Bill Cart #1

[mick59wests]

Hi all,

at the moment my toy interest is in ride on cars. I got a plan (from a library book) for an upmarket billy cart. It is not in the same class/finishing as an 'Aussie car' but I am more than happy with it. I plan to make a smaller version all out of cedar.

Some features of the car:
- all the wood has been scrounged - mostly from council cleanups. This is one advantage of living in Sydney!
- the curved bonnet are the slats from a cedar venetian blind (also from council cleanup).
- I did all shaping of parts on an el cheapo Ryobi band saw
- the wheels are from 3 wheeler prams. One I got for free and the other I paid $10 for (lots on EBay). I did not have the heart to tell the previous owner I was pulling it all apart for the wheels on a billy cart!
- the brakes caused me the most thought. Finally I worked out that if I make the radius of the brake the same as the wheel and then ensure that the pivot point (the fixing screw) is in the right position that I will get maximum friction on the tyre. I also added some old leather to the inside of the break for this to go against the tyre. I still need to add a spring so the brakes will 'sit' just off the wheel. I also attached nylon string to the other ends of the brakes and a piece of wood so they could be easily pulled from inside the billy cart.

Any questions on it please ask.

Also, are there any other billy cart makers out there? What I am interested in is:
- a better braking system
- adding a steering wheel. I have seen how this can be done with rope attached to the front axle and wrapped around a broom stick. Has anyone ever tried this and if so, how well did it work?

thanks

Mick

PS: Yes - my workshop is my lounge room!

[Old farmer]

Mick, that is beautiful work, a Ferrari of billy-carts. I hope the braking system works!
Nearly 70 years ago, we built and rode billy-carts but, of course, did not need worry about cars or gutters.
One young cove, whose father thought well of himself, had the broom-stick steering idea but, if I am remembering correctly, it was very slow in getting any turn.
How do you get away with using the lounge room as your workshop???

[AUSSIE]

http://www.bugatti.com/img/bugatti_logo.gif (http://www.bugatti.com/en)Here (http://www.bugatti.com/en/tradition/bugatti-models/t54.html) I love your billy cart.
Years ago we tried the rope trick but ended up using the same steering as on old pedal cars.It is more reliable.At least it was when we did it as kids.I am now 62.
The hand brake?You can use the handbrake from an old push bike.Find them beside the old prams when you are looking for wheels.The people haven't time to ride them after having the kids .LOL.
Like Old farmer,I am not keen on the handbrake.Could be hard on the knuckles or dig into turf if you go over some rough stuff.They were best towards the back of the cart behind the wheel.We all had them as kids and spent a bit of time getting them to work.
Also had flat ones for collecting papers and bottles to sell to bottle merchant.
Gave us a lot of money to spend (we thought)and kept us out of trouble.
Once again I love your billycart and waiting for number 2:2tsup:.By the way ,I also noticed the tools etc in the house.How do you get away with that?
I had one of those small bandsaws,but couldnt keep the blades up to it.How is yours?
Cheers Ross

[mick59wests]

:)Thanks for the comments and encouragement.

I live in a villa with my daughter. She has the dining room table for all her beading and I have half the lounge room as my workshop. I also have a tablesaw combo table with a router mounted out on my porch and a lathe in the garage of my partners place.

I had wondered if the rope steering wheel would be too slow and will think about whether I use it for my next car.
So far I have not given the brakes a test as I just finished yesterday and it was raining all day. I'll let you know how they go.

If my brakes work OK, I will try to make them as foot brakes for my next car but I expect I will need to use a proper cable to get the power.

cheers

Mick :)

[munruben]

Looks great Mick. I would have reservations over the braking system and was wondering if it might be possible to work a brake off the axle rather than the tyre.Guess it would depend on how much room you have between the underside of the car and and the axle. Or maybe a disc could be attached to the axle close to the wheel I was thinking along the lines of a disc attached to the axle and probably a caliper brake like that of a bicycle. Just an idea but maybe something simpler and effective will be suggested here.
Very interesting project.

