mgtoolmaker

16th February 2009, 04:26 PM

Gents,
Hopefully this time it will work and a photo of the mill as purchased will be attached somewhere,
regards
MG

Anorak Bob

16th February 2009, 09:56 PM

Hello MG,

Your mill looks good. At least it's not painted royal blue with a 6 inch brush.

The vertical head on my machine runs hot, hot to the point that you can't touch the spindle if it's been run non stop for fifteen minutes at 500 rpm.

I dismantled the head when I acquired the machine and replaced the original lipped oil seals which I assumed were the cause of the heating. The new nitrile seals generated the same level of heat. I tried the seals minus the garter springs but there was no noticable heat reduction.

There is no significant heat present when the seals are removed. .

I have discussed this issue with Steve Durden at Hercus and he can recall that the machine he used during his apprenticeship ran hot. I imagine that bearings can cope with reasonably high running temperatures but it would be nice to arrive at a solution to the friction problem that also retains oil. I had a brief look on the net earlier and there might be the possibility of using a teflon seal. Here is one site I Iooked at http://www.epm.com/metal_ptfe.htm.

I need to pursue this but I am keen to hear from both you and Nev when you run your vertical heads.

And MG, I'd love to hear about your experience with the FP1.

Regards
Bob.

new_guy90

17th February 2009, 08:23 PM

I started looking for a Bridgeport about two years ago, missed a good one and kept looking but with more options once I found Tony Griffiths excellent website.
MG

big difference between that Hercus and a Bridge port........... man after seeing the CNC's a bridge port just looks crap.......... there is no hope for me i will just have to make my own CNC bridge mill and lathe :((

what plans for restoration are you thinking of for the miller?

Patrick

mgtoolmaker

18th February 2009, 03:16 PM

You are right Patrick, there is a big size and specification difference between a Hercus and a Bridgeport. Plans, initially to get it clean and running, then a good set of tooling and essentials. A power feed and improvements to the micrometer dials will probably be the first major changes. Given I still have to work for some cash, this may take a few months but the restoration I have done so far is fun and has been quick. I worked as a CNC programmer many years back on Makino and Okuma mills and lathes, mostly with Fanuc controls. You can make a lot of 3D precision swarf very quickly on a CNC. I have limited access to a Bridgeport for the bigger work that will not fit on the Hercus. I miss the quill feed on the Bridgeport head, maybe a good project for a Hercus sized one.
Attached is a photo of the replacement handwheel extension and another of the mill, cleaned up and ready for the knee.
regards
mg.

new_guy90

18th February 2009, 08:57 PM

looking sweet :2tsup: i will be watching intently at this thread

Patrick

mgtoolmaker

20th February 2009, 10:19 AM

Hercus mill persons,
I did a trial fit of the long travel screw last night and was pleased the straightening has worked so well. From approx 1/2" runout it is now lurking around .010" TIR. The thing that has me stumped is the amount of float it is exactly one revolution or 5mm in the case of my machine. The diameter that goes through the end cap on the table terminates in a shoulder against which the inner headed bush of the micrometer dial goes. There is either no clearance clockwise turns or exactly 5mm anti clockwise turns when fully assembled. I can only think there must be a missing bronze washer behind the endcap, so concealed from view, that sits between the pinned boss on the lead screw and the back of the cast end cap. Do you have a washer lurking underneath on yours?? There was none when I pulled mine to bits but this is the most likely fix for the problem. I am also going to machine the diameter with the two keyways down by .006-.010" so as the boss fits better and the final runout is controlled. Any comments appreciated ??
regards
MG

Anorak Bob

23rd February 2009, 11:58 PM

Hello MG,

On my machine there is nothing between the pinned collar or boss and the table end cap. Bear in mind that my mill has the serial number OL- 8 so anything could have changed over the years. Yesterday, I motivated myself to install a phosphor bronze bush in the table end cap to remove the .007 "radial play that had been bothering me. I have 8 thou backlash in the feed screw and nut.

Wear on the thrust faces of the screw i.e. the collar and end cap will contribute to the backlash but in your case it does sound like something is missing. In the parts list for the mill there is listed a "bush for the table screw 10L0317" along with a "collar table traverse screw10L0314". There are no illustrations accompanying the parts list which makes identification tricky. Making a bronze thrust washer to fit between the pinned collar and cap makes a lot of sense and should resolve the problem.

Regards Bob.

mgtoolmaker

27th February 2009, 09:47 AM

Hello Bob,
Short story, I machined the thrust washer up and made it +.005 to bed in / lapp out when it was assembled, couldn't get the final size right after I had machined it. The step length varied when I put the end cap on incorrectly and after using some brute to get it to turn. Looked closer, the collar had actually sheared the pin out so the impact must have been a beauty, I could see the small crest of the remaining rivet in the shaft, just peeping from under the collar. Collar now removed. 4mm pin will be reamed to 3/16" and a silver steel replacement riveted in. Then the fiddle with float at the end cap. But this way I am fixing the actual problem, not putting in something that may move under load. Will keep you up to date, wife's comment, glad you are having fun and have got one in good order, would hate to see one that was a mess.......
MG

