The Perfect Workbench?

[DarrylF]

I've been contemplating it for a while, but I think it's time to build myself a decent workbench. Since I discovered handplanes, the old bench just doesn't cut it any more. It was one of my first projects 3 years ago, so I can't complain really.

I ducked out this morning to the newsagent and before I realised it I was loading up the car at the Wood Centre at Toronto. Got a great deal on some nice 38mm Rose Maple planks and 100mm square Yellow Cedar. Peter looked after me as usual :)

So now I have the project and the timber, so I just need to work out exactly how I want to build it.

I've done the usual searches, got several designs in magazines & books, ordered the Workbench Book - but what makes the perfect workbench?

I have a Record 200mm quick release vise on the current workbench, and I'd like to use that on the new one. I've been looking at options for vises - maybe the Veritas twin screw, maybe a shoulder vise, maybe a tail vise. I've been thinking about a second vise on the front, perhaps using my current vise on the right getting a larger one for the left. Maybe the big Record or the Veritas front vise. I like the idea of the wooden jaws of the Veritas.

I know I want to use bench dogs - but should I go for the Veritas round ones, or a square dog? How handy are bench stops (the pop-up type)?

I'm not going to go build a dovetailed showpiece - just a good, solid, useable bench that will serve me well for years I hope.

So what do you like & dislike about your bench? Found the perfect design yet?

[Rebus]

Greetings,

My bench has gone through several re-incarnations. In its present form I have a double thicknesss of 25mm ply glued together forming the front 400mm of the top with 35mm thick pine planks edge to edge at the back.

A 50mm thick ply top all over would have been even better, but I had the 35mm boards and the 25mm ply came as a 400mm wide off-cut, saving quite a deal on the cost. You'll know what I mean when you price 25+mm ply !

The 50mm thick ply (2 x 25mm glued) has all the strength that I need at the front of the bench where most of the heavy duty action takes place.

A flat top is most usefull. I had it originally with a center channel, like the benches were when I went to school (way back when). The only thing that the centre channel did was cause things to tip over and make it almost impossible to assemble anything on the top of the bench.

I have a quick action record vise in the standard position at the left. The quick action vises are certainly the way to go if buying new. As the man said, it's a bit like air-conditioning, you can get along perfectly well without it, but once you've had it you wonder why you didn't get it years ago.

The most usefull addition by far (and the reason for the last change to my bench) has been a patternmakers vise. I bought mine from Carbatec (a knock-off of the Veritas ? patternmakers vise, but "only" around $300.00 on special).

I have the patternmakers vise fixed at the right hand end where it serves as a traditional tail vise. I put in a double row of (19mm or 3/4") dog holes in line with the patternmakers vise dogs. It's just the bees knees for holding down boards for planing.

I used round dog holes. Square is the traditional shape but they are far more difficult to make and any accessory has to be square also. You can then make your own dogs with something as simple and cheap as 19mm dowel. I have them at several different lengths and you can easily make them to suit a special purpose.

The only drawback in using the patternmakers vise as a tail vise is that its moveable jaw is a little further away from the end of the bench than a standard tail vise. This means that there is not quite as much support underneath really short boards, athough I have not found it to be a big problem.

The real advantage is with the patternmakers vise. It rotates, swings up and can clamp with the jaws at an angle to each other. It's marvelous for working on irregular shaped pieces (like chisel handles). The rotation and swinging actions allow you to hold almost anything at just the right angle.

If you go for a patternmakers vise - a word of warning ! Buy the vise before you build your bench. It needs quite a lot of room underneath the bench to allow it to swing up, so you will need to design the bench accordingly.

Finally I would say "Make it solid !". A solid bench won't walk around the floor when you are doing heavy planing, etc.

Regards

[TOMARTOM]

Use the record vise as an end vise and visit Carbatec for an copy of the Veritas large front vice(offset thread) for around $130.00, they are made in Eastern Europe, you won't be disapointed.
Regards
Tony

[Rocker]

Darryl,

If you want to make your workbench rock steady, you might like to use the arrangement shown in this pic for the stretchers. The 8" hex-head bolts keep the bench really solid, and you can use 2 by 4s for the stretchers rather than expensive hardwood, as you would need to do, if you used morticed joints.

Rocker

[Rocker]

Rebus,

You could get over your problem with using your vice as a tail vice with short boards if you got a couple of Veritas wonder dogs; see

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&page=31129&category=1%2C41637%2C41645&ccurrency=3

Rocker

[stevepay]

When I built my bench a few years ago, I too was not looking for something pretty but a good SOLID bench that would be suitable for hand tools...eg PLANES.

I found some old Jarah fence posts and some timber salvaged from an old pergola worked a treat. after cutting off the ends and planing away the old paint and grey weathered exterior there was some beautiful rich woodgrain hidden underneath.

As for the bench top I went to my local door manufacturer and purchased a solid core door ( secound's ) with minor discolouration and a few scratches for 30$ . All I had to do was cover with a few coates of polyurathane and some hardwood edging and presto one rock solid dead flat work bench.

I installed 2 vices , both records. a 52 1/2 and a 53 as a end vice and have never been unhappy, also drilled some 3/4 inch holes in 2 directions and use brass dogs( veritas pups and wonderdogs) the brass gear I was lucky enough to be in Canada for vacation so filled up my luggage with some goodies.

I suppose its all personal preference really, I don't care what the bench looks like( allthough its not ugly ) as long as it works as the only person that sees it is me, and my other half who is only interested in what I make not how I make it.


Just my 2 cents

PS I would not put a Trough any where on the bench, these are a pain as all they do is collect dust and other bits of crap and unless you have stacks of room for another table to use in assembly ( something I do not ) you will end up using the bench and the trough will be annoying, also just a point I feel a bench should not be too wide or high as it will affect the use of planes if this is what you like to use, again this is only my personel opinon.

good luck

:)

[Gutta Percha]

Darryl
That's when I decided that I needed the most useful of all handtools ... the workbench ... when I started buying quality planes ... now I'd like to make my own.
I just posted a pic of my bench on the photos board as a new thread for you to have a look at. I sussed out many before making my decision. So far I haven't been able to fault the design for the type of work that I do. I really like the dog block assembly (pic below) as I find I am usually working on (normally planing) long but narrow pieces and with this system you don't have the wide vices going lopsided. I have the square dogs along the bench and are thinking of putting some round ones accross the bench from the front vice as most of the obscure shapes that i work with are less the a couple of metric feet in size. I really like the tool tray at the back.
Yet to put the drawers underneath but now that I have a planer/ thicknesser they are coming
GP

[derekcohen]

Darryl

Only 3 years since you built your last bench? Don't you know that it takes most at least 10, perhaps 20 more years before they have sorted out their ultimate design, then about 10 more to reflect over the construction, wood choice, choice of vices - oh, the list goes on and on (and it does)!

