Table with Bread board ends .

[Roger Peine]

I am making a beautiful Blackwood (Acacia) table for a client as we speak . After much after thought i am inclined to go ahead with "Bread board" ends. This decision is not only for Aesthetic appeal but,as the boards i have used "are not" true Quarter sawn i am inclined to use this method as a means to negate ( As much as possible )any movement .
I intend to use "Floating splines" . Has any one out there used this method of joinery ??
Any feedback, good, bad or otherwise appreciated .
coo-ee
roj

[IanW]

Roger,
Using breadboard ends to 'negate movement' is likely to be an exercise in frustration. You cannot stop wood from moving if it's so inclined. Here is a good example. A tabletop 1200 x 950mm by 35mm thick. Nice, dry Jacaranda boards rested for several weeks after thicknessing. A bit over a week ago, I put the ends on (held by 3 dowels underneath, close together in the middle). I rough planed the top, then finished all edges nicely and planed a small chamfer.
Then it rained - we had just over 100mm from Sunday to Friday, & now look at my nice, flush edges. The top was sitting on two narrow boards well off the bench, & the air could get at both sides, so no cupping, to speak of - just an extra 3.5mm width at each corner!

SWMBO wants it to be 'rustic', so I'm not concerned, but I am a bit surprised Jacaranda moved so much, it's a pretty stable wood, but then I don't have a lot of experience with breadboard construction as I rarely use it - partly for this reason!

[BrettC]

Breadboards will help to stop the individual boards cupping or twisting out of alignment but you cant stop the movement at the join.

Better to have the breadboards extend a little longer at construction and hope that with seasonal change they will be close most of the time.

It's a good idea to give it a rustic look like you've done there.

[fletcher]

Then it rained - we had just over 100mm from Sunday to Friday, & now look at my nice, flush edges. The top was sitting on two narrow boards well off the bench, & the air could get at both sides, so no cupping, to speak of - just an extra 3.5mm width at each corner!


IanW,

From your pictures it appears that you have sealed the timber...or is this just an optical illusion. If it is not sealed, would sealing have stopped this?

After a week or so of "drying out" (aka no rain) will the joints return to their original position?

(Roger, sorry to hijack your thread)

Fletcher

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

I've been trying to find some links to a table I saw recently that had a workaround for this... but can't find 'em, sorry. (Ain't that always the way? :rolleyes:)

Basically, the outside board on each side were made the same width as the ends and firmly fastened, to make a "frame," as it were. The remaining planks were inserted in the middle as a floating panel, with decorative v-channel routed around all four sides (sort of like a panel door, although not as extreme) to help conceal the expansion joints.

I haven't described it very well, but I think you can get the general idea?

[Phil Clark]

In Greene & Greene tables the breadboard ends were made proud of the table width. Darrel Peart (see G & G group on yahoo) (or see his book) makes his spline with the grain running parrallel to the table grain. The spline is glued into the table slot and runs free in the bread board end. This minimizes, if not, eliminating conflicting wood movement.

[IanW]

From your pictures it appears that you have sealed the timber...or is this just an optical illusion. If it is not sealed, would sealing have stopped this?

After a week or so of "drying out" (aka no rain) will the joints return to their original position?

(Roger, sorry to hijack your thread)

Fletcher

Hi Fletcher,

Yes, I had put two thinned-down coats (well soaked-in!) of Poly on it (both sides) before the rain. So the quick answer to your question is "No".

I'm hoping it will settle back roughly where it was in time. I thought this might be a good illustration of how little standard finishes prevent moisture exchange. Jacaranda seems to dry and 're-wet' very quickly from this experience, and drying quite a bit of it from green over the years.

I had actually measured the MC of the wood before glueing-up, and it was around 10%, so my idea was that planing the ends flush now would have them in a good median position for seasonal comings and goings. Didn't expect such a quick and dramatic response as that, though! :o

Cheers,

[IanW]

In Greene & Greene tables the breadboard ends were made proud of the table width. Darrel Peart (see G & G group on yahoo) (or see his book) makes his spline with the grain running parrallel to the table grain. The spline is glued into the table slot and runs free in the bread board end. This minimizes, if not, eliminating conflicting wood movement.