mgtoolmaker

8th April 2009, 05:01 PM

Hello Hercus mill owners,
Just received my motor back from the rewinders, it is now star and delta with 6 wires coming into the terminal box. The VSD will fit on a treat now and convert 240V single phase input to 240V 3phase output for the motor. Given I do not alter the speed setting too much i should not lose any torque. It cost $70 to do the mod in suburban Melbourne. Will probably go for a powerflex 4M drive, have to work out the model number for it now and save up of course.....
regards
mg

mgtoolmaker

8th May 2009, 05:01 PM

Fellow Hercus mill "O"wners,
Mr Rudd has just bought me the Powerflex PF40 Variable Speed Drive that I needed for my Hercus milling machine. Now my mill will work on single phase and I feel so stimulated because of this
mgtoolmaker

blackfrancis

8th May 2009, 05:35 PM

Sounds like the No O is also feeling stimulated :)

new_guy90

8th May 2009, 08:07 PM

nice so your making chips now eh

Anorak Bob

8th May 2009, 09:49 PM

Hello MG,

Sounds like you are nearly there. I meant to ask this question after your previous post when you said the rewinder was able to convert the mill motor wiring from star to delta.

Does your mill have a factory fitted coolant pump in the base and if so, did you consider having the pump motor rewired so that it too could run off the VSD?

Regards Bob.

mgtoolmaker

11th May 2009, 04:34 PM

Hello Bob,

I opened the access plate in my base cabinet and found a void with goo stabilized wood shavings and nothing else. The wiring diagram I have says "if fitted" and there is a mark up over that part of the ladder as though it is not there. So no coolant for me yet. The hole in the splash tray has a domed plain plug closing it which is another clue I have no coolant.

The VSD I got is capable of doing the main motor only, not two different motors. The current draw will go from 1.1A to 1.1 x 1.73 = 1.9 amps in my case and the power and torque will remain close to original even though it is 240V 3 phase from 240V single phase. You need to be careful with mixing drives and motors because drives are designed to do either

multiples of identical motors at the same time with a single drive

or

a single motor per drive (and if they have to talk, you need a PLC)

It is costly when you get it wrong as well. On a coolant pump, I would probably look at 240V single phase replacement and compare costs.

I saw the pictures of your vice it looks good.

regards

MG

Anorak Bob

12th May 2009, 12:05 AM

Hello MG,

If I had spent a bit more time thinking about how a vfd could run two motors, one of which may not always be running simultaneously with the other, I would have realized it wasn't going to work. It's a shame, because the pump is a nice bit of gear. What's a bigger shame is not having three phase power connected when I had the supply cable to the house and the meter relocated a decade ago.

You fortunately acquired the dividing head and tailstock when you purchased your mill. I didn't but was lucky enough to be able to purchase the main body casting of the dividing head from Hercus a couple of years ago when they were getting rid of their mill spare parts. I also picked up the 3 division plates. Nothing else. No spindle, no worm and wormwheel, no cast iron mounting bracket, nothing. Luckily, Fiora Machinery in Perth have the head and tailstock attached to a display No.0 in their showroom and another bloke had a head that I photographed and measured. Steve Durden came to my rescue on numerous occassions with much needed advice.

Making the bits and pieces I needed took a considerable amount of time. The bracket shown in the attached links started off as a large chunk of 4E cast iron that I purchased from Bohler Uddeholm who obligingly, partially cut through the bar to make my life a bit easier. When you have some leisure time, pop your dividing head apart and see what's inside.

I've nearly bowled over the tailstock and if you are interested I can post some photos.

Regards Bob.

mgtoolmaker

12th May 2009, 11:51 AM

Hello Bob,

I am impressed and that is top class machining and yes, I would like to see the tailstock. Also if you have time, I would be interested in the hole patterns on the dividing plates as I have only one not three. It should be a straight forward job to make the other two. I will get the camera out and forward some of the clock photos to show you some of my work.

In regard to the coolant pump, you may be able to modify it as a capacitor start and therefore single phase. From what I have been told, a refrigerator motor is an example of this. The mod itself is relatively easy and apparently robust but not suited to a main motor or a drive/feed motor. Given this is effectively a non critical motor (it doesn't matter if it pulses or varies in speed a bit) a cap start may be a good thing to investigate.

One job I want to do is make a collet adapter for the dividing head when I get to taking off the little chuck. Ditto for a better way to hold the cutter in the vertical head. On the vertical head, I have done some sketches for a quill feed on the head like a late Centec. It won't be a big drama and I reckon that the heating problems will be cured along the way. I will have to get the old mechanical designers hat out for that one.

Have you ever heard of a slotting head out there that we could get to and measure ??

best regards

Michael

Anorak Bob

12th May 2009, 11:45 PM

Hello Michael,

My first indroduction to using a lathe was in 1965 at high school. I had less than no idea. I remember resorting to using a file to remove the tit on the bar end, left as a result of not being able to set the tool at center height. That was back in the days when teachers were allowed to give you a clip under the ear and guess whose ear got clipped for the fancy filework. I fooled around with a Myford ML7 at WAIT (now Curtin University) in the early 80's while there as a student and then bought a model A 9" Hercus about 6 years ago.

