Glues etc

[John Saxton]

I thought that it was abouit time that this topic was raised again.
Can we have some input to what peoples preferences are in regards to glues/pastes etc whether PVA,hide or hot gluegun and the wheres and whyfors to help those that may assist those innitiates to the crafts or for those in general need of the input?
Personally I use PVA which predominately has a short shelf life but allows you time to arrange your set-up re-clamping etc.
With woodturning I use a hot glue gun with its quick setting time with occasionally cyanoacrylic glue if doing pens or very small articles.
Cheers http://ubb.ubeaut.com.au/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
Johnno

[STEPHEN MILLER]

John
I prefer PVA for most things due to its strength and work ability ,but things requiring a little moe speed than PVA liquid nails or similar is the go Hot glue guns are good for small jobs but glue sticks get a bit pricy for big jobs plus glue goes off to quick if you want to do a big run.

[Iain]

I was talking to Mr Weldbond at WWW and he informed me that the white glue was ideal for softwoods and the yellow for hardwoods. I like the yellow and use it for a multitude of things. I use the cryoa....... you know the one.... a yellow pack for quick jobs.
Hot glue as Stephen points out is good for little jobs but a long run and the start is set before you are. Have tried araldite and been very dissapointed, reckon yellow weldbond is better. Have yet to try the Veritas chair glue but their rave indicates it swells the wood and then sets, I'd like to see that. I've got some old chairs that need restoring and I may just give it a go.
My 2.2 cents worth including GST.

[Shane Watson]

Johnno,

If there was going to be one 'All Round' glue. It would have to be Hide Glue. Restorers of 'Antiques' swear by it and shouldn't use much else.

But, it aint the most practicle to use and can certainly be difficult to use if your not setup to use it, by that I mean a good melting pot etc. For sure people that use hide glue day in and out will disagree with me, but they do use it regularly and I am presumming most people that will read this probably won't even know what hide glue is.

So 'In My Opinion' all woodworkers should have available to them several different types of glues to suit different gluing applications.

In my workshop I have four. P.V.A, Araldite(5min stuff), 2-part Crosslinking P.V.A & 2-part Modified ureaformaldahyde.
P.V.A - is used for minor repairs or where glue is only minimumly required, eg splinters, damaged veneer, dovetail joints etc.
Araldite - is used for repairs that require a good strong bond. eg doweling broken legs etc.
Crosslinking P.V.A - is used for majority of my joint gluing, eg chairs, cabinets etc.
Modified Ureaformeldahyde - is used solely for edge gluing, eg table tops, panels etc

Thats what I have come to find ( mainly by trail and error ) best suited to my needs. I won't change the glues I use because I know for a fact they work for the purpose I use them. And they work well in my environment. Not all glues, like finishes, will work the same in varying environments.

Heres a Link to AV Syntec (http://www.avsyntec.com.au/) who manufacture adhesives. And yes thats the brand I use. Also check out this link to a study performed by AV Syntec testing different glues in different applications to ascertain the best glue for each application. Bonding Australian Hardwoods (http://www.avsyntec.com.au/adhesive/case3.htm)

When I was having a lot of trouble with raised glue lines or joint creep. I was put onto these guys who sent one of there reps to see me and my operation, and he was the only person who could answer my questions and help me fix my problems. What I am saying there, is that he helped me find the best glues for my needs, mainly AV260 and AV203. Pricewise I buy them cheaper than the glues for sale at the local hardware stores or what you would find at a bunnings etc.

Fact is, of all the manufacturers I know locally, they all glue differently. Unfortunatly a lot only use P.V.A for all applications and deny responsibility down the track. One guy uses nothing but Araldite, how he affords it I dont know! But he swears by it.

I will tell ya this much though, nothing will help ease your mind more about using a glue, than to test it yourself. Do up some samples using your favorite glue, samples of the different applications you use, let them dry then break em! If they break damn easy along the joint - get another glue. If it won't break or breaks the timber rather than the joint, your on the right track. It may seem all a little over the top, but at least this way you avoid the salesman pitch.

Cheers



------------------
Shane Watson..

Combine Love & Skill & You Can Expect A Masterpiece!

[John Saxton]

Thanks guys for the input which is there for a guide to us all and from which we can learn and more so if in a rut with set ideas.
Shane, your response is both informative and interesting to say the least.
I generally buy my PVA in 4litre containers and dont always get to finish it before it's shelf life has expired but by that time there is not a lot left anyway and I reckon I'm saving money buying it in that size.
Cheers http://ubb.ubeaut.com.au/ubb/smile.gif

[ubeaut]

Hide glue as Shane says would have to be the all rounder especially for restoration but also for those who manufacture high quality fine furniture, that is designed to be handed down through the generations.

This is to my knowledge the only glue that is reparable and will bond easily to itself. This also makes it very attractive for use when gluing up woodcarvings, etc. as the joints can be undone if there is a need. It would have to be the most versatile glue on the market.

It can also be mixed with talc and used as a gap filling glue, gesso for decorative finishes, and even a great grain filler. On top of that it is completely organic. Bit stinky though especially if you have it in a sealed container and forget it for a few weeks http://ubb.ubeaut.com.au/ubb/eek.gif

Here comes the add. If you wish to get some to try out we just happen to sell it. It comes in 200g, 500g & 1kg packs along with instructions for use, including how to make a makeshift glue pot.