I built my current bench about 10 years ago and it has since undergone several modifications. It has developed as my interests and methods of woodworking have changed. There is definitely a difference in how benches are used not only between power and hand tool users, but also among woodworkers within each of these groups. This really emphasises that I consider the bench to be the ultimate handtool and, for my purposes, it is designed to be used along with my other (smaller) hand tools.

My bench is limited by space. It has to live against a wall in a double garage, one that also houses the family (although they would argue largely my) toys. Consequently, to make it easier to hand plane long boards, I have two face vices. I also have an end vice so that I can plane/surface wide boards. The bench has a series of dog holes that work hand-in-hand with all the vices (i.e. both across and down the bench). Another major necessity for a handtoolers bench is a FLAT surface since you cannot plane accurately on anything else. For example, you may want to use it as part of a shooting board. Lastly, the bench must be rack-free, which generally means HEAVY since you are otherwise going to move it around with your handplanes, handsaws and chisels. Mine is a relatively lightweight bench made from Karri (from pre-handtool days). Bolting the bench to the wall made a huge difference and it now feels solid as a rock. Oh, one last item to consider is a tool well. I added one after a few years (one of several mods over the years) and this has been a real boon. Nothing worse than using chisels, block planes, etc and not having a safe place to put them away but still have them within arms length.

I have not said anything about materials, construction details, "type" (traditional joiners, modern, etc). All those items are very personal and you do what ever gives you a sense of satisfaction. Look at those of Big Al and Gutta Persha in the Photo Gallery. Gee, theirs are superb. As I said earlier, mine represents a gradual progression over the years from a basic need to meeting current needs. I plan to rebuild it when we have completed the addition to our home, one that will provide me with more dedicated workshop space. Anyway, just for a giggle, below is a pic of what I use.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[derekcohen]

Bench for sale currently on eBay. Starting price $200.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3289022481&category=55433

I'd say that beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[bitingmidge]

I don't want to hijack this thread entirely, but thought I may resurrect a question I posted a few months ago, particularly as I am probably not too far from starting now...the new-fangled workbench!

The workbench photo attached is from a FWW article and relies on a series of pipe clamps rather than vices. In operation it seems to me to be a big "workmate", and I am quite keen to give it a go....I have a stock of recycled oregon, which won't make the world's heaviest or hardest bench I know and the fact that I can't find any reference on the web makes me quite dubious of it's success....but I'd welcome comment/criticism/doubts before I start!!

(I'll probably build it anyway, just to see if the doubters were right, and fit "proper" vices later.)

Cheers,

P

[Dan]

Darryl,

I was just wondering if it might be useful to incorporate a shooting board into the bench top, along the front edge. I've seen Terry Gordon using a separate assembly(shooting board) for edge jointing but I reckon it would be handy to have it there all the time, without taking up space on the bench top. It would only be a matter of making a large rebate in the front edge and making up a few clamps to hold the board down. What do you think?
http://www.hntgordon.com.au/jointinglongboards.htm

Dan

[derekcohen]

P

I would not recommend building a bench out of oregon. It is too soft and the mortice-and-tenon joints will deteriorate, the structure will loosen, and you will have a bench that racks all the time.

Save it for something else.


Dan

I think the idea of an inbuilt shooting board is a great one. Have you pics of what you describe? I have a vague memory of some somewhere on my harddrive. I'll look and post if I can find them.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[DarrylF]

Lots of good ideas guys - keep 'em coming! :)

I think I'll pass on that bench Derek :eek:

Dan: Interesting idea. Not sure I'd want it there all the time - but maybe with two face vises, a nice straight 2x3 could be held in the vices (+ maybe a couple pegs into the face board?) to do the same thing when needed. Have to think about that one.

Midge: Given you can buy from Carbatec a decent face vise for $130 and pipe clamps are usually $60+ each, I'm not sure your're going to save any money :) I guess the reason it hasn't taken off is that it's just not a big leap from there to a more traditional/proven bench - even if you use a door or MDF or ply or whatever for the top.

I guess the way I'm looking at this is the way many of you seem to as well - as the biggest handtool in the workshop. I'm not looking to load it up with a million gadgets, but I'd like it to be well set up and very usable.

I'm tending towards the Veritas round dogs. I'll make large wooden jaws for some/all the vises with dog holes. For the second face vise I'm contemplating the Carbatec or Veritas assemblies, the Veritas patternmaker's vise, or the large Dawn pivot-jaw vise (like the idea of the whole jaw sliding up as a dog, and the covered screw).

On the end though it's still a very open question. Veritas twin screw? Tail vise? Something else?

Come on guys - more!! :)

[silkwood]

I feel like I'm commenting upon someone's singing abilities, when mine are none-existent. You see, I'm currently in rental accomodation awaiting one house to be taken away and a new one (well, two) put in its place, so I don't actually have an in-situ bench, just making do with a knock-down one for the moment. Still, here goes...

For vises, I think a tail vise gives great support for planing, but a twin screw vise will be more flexible, particularly as you can place dog-holes anywhere on the table to use with it. Go for the pattern-makers as well if your wallet can handle the pressure.

April 2003 edition of FW has a good article on building a "Rock Solid Workbench" I know you say you don't want a showpiece but there are some really good joinery practices evident here which may inspire you not to cut too many corners. Incidentally, this article highlights how easy it really is to build in square dog-holes, provided you are using laminated hardwood sections for the top. Having said that, I like using round bench dogs, as you can easily make things like hold-downs to suit. If your worry is rotation just have a couple with squared-off top edges on hand.
(though I was very impressed with Gutta's simple but effective-looking "tail vise"). Can't remember where but someone in a mag suggested using ball-catches to situate the dogs. Great idea!