I have attached some images of the dividing head tailstock which is my current project. You might recognize some of the features coming to light in the photos. On a little mill with a little 6" rotary table, some of the setups can become a challenge. You and Nev will surely find out.

You might need to guide me through the coolant pump conversion to capacitor start, single phase in a bit more detail when you have the time. Using the pump hasn't been high on the agenda because a large percentage of what I have machined on the mill has been cast iron. I use a big ShopVac to suck up the swarf.

I will photograph the division plates on the weekend and attach them to a private email. The reduced photos posted here would not be of much use.

Funny that you should mention the slotting head. Another project on the simmer. Amongst the old mill parts I obtained from Hercus, was a casting that mounts on the mill in the same manner as the vertical head. It turns out that the first version of the head was not offset and this casting housed the spindle. I was going to try and use this casting as part of a slotting head based on the drawings contained within the mill owners manual. I have drawn a section through this casting with my intended spindle shown as a basis for discussion with Steve Durden regarding bearing preload. The casting accommodates larger tapered roller bearings than those found in the offset head.

I will attach some photos of the casting and drawing in another post.

You need to provide a bit more information on your plans for a quill mounted spindle. I should hope this incorporates a fine worm feed!

All the best
Bob.

Anorak Bob

17th May 2009, 09:03 PM

Hello Michael,

Following is the information regarding the Hercus dividing plates as promised.

I imagine that you have plate No. 1 which was supplied as standard.

Dividing plate No.2 has 16, 20, 31, 41 and 47 holes on side 1 and 18, 25, 37, 43 and 49 holes on side 2.

Plate No.3 has 20, 35, 51,57 and 63 holes on side 1 and 32, 36, 53, 59 and 61 on side 2.

All plates have the holes drilled on the same pitch circle diameter spacings
The diameters are 1 11/16, 1 31/32, 2 ¼, 2 17/32 and 2 13/16 inches.

The starting point for all holes is 30 degrees above the horizontal counterbored fixing hole locations left of the vertical centerline.

I hope this information proves helpful. I have photographed the plates. If you need the photos, let me know. Because of their size, I would more than likely need to send them in a couple of emails.

I finished off the work on the body section of the tailstock this morning. I have attached a couple of shots for your and Nev’s interest. When I bored the hole for the spindle, I took one finishing cut with the boring bar on power feed in reverse i.e from the chuck out.. As often happens, the spring of the bar cut the hole .001”oversize, the hole should have been .750”. The “precision” ground 4140 bar I intended using for the spindle turns out to be .748” in diameter and the pinch bolt on the tailstock body won’t clamp the spindle without me having to resort to over tightening the bolt. I will have to turn down a larger piece of 4140 to suit. Funny how often the final “finishing” cut can lead to the beginning again!!

Still, nearly there.

Regards Bob.

mgtoolmaker

18th May 2009, 05:11 PM

Hello Bob,
Thanks for taking the time to send the information on the divisions. It will be very helpful. The tailstock looks great.

The VSD is a real interesting project. I had expected the VSD would be added to the existing circuit but it almost replaces it completely. The unit I have has an inbuilt thermal overload, better low voltage IO for soft stop / start as well as soft reverse. When I read the instructions a few more times I will get on to my electrical engineering buddies and get them to design the new circuit to get the best from the unit.

Did you make the QCTP sitting on your lathe ? It looks like a nice unit. Did you make it to a plan ?

regards
Michael

mgtoolmaker

21st May 2009, 11:49 AM

Mad Hercus nuts,
You have probably already seen it but on fleabay there is a Hercus power hacksaw for sale in WA for $120, may be of interest. Seems a good price but it could also be a boat anchor.
regards
mgtoolmaker

Anorak Bob

21st May 2009, 02:47 PM

Hello Michael,

I could think of less awkward boat anchors. That hacksaw has been out out Bills' Machinery for a number of years. It is a good example of how not to weld a collection of broken castings.

Regards Bob.

Anorak Bob

22nd May 2009, 04:37 PM

Hello Michael,

The toolpost is based loosely on a model made by Hardinge. Could not be much simpler. I've attached a few photos which should illustrate it's workings.

Regards Bob.

new_guy90

22nd May 2009, 07:18 PM

Hello Michael,

The toolpost is based loosely on a model made by Hardinge. Could not be much simpler. I've attached a few photos which should illustrate it's workings.

Regards Bob.

wow im really impressed was that made on a Hercus model O? got any pic's of it in use?

man if i had a mill and a lathe i would give that a try thanks for showing :2tsup:

Anorak Bob

22nd May 2009, 09:05 PM

Hello Patrick,

The toolpost was made using the Model O, along with a lathe and Douglas shaper. Here are some shots of it attached to the lathes. The toolpost was made to fit the green ARL which is fitted with an extended cross slide. This slide sits about 4mm higher than the standard cross slide which is why the tool block is raised up on the dark grey lathe.

