Radial Arm Saw

[ozwinner]

Hi
I was thinking about getting a radial arm saw, until I saw in another thread that Mick dosent like them.
So gentlemen, fill me in on the pros and cons of radial arm saws.
I was thinking of a second hand one from the tradeing post.

Al

[mat]

It depends what you want it to do. If you are expecting consistant accurate 90 degree cuts then you may be dissappointed. Like many pieces of machinery some time spent fine tuning greatly increases the accuracy. It is relatively easy to adjust the fence to blade angle but what you may not be able to change is the straight line accuracy of the saw itself.
If buying second hand go for a reputable brand and look for abuse.

[Wood Borer]

Ozwinner,

They can be dangerous and inaccurate.

Having said that, I bought one about 8 years ago. I use it for crosscuts quite a bit. I found if you use it for ripping, it takes quite some time to set it back up accurately for crosscutting again.

Very handy for making tenons and for fine tuning the length of a board in crosscut mode, you can take off a fraction of a mm if necessary.

I haven’t injured myself on it but I am safety conscious and I can see how it would be easy to be a victim of a radial arm saw if safety was not exercised.

Once accurately set up mine stays that way, but I regularly check it.

Mine is a DeWalt, I bought it new.

- Wood Borer

[ozwinner]

Hi WB
What model Dewalt is it? There are a couple in the Melbourne tradeing poast
Can a dado set be put onto a radial arm saw?

Cheers, Al

[Wood Borer]

Ozwinner,

I am at work at the moment (otherwise I would be in my shed doing woodwork) but from memory I think the model number is something like 1204.

You are welcome to look at mine and test run it if you want before you purchase.

- Wood Borer

[Barry_White]

Ozwinner

You can put a dado into a radial arm saw but probaly depending on the brand.

Ideal for trenching out for half lap joints and you would get more depth out of the radial and possibly more travel out of the arm depending on the size of the saw.

That would be the only advantage over a CSMS without a depth adjustment.

Ryobi have brought out a 12" CSMS with twin rails and laser at about $900 at Gasweld. It is more into a tradesman type with positive locks on the angle settings. It has depth adjustment also for trenching.

The problem with second hand Radial Arm Saws is that a lot of them are worn out on the rails and difficult to get accurate.

[gdf26562]

I have a Ryobi radial arm saw, given to me by my brother, he hardly ever used it. Currently all I have used it for is for trenching, and I must admit it did a great job, and it is fairly accurate.

Now, when I used it, it was a little scary, as it is a very large machine. and unfortunately it did not come with a safety guard for the blade. I think you can see where this is heading.....

Almost having completed the trenching, I lost concentration and as a result lost half of my thumb nail.....yes I screamed.... and looking at the injury... nearly fainted, but I held on long enough to realise how lucky I was not to loose half of my thumb..

It wasn't the blade, just the timber being knocked form my hand. So I learnt another lesson, oh yeah, and after nearly two weeks, my thumb is still sore. It is amazing how much you need a thumb to do the most minor things......

For my radial arm saw, I can still purchase most attachements for it, and I am amazed at what can be done with it, but saying that I feel that other machinery can do the same job, ie; routers, drop saws ect. (and be a lot safer)

If anyone is interested I took a pic of my thumb, to remind me of my stupidity.:rolleyes:

[Sir Stinkalot]

Bad news about the thumb ..... it could look like Allen could pick up a great quality Ryobi in the Coffs Harbour area rather soon. :D

[Barry_White]

Give us a look for the experience.

[echnidna]

Having used a RAS and a SCMS I think the scms is more dangerous than a radial arm. If you are looking secondhand the industrial saws will outlast the modern ones like Dewalts many times over , but many of the older saws need to have guards etc made for them.
As far as ripping with a RAS, that seems very dangerous.

[ozwinner]

I wouldnt use it for ripping, I have a great TS for that.
Mainly for cross cutting, dados.

Al

[duckman]

G'day oz,

I owned a RAS up until around '88. I sold it because I found I was doing a lot more ripping than cross cutting, and a RAS is NOT a good saw for accurate and safe ripping: the blade rotates in the 'wrong' direction, plus 95% of the cross cutting I did was either narrow enough to be handled by my drop saw (around 4"-5") or too wide for the RAS to handle as it was limited to around 18".