[mick59wests]

John,

I like the idea of a disc on the axle and a caliper. Unfortunately, the back wheels can now NOT be removed so that will make it more tricky. However, it is certainly one to look at for my next car. Also, if the current brakes are useless I may have to do something anyway!

thanks

Mick

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Many moons ago, I tried building a steering wheel into one of my billy carts using a bell-crank type setup.

Basically, an extra long U-bolt through the centre of the front axle (straddling the pivot bolt) and an L-shaped lever welded to the steering shaft, with the other end running through the U-bolt.

It worked. Sorta. :rolleyes: But needed a LOT of strength to wrestle into keeping even a semblance of a straight line. Really needed a full, adult-sized steering wheel to give the necessary leverage. :-

A "proper" steering linkage setup such as in the ol' kid's treadle cars would've been much, much better (and safer) but was well beyond my skill at the time. :sigh:

[artme]

:o Beautiful work Mick! :2tsup::2tsup::2tsup:

[mick59wests]

I'll do further investigation into steering. I'm not much of a mechanic so will need to do some study first and examine steering on existing toys. I nearly bought one on E-bay and may eventually do this so I can use the steering with a steering wheel.

I tried the brakes and the one that I had done properly (same radius and close to same thickness as the tyre) worked pretty well. Unfortunately my ropes to pull the brakes broke off the piece of wood they were pulling against (ie: the big piece just in front of the seat). I think I will modify them by adding a piece directly to the end of each piece of wood which you can pull on. I also intend to add springs so they sit just off the wheel.

I also crahed the 'toy'. I turned too sharply. I expect it would be safer if the front axle was bigger (ie: more distance between the two front wheels). It seems to me that this would give more stability and probably not turn as sharply. Any comments on this? I also expect it would not be as bad for someone lighter than me.

Looks like at least some more work. If I redo the front axle, this will be fairly major as the wheels are using their original axle so I will have to think of something else - perhaps cutting in half.

I am still looking for ideas

cheers

Mick

[Chipman]

Could try cable or good strong rope...may need aa couple of pulleys and wrap the cable around the steering shaft a few times.

Have seen this type of steering on a ful sized/real road "steam" roller using chain.

Cheers,
Chipman

[horse123]

What a great cart, my farther in law wants to do a similar cart , but he wants to do it as a pedal car.
But cant find 9" or 12" wheels to suit, has any one got any ideas, i have searched the web with no luck?

[Buzza]

A very reliable but sudden emergency brake is a good idea for these carts. These are made from scraps as well. For each side rear wheel, you need a length of chain, and a piece of flat heavt duty r8bber. Maybe a piece of tyre tread will do. Fix the rubber to the chain, and then bolt the chain to a substantial part of the cart frame. The rubber is the suspended just in front of the rear wheel. In an emergency, the rubbers are dropped, they go under the wheel, and the chain snaps taut. Almost an instant halt is achieved.

Not a new idea, they were used on carts pulled by horsies. :)

For your great work of art, I would consider a proper steering setup (Go-Cart?) and maybe even an electric motor to make her plod along with a kid at the wheel. :cool:

[AUSSIE]

A very reliable but sudden emergency brake is a good idea for these carts. These are made from scraps as well. For each side rear wheel, you need a length of chain, and a piece of flat heavt duty r8bber. Maybe a piece of tyre tread will do. Fix the rubber to the chain, and then bolt the chain to a substantial part of the cart frame. The rubber is the suspended just in front of the rear wheel. In an emergency, the rubbers are dropped, they go under the wheel, and the chain snaps taut. Almost an instant halt is achieved.

Not a new idea, they were used on carts pulled by horsies. :)

For your great work of art, I would consider a proper steering setup (Go-Cart?) and maybe even an electric motor to make her plod along with a kid at the wheel. :cool:
Just a thought,you may need an airbag and seat belt to hold you in place after deploying this brake.We used our shoes on the ground to stop in a hurry or stop it turning over.
Aussie

[mick59wests]

Buzza,

I have 'plans' to build a number of these (well ideas really). My next one planned (at this stage) is to be a smaller cedar kart with a foot brake and a steeering wheel. I would then like to build a 3-wheeler with a bicycle pedal, chain, wheel and brakes for the back.

