Diamond tool holder

[Pete F]

G'day Guys, I'm wondering if anyone has tried the diamond tool holder on their Hercus? http://www.eccentricengineering.com.au/ I am still using the lantern style tool post (which I don't really like), but thought this may be an option before I change to a QCTP.

Pete

[wannabe]

I've read good reports on the internet about using one of these tools. I think one of the sites was an Australian one. They intruiged me and want to have a go at making one just to try it out but haven't got around to it yet. Another thing on the gunna list.

[Penpal]

I have had one for years, misplaced it some time ago. For mine the cutting tools you shape yourself from hss bar are better and less fuss, also if you look at the shape in the holder it gets bulky to manouver real quick.If you can make things yourself later on in the week I will take an individual pic of a simple but excellent tool holder to make that is fast to set up, does not take up much room . That tool you spoke of the Diamond tool is not cheap either, is made in Australia from memory in Victoria, I found it in a model engineering magazine.

Regards to all. Peter:2tsup:

[Pete F]

Hey Peter, yeah that's the one. I thought the cost wasn't TOO bad, considering it's the tool holder and the grinding jig, but yes, certainly no bargain by the same token.

[bitza500]

Hi Pete, I emailed and got all the Hype on the tool holder and holder to grind the tool
It was not a cheap item and quite a few different sizes The size of the Holder itself may be your downfall as you may not be able to get centre height
It is a brilliant idea and my mate swears by the one he has but has got a bigger lathe

I think it boils down to what you want to machine and how many times do you swap the HSS tool over to do your work
As a Home Hobbyist it would be a good investment as they supply the holder to grind your tool so is a time saver that way

I am still tossing it around as I have so much HSS tool steel from 3/16" to 1/2" which is brand new that I just about stole on America's Ebay

Have you emailed or phoned them and got all the gist of their cutting tool holder as I was impressed but it does not come cheap but quality never is cheap

all the best derekbitza500

[Pete F]

Yeah I emailed them but haven't got a reply. On their US site they list one for the Southbend 9" so it should be identical to the Hercus. I believe the width is the difference so it can fit in the lantern post. They don't even list this one on their Oz site????

I'm not sure what to do with it, but will wait to hear from them. I think the fact that the tool is so easy to sharpen will encourage me to do it more often rather that saying "she'll be right" for (yet) another job. While I fully intend to restore my Hercus, to me it's just a tool, and not something that provides a hobby in its own right (if that makes sense). ie I enjoy making things rather than the process of making. If I can buy something that extends the utility of the tool then it's cheap to me.

The alternative is just to trash the whole tool post and put the money straight to a QCTP. It doesn't provide the ease of sharpening, but has numerous other advantages we all know.

Pete

[bitza500]

Hi Pete, before you go out spending look at what you have got work out how much you use what you have got
Does the cost of buying either setup going to be well used

This is the Number 1 of Hobby lathes It is all nice and good to have all the new fandangled tools but if you only use the lathe once a week it is not Money well spent

I bought a set of 8 x 3/8" carbide cutting tools on ebay $42 delivered and I took it to my Toolmaker mate to have a look

Well I no longer own 8 x carbide tools

Within 10 minutes of me being there he tried the internal screwcutting tool Brilliant
then he machine the diameter with a standard carbide tool Brilliant
Then he screwcut a external thread with my carbide tool

Now he had a piece of 4140 Steel all I know is it is a very hard steel and this cheap $42.00 set has worked cutting the 4140 and no problem

as for mounting he has a 4 way toolpost holder
He just shims to centre height and off he goes and this is a Toolmaker who was amazed that they did not chip or break Mind you I still have not been paid back
but last Monday I was there and he had used all 8 Carbide bits at a lot faster rate than a Hercus goes and all 8 were still untouched by the grinder

So for $42.00 I got 8 cutting tools that a toolmaker has yet to break or chip
and am going to buy another set when he pays me back

Does that sound better investment and cost efficent
I think the store is ozemstore on ebay they are just 8 blue coloured tools and well it depends how deep your pocket is

all the best Derek bitza500

[Pete F]

Ah, well I guess that's my point, in a way. At the moment I have the standard lantern tool post so it only takes 1/4" tools, very difficult to find in carbide I've found. Not impossible, just difficult. I still haven't found any of that size with insert tips. So I have a tool post I don't like using (it's missing the little rocker thing too, though I can centre ok), tools I find fiddly to sharpen, and little opportunity to use insert tools. While I can centre the tools because the tool holder is fixed in position the angles sometimes work out a bit weird and I have to regrind the tool. Painful. So changing the tool post is the logical thing to do.