You really need to define what you need to do, and then look around for the best equipment for the job.

HTH,

[Wood Borer]

Ozwinner,

For cross cuts and dado joints they are good because of the fine control you have for depth adjustment. One advantage over a TS is that you can see where you are cutting although I think a good TS would have more accuracy once it has been set up. SCMS saws do not appear to have fine height adjustment.

Personally I will keep my radial arm saw even after I buy a good TS but I need to wait for my bigger shed.

- Wood Borer

[journeyman Mick]

Al,
I guess you found a post somewhere with me ranting about RASs:) . Besides the problems with alignment and lack of suitable (negative rake) blades there's one other problem as I see it and that's accuraccy. On a table saw the cut occurs on the reference face (ie, the timber sits on the table and this same side is cut) So if you are cutting a swag of half lap joints and your thicknesser crept somewhat the day before resulting in a range of timber from 40mm to 39mm all the cuts you make with your dado balde will still be the same depth. With a RAS however the reference face is opposite to the cutting face. Any discrepancies in timber dimensions will translate into a discrepancy in the cut depth. Furthermore on a table saw if the stock lifts somewhat during a cut it will be too shallow which is easy to fix. On a RAS if your stock lifts somewhat you'll end up with a deeper cut which is not always possible to fix.

As far as a RAS being safer than a SCMS, well I can't see it. Both have guards on the blades but I've yet to see a RAS guard that wasn't a pain to use. If a guard is awkward you'll end up removing it. On a SCMS you bring the unit forward, then down into the cut and back, it's easy to control as you are pushing back against the saw's tendency to come forward. On a RAS you bring the spinning blade forward into the stock in the same direction of travel as it wants to go. I find it much harder to control, it's rather like using your circular saw backwards.

I reckon if you're only looking at it for dados and crosscutting you'd be better off putting the money into building/buying a sliding table.

Mick

[Rocker]

Ozwinner,

I agree with Mick that a radial-arm saw is not worth buying; you should be able to fulfil all your needs using just the table saw, if you buy an 8" dado set (US$149 from Lee Valley, if you have a 5/8" arbor) and make yourself one or more crosscut sleds. The only limitation will be that you will be unable to crosscut really thick stock.

Rocker

[ozwinner]

I have a dado set, and the sled, I was just looking at options.
It always seems best to ask before jumping in, which I am good at, jumping in that is.
Must be the stubborness in me. :eek:

Thanks for the input guys.

Cheers, Al

[MrFixIt]

Hi

Well I see there is the usual for and against the RAS amongst our group.

There are (IMHO) some errors in other posts.

Providing your RAS is set up correctly it can perform all the work you would expect of it. Many years ago (around 1980) I bought a Black & Decker (De Walt with B&D badges stuck over the De Walt badges) 12" RAS Model 1512.

This is a GREAT RAS, really heavy duty etc.

At the time of purchase I needed to consider either a TS or RAS. I was about to build a second storey extension on my house. I had all the timber framing to do for the internal walls, the roof, stairs, window frames etc, etc. I also had to consider that I wanted to build many other items in the future and of course the prevailing space for its use. The RAS won out for two reasons one, that I could place the RAS against the wall and leave it permanently set up for use, and two I could easily work on long timber, docking, trenching etc.

With my RAS I could (and frequently did) rip down the centre of a 48" (1200mm) x 8' (1200mm) veneered sheets.

One of the first items I made was a stand for the RAS. The stand had extendable foldout tables that could fould out and extend out approximately six feet either side. I added my own slide out extension to the front of the table, that provided support for ripping 48" sheets. ALl of this could easily be handled by myself as the extension tables provided sufficient support all araound.

An important accessory that I purchased for the RAS was an adjustable dao blade 6" diameter and could be adjusted by rotating the blade about the centre hub. This provided dadoes from 1/4" (6mm) to just over 3/4" (19mm).

