quatersawing on a lucas?

[weisyboy]

so how do u do it?

i had a try this arvo but i didn't have much time.

any pointers would be good.

[Ibanez]

so how do u do it?

i had a try this arvo but i didn't have much time.

any pointers would be good.

I understand the theory of ring orientation etc and all benefits and disavantages of quatersaw V backsawn and I second weisy's question love to know the way without log turning but if I have to make a device to safely turn a log then so be it.


Shayne

[charlsie]

have i missed something? quarter sawing with the lucus is no problem. certainly no need for log rotation

[Ibanez]

have i missed something? quarter sawing with the lucus is no problem. certainly no need for log rotation


Only had my lucas for a total of 1.9 engine hours so wouldn't mind some advice from people who are keen to share

[johnnyroberts]

As I understand it, a quarter sawn board is a board with growth rings running perpendicular to the broad face of the board. To quarter saw with a Lucas, once the top of the log is taken off (usually back sawn unless cutting stickers for racking) cut vertical deep, middle of the log, cut horizontal deep, bottom of the log, cut vertical deep. sorry

[InterTD6]

the thing with quarter sawing hardwood on a lucas is the timber will have mostly bowed away from the heart when cut from the log, sometimes a lot a sometimes a little depending on how much tension is in the log, the norm would be 10mm to 35mm over a 3.6m log, if you are only sawing thin boards say less than 40mm spring is not a problem as you can straighten that easy later, i will cut the piece 20mm to 50mm deeper than the finished size of the board I want to end up with, once cut lay the board over away from the cut vertical face & spread about 5mm of sawdust over the log , put the piece horizontally back ( spring up )against the vertical cut face keeping the piece parallel with the vertical cut & preferably with the ends touching & a gap at the centre, go back to the far end & start cutting vertically from the left face of the piece, once the cut is done go back, move the saw to the right & cut again, hopefully there is enough timber left to get the full width of the board you want from the piece. This will leave you with a board which has no bow & some spring. All of this should only be done with timber that is heavy enough to resist being picked up by the saw & thrown down the log which could be dangerous
You also should get some battens out the quarters before these boards are cut minimising waste
regards inter

[Burnsy]

All of this should only be done with timber that is heavy enough to resist being picked up by the saw & thrown down the log which could be dangerous


Interesting comment as I have been wondering about this not just for resawing boards but also for lighter small diameter high value logs that could be halved using the circular blade. How heavy a board before you don't secure into the resaw log to stop this? If you were halving a 200mm log, would you do it with a vertical or horizontal cut to minimise the risk of the log being thrown back?

[Sigidi]

Mike,

I'd try something similar to the pic. cut a log as normal and leave a good high shoulder for a 200mm round, at least 100mm so you can hold the side of the round. chuck the round on top. throw a left side support firm against the left side of round and attach to the face of the partially cut log. attach an end stop to the end of the partially cut log. Each subsequent round will only need the left side support to be removed to 'load' the next round, then replaced to split it. If you had a few to do at one time then this would be quite quick, but probably not worthwhile if doing one round every now and then??

It maybe a bit over engineered, but there will be no problem with the round moving during cutting and causing possible damage - what do you think?

[Chooks74]

Same principle I use to dress slabs Sigidi, Always best to have things secure. I have used heavy dowel but they tend to snap, best to us solid blocks.

[Burnsy]

Mike,

I'd try something similar to the pic. cut a log as normal and leave a good high shoulder for a 200mm round, at least 100mm so you can hold the side of the round. chuck the round on top. throw a left side support firm against the left side of round and attach to the face of the partially cut log. attach an end stop to the end of the partially cut log. Each subsequent round will only need the left side support to be removed to 'load' the next round, then replaced to split it. If you had a few to do at one time then this would be quite quick, but probably not worthwhile if doing one round every now and then??

It maybe a bit over engineered, but there will be no problem with the round moving during cutting and causing possible damage - what do you think?

Thanks Sigidi,and cut with a vertical cut would be your recommendation then.