I may have to upset someone here. No matter how non-showpiece you want it, I find it hard to accept a serious workbench for a woodworker which has bolt-together joinery. I know it is probaly rock-solid and easy to construct, but isn't it a little like going to a hooker, gets the job done but are you proud of it? The equivalent we have in flyfishing terms is visiting a trout farm! Sorry!

Cheers,

[silkwood]

I feel like I'm commenting upon someone's singing abilities, when mine are none-existent. You see, I'm currently in rental accomodation awaiting one house to be taken away and a new one (well, two) put in its place, so I don't actually have an in-situ bench, just making do with a knock-down one for the moment. Still, here goes...

For vises, I think a tail vise gives great support for planing, but a twin screw vise will be more flexible, particularly as you can place dog-holes anywhere on the table to use with it. Go for the pattern-makers as well if your wallet can handle the pressure.

April 2003 edition of FW has a good article on building a "Rock Solid Workbench" I know you say you don't want a showpiece but there are some really good joinery practices evident here which may inspire you not to cut too many corners. Incidentally, this article highlights how easy it really is to build in square dog-holes, provided you are using laminated hardwood sections for the top. Having said that, I like using round bench dogs, as you can easily make things like hold-downs to suit. If your worry is rotation just have a couple with squared-off top edges on hand.
(though I was very impressed with Gutta's simple but effective-looking "tail vise"). Can't remember where but someone in a mag suggested using ball-catches to situate the dogs. Great idea!

I may have to upset someone here. No matter how non-showpiece you want it, I find it hard to accept a serious workbench for a woodworker which has bolt-together joinery. I know it is probaly rock-solid and easy to construct, but isn't it a little like going to a hooker, gets the job done but are you proud of it? The equivalent we have in flyfishing terms is visiting a trout farm! Sorry!

Cheers,

[Dan]

Originally posted by derekcohen

Dan

I think the idea of an inbuilt shooting board is a great one. Have you pics of what you describe?
Derek

Sorry Derek, I don't have any pics other than what was in the HNT link that shows a separate shooting board being used on top of the bench. I guess I shouldn't be surprised if it has already been done by someone at some point in the past. Sounds like you may need to catalogue and index all the info on your hard drive for easier retrieval. :D

Dan

[forunna]

I dream of a purpose built workbench but am far from doing it.
I have been using mums old kitchen bench for about 6 years now.
It has pine structure with fake pine doors/drawers and lime green laminex top and pine face.
Its perfect for me as it was free and its big, about 2.5m long.
Although as I try new projects it does lack things that I read about here. such as vises(I use F clamps on the facia), and dogs(I have bored a hole in the top and put an F clamp through that), tool trays(I use a pair of ally Landruiser side steps bolted to the wall above the bench).

[derekcohen]

Dan

I found a few pics that may interest you. They were originally on Badger Pond a couple of years ago.

The first is a bench with built in shooting board. It may not be so evident here, consequently I have added another in the next post (frankly, that one confuses me more).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[derekcohen]

With shooting board raised.

[IanW]

Ok Silkwood, I'll bite.
You say:
"I may have to upset someone here. No matter how non-showpiece you want it, I find it hard to accept a serious workbench for a woodworker which has bolt-together joinery."

Woodworkers have been bolting bits of their benches together for quite a while. At least the bits you need to be able to disassemble for portability. You could use through-mortices with wedges - they are not very difficult to do, but they have the disadvantage of sticking out a long way and being potential shin-barkers. Both my benches are very much products of a wood-o-phile, and have lots of dovetails, M&T's and even wooden screws for the tail vises, but they also have a few bits of metal. Four bolts hold the stretchers. The top fits into a couple of slots, and two coach screws hold it there so that they can be shoved around a bit as needed. (It takes a lot of grunt to move my main bench anywhere, though!)
As Derek says workbenches are very personal items in several ways, and we al have our own ideas of 'purity'. Mainly for cost reasons at the time, I did make my own front vise (with a metal screw and water pipes) and it has worked ok for 20 yrs, but I'm getting lazy, and have decided to replace it with a 52ED for the convenience of the quick-action bit...
Cheers,

[Dan]

Thanks for that Derek. I wonder if the owner of that bench might be into Japanese planes? In the raised position that setup looks like a Japanese planing beam where the plane is usually pulled toward the user. There's still a couple of useful ideas there though.

Dan

[Rocker]

I'm not going to go build a dovetailed showpiece - just a good, solid, useable bench that will serve me well for years I hope.

So what do you like & dislike about your bench? Found the perfect design yet?

Silkwood,

Darryl said that he does not aim to build a showpiece; hence my suggestion of the bolted joinery. There are some amongst us - MajorPanic and BigAl spring to mind - who have built fine benches and workshop cabinets that would look well inside the house, but most people, and I am one of them, are happy enough if their workbench and cabinets do the job, regardless of the aesthetics. As I pointed out, and Derek re-iterated, mortice-and-tenon joinery would require the use of a hard hardwood to prevent racking. It is a question of horses for courses; if cheap but effective is the requierement, then bolted joinery is appropriate.

Rocker

[derekcohen]

I wonder if the owner of that bench might be into Japanese planes?

Dan

You are spot on. The bench belongs to Pam Niedermayer (in USA), whose interest in Japanese tools is legendary.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[bitingmidge]

Thanks for the advice re: racking in oregon etc...I think as usual I am about to throw some more fuel onto the fire:

I have to make up my mind soon but would love some comment on the following!

1) Bolted joinery. Is not one of the advantages of bolted joinery that when the "inevitable?" racking happens, one can nip up the bolts?

2) I appreciate the advice regarding racking of oregon framing, and had not thought about that. I wonder though whether racking in softwood is really an issue if the mortices and tenons not being glued properly or with a rigid glue? I can only think of all the boats I have built with cedar and oregon structures which have copped a horrible flogging, but no movement in the joints? Comments here would be appreciated...maybe time to consider epoxy construction?