Regards Bob.

mgtoolmaker

28th May 2009, 04:59 PM

Hello Bob (and other Hercus owners),

I finally got around to taking some photos of my current project which is a clock. I am making some of it at home and some on machines that others own (gear cutting). The plates of the clock are 3mm thick and they are about A4 in size. I am working on the pinions and arbors at the moment. I have included a photo of my lathe covered in brass swarf - no it is not a Hercus, it is a Herless approx 15 years old. My Hercus mill is being rewired at the moment and will soon be ready to be covered in precision swarf. The 4 way toolpost is 75 x 75mm for reference, is that similar to your QCTP ?

Hope you enjoy the photos

mgtoolmaker

Anorak Bob

28th May 2009, 11:14 PM

Hello Michael,

A bit of painstaking work on display in your photos !! The work you have done looks fantastic.

I want to know more about how you have made the gears, especially the cutouts. They look like good candidates for a bit of CNC milling. I'd be bathed in sweat trying to cut those out.

The look-a-like tool post body is 65mm square and 45mm high. Because I wasn't sure as to how well it would function, I made the body and removable toolholder out of 1214 mild steel to make the machining as easy as possible. I am tempted to make a slightly smaller version out of 4140 because version one appears a bit chunky and being 1214, you only need to look at it for rust to appear.

Please post more photos of your work and explain a bit about the design and workings of the clock. I am interested.

Regards Bob.
.

mgtoolmaker

1st June 2009, 06:07 PM

Hello Bob, (and the many other Hercus owners around)

Almost all the brass is turned, I have 2 small pillars for the back cock and one long one for the maintaining power. The yet to be turned collets number approx 10 and all have slightly different sizes for each of the wheels. After that it is all steel in doing pivots, arbors etc. The escapement is what takes the time as it needs to be accurate. When they are finished I will post the photos. CNC does save a lot of work and for many of these wheels it was how the spokes were made by one of the group. It is practical and for me, time efficient. I have cut my fair share of material by hand and using 21st century techniques I am going to actually finish a project in the same year it was started as opposed to the same decade.

The gear tooth is a cycloidial form and quite different to an involute. They were cut on a wheel engine, a specialised type of clockmaking machine with direct indexing. You can cut them on a mill with no drama but the cutter runs at high revs, sometimes up to 6,000rpm. The chips fly - safety glasses essential. The multi tooth cutters are all imported and cost about $160 each. You can make fly cutters if you have the skills and they do the same job if made correctly.

The clock is to a design by John Wilding, an English horologist. It is a Regulator style and will have a 10" dial. It is a very plain looking clock but it is a high accuracy time keeper. The plans cost about $80 and the book is a collection of the articles first serialized in Model Engineer or similar with plans and appendicies. I am part of a group and we are all making the same clock and keeping each other encouraged. Things like the pillar screws which are stainless are being contracted out to save time. Other screws are bought as standards.

The Type "O" is very close now, the 24V is almost complete and the last thing is a registered sparky to put the 240V connections and 3 phase connections in place on the VSD and do a safety certificate. I am hoping it will run on Friday. First job will be a few tee nuts. I will let you know how it runs after the weekend.

Fingers crossed,

Michael

Anorak Bob

1st June 2009, 07:05 PM

Hello Michael,

Undertaking a complex project such as your clock requires perseverance and I imagine being a member of a group with the same aims provides the encouragement to keep going. It's hard sometimes when there are a number of components that require completely different machining processes. I remember looking at a book twenty years ago on clockmaking written by George Daniels and thinking" where the hell would you start!" Impressive, complicated stuff.

I finished the knurled adjuster and centre this afternoon which concludes the making of the major components of the tailstock. When I cut the slot in the side of the centre for the locating screw, I first used a 1/8" slot drill in the vertical head. The drill skated erratically on the curved surface. Fortunately, there was little damage. I had the mill running at the highest speed but I may have come unstuck because it was a long series slot drill. Any ideas? The centre is made from 4140 bar. I successfully cut the slot with a slitting saw mounted on the horizontal arbor.

I've attached a couple of shots of the nearly completed project. The final component to make is the drive plate for between centre work.

Please post some more photos of your clockmaking efforts and also the No.O at work.

Regards Bob.

Anorak Bob

1st June 2009, 07:42 PM

Hello Michael,

I just read an article about John Wilding online at the Craftsmanship Museum. Certainly a prolific writer and clockmaker. I need to pursue this further. I had never really thought about clockmaking as a use for the gear in the shed. Could be a direction!

Regards Bob.

Anorak Bob

2nd June 2009, 10:43 PM

Hello Michael,

George's book was on the subject of watchmaking not clockmaking. Considerably more daunting!

Regards Bob.

mgtoolmaker

3rd June 2009, 01:37 PM

Hello Bob,

I had a thought about the slot drill, I suspect the work surface may have had a bit of localized hardening - I have had to use a dremel and grind a small area prior to drilling before on 4140 especially the ground rod. Sometimes the material is supplied normalized as opposed to annealed so it can get up around 300hbn, much harder to machine. Annealed can be 180-220hbn and with a 1/8" cutter it does not have a lot of meat before crunch, long series cutters much worse. It is often a challenge to get the tool nose pressure high enough to punch through the skin and start to cut before the web cracks and there are bits everywhere. You don't notice it on a lathe as much as a mill.