[Sigidi]

When I re-saw a bottom flitch (or half back as some people cut up rugby teams!!) I use an open log, chuck the flitch upside down on top of the log first pic, then raise the saw up the desired thickness - say inch and half, whatever. If I have a worry about it moving, I'll chuck a couple of batten screws in the side of the flitch (well below the travel of the blade) to hold it in place, although normally, taking out 3"wide waste until half way through the back of the board, then 2" wide waste until it's finished is ok without having to hold it in place - you just have to go a bit steady

Then if I want a dimensioned board from it you play with it like pic 2, cut one side vertical, flip the board around and push the cut vertical against the log shoulder, measure back from the log shoulder the desired width you want your board and cut the second vertical.

On the last log of a job I'll go through any of the 'thicker' bottom flitchs to make coffee table slabs for them and doing them all at the end means only one set-up and is quite quick.

Mike, in the previous, yeah I'd do a vertical cut to split the round, You'd need to go steady, as an 8" vertical will be taking a heap of timber out and will want to throw the round about.

[weisyboy]

tis is all very interesting but i wanna know about quater sawing.

[Chooks74]

I think the general gist of it is to take the top off the log, then take verticle boards out of the top above the heart, then change to horizontal boards as you pass the heart and then back to veticals again to keep the grain as close as possible to perpendicular to the face. This would in my opinion be extremely wasteful in all but the bigger logs.

[johnnyroberts]

sorry Carl, thought I was fairly clear, take the top off the log, cut vertical deep, middle of the log, cut horizontal deep, bottom of log, cut verical deep, as long as the growth rings are at right angles to the broad face of the board, it is quartersawn or as close as you can get to a quartersawn board with a lucas. if the growth rings are not at right angles, it is either backsawn or barstard sawn, cannot get much more simple than that.

[weisyboy]

i know what quatersawing is and how to do it on a static mill but i was wondering if any of the lucas owners had found a good way to do it.

this is the best my brain can come up with at teh moment and even than you only get 4 quater sdawn boards and the rest are neiter one nor the other.

[charlsie]

the second pic is how i quarter saw boards and if you want a perfect board you have to re-saw any way, thats why lucas provide the 9" blade so you can recover 195 mm dressed boards out of a 9" initial cut

[johnnyroberts]

I believe the first picture represents true quartersawing, it is not possible to do this with a Lucas

[weisyboy]

thats what i thought.

so pic 2 is the best method?

[johnnyroberts]

yep but you can quater saw nearly all the log

[weisyboy]

how?

[johnnyroberts]

to do the entire log, I cut the first layer of vertical deep's including the rough edge, I use a table saw to trim off the rough edge, same for the middle and then the bottom section, not all boards will be the same width. the 4 in each middle (like in pic 2) will be the same. I never bother cutting this way, I preffer to back saw the top of the log and then cut my first layer all verticals and so on.

[weisyboy]

so is this right?

if that is right im not trying to be criticle but they are not all quarter sawn. The lighter ones you could just pass off as quarter sawn but my father would string me up if he saw me calling the rest quarter sawn.

but that is as close as can be got with a lucas.

thanks for your help guys.:2tsup:

[johnnyroberts]

I recon thats about right, thats as close as a lucas can get to true quartersawing as I understand it. If the logs are large then I think you can go a bit closer to true quartersawing, some logs you can get 2 or 3 layers of vertical just on the top section. I got one out the back that I must get to, I recon its been down for 20 to 30 years, mayby longer, it has been off the ground all that time so I recon I can fit the lucas on it, when I do I'll post some pics.

[charlsie]

carl i've had a thought:? try and stay with me on this one. if you suspend the log with a spike in the heart at either end of log ,run the blade through ,spin the log (like a clock)with the first cut at 1 o'clock. take another pass spin the log and keep going like this. In the end you have as close to a fully qrtr sawn log .with this you get 100% recovery. a few people do this for weather boards they market them as wonky boards down here.(before any one has a crack at me) this is a very simplistic answer,and short on detail. but i recon bobl could knock some kind of jig for such a purpose.