Now clearly changing to the diamond tool holder doesn't cover all of the above, but it would almost certainly mean I'd keep the tools sharp and has a few other advantages. To be perfectly honest I really only use brass, steel, and alu so HSS tools are just fine. I've also got about 2 lifetimes worth of 1/4" HSS that the holder takes. IF I could find the correct size 4 way for a reasonable price I'd probably just slap that on. On the other hand eventually I'll almost certainly get a QCTP so I wonder if it's worth mucking about with anything else in the meanwhile. What got me seriously thinking about the diamond however was the video of it being used on the US site. It was very easy to centre and (as a beginner) I like the idea of the tool being pushed away from the work if I crash the lathe ... again :) The bottom line is each alternative has it's advantages. I've heard some good things about the diamond holder but we'll see.

Pete

[pipeclay]

Pete if your lathe is up and running and you have a drill press why not just make your own 4way tool post, comes out around $30.

[Pete F]

Yeah that's something I considered and asked that question on another forum to confirm how I intended to do it. The trouble is I'm not much in the mood for "making tools for my tools" as I have a few other things on "yesterday's to do list" :( Bolting something on is certainly a more appealing option within cost reason. If I should go with that diamond tool holder I'll let you guys know how it goes, but I sent them an email a few days ago through their web site, and you know in principle I'm a bit reluctant to have to chase them up. Some Australian companies I think are a bit poor in this regard to be honest. Look at this example, we all think it's no bargain, I am possibly prepared to buy one at this "premium" price, yet they can't be bothered replying. If it was in the US I would have had a reply by next day! Business must be good.

[bitza500]

Hi pete, the last time I was scrounging through Newmac's bits and pieces there were a couple of 4 way toolpost holders
I have no idea as to the size but if I get a chance I will call in as I have to scrounge for a T Handle for my toolpost holder
But I may not get there tommorow but as I am assembling I am needing parts and Dave let's me go through his wall and bench and shelves looking for parts for myself I know what the original looks like as it is sitting on top of the Tassie Devil 1941 lathe so leave it with me and will get back to you if there is something that is going to be the right size
all the best Derekbitza500

[wannabe]

If you get the Diamond Tool Holder I think you are only delaying the inevitable and will still eventually end up buying a QCTP. Based on what I've read here you are tossing up between the two. I've heard good reports of these diamond tool holders but the QCTP is by far the most versatile. As for grinding you can quit easily make up a small grinding jig for grinding the HSS. After all that's all the jig is they are supplying. Nothing a hacksaw and file can't achieve. The angles don't have to be exact, just in the ball park.

[Pete F]

Hi pete, the last time I was scrounging through Newmac's bits and pieces there were a couple of 4 way toolpost holders
I have no idea as to the size but if I get a chance I will call in as I have to scrounge for a T Handle for my toolpost holder

Great, thanks for that! :)

Regarding the QCTP you're probably right, but the other one would certainly do for a while. Actually since getting the lathe I really haven't even had a chance to go through it to set up and check it properly. Reasonably well levelled (but not perfect) and boom, start turning. I was using it the other day and realised that I will possibly have to remove some shims from the bearings. If I'm going to do that then it would be stupid not to fully strip and repaint the headstock at the same time (it got a cheap "paint overhaul" before I got it, grrrr) ... if I do that then basically rebuild the whole lathe at the same time ... now it's a big job :doh: For the moment I'll try to keep my tools sharp and pretend it's turning round :U

[blackfrancis]

Hi Pete

If you want to do something about the bearings, put the faceplate on and grab it with both hands, then try and rock it with all your strength. If the bearings are loose you will feel it move. If the wear is minimal you can pull a shim out and tighten up the bearings to get rid of the slack. The shims aren't necessary, so if you adjust it without it being tight down on the shim all will be fine. If you can't get rid of all the play even when the bolt is tightened up too much because of serious wear then things are more difficult. If it's really really worn the lathe will still work fine though. When I was a kid my dad got an old WW2 vintage southbend 9" which was more worn than you could possibly imagine. I made heaps of stuff on it and it worked fine, just lacked accuracy in a big way. Eventually we had the bed reground at hercus, I scraped the saddle to match the newly ground bed and eventually I reground the spindle on a cylindrical grinder, bored out the headstock on my hercus that I had since acuired and turned up some bushes for the headstock. There is tons of meat in the headstock bearings, it's like they made them to have room for bushes. After all this the lathe was very accurate, the funny thing is it didn't actually turn any better than when it was completly clapped out, the only differnence was that the oil stayed in the bearings for ever. On a hercus the oil always runs out of the bearings, they didn't fully copy the southbend design of the oiling mechanism which is much better.