Clock making has to be easier on the eyes than watchmaking and you eventually get to play with wood for the case. Wood, yes wood, felt I needed to make a link back to the Woodworkers forum at some point.

The tailstock looks well made, have you used the headstock on anything yet ?

regards

Michael

Anorak Bob

3rd June 2009, 04:37 PM

Hello Michael,

It was 4140 PG bar that I used. I don't know what the problem was because I had successfully taken a light, maybe 2 thou cut along the bar before the dancing started with the second 10 thou cut. The tapered nose of the tailstock spindle is offset by 1/8" which meant a lot of interupted cuts on the lathe. HSS worked well in that application. The taper may have added to the problem with the slot drill.

I would not say the dividing head has had a hard life. It was pressed into service when I needed to mill the four flats on the end of a replacement 4140 screw for an incomplete 3 inch Hercus mill vise that I purchased. The vise came minus the screw, bronze nut and the cast iron boss that supports the screw at the rear of the sliding jaw. The rotary table gets a hiding compared to the dividing head.

bitza500

8th June 2009, 04:33 PM

Anorak Bob

9th June 2009, 11:22 AM

Hello Derek,

The drawings that I have consist of a number of very rough sketches. To redraw these in a clear, understandable fashion would take some time. Is it your intention to build a replica of the 3 ½ inch centre height Hercus tailstock or are you after a design of tailstock that provides angular and vertical adjustment?

Regards Bob.

Rodd Perrin

11th August 2009, 07:59 PM

Thought that it was about time I stopped lurking in this forum and put fingers to keyboard.
I purchased the mill (though this forum actually!) just before Christmas and have spent the last 8 or so months stripping it down and doing it up. I am quite pleased with how it turned out – I even braved cutting metal on it the other day.

So, another mill to add to the list.

Now, all I need is a dividing head, the tail stock, .... :D

The before and after shots are below

Regards,
Rodd

SurfinNev

12th August 2009, 08:17 PM

Very nice. Great to see the old Model O restored. Had mine nine months and all I have is a pile of bits. I'll get around to it sometime, hopefully before I forget where aall the bits belong.

Nev

.RC.

13th August 2009, 07:37 PM

So who is going to buy the one on ebay??

Anorak Bob

10th March 2010, 01:08 AM

Nev and Michael,

Where are you?

A while back I received a box of mill parts from Hercus. Amongst the treasures within was a casting that turned out to be the predecessor of the offset casting, housing the drive gear for the vertical head. Having never seen a real Hercus slotting head and having next to no chance of finding one, I decided to have a go at making my own utilizing this casting.

If you are around and interested, I can show you the progress.

Regards Bob.

Graziano

20th March 2010, 09:12 PM

I used one of these mills brand spanking new in high school in 1985, it was shipped with a small grease gun filled with white grease so I faithfully pumped the vertical head full of grease and ran it for a while; it got so hot it could not be touched. It turns out the grease nipple was really an oil nipple and the supplied grease pump should have contained oil. No real damage done (I hope)......these days the machine shop is for pottery or basket weaving or something. There was also a model 260 and a Hercus shaper too.

SurfinNev

20th March 2010, 10:52 PM

new_guy90

21st March 2010, 01:17 PM

BigAldo

24th March 2010, 06:11 PM

Hi everyone, new member here, hoping that someone might be able to help. I recently managed to acquire a Hercus No.0 mill from my son's school. They were practically throwing it out! It was a bit abused as you'd expect, but after a little clean, adjustment and a good oil, it works beautifully. It came with a vertical head which is where my problem lies. Unfortunately the spigot that fits in the spindle nose and it's associated helical gear was lost. I have no idea how I can go about finding a replacement or maybe getting one made. Are there any members out there that can give me any suggestions or advice? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Graziano

24th March 2010, 06:48 PM

.RC.

24th March 2010, 06:50 PM

Hercus should still have the blueprints for it...Contacting them would be the first point of call...

be aware it will probably be an expensive gear to get cut being a helical bevel..

Rodd Perrin

24th March 2010, 08:23 PM

Hi BigAldo,

Welcome to the Hercus Mill Clan :D

I spent a good part of last year renovating / cleaning up a Hercus Model 0 mill. If there is something specific you are after, I am happy to photograph, measure, ?? any bits you are interested in.

I too have the vertical head (which is complete) - I could post some photos of how it all goes together to enable you to work out what is missing is you would like?

Rodd.

BigAldo

24th March 2010, 08:58 PM

Wow, thanks for the quick responses guys. I wish Hercus would reply like that. I've e-mailed them twice, with no replies. If your offer still stands Rodd, and it's not too much hassle, a photograph or a drawing of the spigot and helical gear that fits in the spindle nose would be fantastic. And maybe if I'm not pushing my luck, some measurements to go with them as well. I'm beginning to realise that finding these parts from somewhere will be harder than winning the lottery! The only way I'll get this head to work, will be if I get the parts made. Hate to think what that will cost. Anyway, thanks again for the replies.

Rodd Perrin

24th March 2010, 09:41 PM

Hi BigAldo,

I'll have a play on the weekend. I have included two 'canned' photos.