I have since used the RAS to build several bars (the drinking kind), many barstools, buffets, speaker cabinets, office furniture, bookshelves, storage units etc, etc. There has NEVER EVER been an incident where I might have lost a portion of my anatomy. The simple reason for this is that I NEVER place my fingers or hands in front of the blade. That would be like pushing the wood through a TS with your fingers heading toward the blade - obviously none of us do that.

The RAS does not rip with the blade in the "wrong" direction. Yes, it does rip with the blade rotating up from the table, however properly set up as you would do with any tool it is safe and does not kick back. (No doubt there are stories around of such incidents). Obviously a good blade helps.

I recently gave my RAS a "birthday" and pulled it apart gave it a thorough clean. Then relubricated the armand the column, put it all together and adjusted it. I then made up a completely new fence assembly a little different to the original. It has the "normal" mdf/ply fence, to which are attached two aluminium extrusions (designed for table saws) and on the front of these extrusions are "disposable" and adjustabe MDF fences. So now I can slide the two extrusions from side to side - this allows any angle to be cut while maintaining a good fence with which to work - and I can slide the front MDF fences together at any time or any (RAS arm) angle, pull the saw through the front fences and have an INSTANT ZERO clearance fence. Wow this is a great fence I wish I made it years ago. Let me know if you want pictures.

I have mounted a replaceable 6mm MDF top to the RAS table and now can clean it up or replace it when necessary. The fence will no longer become unusable due to many and various cuts through it as I can adjust it to suit any need.

I have just purchased a (secondhand) TS and am very happy with it, however it does need an outfeed table (at least) to make it really functional. The RAS BTW also needed side tables of some sort to make it functional so the TS is no worse an option. I do expect that the TS will allow greater accuracy especially for smaller jobs. It is certainly easier to use the TS for some jobs. To now have both the RAS and the TS means I can easily do cross cuts and ripping by hving each set up to my requirements and swap from one tool to the other. I guess using each of these in conjuction with my Makita SCMS for mitred angles means minimal set up changes, just move from tool to tool for the cut required.

So I am a proponent of the RAS, if you can get one at a good price then take advantage of what it can do for you.


Kind regards

Peter

[ozwinner]

Hi
Yes piccys would be good, so I can see what its all about.
Cheers, Al :)

[MrFixIt]

Originally posted by ozwinner
Hi
Yes piccys would be good, so I can see what its all about.
Cheers, Al :)

Hi

Ok, will do. Have to go and take them first :-)

Regards
Peter

[MrFixIt]

Originally posted by MrFixIt
Hi

Ok, will do. Have to go and take them first :-)

Regards
Peter

Ok, I've taken the photo's. Here's one of them...
Go to
http://www.multiline.com.au/~psanders/Woodwork/woodfram.htm
and click on Radial Arm Saw for many more :-)

Regards

Peter

[ozwinner]

Thanks Peter.
I didnt know that a RAS was so versatile.
I was hopeing that it could cut compound mitres, but flipping the head horizontal as well is something else. :)
I dont suppose you know if all RAS do this do you?
I will check for this when the time comes to buy one.

Cheers, Allan :)

[kenmil]

Perhaps I am not thinking too clearly here, but how could you possibly rip down the centre of an 8x4 sheet. Surely the post which the saw arm sits on gets in the way ??

[ozwinner]

OK Ken time to put the Port away.
The head of the RAS is turned 90 degres, and slides out to the end of the arm travel.

Allan :D

[Barry_White]

Go to the web site and have a look.

[kenmil]

Originally posted by ozwinner
OK Ken time to put the Port away.
The head of the RAS is turned 90 degres, and slid out to the end of the arm travel.

Allan :D

I don't drink so I can't use that excuse, but I have also never used a RAS so I didn't know you could rotate the head. Thanks, now I understand. Nevertheless, it seems like a highly inappropriate piece of equipment for ripping.

[silkwood]

Good observation Ken! A bit like a Falcon hire car, it will do 4WD, but there are better tools, and safer too.

Cheers,

[soundman]

ripping with a radial arm saw is a scary thing.

I was very close to being two halves of a soundman when some ripping on a radilal arm saw got away.