3) If we are looking to the ultimate workbench, should we not consider "T" slots/tracks and "Sturdee" hold downs instead of dogs and holes? It seems to me that we have a heap of new technology since the traditional methods were invented and there could be a number of advantages in jigs, hold-alls etc which could be flexibly located. (Inspired by the Black and Decker "Workmate".)

4) Is the density of the top really an issue? There seem to be a goodly number of benches in magazines etc with pine tops, and notwithstanding aesthetic considerations, I wonder if we get carried away a bit because we can get hardwood which is only slightly more dense than cast iron? I know my father would only build benches out of 4 X 2 hardwood, but he used to like bashing bits of steel on them!

5) How heavy is heavy enough? Up until now I have used two workmates in tandem with a size 11 boot on one (complete with leg and body attached). If I really get energetic or have a biggish job, like planing oars or spars, I hold them down with a sandbag each, so a total weight of about 50kg's seems adequate for my purposes.

Is there any consensus on this, other than the heavier the better?


Thanks again,

P

[silkwood]

Okay, already, I give in! Not only did I find a couple of posts which quite adequately support bolting on workbenches but, after discussing my post with a few friends they bombarded me with pictures and examples of excellent benches made with skill and aesthetics well beyond my own.

Does anyone have a good tool they can suggest for removing this foot from my mouth?

Cheers,

[derekcohen]

P

I think that confusion has set it because we are talking at cross purposes. The thread was begun by Darryl, who said "I've been contemplating it for a while, but I think it's time to build myself a decent workbench. Since I discovered handplanes, the old bench just doesn't cut it any more". So (certainly in my mind) I thought we were talking about the "The Perfect Workbench", and also as applied to handtool use (planing back-and-forth, sawing back-and-force, hammering chisels, holding boards down to do this stuff).

It is certainly not necessary to build a heavy bench otherwise (one that will surfice for the occasional thump, etc). In fact you can use oregon - just make sure that you enclose the sides with ply and bolt it to the wall (which is what I did with my pre-handtool era bench). Use the oregon for the frame and build a top out of a few layers of MDF and then seal it with shellac. It would work well. But it would not be my "Perfect Workbench" for handtools.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Barry_White]

As was said earlier the design of a bench is personal. My bench was made with cheap materials and as I have worked on a few benches that ended up with racking in them I overcame this problem in my own design with proper bracing and screwing it together with coach bolts.

See my post in woodwork pics.

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8385&highlight=workbench

I will later on add some draws and shelving to it.

Silkwood

Maybe a shovel will help.

[DarrylF]

Always fond of a bit controversy me :)

Nope, I don't want to build a showcase - but I do want it to be something I feel good looking at and working with. And I want it SOLID. Which means good traditional joinery and good weight.

My current bench is heavy (not massive), and bolted together. It's a POS :) My first project, so I can't complain too much. It racks a couple inches. Useless.

I figure on using traditional joinery, but using bolts (especially for the stretchers) to reinforce it and take up the slack if the wood moves later.

I am certain I could have built something heavy and stable with man made materials, a bunch of bolts and the right structure - but I want something that looks & feels a little more like a REAL workbench. Nothing wrong with the alternatives, they're just not what I want.

I don't think I like the idea of t-slots in a workbench :) I can't see it lasting the distance - and I can't see an issue with the traditional dog holes.

I can't see too much of an issue using pine or oregon for a bench, assuming sufficient heft and good joinery. BUT pine warps like crazy (at least the standard of pine required for it to be significantly cheaper than hardwood). Oregon is knotty as hell mostly - and lots of knots doesn't make for structural strength.

Considering I got rose maple and yellow cedar at prices similar to reasonable softwoods, I think I made a good choice. The maple has staining from an odd mould this wood is prone to - no structural issue, just a little discolouration that means it's not suited for most other things. The cedar has a number of small, tight knots - and the boatbuilders who usually use it like clear wood.

Keep the ideas coming guys :)

[DarrylF]

OK, so I've been doing more hunting around on designs...

I went through the timber I bought last weekend and started to work out dimensions etc.

My current bench is roughly 2400 x 600mm. It's not deep enough, and it's too long really - stuff collects on the end and then gets in the way. I'm thinking 1800 x 750 - any thoughts?

I am seriously contemplating a tool well. I have the saw bench and extension table in the middle of the workshop for larger assemblies anyway, and I think it will help to keep the bench as clear as possible while I'm working. But I'm thinking make it say half the width of the bench by around 120mm and say as deep as the benchtop is thick. Also thinking seriously about the tool holder strip at the back edge - so chisels & saws can be dropped in the slots for temporary safe storage.

I have enough rose maple to make the top at least 55mm thick. If I buy say some bluegum boards for the front apron and end caps etc, I could go 65mm thick, perhaps a little more. Most of the international pre-made benches have maple etc tops at 50mm thick, but the US sites talking about home made benches are pointing towards 75mm. I've never worked with American maple, but I'm fairly sure it's a whole lot less dense than the rose maple I'm planning to use. Do I need to go for any more than 50mm thick? This stuff is not exactly light - there is absolutely no chance I could lift all 8 of the rough boards I bought at once :)

The rose maple in question seems quite well seasoned and very stable. One board is cupped - due I think to one large knot in the middle (the only knot in any of them). Other than that they're all dead straight. It was, I'm told, at least 10 years old. Rough thickness is 38mm.

Heavy is good I know, but I don't want to get stupid about it. So what's the general consensus on top thickness with Aussie hardwoods?

Any thoughts on the length & width of the top?

[derekcohen]

Hi Darryl

Is this going to be freestanding (so you can work around all 4 sides) or positioned up against a wall? I think that this would influence the positioning of your tool well. My bench is against the wall, so the tool well is at the far side (nearest the wall), about 6" wide. However a freestanding bench could have a tool well down its centre, leaving the sides free and clear.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[DarrylF]

It's going to be against a wall - nowhere else it can go really, until I get a larger workshop.

I figure even with the tool well at the back, assuming the bench is 750mm deep, I'll still have 600mm of clear space to work on.

Any thoughts on drilling the dog holes? Thinking it would be more precise to drill them at the drill press before glueing up the top. I'm going to need to glue up several smaller sections of course, so maybe glue 3 together, drill dog holes in the centre one at the press.