The moral of the story, if you just want to use the machine as is, go ahead and do it. It will work fine :2tsup:

Cheers
Steve

[Pete F]

Faceplate, ah what faceplate :U It's funny how something that seems to be good value initially turns out not to be so. I hindsight I'd say to somebody considering buying a lathe to try to find one with as many accessories as possible (quite apart from wear etc etc). Trying to find them later is frustrating, expensive, and often difficult. To give an example, mine is a C model; it didn't come with change gears :C

Anyway, as for spindle wear, I'd be surprised if the spindle itself was worn, I'm guessing that removing some cap shims will fix it up just fine. As you said Steve, it works well enough for what I need right now, but there is definitely spindle movement vertically if I grab it, exactly how much I couldn't tell you, but I'd suggest a lot more than it should have. I'd bet the bearings haven't been touched since it left the factory however. I know I checked it when dropped it in place and it's certainly not turning quite round, but again good enough for now. It will most likely get its overhaul next year when all these things will be properly addressed.

[bitza500]

Hi Pete, are you still wanting 1/4" Carbide cutting Tools I was just looking at eBay on the site where I bought my tools and there is a 38 piece 1/4" Carbide cutting tools for $58.00 if you want to look item number 270309501832 This is ozmestore I have no Affiliation with them except spending a few Thousand Dollars over the years he also has a 4 way toolpost head only but never looked any closer
So That is a quick fix till you make up your mind
all the bestDerek bitza500

[Pete F]

Nice, thanks for that, seems a reasonable price too.

[12teethperinch]

G'day Guys, I'm wondering if anyone has tried the diamond tool holder on their Hercus? http://www.eccentricengineering.com.au/ I am still using the lantern style tool post (which I don't really like), but thought this may be an option before I change to a QCTP.

Pete

I hope that I am not breaking any rules by linking to another site, but its a very humorous post and may help you with your dilemma.
Darrell
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=31901

[12teethperinch]

Hi Guys.
Well after reading the funny post that I linked to in the previous post I was inspired to have a go at making my own tool holder. Now this was very quick to build in fact it will take longer to resize the photos and write this post then it took to build the holder, about an hour and a half. In the first photo are the main components a ¼ inch drive socket a piece of ½” high carbon bar in an annealed state (a pry bar that was in my friends shed when it burnt down) and a beer. Now that beer may play a role later. In the second photo is the setup I used to determine what angle the tool would need to be held at to present a natural 60 degrees for threading without needing any special grinding. In photo three is the bar with the angle cut. In photo 4 a setup for milling the bar for the socket to seat into. In photo 5 the socket being heated to red hot to burn off the chrome and to anneal (I have done a lot of stuff with tool steel over the years and found it unnecessary to bury in sand or ashes for things to anneal properly, as long as you heat upon something that acts as a heat sink to let the part cool slowly). In photo 6 is the set up for welding. In photo 7 is the part after welding. In photo 8 the part being tapped. In photo 9 set up in the band saw to be split. In photo10 a shot in the lathe. In 11 another angle. In summery this was a fun thing to build, it seemed to work ok. In the end the angle wasn’t correct for threading after all (probably due to third item in the first photo.
Darrell

[blackfrancis]

Hi Darrell

Looks pretty cool, some pretty serious clearance on the threading tool though. I can't get the homeshop machinist site to load. Can anyone else, or is it just me?

Anyway I calculate that the angle between the two blades of your protractor from the second photo should have been 35.26 deg. Does that sound right?

Cheers
Steve

[12teethperinch]

Hi Steve
The angle I came up with was 35 degrees the set up was a little crude so I expect your number is correct. How did you come up with it?
You are right about 35 degrees giving a lot of overhang, the holder I made was made at 35 perpendicular to the bar not 35 degrees from the horizontal like it should have been, and it still hung out a fair bit. I think I may make a new one with less angle and not worry about it not working for threading, I believe even the real holder wont thread without an extra grind. I have some solid ¼” round carbide from the shafts of some router bits that broke, I am going to grind one up and see how it works in the holder
Darrell

[blackfrancis]

I like it. I might make one up, grind proper clearance on the tool by hand, and then see how long it lasts just grinding the top face for sharpening. If it's good I might make something better eventually.

I just calculated that angle using trig, I had to draw quite a few triangles.

I'm able to load the homeshopmachinist site at work, finally saw the thread you mentioned.

Steve

[Pete F]

Ok I've given the company 2 weeks or so to get back to me. They can't be bothered so I can't be bothered buying it from them :((