Let me tell you a length of ply can get up quite some speed in 8 feet and fly straight & true for some distance with the aid of a radial arm saw & a length of rollers.

The piece of ply in question flew across in 6 in front of me just above waste height & smashed into a half completed truck body.

Ripping on a radial arm saw???

Not within 50 metres of me.

[bob w]

I purchased a secondhand Ryobi RA2500 last year from a local timber yard.They had been using it as a docking saw but had retired it as it was giving them problems. When switched on the thing seemed to run ok but when you tried to cut even pine the blade stopped while the motor continued to run.I got it REAL cheap so decided to take the risk. It turned out to be a simple thing like adjusting the clutch tension on the blade spindle. When I got it home I stripped it down to nuts and bolts and reassembled paying particular attention to the set up.(IT was then that I found the problem) Since then I have had no problem with accuracy and have used it for cutting tenons trenching and halve joints although not tried ripping as I have a small table saw and really don't like the look of this operation. The Ryobi also has a range of routing accessories available which I have considered buying. Does anyone have any experience with these? and are they worth buying? Your feedback on these would be appreciated.
Regards
Bob:p

[DPB]

Just to reinforce the comments already made, I found my DeWalt RAS was inaccurate. It was six months old when I purchased it from a guy who didn't like it because it wouldn't hold its settings. I kept it for a year and gave it to my dad who kept it for a year and replaced it with a table saw.

That's three people who gave it a thumbs down.

To be fair, that was 35 years ago.

[MrFixIt]

Originally posted by ozwinner
Thanks Peter.
I didnt know that a RAS was so versatile.
I was hopeing that it could cut compound mitres, but flipping the head horizontal as well is something else. :)
I dont suppose you know if all RAS do this do you?
I will check for this when the time comes to buy one.

Hi

The RAS IS a very versatile tool. It is also a SAFE tool. Many of the RAS detractors seem to think that the tool is unsafe because of "stories" they have heard etc, etc.

No doubt as soundman has stated in his message that there have been some less than pleasurable experiences with the RAS. However the same can be said for table saws, routers drills etc, etc.

It does seem to be an urban myth that the RAS is scary and dangerous. Please let me tell you and others that the RAS is no more dangerous than any other tool. ALL tools need to be used as they were/are designed. Providing the RAS is used with the appropriate fittings and safety measures it does work VERY WELL.

As far as ripping is concerned the RAS can and does do a great job. If the blade guard and anti kickback pawls are fitted AND IN USE, then should a kickback occur the pawls will hold the timber and prevent kickback. This is just the same (except upside down <g>) as the table saw. I have ripped many panels on my RAS and I don't recall ANY incident of kickback occuring. The only time I have had any kickback was due to my own "error" by trying to cut/rip a narrow strip of timber using the fence to set the width ie the piece I wanted was BETWEEN the blade and fence. Now this was stupid and this is not the recommended method for either a TS or RAS!

The head of my RAS can be rotated 360deg horizontally and (I guess) about 240deg in the vertical plane.

As far as horizontal cutting is concerned, the original chipboard table had a square cut out to enable the motor shaft to extend below the table and have the blade very low to the table. Doing this of course requires a special fence (shop made from MDF) to provide safe cutting practice.

The only "flaw" with the RAS is its susceptability to losing accuracy. With all the flexibility built in sometimes the accuracy can be compromised. However with normal and careful use (as with a TS) this does not happen.

There is a step by step procedure to set up the RAS and there are a couple of good books on the RAS that outline these steps and provide great insight into features and jigs etc for the RAS.

You don't necessarily need a RAS in these days of the SCMS, however it would be and advantage to have an addtional blade that can be set up for a job and not have to reset for each step of a job. ie use the TS and RAS together for the benefits of both.

Many RAS users leave the arm at the accurately set 90deg setting and use a jig like you could on a TS to do 45deg cuts etc.

It is easier to to dadoes across long panels (eg 2400x300) than doing this task on a TS. Obviously a router does a better job on dadoes the either the RAS or TS. If you combine a router and RAS you can do very useful work.

There will always be those that do not like RAS's and that's ok. I began with an RAS and learned how to use it. As I did not have (until a month ago) a TS my RAS served all my cutting needs - that has been for around 20 years now!