Are these the bits you are interested in?
Rodd

BigAldo

24th March 2010, 10:06 PM

Hi Rodd, it's the first photograph with the gear on the spindle nose. Any info on that would be fantastic. Thanks again for your trouble.

Anorak Bob

24th March 2010, 11:20 PM

BigAldo,

It should be a 47 tooth helical drive gear that mounts onto the spindle nose.

The spiggot is the easy part. The 3 Morse taper arbor has a 0.749" diameter end that fits the bore of the missing gear. The other end is tapped to accommodate a 1/2" BSW drawbar.

If you cannot obtain a replacement gear from Hercus, you could try HPC Gears in Chesterfield, U.K. www.hpcgears.com (http://www.hpcgears.com). They sell helical gears.

I've purchased a couple of worm gears from them. Their products are of high quality and represent good value when compared with the cost of a locally made, one off gear.

There has been discussion on this forum regarding pressure angles. HPC gears have a 20 degree angle. I have an Hercus Transmission Equipment catalogue dated 1979 and the gears listed within all have same 20 degree angle. Pretty good chance they used the same angle on the vertical head!

Good luck
Bob.

BigAldo

25th March 2010, 06:04 PM

Thanks for the info Bob, I'll give them a look.

Anorak Bob

23rd April 2010, 03:42 PM

Hello Nev, Michael and any other mill owners.

I had said, in a previous post, that I'd been working on a slotting head based on the one Hercus made for the model O mill. Here it is painted and ready to go.

Regards Bob.

A. Hudson

23rd April 2010, 08:51 PM

Adsolutley awesome, well done

SurfinNev

24th April 2010, 09:50 PM

Adsolutley awesome, well done

I agree. Great work. When can I expect mine? Seriously, if you ever consider making a couple more I may be interested in one. Price may frighten me though.

Nev

mgtoolmaker

7th May 2010, 10:59 AM

Hello Anorak Bob, Surfin Nev and others,

It is amazing where 6 months can go. I was o/s with work and came back to Christmas, a forced redundancy, damage to Casa MG, child in hospital (who has recovered brilliantly), find new job (which I have) and get back into routine all in that order. Sorry, no time to get on the web and share Hercus milling experiences, I was a bit ...... distracted ??

I love the slotting head Bob, another great job by you. Have you used it is the big question !!!

For myself, the clock is nearing completion with less than twenty components (which is about 4 sub-assemblies) to go, those close to me have given a lot of support to keep making the parts over the past year. The case is the next big item to make. The parts are all in small plastic bags in a briefcase and I am preparing a completion plan with a more experienced clockmaker to get the build order correct. Probably about two months to go. I will post a photo of progress even if it is small plastic bags all over the floor.

The conversion of the motor to star / delta and the use of a single phase in three phase out Variable Speed Drive is the best thing that I could have done to the machine. I have the benefit of soft start and stop, 24V switches, certificate of electrical compliance and the opportunity to put a field potentiometer where I have the switches on the side of the stand. I have the VSD well protected, it is hidden inside the stand where the old electrics were. I will try and put a happy snap of that as well.

The machine is working well as a horizontal machine and "polishing lathe" now that I have my set of ER-32 collets and chuck. Great way to hold things apart from cutters. The vertical head needs a full strip down and, in light of your early comments about overheating, some engineering attention. Just feeling my way around the backlash and slide adjustment issues to know the machine better.

I have also bought the H&F 1/2" imperial clamp set with 3/8" studs, the tee slots on my machine are 11mm neat. The 10mm tee nuts with 8mm studs just looked too flimsy. I have made better tee nuts than in the kit.

Sorry I dropped out for a while guys (and gals),

regards

MG

Anorak Bob

10th May 2010, 04:52 PM

Hello Michael,

Good to hear from you again. I have a collection of nice Dumont broaches that would be my first choice for cutting a keway. The slotting head does work, I tried it out on a piece of cast iron, but being lazy, I used the cutter I had in the boring bar which is suited to boring not slotting. There was a bit of chatter, most probably because the thing needed sharpening, and you have to feed very slowly. Still, it might come in handy.

I fooled around on the weekend and fitted a Hercus T29 61/2" diameter handwheel in place of the vertical feed hand crank on the mill. I thought that it might provide a more sensitive feel when raising the table. There is hardly any difference. I'm thinking now of a geared fine feed mechanism. The gear part isn't too hard. Coming up with a neat clutch to engage/ disengage the thing is a bit trickier.

I need to discuss with you the intricasies of concentric turning in regards to the dividing head spindle but I must take a couple of photos of my spindle first.

Post some photos of your mill at work and your progress on the clock.

Regards Bob.

mgtoolmaker

10th May 2010, 06:09 PM

Hello Bob,

I had a look in the accessories book and they have the american style toolpost with self seating washer and the boring bar, they do not use a broach. I can just imagine a quality broach whacking the top of a workpiece and smashing into lots of little bits. Ouch !!!

I haven't found the 'Z' feed to be a problem yet but mine is just clumsy work either done on another mill, a special purpose machine (the gears) or by filing. I knew all those apprentice filing tasks come in handy someday.