Cheers - Neil http://ubb.ubeaut.com.au/ubb/smile.gif

[ubeaut]

A quick word on Weld Bond white glue.

It is the only glue that I have ever had fail in a joint, not once but a number of times in classes and a number of different bottles.

It seems that they were all brought by my students from the same shop, where they had frozen during a cold spell. This caused the problem. It is a known problem to the Weld Bond people as it was them who told me of it.

So. Don't freeze your Weld Bond. Weather or not this is a problem with the yellow glue or any other brands of glues I do not know but it would be nice to find out.

[John Saxton]

I remember using hide glue in my formative years at school.The smell was fairly hefty to say the least but I thought perhaps that was because it was an animal based product.
I can recall my teacher giving the job of maintaining a full pot to those that were a disruptive influence in the class.
Readings I have seen all relate to the reliability of hide glue and the best in restoration work because of its noted qualities.
Cheers http://ubb.ubeaut.com.au/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
Johnno

[humidor]

Instead of bl**dy expensive araldite try Selleys 308 - its only a little expensive!?- needs to be weighed accurately when mixed but actually goes a long way- water resistant & gap filling. For good balance scales under $50 try Smokemart(I think they use 'em for that funny tabaccy & they'll probably look sideways at you if you tell 'em the scales are for woodwork- honest.) Once again different glues for diff. jobs.Lots of good advice above. Get stuck in!

[STEPHEN MILLER]

another glue if you want a super strong bond is a 2 part type made Massey Ferguson tractor makers they make it to glue the crown gear in one of their tractors to the hub plus bolts used as well .It will glue pulleys etc on to shafts and has to be heated red hot to break joint. So for repairs on equipment its excellent ,have seen it used alloy car heads where water has cut a grove in head gasket surface and grove has been filled with this machined down goods as new . All this might be totally useless to woodies but if the pulley on the drive comes lose on your lathe and you have trouble keeping it this stuff is the go will fill a bit of a gap where as loctite needs fairly close fits.
regards stephen

[Lance]

I prefer PVA Glue, I have made Casein glue, it works very well, dries clear, but has a few disadvantages. It supposedly can go moldy or mildewy, atracts insects and mice. You can add an anti fungal treatment though. I found Casein glue difficult to get to a smooth consistency. I don't know if it has a shelf life.

The quantites I use (250ml lasts for months) it is not worth the effort of making glue.
Boyle make a cheaper than Aquadhere PVA ($4 for 250ml), Aussie made too.

cheers,
Lance

[ubeaut]

Cheaper is not always better. Neither is the most readily available.

You will go along way to find much better than AV Symtec's range of glues.

There is also a polyurethane glue on the market that is extremely good. Used mainly for boat building, but we have used it in our harp making classes with great success. I think it is available through Carba Tec. If not try the yellow pages under boat builders and ask around.

[John Saxton]

Neil I have just checked their (AV Symtec)distribution areas and at present they dont have outlets in WA so us poor country cousins are gonna have to wait until they get their act over here!!
Cheers http://ubb.ubeaut.com.au/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
Johnno

[Shane Watson]

Contact them direct Johnno. They were prepared to sell to me direct and I have a local supplier ( although he dont stock it!! He orders it in as required ). So send em an email and see what they say. When postage was added it worked out a little cheaper to order it through the local guy as he buys it at a lower cost. But it is good stuff, beats all those more readily available stuff.. aquadhere for example. And if ya followed that link I posted up above you can see they test there products under a watchful eye, so they are obviously keen on being a market leader with quality materials. One might say ya cant go wrong with them. Maybe maybe not.
check it out anyway, it definitly cannot hurt http://ubb.ubeaut.com.au/ubb/biggrin.gif

Cheers



------------------
Shane Watson..

Combine Love & Skill & You Can Expect A Masterpiece!

[Merinda]

Afternoon all,

I make possum boxes and I used to use Purweld 645 - which I can't get any more. What sort of alternative could I use?

I make my boxes from free stuff from my timber yard and the wood is not straight so the foaming polyurethane was fabulous for filling holes as I butt-jointed.

Thanks
Merinda

[dr4g0nfly]

My normal choice is Yellow Glue, but if it's to go outside into the weather, polyurethane (Guerilla) glue is one on the top of my must use list.

There is no one Glue that does everything, but there is a place for most glues in the workshop so have a variety handy,

If your sticking two things together and want a hint as to what sort of glue you need - try this link,

This to That (http://www.thistothat.com/)

[AlexS]

Selleys make a polyurethane that's probably equivalent to what you've used previously. Poly is probably the best for your purposes.

[Astrodog]

This must be one of the oldest threads alive on the web today! :q

[Master Splinter]

Epoxy is always a good alternative - I'm not talking about Araldite, but a proper marine grade epoxy (which works out much cheaper, as well as being stronger).

Apply it thin (as mixed, it's about the thickness of honey) to the mating surfaces, then fill gaps or create fillets for extra strength by mixing the epoxy to a thick consistency with sawdust or talc or even proper epoxy filler powder. There's a very good guide to what you can do with it (http://www.westsystem.com), and there are plenty of good suppliers.

All you really need to do is make sure you pay attention to the mixing ratio (either 2:1 or 5:1 depending on brand) and you're good.