Regards

Peter

[MrFixIt]

Originally posted by kenmil
Nevertheless, it seems like a highly inappropriate piece of equipment for ripping.
Hi
I don't see why it seems "highly inappropriate" for ripping. Gererally the RAS has a "table" either side of the normal table (because of the RAS ability to "dock" long pieces of timber). So ripping is natural along these tables.

FWIW, you can position the blade accurately to the cut line as the blade is above the work as can be seen clearly against the cut line - in either rip or crosscut mode.

It really is no different from using a TS for ripping except the TS can rip across a 2400 sheet of material.

regards

Peter

[MrFixIt]

Originally posted by soundman
ripping with a radial arm saw is a scary thing.

I was very close to being two halves of a soundman when some ripping on a radilal arm saw got away.

Let me tell you a length of ply can get up quite some speed in 8 feet and fly straight & true for some distance with the aid of a radial arm saw & a length of rollers.

The piece of ply in question flew across in 6 in front of me just above waste height & smashed into a half completed truck body.

Ripping on a radial arm saw???

Not within 50 metres of me.

Hi Soundman

Well I'm glad you are still whole.

However I wonder from your description, were you ripping with the blade rotating in the SAME direction of the cut - if so then this is the wrong way to rip on a RAS.

If you were ripping with the blade rotating against the direction of cut then why didn't the anti-kickback pawls prevent the kickback? Were you using the anti-kickback pawls?

Regards

Peter

[MrFixIt]

Hi Bob

The Ryobi also has a range of routing accessories available which I have considered buying. Does anyone have any experience with these? and are they worth buying? Your feedback on these would be appreciated.

I have not been able to buy such an attachment for my RAS, however I have seen pictures etc on such use and it does seem to be a useful attribute to add to your RAS.

Pesonally I would recommend buying the accessory.

Regards

Peter

[MrFixIt]

Originally posted by DPB
Just to reinforce the comments already made, I found my DeWalt RAS was inaccurate. It was six months old when I purchased it from a guy who didn't like it because it wouldn't hold its settings. Hi

Perhaps this RAS was faulty from manufacture, in whcih case the original owner should have sought redress from De Walt.

Personally I would think it was a lack of knowledge or a lack of correct initial set up of the RAS.

I think I have set my RAS three times in the last 24 years. The most recent was only a few months ago when I took it apart and lubricated some parts. I then put on a new table and table cover, made up a new fence and clamping method.

So, I guess my RAS is ready for another 8 years or so :-)

BTW, Yes I agree that the RAS can lose its accuracy much easier than a TS, however it is also easy to reset.

Regards

Peter

[journeyman Mick]

Al,
even given Peter's (Mr FixIt) positive experiences with a RAS I think it would pay you to try one before you buy. As I see it, if you already have a TS the RAS will only give you more convenient crosscutting (with normal or dado blades). The money that you will spend on a RAS will buy or build you a fine sliding table attachment and this will give you greater crosscutting capacity than a RAS. If you want to see what it will be like crosscutting with a RAS try the following:

Pick up your 9-1/4" saw, rest the BACK of the baseplate on the stock you are crosscutting, retract the guard and fire it up, slowly ease the spinning blade into the stock (which you have securely fixed down with clamps), try to keep a slow steady feed speed against the saw's tendency to bury itself into the stock.

There, that was easy wasn't it?

Seriously though, for a few years the RAS was my only piece of stationary machinery and although I set it up for accurate use and used it a lot I was never happy with it. There is nothing that it excels at, nothing that can't be done better on another machine. Having said that, if you could only have one machine it IS the most versatile.

Mick
(standing by for a heated reply from Peter:D )

[MrFixIt]

Hi Mick

(standing by for a heated reply from Peter:D )
I like it, I like it :D


Originally posted by journeyman Mick
Al,
even given Peter's (Mr FixIt) positive experiences with a RAS I think it would pay you to try one before you buy.