Given the strips will be only 32-35mm wide, and 25mm dog holes, I'm now wondering about using some good solid say 50x60 stock for the dog hole strips.

[derekcohen]

Darryl

I would plan the spacing and positioning of the round dog holes very carefully.

(1) Make sure that they are lined up with your vise(s) in such a way that they do not cause the vise(s) to rack.

(2) The maximum distance between the dog holes must not be wider than your vise can be extended.

(3) Run dog holes both lengthwise and widthwise for greatest functionality (assuming you have both face and end vises).

(4) 3/4" dog holes will enable you to use standard Veritas Bench Dogs.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[bigAl]

Hi Darryl

I've followed this thread with interest but refrained from hurling in my 2 cents at the risk of sounding like a bench bore, but now I can really help!

Derek made some very good points (one of these days I'm going to Perth just so I can buy this fella a beer) about dog holes but I would add:

1. make damn sure that all the holes are as close to square as you can get them. I stuffed up the first one I drilled and I can't sleep nights;

2. make sure you don't drill through anything that's got something underneath it. The front vise on mine has a spacer between itself and the bench top which caused problems and I had to drill some half holes through the top of one of the stretchers legs. Remember the screws of the vises, hardware, etc.;

3. an easy way of drilling the holes is with an el-cheapo drill press from Bunnies. I can post a picture of mine if you wish, but they're about 18" high, press arm and a small table that you mount a normal hand drill in. You can spin the drill around and clamp the base to the table. A forstener bit in one of these will blunt itself after 58 holes, but all is square in love and benchtops...(sorry);

4. If you're not using a quick release vise, halve the distance that Derek suggested between holes to reduce the risk of RSI and put some holes close to the jaws for small pieces.

All the best,

Al.

(I used to have a life before I took up woodworking)

[derekcohen]

Darryl

A couple more points (Al jogged my grey matter with his points above - Al, come to Perth. I'll take you up on that drink!):

(1) I think the easiest way to drill perpendicular (round) dog holes without a drill press is to do so with a router. If the hole is not large enough, then use the hole as a pilot for your drill, into which you then use a larger drill bit.

The alternative to a router is a drill and a dowel guide.

(2) If you are going for square dog holes, then I think it may be easier to cut them with a dado blade (two boards folded over and dadoed, then joined together to form the square hole). Clean up with a sharp chisel and a fence.

My bench has both square and round dog holes. I find that I use the round dog holes almost all the time.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Dewy]

The best bench I was lucky enough to use was in the woodwork class at school. They had only started replacing all the wooden planes with Stanley ones. I always picked a wooden plane because it felt better in use. almost 45 years later & the school may be forced to close before long.
I have to keep my eyes open for any sale of old school items.
One of those old carpenters benches would do me nicely. ;)

[Sturdee]

Darryl,


I am currently reading a book from my local library written by Sam Allen called " Making Workbenches".
It has 160 pages dealing with planning, building (including sketch plans and diagrams) and outfitting the various types of workbenches.
Might be worth your while getting hold of a copy.


Peter.

[DarrylF]

I haven't been in a library in years :) Not sure why, just haven't got around to it or haven't found the need.

I did order the other day a 3 book set from Amazon - The Workshop Book, The Workbench Book, and The Toolbox Book - all supposed to be very good. Should be here this coming week all being well.

I picked up a Record bench screw today, so that's the hardware for the tail vise. Looked at the Record 52 1/2 vise as well - nearly bought it. Still seriously contemplating whether to go for the Record or for a Veritas type front vise. I kinda like the idea of the Veritas - more wood in it's construction and should be easier to place dog holes in in the front jaw. The Record has more bulk (though I'm not sure I need that), and the quick release.

I have been contemplating putting two front vises on (I have a smaller Record 52 on the current bench), but I don't think now that's such a good idea at all - would just crowd the front of the bench, and I can place a board with dog holes vertically on the right side to support long boards I guess. Anyone have this arrangement?

[Tip hunter]

I have just read a workbench book by Landis (i think) and thought i would add a couple if thoughts. Ply on the back of a frame will eliminate rackin if it is secured well. Against a wall it wil not hinder shelf access either. Also have a look around for bench ideas where they employ a bearer type support for the work top. In the book i saw there was one bench where the front half only was secured and the rear half slid back on the bearer if a gap was needed and if a hold down was needed you could use an f clamp. The front half was around 450 to 500mm so the area was very large enough for most jobs. The bearer design facsinated me though as it provided a tool rest place below the bench but did not compromise the bunch top or be at risk of having tools bumped off when moving around a work peice. This area is also big enough for clamps if you are assembling. You couldn't fit that in a tool tray. A set of sash cramps to the back section turns the whole top into a big B&D workmate style top. It was very interesting IMO and was a mix of old and new. I am racking my brain for a way to use the gap as a sweep hole hooked to the dust collector. You have probably made you bench by now but i am still in the pondering phase and looking for a variety of solutions. The book is available from carbatec and i thought it was fantastic with a wide variety of ideas and approaches to suit different work styles.

[DarrylF]

Not exactly finished yet - but a fair way down the track. The base frame is done. I went for a traditional style, kinda - rails top & bottom instead of just in the middle. I'll build separate drawer units to slide in on the rails. They're joined to the end frames with through tenons. The end frames are built with through tenons at the top and tenons at the bottom.

The top is 2/3 finished now. It's around 65mm thick in rose maple. The flattening process is fun :) At least it's giving me some practice time with my planes - a LOT of it :) I have some 150 x 40mm bluegum to use as the skirt. Haven't decided between dovetails and finger joints for the corners joints yet.

Haven't decided on the end vise yet - thinking my old Record 52. Face vise will be a Record 52 1/2. I picked up a portable drill press attachment to drill round dog holes.