[Calm]

carl i've had a thought:? try and stay with me on this one. if you suspend the log with a spike in the heart at either end of log ,run the blade through ,spin the log (like a clock)with the first cut at 1 o'clock. take another pass spin the log and keep going like this. In the end you have as close to a fully qrtr sawn log .with this you get 100% recovery. a few people do this for weather boards they market them as wonky boards down here.(before any one has a crack at me) this is a very simplistic answer,and short on detail. but i recon bobl could knock some kind of jig for such a purpose.

Good basic plan - two rollers either side on the bottom (similar to 2/3's of a centre steady) should give the same result, although the log may not turn as well on the centre.

take full marks for the idea:2tsup::2tsup:

[weisyboy]

good idea but how do u do the horasontal? the boards would be stuck in the log or tapered.

[Feralfelix]

Hi Carl

What I know about using a Lucas Mill could be written on my thumbnail with a nikko pen. I just wanted to point out that if you figure it out you could open up a new market for yourself with luthiers (those strange people who spend an inordinate amount of time turning timber into stringed musical instruments). I know I’ve been trying to find a nice piece of quartered Aust red cedar and pepperwood (brown beech) for most of the year, but every bugger who cuts it seems to back saw it so that it looks nice (the dogs).

As for the boards being tapered, when you buy raw billets of quartered luthier quality timber they are usually tapered, unless they have been squared up to make them look nice and transport better. This can lead to a bit of wastage, but most of the offcuts from squaring up a billet come in handy for something (if it is soft wood for tops then the wedges you get squaring the billet up can often be used for instruments with carved tops).

Just a thought

Cheers James


P.S your website is getting there... good to see a bit of content in it, may have to buy something soon.

[Sigidi]

Been away Carl, you have the basic idea for quatersawing and as you have found out, you can't get a log full of quatersawn boards from using a Lucas.

[Ibanez]

Hi Carl

What I know about using a Lucas Mill could be written on my thumbnail with a nikko pen. I just wanted to point out that if you figure it out you could open up a new market for yourself with luthiers (those strange people who spend an inordinate amount of time turning timber into stringed musical instruments). I know I’ve been trying to find a nice piece of quartered Aust red cedar and pepperwood (brown beech) for most of the year, but every bugger who cuts it seems to back saw it so that it looks nice (the dogs).

As for the boards being tapered, when you buy raw billets of quartered luthier quality timber they are usually tapered, unless they have been squared up to make them look nice and transport better. This can lead to a bit of wastage, but most of the offcuts from squaring up a billet come in handy for something (if it is soft wood for tops then the wedges you get squaring the billet up can often be used for instruments with carved tops).

Just a thought

Cheers James


P.S your website is getting there... good to see a bit of content in it, may have to buy something soon.



Part of the reason I have just bought a lucas (6-18) is I'm a very keen and proficient guitarist of a mixture of satriani johnson SRV emmanuel etc and have started building guitars and quartsawn timber is the cut of choice, I also love timber and wish to combine the two and to be able to quatersaw large amounts of timber appealed to me.

I have quite a bit of red cedar along with QLD Maple that Maton uses in the instruments to mill and the info on quateraswing has been great.

James if your after as much red cedar and other species as you can handle give me a p.m.


Shayne (Cairns)

[weisyboy]

i might quater saw this hoop pine if i get it.

the bloke is talking about me paying for the log now.

[Ibanez]

i might quater saw this hoop pine if i get it.

the bloke is talking about me paying for the log now.



paying for the log, thats just not cricket.

[weisyboy]

yer i know it fell ove in teh storm and he wants me to pay him to remove it.

the bottom 10m looks as thow its full of white ants anyhow. and as for wheather the blue stains got in yet or no:?

i told him i dock it up and see what its like and he said that i had to buy it before i cut it at all. i told hiom to go jump in the creek.

im docking it up on munday:U.

there is about 9-10 cube in the one log si i might offer him $200 if its all good timber.

[Ibanez]

yer i know it fell ove in teh storm and he wants me to pay him to remove it.

the bottom 10m looks as thow its full of white ants anyhow. and as for wheather the blue stains got in yet or no:?

i told him i dock it up and see what its like and he said that i had to buy it before i cut it at all. i told hiom to go jump in the creek.

im docking it up on munday:U.

there is about 9-10 cube in the one log si i might offer him $200 if its all good timber.