As to a fine feed or power feed, have you considered a small epicyclic box, something in between the speed change on a 2 / 4 minute Edison phonograph and a regular lathe headstock box, can't remember if it was a boley, lorch or wolf jahn that had an epicyclic box inside the pulley cones. Have a look on lathes uk if you have a bit of time, that was where I saw it.

Clutches have a look at arboga and the indian clone, schaublin 11, 12, 13 might give a few ideas. Also the late model centec's and harrison's

Got to go and iron a few shirts and pick a suit for the morning,

Regards

Michael

Anorak Bob

10th May 2010, 08:03 PM

Hello Michael,

I didn't mean to scare you. I use the broaches in my arbor press.

Regards Bob.

Metalman

14th June 2010, 11:59 PM

Hello, might be able to help regarding the fine feed/ power feed, I have a Schaublin 13 and access to an Arboga Indian clone, I am not sure exactly what you require however.
On a related topic the Schaublin has a vertical head which sufferers from the overheating issue as well so it is not just a Hercus problem. I would be interested in any comments on this problem.
Regards, Metalman.

Anorak Bob

15th June 2010, 09:06 AM

Hello Metalman,

We might need to create a Schaublin User's page.

I purchased a No.13 mill two weeks ago. The machine was manufactured in 1962. I have not had it running because I don't have 3 phase power. Because of the limited space available within the base for mounting an alternative motor, I may persevere with the Oerlikon motor and run it via a VFD.

I have become very familiar with the right hand longitudinal feed handwheel, it's dog clutch and it's connection to the leadscrew. At some stage, the handle had been broken off and the forked shaft bent. I've made a new shaft and still need to make a couple of other parts to complete the repair. I am thankful that I have a set of metric transposing gears for my ARL. I will post a couple of photos showing how I machined the slot in the forked shaft.

The overheating head is a concern. The Hercus mill uses lipped seals and I reckon the seal friction is the source of the heat. The Schaublin head appears to utilize a labrinth seal setup according to my operating instruction manual. Your heating could be a bearing issue.

Good luck
Bob.

Metalman

16th June 2010, 12:25 AM

Hello Bob,
It is nice to know I am not the only 13 owner around, mine is a 1955 model that I puchased about 8 years ago. I have done nothing to it accept lubricate it occasionally and it has worked well other than the overheating.
Using a VFD on your machine could have problems if you replace the mechanical spindle speed control as the table traverses will then vary with the spindle speeds. With the existing system the traverse speed is independent of the spindle speeds.
I have some sales brochures and tech info if needed, would be interested in conversing further but do not want to hi-jack this thread too much.
Regards, Metalman. (Phillip)

Anorak Bob

16th June 2010, 08:43 AM

Hello Phillip,

Let's move the discussion to the Metalwork Forum.

Regards Bob.

Ray39

20th June 2010, 06:34 PM

Hi there
Just a quick point regarding your overheating problem, if the head is grease lubricated and fitted with grease nipples it may have been over lubricated. I struck this problem with a couple of Cincinnati machines years ago almost killed with kindness. Too much grease creates a shearing action which generates heat, bearings should never be packed more than about a third full to allow the stuff to flow as temperature changes.
Hope this helps
Ray

Anorak Bob

20th June 2010, 08:27 PM

Hello Ray,

The instuction regarding oiling was not heeded. Someone pumped grease into every nipple on my mill before I bought it. I dismantled the vertical head to remove the grease and replace the seals. I use Mobil DTE Heavy Medium oil to lubricate the head and main spindle. The head runs hot with seals installed. Remove the seals and there's no heat. I don't know if this is a problem that is common to all No.0 mills or something that occured in the earlier machines. My machine has the serial number 0L-8.

I had been thinking about trying to make some seals out of Teflon, but like a lot of things, it hasn't progressed past the thinking stage.

Do any other No. 0 owners experience a heating problem when using the vertical
head?

Bob.

Rodd Perrin

20th June 2010, 08:33 PM

Hi Bob, et al,

I don' t have a problem with the vertical head running hot on my mill (#362). I have used it for 1/2 an hour at at time and the head is mildly warm, but by no means hot.

Like you, when I got the mill I pulled it apart and cleaned out all the grease (and embedded swarf!) and have only run it on oil since. I use the same oil as I use in my lathe (Hydraulic oil).

Hope this helps :C

Rodd

Anorak Bob

20th June 2010, 09:39 PM

Hey Rodd,

Looks like Hercus might have changed something. Is there any chance that you could let me know the brand and part number on the seals that are installed in your vertical head? That's if you can see them.

Regards Bob.

Rodd Perrin

21st June 2010, 08:09 PM

Hi Bob,

I had a quick look at the seals on the vertical head and both don't have any information printed on them that I can see without pulling the head apart. :(

I did however find in the owner's manual that the vertical head uses 2 off Flaseal 13297.

As I didn't note the maker / part number of the seals when I cleaned up the head, I can't confirm that this information is correct.

Hope this helps. :rolleyes:

Rodd.

Anorak Bob

22nd June 2010, 01:46 AM

Hello Rodd,

I just checked out my seals with the aid of a torch and a jeweller's loupe and all they have on them are the manufacturer's name, NAK and the size, 2.500 x 1.875 x .375.