Yes Mick I agree, though I also think that an initial test could put soemone off such a purchase, especially if they have used a TS


As I see it, if you already have a TS the RAS will only give you more convenient crosscutting (with normal or dado blades).

agreed

The money that you will spend on a RAS will buy or build you a fine sliding table attachment and this will give you greater crosscutting capacity than a RAS.
agreed


If you want to see what it will be like crosscutting with a RAS try the following:

Pick up your 9-1/4" saw, rest the BACK of the baseplate on the stock you are crosscutting, retract the guard and fire it up, slowly ease the spinning blade into the stock (which you have securely fixed down with clamps), try to keep a slow steady feed speed against the saw's tendency to bury itself into the stock.

There, that was easy wasn't it?


Don't even think about trying this!!!!!!!!. Yes, the analogy is similar however the RAS substantially controls the saw and there should be a guard over all of the blade not being used for the cut.

Yes on thicker timber the saw blade does have a tendancy to bury itself into the stock, and yes it is not for the uninitiated to take lightly.

I guess it is something that a user gets used to and I think that I have had the benefit of a better designed saw than some of those pictured on the net. The whole motor assembly on my RAS is quite heavy and this helps prevent the saw balde from burying itself.


Seriously though, for a few years the RAS was my only piece of stationary machinery and although I set it up for accurate use and used it a lot I was never happy with it. There is nothing that it excels at, nothing that can't be done better on another machine. Having said that, if you could only have one machine it IS the most versatile.

I am pleased to note that you are talking from experience :D

I'll let you into a little secret - although my RAS has served me well over the 20+years and I will not get rid of it - the first time I cut a small mdf panel on the TS, I though wow this is too easy - rip a length (400mm wide), move the fence crosscut to the height needed (600mm).

Not too hot I hope Mick? :D

Regards

Peter

[ozwinner]

Thanks guys.
I'm even more confused now, and I was muddle brained before all this.
When in dought, hold back, or was that jump in ask later, or, was it, shoot first if you dont succed when the grass is greener?
I dont know!?

I think I'll just wait and see, I dont realy need a RAS, I have a very good seconhand Leda 12" TS. It was a case of monkey see monkey want.

Cheers, Al :(

I am glad I asked though. :)

[johnbclay]

I have an old Paulcall RAS. Best thing I ever bought. Does everything and very accurate. I picked up an old book called The magic of your RAS. Very informative and helpful if your geometry is a bit rusty.

[BobL]

Wow - joined in 2012 and 4 year later you make your first post.
Congrats!
That might even be some sort of a record?

[Mobyturns]

Wow - joined in 2012 and 4 year later you make your first post.
Congrats!
That might even be some sort of a record?

Now now. Some people like to lurk but when they say something its worth listening too. This is a very old thread but I have to agree with John. A well set up RAS in skilled hands is a very productive tool.

I have had a lot of experience with DeWalt RAS's circa early 1970 models over the last 40 years, on many production tasks including sharpening tools, vertical milling slots (ripping / crosscut housings for stair treads), cross cutting wall studs, trenching 50 x 12 mm housings in wall plates with one pass, finishing trim work, compound cuts for roof rafters, cutting webs for roof truss manufacture, ripping sheet stock, ripping very hard 200 x 100 mm Johnstone River Hardwood (Backhousia bancroftii) bearers / beams which is about as demanding as any task on any saw.

There are no other machines on the market as versatile as a RAS. However in untrained / unskilled hands they are SCARY! Also had a customer of my Dad's who became good friends with us loose all fingers & thumb on his hand from not following the instructions given for safe ripping.

Magic of Your Radial Arm Saw: R. J. De Cristoforo: 9780835941839: Amazon.com: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Magic-Your-Radial-Arm-Saw/dp/0835941833) "Magic of Your Radial Arm Saw" Hardcover– June 1, 1983 by R. J. De Cristoforo (Author)

Warning! - always set up the RAS for alignment in the horizontal mode then shim / wegde the front legs of the saw stand to tilt the whole setup (support stand, RAS and infeed / outfeed benches) rearwards so that the RAS yoke/carriage does not creep forward in use in cross cut mode. Use the radial arm carriage clamp to lock the carriage and NEVER leave the saw running while making adjustments!!!!!!!!