Following Cyclone Larry, March 20th, 2006 anyone who had C/saw and was willing to clear up trees etc could have as much as they could take (I've still got stuff to do from that "Blow") at Japoon.

And.......

Anyone that became obstructionist to that end, clearing, either with saw or tree copped a stern talking to from the likes of Me, QPS, QFRS, SES, and anyone that was asking for money to have trees cut or milled was explained the ins and outs of a few choice emergency service laws.

It was seen in a concilatory light, anybody offereing to cut or mill the huge volume of trees that were downed at there own cost.

In fact if money was asked for and the tree was on private land and not over a house or car, the crews just moved on to the next one and when all done, came back, the tone was different then.

Shayne

[weisyboy]

unfortunately if i leave this it will be full of blue stain and useless.

i hate paying for timber but hoop this size dosent come up round here that often.

[Ibanez]

unfortunately if i leave this it will be full of blue stain and useless.

i hate paying for timber but hoop this size dosent come up round here that often.


I see you problem and the rock and the hard place are getting close together.

Shayne

[weisyboy]

tell me about it.

either i pay for it or it rots in there padock.

[InterTD6]

I'd let it rot, it is a two way street, for the service of you removing the log for him, you are getting the timber
ps the stain wont start untill the tree is dead ie; cut from the butt or leaves dead, for wind blown over trees you have a fair bit of time up your sleeve
regards inter

[weisyboy]

it broke of the stump.

ill dock it up tomorrow and see if its any good.

hes in NZ at the moment anyhow.

[Calm]

I hate to tell you kind people but it is his tree and if he want money for it he's quite entitled to ask for it.

It is your option whether you pay it or not.

he might rather see it rot then give it away, some people are like that.

Sorry about the logical outlook.

Cheers

[johnnyroberts]

No need the be apologetic for expressing your opinion David, we 've all got them

[Sigidi]

Admittedly if the fella wants money for the log - that is up to him, the choice is accept it or move on:)

[Burnsy]

i told him i dock it up and see what its like and he said that i had to buy it before i cut it at all. i told hiom to go jump in the creek.


Remember that sometimes politeness, a professional attitude and a carton of beer can buy far more that the equivalent money:wink:.

[Sigidi]

Yeah Beer is good currency quite often:2tsup: maybe even better than USD:)

[GraemeCook]

i know what quatersawing is and how to do it on a static mill but i was wondering if any of the lucas owners had found a good way to do it.

this is the best my brain can come up with at teh moment and even than you only get 4 quater sdawn boards and the rest are neiter one nor the other.
Attached Thumbnails http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=89856&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1227856194 (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=89856&d=1227856194)


Carl

Your first picture is the way quarter sawn timber was produced 100 years ago when people used to hand split logs and then adze them into planks. I don't think anyone actually sawed a log that way - it would require a very elaborate and precise jig.

Back in the days when I was involved with a couple of very large sawmills we produced quartersawn timber by two methods:


grading for quartersawn. Sawer maximised output volume and grader sorted out QS - we got 15% price premium for some species.
sawing for quartersawn - all QS, but more machine time than above.

To cut for quartersawn we did the following:


quartered the log on the primary breakdown saw (96 or 108 inch band saw).
ran quarter log through horizontal band saw. This produced a quarter sawn rough edged flitch.
rolled that quarter log onto other face and ran it through same horizontal band saw. Another QS flitch slightly narrower than first.
rolled it back onto original face and repeated.
Result was 100% quartersawn output.