I had bought them from Transeals as replacements for the unavailable Flaseals listed in the owner's manual, I ran them both with and without the spring but the heat persisted. I will buy another brand of seal to see if there is any difference.

Thanks for having a look at yours.

Regards Bob.

Pete F

3rd February 2011, 11:03 PM

As a matter of interest, what was the outcome regarding the hot seals? I also have a new to me No. 0, also greased, also stripped down by me and rebuilt after completely degreasing. I was running the vertical head on max speed tonight checking out for faults and it quickly became quite hot. I'm using 90 weight diff oil as it's the closest I could get to the specified oil in the manual without buying a 20l drum.

Pete

Anorak Bob

4th February 2011, 02:19 AM

Hello Pete,

Since acquiring my Schaublin mill, I have only used the No.O a few times, and only in the horizontal mode for sawing. (The little Hercus can accommodate a half inch larger diameter saw than the 13 giving it one useful advantage over the Swiss mill)

As a result of being lazy and having no pressing need to deal with the seals, I've done nothing. I do still need to deal with the problem.

Running the Hercus for a period of say, five minutes in the lowest of the normal speeds, results in excessive heat in the vertical head. There could be something else at play other than the seals.

I've been mucking around with a pair of high speed drive pulleys on my 9"ARL. At high speeds, the bearing become very hot. Bearing preload appears to be the cause.

I have set the preload in accordance with recommendations given in Peter Hercus's Textbook of Turning. A spring balance is used to determine the correct preload.

The spring balance that I have could well be better suited for use as a fishing accessory than as a precision measuring device. I need to check the preload again on the mill spindles.

I use Mobil DTE Heavy Medium ISO68 oil to lubricate my taper bearings. I'm not sure how that compares with your gear oil. I imagine the DTE is a thinner oil.

Run the head with the bearing caps removed and see if the bearings become hot. Oil will everywhere but you will determine whether the seals are the problem or not.

Bob.

larry2721

7th February 2011, 10:03 PM

My pulley was greased with a high temp light weight grease, normally used for the vibration shaft bearings on a 2 tonne vibrating roller. What will I notice if it isn't coping?
Larry

Anorak Bob

7th February 2011, 11:43 PM

Hello Larry,

In the case of my mill, the grease had been pumped in through the nipple blocking the oilway in the cone pulley.There was insufficient grease to lubricate the entire length of the spindle and whatever oil there had been was long gone. The lack of lubrication in the areas where the cone rotates on the spindle in backgear, caused a seizure with resultant galling of both surfaces. Fortunately, I was able to stone away the high spots created by the galling and reassemble the spindle. The most difficult aspect of the repair was trying to remove the bull gear from the damaged spindle.

If you have sufficient grease in the void between the spindle and the cone pulley to ensure lubrication of the cone's two bearing surfaces, you could be OK.

The only warnings I had were a couple of quick shudders then lockup. I imagine the spindle and cone were very hot when the seizure occured. Keep an eye on the cone pulley and check the temperature when you have back gear engaged.

Bob.

Pete F

9th February 2011, 03:22 PM

My mill suffered the same fate as Bob's, albeit before I owned it and I suspect not as badly. When I removed the spindle the damage was, however, evident. It didn't require treatment, and all told it wasn't too bad. I suspect the recessed oil nipple was the reason this area is not serviced correctly, as there was no way my grease gun's (ie now oil gun) coupler could service that nipple and was the reason I replaced it with a longer one. If it was running in grease I'm quite sure it would be fine so long as serviced regularly.

As far as the stuck bull gear, I had a rather lengthy thread running on HSM about this but it's probably worth repeating here.

The bull gear is an interference fit on the spindle and will need to be heated in order to remove it. Sadly the manual doesn't say that and implies it can just be "held back with a block of wood". Pig's #####!! Mine required some mighty hard hits on the spindle even with the bull gear heated. Next time however I will heat it to a higher temperature.

Reinstalling however can be very tricky as there's no way to restrain the bull gear. The solution is to put the spindle in the freezer and the bull gear in an oven. I took my gear to 175 C so as not to damage the paint. The combination of the two meant the bull gear simply slid on up to the shoulder and shrunk when cooled so it was very easy. Hopefully that tip may help those who need to remove their spindle, as sooner or later you WILL need to remove it (to change the belt).

Pete

Anorak Bob

9th February 2011, 04:37 PM

Pete ,

The fellow that owned my ARL before me replaced the bull gear at some stage as a result him losing a couple of teeth from the original. He must have decided to forego the block of wood and resort to a steel faced hammer to drive out and then drive back in the spindle for both ends were damaged. The advantage of owning a pair of lathes is the ability to repair one with the other. I turned off the mess from the rear end and used a Dremel set up in the toolpost to clean up the nose. The sort of thing that can simply be avoided with a bit of thought.

I can recall clearly the stress and sweat involved in trying to remove my mill spindle. I might have sworn a little bit too.:o I had a similar experience trying to remove the horizontal arbor from the spindle when I first acquired it. I resorted to making a puller and using a blow torch to extract it. Draw bars don't need to be tightened with a two foot crescent.

Bob.