I do have plans from a library book which also includes a motor. When I get the above two built I will then look at a motorised one as an extension to the 3-wheeler above. Putting in go-cart type steering would definitely be better than my current method!

Anyway, I'll see how I go over the next couple of years. real work is taking up far too much of my woodworking time!!

I can't say I am too keen on your brakes, not without (as Aussie suggested) an air-bag, seat belt, crash helmet......:)

cheers

Mick

[bpj1968]

Have a look at
http://www.diygokarts.com/kart-plans/steering-plan-assembly.html
Simple design for steering.

http://www.diygokarts.com/kart-plans/steering-plan-spindles.html
Shows to allow for some castor and camber. Makes it more stable, unike a shopping trolley with dodgy wheel

[Yonnee]

Nice work Mick.

Is there any reason why those rims wouldn't accept a standard pushbike caliper? One for each rear wheel, then you'd have a fairly efficient braking system controlled by cable, either by hand or adapted to a foot brake.

[Lignum]

Not sure what I love best, the Billy Cart or the fact you have a workshop in your lounge room. Awesome, well done:2tsup:

[mick59wests]

Yonnee,

I do have one cable and brake from a 3-wheel stroller that was used for their braking system. When I first looked at using this I did not work out how to mount the braking system next to the wheel. Also, I thought if the brake was only on a single wheel, the car would spin when the brake was used but agree that this would be a good system. For my 3-wheeler which I have in mind, this is the braking I plan to use.

Brian,
thanks for those links. I think the steering is going to be my biggest challenge for making better karts.

cheers to both of you (and all previous helpers)

Mick :):)

[Cruzi]

Interesting thoughts on brakes for billy carts, been asked to build one for a child (albeit nowhere near as good as one in this thread), and brakes are what is holding up the build.


The design planned is very basic because as a condition of build (imposed by me) was that the child made it himself as much as possible, I would prepare components and the child could construct it himself, hopefully giving a bit of pride of ownership in it for him.


To further discussion on bike caliper brakes, the anchor point for the brakes was what seemed to be biggest hurdle. A simple cross post to hold the caliper would get it in place but the torsional forces during braking may pull them out of the anchor point?

Anyone have a solution?

[mick59wests]

Cruzi,

I agree that the anchor point for caliper brakes would have to be extremely strong. This is of course much simpler on a single wheel where it can be supported on both sides.

I am thinking the cross beam would need to have a lot of reinforcement (solid bracket comes to mind with a strong anchor point for the bracket).

I'll be interested in what you come up with and how well it works. I would also like to know if you only do it on one wheel whether the cart spins when the brakes are applied hard.

I am still trying to work out a foot controlled one for my next cart but am still thinking of a basic one which rubs on the wheel (or both wheels if I can work it that well).

cheers

Mick

[LiliB]

I'll try that plan again at higher resolution

If it's too small to read, I'll have to get Dave to redraw it in segments.

Cheers
LiliB

[mick59wests]

LiliB (and Dave),

thanks very much! I had seen one other drum brake which I was looking at but this one is much simpler and I think better as well!

cheers

Mick:2tsup::2tsup::2tsup:

[Yonnee]

Love the idea LiliB.

Just a concern with the anchor point for the leather strap...

If you set the mount for the anchor up on a straight pull rather than on the angle??

93167

Less chance of fatigue on the belt at that point.

As you know... kids will be kids, and if you can slam those brakes on for great 'handbrakies'... (should see the rear tyre on my 8yr olds pushbike...)

[Yonnee]

Just had another thought...

If you were to make the kart with two rear wheels from a small 16" kids bike, you could set up a chain driven brake similar to the leather strap idea above.

Hmm... Large rear wheels, small pram front wheels, vintage car style body... Billy Kart Hot Rod here we come!!