I have no experience with the Lucas and don't know whether it can cut like this.

file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Graeme/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpg

Cheers

Graeme

[Sigidi]

If you broke a log down with a chainsaw into quarters, then used a part sawn log as a 'bench' you could run successive vertical cuts using the above method, flipping each quarter to get subsequent smaller boards from it until you had almost nothing left. but the limit would be a log no bigger than around 400mm, so each quarter is no bigger than 200x200mm. Also each QS board would mean a longitudinal flipping of the quarter

[weisyboy]

when my uncle used to own the mill up here we cut quarter sawn boards like in the picture as did most mills i visited.

thew log was quarterd on the Canadian then we took it over to a large saw bench 1200mm+ blade specially set up for quarter sawing. a board was taken from every face. then a board saw taken fron teh center of the quater producing eighths. a flat was cut on the bottom of these eighths then a board was taken from the center of these then and so on untill there was no log left.

the wedges produced were often sawn into fence palings or servey pegs latter.

it was a time consuming process but it was all set up to do that and we got a good price for the timber.

[Fossil]

Hi Guys, this is a very interesting subject and pertinent to me at this time, as I have been discussing designs and manufacture of a swing saw, for use on my brothers property in south coast NSW. Quarter V's back sawing the material has been the issue of debate in the design, and cause of many entertaining (heated) phone calls between my brother and myself.

For clarification, I have scanned a page from "The Australian Carpenter and Joiner", being the series of books used as a reference bible while I was studying my trade many years ago.

Anyway, once again.... very interesting subject.

[Sigidi]

You can't quite quatersaw like your pic with the lucas, but you can do a pretty good job of it by reversing the dimensions as compared to backsawing a log

[WillBrook]

i know what quatersawing is and how to do it on a static mill but i was wondering if any of the lucas owners had found a good way to do it.

this is the best my brain can come up with at teh moment and even than you only get 4 quater sdawn boards and the rest are neiter one nor the other.

Here ya go Carl, this was scanned straight from the latest Lucas manual

[GraemeCook]

Hi All

I think I have finally worked out how to attach a drawing to this forum. This is the way we used to cut quartersawn timber in two very large sawmills using vertical and horizontal bandsaws. Not sure whether a Lucas can cut like this.

It was fairly efficient in terms of wood recovery rates, but expensive in terms of machine usage time and man-hours.

Cheers

Graeme

[weisyboy]

Graeme that is how i used to quater saw with teh chainsaw mill.

they are nottru quater sawn boards but they are fairly close.

it is onlypossable to get 4 true quater sawn board from a log with a lucas unles you roll the log between cuts.

[WillBrook]

Graeme that is how i used to quater saw with teh chainsaw mill.

they are nottru quater sawn boards but they are fairly close.

it is onlypossable to get 4 true quater sawn board from a log with a lucas unles you roll the log between cuts.


So why did you ask then Carl?

[Sigidi]

so how do u do it?

i had a try this arvo but i didn't have much time.

any pointers would be good.

This at the start of the thread....



Graeme that is how i used to quater saw with teh chainsaw mill.

they are nottru quater sawn boards but they are fairly close.

it is onlypossable to get 4 true quater sawn board from a log with a lucas unles you roll the log between cuts.


just a few months later a rather emphatic authoritative reply as to how to quatersaw with the Lucas...

What's goin on there Carl:?

[WillBrook]

Well said Sigidi.

Do just like arguing Carl?

[weisyboy]

i am sorry if i afended any one i have had a bad day. spent most of my time on the phone to a customer wanting me to change a fence for the 3rd time.

i have mutch time on the lucas scince i asked the questiona nd have realised it is not possable to tru quater saw with it.

really tru quater sawn timber is jsut a myth. each mill and type of mill has a way of producing as close to quater sawn timber as is fesabel. due to teh large amount of time and waste generated there has to be a limit as to how far you go.

on a chainsaw mill or bandsaws Graemes pic is the best way to do it.

Neale thanks for those pics will i be able to get teh new manual form lucas?

[GraemeCook]

Graeme that is how i used to quater saw with teh chainsaw mill.

they are nottru quater sawn boards but they are fairly close.

.


Cannot see why you would suggest that this is not true quartersawn. The growth rings are perpendicular to the face which is the prime quality of quartersawn.

I think its close enough to be true quartersawn.

Cheers

Graeme

[Manuka Jock]

I spose ya could say , that on the average log ,with most milling methods , we only get 4 true quarter sawn boards .
eh .:rolleyes:

[WillBrook]

Neale thanks for those pics will i be able to get teh new manual form lucas?