Pics are below. End frames are yellow cedar, rails are jarrah.

http://users.bigpond.net.au/darrylf/images/DSC00798b.jpg
http://users.bigpond.net.au/darrylf/images/DSC00810b.jpg

[Gutta Percha]

I like the contrast of timbers
I'll be keen to see the final product
GP

[aljenit]

This very late reply to this thread relates to my case of workshop envy , everytime I read about the size of some of the workshops you all have at your disposal.I am interested in cabinetry and picked up a 2nd hand lathe just to try out and see if I like woodturning. I have big dreams and little space. I am awaiting the arrival of a 3.8mx3.0M shed that will be my workshop! I have searched your archives about workbenches and will try and get hold of issue 19 of AWR for a plan.Could someone tell me if it is wise to have benches that are mobile as space is at a premium and I will have to compromise and move things around to work.
1. I have a lathe 1.2m on a homemade fixed bench and want to know if it can be put on wheels and still work accurately.
2.A triton MK3 (top only) and want to know if I should fix it permanently or should I buy the stand they recommend and keep it more mobile.(Apologies if I should have posted this part in triton users :confused: )
I don't know what is important,I am guessing workbench first,but then what drill press,saw table(e.g.the triton MK 3 that I have),a bandsaw, a small dust extraction system(homemade or bought).I doubt there is room for a thickenesser?!

[Dewy]

Aljenit, try the mobile table idea from New Yankee Workshop. The table can be moved on castors then the casters raised to lock the table to the floor.
http://www.newyankee.com/getproduct3.cgi?0207

I intend using this idea on a few benches both lightweight and heavyweight.

[Sturdee]

Aljenit,

I was reluctant to reply because I don't want to add to your Workshop envy ailment. :D

As your workshop is relatively small I would go for mobile benches and tool stands. A lot of bench tools ( including a drill press) can be bolted onto a board which can be clamped in your workbench vice so I would put a couple of extra vices in your workbench. This will help with your limited space.

In regards to the MK3 you can buy the stand with wheels ready to assemble fromTriton or you can make your own stand with wheels. Either way it will work fine.

As to which is important, that depends on your needs, however I would strongly recommend a home made dust collection system untill you can get a proper D/C.

My posts on the Triton dustbucket modification or other's posts on a minicyclone with vac would be helpfull to look at.


Peter.

[ryanarcher]

Darryl,

dude, that is really classy. great job, is it done yet?

Aljenit,
I have just about the smallest woodshop in existence and love having mobile bases on everything...except my bench. have a good one!
-ry

[Dewy]

Gee ryanarcher
From what I see of Aussie workshops they are usually huge in comparison to our garage workshops in Blighty.
Standard garage is 16'x8'.
I considered mine huge when I made it 20'x10' (ouside dimensions for both)
So little space that I have to get a shed to house the gardening tools, mower, shredder etc. before I can treat myself to a small lathe & thicknesser.

[ryanarcher]

Dewy,
I'll measure it tomorrow, but I'm pretty sure that it's something like 6'x12' and without electricity. besides, i don't think aussies say "dude".:)
-ryan from Washington

[DaveInOz]

16'x8' ... LUXURY!

when I was a little girl and wanted to work on a piece of wood I had to use the kitchen, and if it was over 2' long I had to open two windows. But DAMN IT we were happy
:rolleyes:

[ryanarcher]

who names their little girl dave? wierd. :p

[DaveInOz]

It was a second hand name from the family in the hovel next to ours, a bit thread bear but it was all we could affort, and by george I wore it proudly

[Dewy]

ryanarcher
I had to look twice because I was looking for someone called 'dude' in the earlier post. :D
For those around the world. There is a good woodworking forum at UkWorkshop (http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/)
It has a couple of woodworking magazine contributors and a recent member is Alan Holtham who is well known here for his books, magazine articles and TV woodworking shows.
Here is a link to webpages he has made for Record Power (http://www.recordpower.co.uk/hints_list.asp) tools in UK.
There is a lot of usefull help on each page complete with photos.
We were honoured when he registered a few days ago after months of browsing as a guest.

[ryanarcher]

It was a second hand name from the family in the hovel next to ours, a bit thread bear but it was all we could affort, and by george I wore it proudly


Dude, Hovels have windows? all right, all right, I'll stop. :D
Thanks dewy, Great site!

[Alastair]

It was a second hand name from the family in the hovel next to ours, a bit thread bear but it was all we could affort, and by george I wore it proudly

My workshop was in shoebox in middle of road....

Sounds like all 4 of you come from Yorkshire!!

Alastair

[aljenit]

who names their little girl dave? wierd. :p
Thanks for replies to my thread,though we did get off track re:Dave's name? I have a question, should I keep my lathe mobile or is it better to have it fixed on a permanent bench?Thanks

[Dewy]

A lathe is a heavy bit of kit and needs to be on a firm base to prevent movement.
If it's on a mobile bench it could move while you have the chisel in your hand which could then be thrown anywhere.
For this reason, lathes should always be unmovable.

[DarrylF]

My workbench is almost there. The top slab is together & just about flat (still to do a final smoothing). The base is done of course. I cut the tenons on the end of the top slab yesterday. Also started mounting the vises. I should get most of the work on the skirts done today and hopefully do the final flatten & smooth tomorrow. Then to finish the top.

I'm going to hang back on drilling the dog holes for the time being. Once I have the whole lot together and start working with it I'll probably drill them in stages as I work out what I want.

I have 3 weeks off work - so I might actually finish this thing off and get to use it :)

[CoastWoodie]

Congratulation DarrylF on your work bench. I am a late coming to this thread but empathise with the deliberations everyone went through to get their ideal bench.

I went through that about 3 years ago. I eventually decided on a 3 metre version of the shaker work bench from the Workbench Book. I made it out of all recycled hardwood I had picked over 10 years of collecting and rescued guide posts that had fallen by the way side on the side of the road.

Took about a year of weekends to build and weighs in at an immovable quarter of a tonne. Actually if I take out all the 20 drawers and whip off the Tallowwood top I can move it.

One feature I added was to have a cut section in middle of the rear of the bench top so I could walk into the bench. Very handy for planning the other side of wide boards that are not the width of the bench. It also provides a handy clamping position.

One piece of advice a friend gave me after I finished it was to go home and hit with a chisel or a saw so I could get over being "precious" with it while new. After 3 years it is now just a great and reliable work horse.