Phil - not quite sure what the difference is ( in expansion terms) between using a glued-in spline as you describe, and just routing a tongue on the ends, as I did with this one - same grain orientation, isn't it? I did consider stopping the groove in the breadboard end, & notching the tongue so that it wouldn't show at the edges, but decided that would be a bit less 'rustic' than letting it show.

I was expecting some cyclic movement - just a bit surprised it was so much, so quickly!

Cheers,

[IanW]

I've been trying to find some links to a table I saw recently that had a workaround for this... but can't find 'em, sorry. (Ain't that always the way? :rolleyes:)

Basically, the outside board on each side were made the same width as the ends and firmly fastened, to make a "frame," as it were. The remaining planks were inserted in the middle as a floating panel, with decorative v-channel routed around all four sides (sort of like a panel door, although not as extreme) to help conceal the expansion joints.

I haven't described it very well, but I think you can get the general idea?

Skew - yairs, standard 'frame & panel' construction. Did one like that for a 'client' a few years ago. Actually, it was a repair job on a top that someone with more ambition than skill had made. They'd glued up a top of 40mm hardwood, then glued a mitred frame of Kwila around that. The 'craftsman' had had a bit of trouble getting his mitred frame joints right, so had resorted to clamping hard and putting a couple of 3/4" dowels through each corner. When the top decided to expand, it just ripped the corners apart, dowels & all, of course.
With some misgivings, I remade the frame, (with clean mitres!) and put a slightly thinner top of Silky Oak in as a floating panel - wasn't quite sure how much gap to leave, but decided the softer wood might crush rather than bust the joins if I was too stingy. It's still holding after about 3 yrs, I think (haven't had any complaints, yet, anyway!).
Cheers,

[munruben]

You sure had a lot of rain in a short space of time and that sure is a lot of movement. Quite surprising.

[jaspr]

I've seen the breadboard end fitted a few mls short of the table edges (when dry), so that when the table boards expand they become flush. looked Ok, because the end corners of the outer table boards were given a small chamfer. Looks better than having them stick out.

I've also seen a mag article of a different work around - where the table boards were fixed on the outside, but floating in the middle and there was a decorative gap down the table. can be straight - or curved.

[IanW]

You sure had a lot of rain in a short space of time and that sure is a lot of movement. Quite surprising.

Yep, John - quite sobering...

[Exador]

Yep, John - quite sobering...

10 % m/c is a bit dry, Ian. 15-18% would be where I'd have been trying to get it prior to sealing.

[IanW]

10 % m/c is a bit dry, Ian. 15-18% would be where I'd have been trying to get it prior to sealing.

Well Craig, 'Twasn't nothing I done - that was what it got to just sitting under the house in a warm, dry spot for 2 years. I checked it by oven-drying an offcut, & it was somewhere between 10 and 12%. I was surprised it was so low, myself, and thought my scales may have been a bit suss., or that it was because the bit I dried was close to the edge. As you say, 15% EMC is much more like it round these parts - but it HAS been pretty dry these last couple of years, hasn't it? Must admit, that's the most movement I've been aware of in such a short space of time.

Not to worry - if it's still sticking out on the weekend, I'll take a bit off the long sides and chamfer the inner edge of the breadboard so that it looks more like a 'feature' instead of a fault........... :;
Cheers,

[Exador]

Well Craig, 'Twasn't nothing I done - that was what it got to just sitting under the house in a warm, dry spot for 2 years. I checked it by oven-drying an offcut, & it was somewhere between 10 and 12%. I was surprised it was so low, myself, and thought my scales may have been a bit suss., or that it was because the bit I dried was close to the edge. As you say, 15% EMC is much more like it round these parts - but it HAS been pretty dry these last couple of years, hasn't it? Must admit, that's the most movement I've been aware of in such a short space of time.

Not to worry - if it's still sticking out on the weekend, I'll take a bit off the long sides and chamfer the inner edge of the breadboard so that it looks more like a 'feature' instead of a fault........... :;
Cheers,

I checked a stack of my air-dried stuff yesterday and most is sitting at 12-15 at the moment. A bit moister inside the stacks, I suspect. As you say, it has been very low humidity for a long time and then the wet...

I have noticed a bit of reaction to the moisture in some of my sticks as well, including quite a savage bow in one piece that's developed over the past week. I guess we ignore the weather at our peril.