Yeah I guess you can. Just give them a call.

[GraemeCook]

I spose ya could say , that on the average log ,with most milling methods , we only get 4 true quarter sawn boards .
eh .:rolleyes:


True enough. But I am not quite that perfect!

Cheers

Graeme

[weisyboy]

here is a bit of a pic.

top left quarter is the only way to get true quater sawn boards but this producat so mutch waste and takes to long to fe fesable.

top right is how most sawmills will cut quater sawn boards the ones in the cewnter are good but teh further away you get the less quater sawn they are. the bottom would be one of the many ways of quater sawing on a swin blade mill.

all produce near enough to quater sawn timber to be marketed as quater sawn.

i alwas amases my that people ring up wanting quater sawn slabs.:U


True enough. But I am not quite that perfect!

Cheers

Graeme

neither am i.:;

[GraemeCook]

Nice drawing, Carl.

You are right in that with the normal QS cutting schedule, as you get away from the initial faces, the wood becomes less quartersawn - We used to shunt this into the backsawn pile.

In practice, unless we had a large quartersawn order we never deliberately quartersawed. We back sawed everything. But for those species where we could get a price premium for quartersawn, the grader simply selected those planks that turned up quartersawn. If the rings were less than 15* off perpendicular it went into the quartersawn category. (Hope 15 degrees is right, or was it 12*?)

Cheers

Graeme

[Burnsy]

I guess that different people and mills are going to categorise timber differently but I recall reading one definition being 0-30 degrees backsawn 30-60 degrees rift sawn and 60-90 degrees quartersawn. As different timbers have different characteristics I would reckon that you could only use anything like this as a guide and not make it definitive.

[GraemeCook]

I guess that different people and mills are going to categorise timber differently but I recall reading one definition being 0-30 degrees backsawn 30-60 degrees rift sawn and 60-90 degrees quartersawn. As different timbers have different characteristics I would reckon that you could only use anything like this as a guide and not make it definitive.


We were selling mainly into Asia - Japan, Taiwan, Korea, Singapore and Hong Kong - and the market required that we then use the Malaysian Grading Rules. MGR's specified a maximum angle across the growth rings for timber to be labelled quartersawn or backsawn - cannot remember what the numbers were but I do not think they were as high as 30*.

It was interesting in that for a decorative species such as red cedar the sawyers would try to maximise the quantity of backsawn which best displayed the grain pattern. For a utilitarian species such as erima they woud try to optimise quartersawing to minimise cupping and twisting.

Cheers

Graeme

PS: We have drifted a long way from Lucas mills.

[timbertalk]

Carl, your pic of quartersawing on the Lucas shows the centre of the log unused. Is this simply because the centre is usually piped, or the centre contains the pith and is no good, or because it is likely to split down the centre later anyway?? On small logs of some species at least the centre seems quite sound, allowing some of the quartersawn boards to be the full width of the log.

[Arthur Dyason]

Timbertalk

there is a good Taff course for log grading which will show why the centre of Australian hardwoods is taken out of the milling and useful timber calculations.

The minimum is 100mm square but can take upto 80% of a log full of defects. If there is NO heart showing (mainly on small logs) then the 100mm rule applies but you can normally recover some boards from the area. Its down to grading the boards at that point. best cut them any way unless defects or heartwood is showing.

For 100% backsawn or quartersawn timber we manufacture an Indexing Log Lathe which being independent from the mill can be used on any type of mill, swinger, twinblade, bandsaw or chainsaw.

It is designed for Radial Milling. You need a swinger or single vertical blade to produce quartersawn all other mills will only be able to produce backsawn.

With the swinger you use the vertical possition and take out wedges which then need to be used that way or passed through a dressing process.

With backsawn you either take off the top or side board and then rotate the log and repeat until you have gone all the way round. Then move the mill to the next board depth and do again.

Simple to build one yourself just make sure its stable enough to take the weight of the log. Recovery on 100% quartersawn tends to be lessthan 50% for square boards but backsawn can be in the 80% region.