Steve

[journeyman Mick]

..........I made it out of all recycled hardwood I had picked over 10 years of collecting and rescued guide posts that had fallen by the way side on the side of the road.........
Steve

Steve,
you don't happen to have a whoppin big bullbar on the front of your vehicle with which to make those guide posts fall by the way side do you? :D

Mick

[CoastWoodie]

Mick,

I have the next best thing. A bunch of teenages roaming the street or driving around in crap cars drunk who keep knocking them over. I give it 6 months and if they have not been fixed and repotted in that time I give them a new home.

In one street I found two posts that after dressing discovered they came from the same log and made a nice set of matched drawer fronts after some seasoning (air & time not salt & pepper).:)

Also termites chew off the base of some.

Steve

[Lucas]

DarrylF

did you ever finish the workbench
if so how about a couple of pics

[Dan]

http://www.aussiewoods.info/darryl/workbench.asp

[DarrylF]

What he said :)

Still love it - I don't think there's much I'd change about it if I had it to do again, except maybe build it sooner :)

[JDarvall]

You want a workbench that doesn't move right.. ? ....... If you don't wont to stuff around and your shore where you want it to go in your workshop go cement I reakon....not kidding..... Make a workbench frame with cement just like building a small 2 cornered wall .....screw together a mould with ply,,, say in a U shape (.... drill into your floor and hammer in some rio or whatever,,get your cement mixer out or wheelborrow and fill your mould with cement..then buy some old 4x2 timber, true up , glue together, flattern, then dinobolt it down ontop of your cement frame in say 4 places... in anyway you like... Then put your vices on and drill dogs etc......
So you'll end up with a bench that never moves when mortise chiseling or planing....
What you think ?

[Barry_White]

That's not really in the spirit of woodwork.

[echnidna]

And the first time you beat crap outa sumtin wif a great big heavy hammer the concrete crumbles. :D :D :D :D

[IanW]

Er, ever thought about sharpening some of your tools, fellers? ;)

Sheeit, man, you really don't need anything the mass of the Queen Mary for a workbench. I'm currently forced to use a bench I made 'portable' - i.e. it breaks down into bits an old man (me!) can carry, and weighs about 70Kg assembled. It is perfectly adequate to plane and chisel on, the only problem with it is it's a bit shorter and narrower than I'd prefer for eveyday use. I think you can carry the 'big and solid' maxim to extremes!!! :eek:
Cheers,

[Cliff Rogers]

... workbench that doesn't move ....... frame with cement ..... old 4x2 ....dinobolt ..... ontop of .. cement frame ..... a bench that never moves ..... What you think ?
Wow! I know a bloke here in Cairns that made a bed like that! :eek:

Fair dinkum, all he did different was put a matress on top of it before he started hammering away. :cool:

I think he hated squeaky beds. :D

[MajorPanic]

I'VE STARTED A REAL WORKBENCH!!! :eek: :eek:

Well...... sort of started, ;) I've ordered the timber for the top, it may take a few months to get it as it's still standing. :p

I reckon it'll be 3-4 months till it's cut & goes through the solar kiln.
I'm having the Silver Ash cut in 200 X 75 X 3500mm bitz with a couple of 120mm square pieces for the vice screws.

It'll be a monster @ 3000mm X 1000mm X 970mm, with 2 shoulder vices & 2 tail vices.
I have to find a new timber for the bench base as I've used most of my stock of 100mm square Rosewood on the bench I made for the F.I.L :(

Oh well... it's been on the boards for 10 years now so a few more months won't make that much difference :D

[bitingmidge]

This thread is about the PERFECT workbench Major, not some sloppy thing that doesn't even have matching timber in the legs and the top!!

At 3000 x 1000 I reckon the Majorette will have it in the dining room before you can say "OK I'll put the tail vices on later!"

Cheers,

P(you have been warned!)
:D

[MajorPanic]

This thread is about the PERFECT workbench Major, not some sloppy thing that doesn't even have matching timber in the legs and the top!!

At 3000 x 1000 I reckon the Majorette will have it in the dining room before you can say "OK I'll put the tail vices on later!"

Cheers,

P(you have been warned!)
:D Sorry Midge :o

Funny you should say that.... Since seeing some of the stuff at the Maleny show it's been........"it'd be nice to have a new dining table & matching chairs.... wouldn't it dear?"
I just mumble in the affirmative & quickly change the subject :D

[Cliff Rogers]

...the F.I.L :(....
would that be the lovely cook? IE: First In Line?


Mate, I'm sure the if you make a workbench, it'll be a work of art. :D

[boban]

Im confused Major, I thought I spied a nice workbench in your picture of your storage cabinet you just finished. Or is this just the big brother version?

I can see what Midge is saying, the bench is going to be so good that SWMNBO will slap a caveat on it before you finish.....better take a hammer and chisel to it during construction........ Now go and clean up that shed, Im sure there must be a spot of dust you missed..

[Cliff Rogers]

Im confused Major, I thought I spied a nice workbench in your picture of your storage cabinet you just finished. .....
Major has several workbenchs but... like full ashtrays in the car.... he thinks it's time he had a newer, nicer, neater, bigger, better one. :rolleyes:
There's paint spilt on the 'real' "work" bench so it's gotta go.:cool:

I couldn't see what was wrong with that wop'n bludy great big saw bench for stacking sheyet on, that's where I stacked my sheyet while I was there. :D

Major, if you get another bigger, better, work bench, you'll need a new, bigger, better, shed... :)

[JDarvall]

The spirit of woodwork ??? The benchtops wood isn't it..... do you mean its more important to toe the line ? do whats acceptable ?

And for cement crumbling,,,didn't happen with me,,, I've had one like this ,,,, Chiseled plenty of mortises out with it,,,,, but I suppose I don't use a sledgehammer instead of a mallet...

Of all the workbenches I've had its been the strongest,,, and the wooden ones I've made were plenty heavy and well jointed,,,,wedged mortise/tennon,,,,, didn't move ,,,lovely looking and all ....but of coarse mixing and pouring cement took a fraction of the time it took to make those....not that time should be an issue for everything,,,,,but for things where appearence is not important in my opinion I'd be just wasting my time,,,,,, do you have that sort of time to waste ? I'd be buggered if I do......

[TassieKiwi]

....but of coarse ......
,,,,,,indeed. 'nuff said.

[MajorPanic]

Im confused Major, I thought I spied a nice workbench in your picture of your storage cabinet you just finished. Or is this just the big brother version?

I can see what Midge is saying, the bench is going to be so good that SWMNBO will slap a caveat on it before you finish.....better take a hammer and chisel to it during construction........ Now go and clean up that shed, Im sure there must be a spot of dust you missed..
The bench I have at the moment is well over 100 years old & belonged to my wife's great,great grandfather. It's only small (just over 5' long) & is not heavy enough to be free standing. It tends to slide around on the floor if I do some heavy planing. :mad: I've cleated it to the wall & it is fine now but I'd like a bench with access all round. ;)

[JDarvall]

what !!!!! ......I don't see any cement in that parts list....

[ryanarcher]

I'VE STARTED A REAL WORKBENCH!!! :eek: :eek:

Well...... sort of started, ;) I've ordered the timber for the top, it may take a few months to get it as it's still standing. :p

I reckon it'll be 3-4 months till it's cut & goes through the solar kiln.
I'm having the Silver Ash cut in 200 X 75 X 3500mm bitz with a couple of 120mm square pieces for the vice screws.

It'll be a monster @ 3000mm X 1000mm X 970mm, with 2 shoulder vices & 2 tail vices.
I have to find a new timber for the bench base as I've used most of my stock of 100mm square Rosewood on the bench I made for the F.I.L :(

Oh well... it's been on the boards for 10 years now so a few more months won't make that much difference :D



I can Not WAIT for the pics :eek: .

Boban, if you thought my sawhorses were nice, they will be crap compared to major's new workbench.

[MajorPanic]

This picture is from the Workbench Book & shows Harold Foss' bench.
Mine will be similar but it will have 2 shoulder vices as well as the 2 tail vices. :eek: :cool:

http://www.majorpanic.com/images/woodwork/BB/bench-1.jpg

[boban]

I can Not WAIT for the pics :eek: .

Boban, if you thought my sawhorses were nice, they will be crap compared to major's new workbench.
We all wait in anticipation........

[IanW]

Mine will be similar but it will have 2 shoulder vices as well as the 2 tail vices. :eek: :cool:

Oi Major, 'Ow many arms and legs you got???? :eek: :eek:

[MajorPanic]

Oi Major, 'Ow many arms and legs you got???? :eek: :eek:

G'day Ian

I've got somewhere around the required quantity. :p

[IanW]

G'day Ian

I've got somewhere around the required quantity. :p


Tha's alright then - I wuz just wondering how you can use four vices at the corners of what's shaping up to be a humongous bench, all at once. :confused:

Not being critical, just a bit jealous (ok, a LOT jrealous!) of someone who's got enough room to get at all sides of a bench! :cool:
It's one of my lifelong fantasies, to have a bench right out in the middle of a well-lit, well-ventilated area.

Did someone suggest the front yard? :(
Cheers,

[Hagrid]

Major

just woundering how your bench is or is not comming along.

Regards

Hagrid

[MajorPanic]

Major

just woundering how your bench is or is not comming along.

Regards

Hagrid
Hi ya Hagrid,

Well, the bench is somewhat stalled at the moment. :o

The Silver Ash has been cut & has to do 3-4 months of primary air drying just stripped & stacked. :rolleyes:
I'm hoping it'll go into the kiln late September or early October. It should spend several cycles in the kiln as the boards are 75mm thick.
I'm not altogether sure how long a cycle is going to take.
I reckon I've found all the sources for the hardware so I'll order that in September.

[jimhanna]

I’m currently making my first workbench. I’ve always had a few tools, my dad’s old plane, a saw and a couple of chisels (and enjoyed watching Norm Abram) but I got hooked about a year ago when the local hardware store were selling a cheap router complete with a bench top table.
<BR>
I’ve made a few small bits and pieces, the only other large project I’ve made to date is a set of drawers for storage in the garage.
<BR>
The workbench is made out of cheap 70 x 44 mm planed timber on sale at the local DIY store.
<BR>
I had a number of design criteria which influenced the size and position of the long stretchers.
<BR>
1. I needed a 440 high space underneath the bench to store the bench top router table when not in use. That’s why the long stretchers are an unusual orientation with the biggest dimension horizontal.
<BR>2. I wanted a toe space
<BR>3. I wanted space underneath the bench top so I can get at the bottom of dogholes if I wanted to bolt through anything.
<BR>
Since the bench is small I wanted a leg at each corner for stability and to maximise underbench storage. However my garage floor isn’t flat, there’s a slight hump against the wall around the edges, so I had to overhang the top at the back of the bench to let me push it up against the wall and keep it level.
<BR>
I ended up with a 70 mm laminated slab top, 1360 x 610 mm, with a double front and back stretcher ( two bits laminated together for 70x88) and similar ( again 70 x 88 mm) legs.
<BR>
All stretchers are parallel to the top edge and I’ve embedded M8 T-nuts behind a few holes in the top front and end stretchers to allow clamping of vertical boards against the side of the bench or to bolt a planing stop at the end of the bench.
<BR>
The top stretcher has a shelf to allow storage of long clamps and to prevent sawdust falling through the dogholes onto the bottom shelf. The top shelf is set below the upper edge of the stretcher, allows me to hook over a sliding deadman board to clamp long items with the face vise.
<BR>
Bottom shelf is flush with the bottom stretcher, supported on a lattice made with halving joints.
<BR>
End frames are M&T plus glue.
Long stretchers are unglued M&T joints with a through M10 bolt.
<BR>
The pics below show the current unfinished state, I’ve still to fix the tail vise jaws and drill the dog holes once I decide how many dog holes I need, plus I need to glue and flush cut 18mm dowel to clean up the top vise bolt holes.
<BR>
Top is secured to the base with lag bolts, fixed at the front and in a slotted hole in the top stretcher towards the rear to allow for movement in the top slab.
<BR>
There’s no movement in the frame at all, I’ll certainly keep this if I ever change the bench top.
<BR>
A stable bench makes things so much easier, trying to clamp and plane on a flimsy folding bench was a nightmare.

[Cliff Rogers]

Good one Jim, welcome aboard & thnks for sharing. :2tsup: