New attic ladder

[jackiew]

Bit of advice needed here.

A couple of weeks ago I had a new loft inspection hatch made and an attic ladder fitted ... the existing hatch was in a cupboard over the bath - and required one to be a contortionist to get into it.

I hummed and hahed about doing it myself and decided that there was a better than evens chance I'd stuff it up and even if I didn't it would probably take me about 5 times as long as someone who'd done one before. The company supplying the ladder charged quite a lot for fitting but I figured at least they'd know what they were doing .... ha ha.

The fitter turned up about an hour late, having phoned to say he was unwell but declined my offer to postpone the job until later. He didn't bring everything with him and had to duck out to get timber half way through. By the time he'd finished my morning off of work had stretched to mid afternoon so I did a quick check over of the job and it all seemed ok.

The following weekend in full daylight ( no light up in the attic ) I inspected the work and spotted that one of the cut rafters didn't meet one of the new pieces of wood he'd inserted to make a rectangular frame by about 7mm - both nails were clearly visible in the gap. I wasn't very pleased with this. Had two goes at contacting the company and am still waiting for them to get back to me to discuss it. In the meantime I had another look at the job and discovered that the rectangular framework that the ladder mounts in doesn't actually fit in the rectangular hole he made in my ceiling. He's fitted it flush on two sides ( i.e. pushed hard into the corner of the hole ) .. on the other two sides there is a gap of around 2centimetres - the screws holding the ladder framework to the hole framework are ( of course ) clearly visible - and some of them are actually on the diagonal. Who knows how much thread is actually in the hole framework.

Q1. Am I being unreasonable in believing that this guy has completely bodged the job.

Q2. What should I be asking them to do to rectify the situation. It seems to me that putting packing in the gaps and screwing through the packing is one solution ?

[kenmil]

Jackie,

Another "tradesman quality" job. Sounds like he has messed this up, but the question to ask yourself is - does this represent a structural/safety risk or is it purely cosmetic ? If it can't be seen without climbing inside the roof and there are no rsisks involved, then it probably doesn't matter too much, though I would still ask the company to come out and look at it.

[jackiew]

I think my biggest worry is what happens if, for instance I accidentally ( or some future purchaser of the house ) step on the rafter or the edge of the ladder framework and the nails/screws pull out/bend. Its a 3.25 metre drop to the ground. Agreed the risk is probably low but the company charges a premium for their "experienced" fitters so as far as I'm concerned there shouldn't be a risk at all. The fact that they haven't got back to me despite two attempts to get someone to discuss this is, in my opinion, unacceptable.

I have a letter written which I'm intending to send so they have to sign for receiving it but I wanted to check that i'm not being unreasonable first.

[Bob Willson]

The company supplying the ladder charged quite a lot for fitting

No, you are not being unreasonable. You paid a premium price to have the job done in a workmanlike manner. If, as you say, there are major defects with the job, then the company should make good any defects at their own expense.

Even cosmetically speaking, the job should still be pleasing to the eye.

[echnidna]

You have already been very reasonable towards the company as you have tried to discuss the matter with them twice.

As there is a risk factor the best course for you is to ask the Council Building surveyor for assistance. Council's role is to ensure that building works meet a minimum standard.

[kenmil]

Jackie,
I am still trying to visualise your problem, but it sounds like it is a safety risk, so you are quite entitled to demand it be fixed. As Bob #1 said, you have paid good money for a professional job.

[journeyman Mick]

I can't visualise it but if you have concerns the company should address them. Certainly if fitting a ladder I would pack the frame to the opening to minimise movement, plus I would use batten screws rather than nails.

Mick

[Taffy]

Jackie
Nothing unreasonable about expecting what you have paid for.
I had one of these fitted in Brissy a couple of years ago, I also paid for the company to install it, they arrived on time took an hour to fit and the job is good.
Make the buggers come back and fix it or go to any authority that will listen. The fitter being "off colour" on the day of installation is not your concern, the company has a responsibility to provide suitable expertise and are probably liable if someone should get hurt from shoddy workmanship.

Go get em
Taffy

[jackiew]

thanks guys, I feel a bit more confident of my ground now sending my letter requesting that they finish the job properly.

Reading the original post I realise that I made a complete mess of describing the problem.

I did draw a pretty picture of the problem but my scanner has just chosen to expire :( I found a picture of a loft ladder on the internet which I will attempt to attach!!

As you can see the ladder is attached to a rectangular framework which they supply with the ladder. They then cut a hole in the ceiling and chop out any existing roof timbers ( its not a truss roof ) that cross the hole, and fit extra timbers so that the cut timbers aren't just dangling there in the wind. The supplied wooden framework is meant to fit snuggly into the new hole with timber on all four sides of it which it is screwed in to. I.e. there is a rectangle of timber sitting inside another rectangle of timber and inside that is the hole.

So my issue is that

1. he cut one of the roof timbers shorter than the others so that when he tried to fix a piece of timber across the ends of all the cut timbers it doesn't touch it at all. He could have cut the longer ones to the same length as the short ones but that would have left him with an even bigger hole that the one he actually made. Rather than pack the gap he just banged the nails in as if the two pieces of wood actually met and left the nails visible for about 7mm

2. And the inside wooden framework doesn't touch the outer framework on all 4 sides but only on two of them. On the other two sides there is a 2cm gap between the inner and outer framework with the screws which he used passing through first the inner framework, then the gap ( some of them diagonally ) and then finally screwing into the timber of the outer framework. Which means that there is 2cm+ of screw thread visible in the gap (when viewed from above). And although I havent unscrewed one to check I'm willing to bet they barely penetrate the timber of the outer framework.

You can't see the bloody great gap from underneath because the fitter nailed a wide architrave to the ceiling around the hole - which is why I didn't spot the problem first off.

[journeyman Mick]

Jackie,
from your description it sounds very much like you should be jumping up and down about the job that was done. The outer timber framework (trimmers) is there to preserve the structural integrity of the ceiling as well as supporting the ladder. The trimmers should be a neat fit to the cut members and the ladder frame should be a neat fit to the trimmers. Tell them you want it fixed! If they don't want to do it ask them to give a written confirmation that it is all structurally adequate and that their insurance will cover any damage, injury or loss of income - that should get them moving. I don't know how people can do sub-standard work, especially on structural items. I know I would be losing sleep big time if I left a job like this.

Mick

[MrFixIt]

Originally posted by jackiew
Bit of advice needed here.

The following weekend in full daylight ( no light up in the attic ) I inspected the work and spotted that one of the cut rafters didn't meet one of the new pieces of wood he'd inserted to make a rectangular frame by about 7mm - both nails were clearly visible in the gap. I wasn't very pleased with this.

Hi Jackiew

AFAIK, these attic ladders are designed to go BETWEEN rafters. This way, they do not really compromise on the "structural" strength of the ceiling.

I was fortunate to obtain an attic ladder free. I fitted it into the roof space via the garage ceiling. Unfortunately this meant the ladder was to short (as the garage ceiling is higher). Anyway I made two longer stringers and put in another step. In other respects the ladder was almost a slip fit between the rafters. I added a noggin to which the top of the ladder fitted, and cut out a small recess in the rafter either side, to accept the pivot mechanism. The ladder works great!

I would recommend that you contact the supplier and have it checked out and any problems recified at no charge to yourself.

Kind regards

Peter

[jackiew]

you're right Peter, ideally the ladder would go between the rafters - although with the 430mm spacing in my roof it wouldn't have been possible even if the layout of the rooms in the house would have given me enough space to fit it. Unfortunately with a 3.25 m ceiling height the only ladders I could find were the sort that are hinged in two places and have to be unfolded ( which seems to take heaps of room ). I would much have preferred the type which are more like a normal extension ladder and pull down from the roof space in sections.

I rang the company again this morning before sending my letter and actually got someone who wasn't a receptionist. They are coming out tomorrow to inspect it ( i.e. not sending a tradesman who can actually do anything but their sales guy ). I anticipate a bit of an argument as I was told over the phone that "it doesn't sound like a problem". Reinforced with mick's info I shall hold my ground.

[duckman]

Originally posted by MrFixIt
AFAIK, these attic ladders are designed to go BETWEEN rafters. This way, they do not really compromise on the "structural" strength of the ceiling.

That's great if you're able to install the ladder parallel to the ceiling joists, but many of us cannot.

Cutting the joists and then trimming the opening thus created is not normally a big deal as its usual to install attic ladders in small rooms or hallways so the cj's aren't spanning a great distance.

Cya,

[duckman]

Originally posted by jackiew
Bit of advice needed here.

I inspected the work and spotted that one of the cut rafters didn't meet one of the new pieces of wood he'd inserted to make a rectangular frame by about 7mm - both nails were clearly visible in the gap.

Shoddy work, but unless the ceiling joists are spanning a large distance unlikely to cause a problem for you.


He's fitted it flush on two sides ( i.e. pushed hard into the corner of the hole ) .. on the other two sides there is a gap of around 2centimetres

The gap should have been packed, preferably with ply.


Q1. Am I being unreasonable in believing that this guy has completely bodged the job.

I wouldn't say from your description that he has completely botched the job, just some of it. :-)


Q2. What should I be asking them to do to rectify the situation. It seems to me that putting packing in the gaps and screwing through the packing is one solution ?

Correct. I bought an attic ladder from Kimberly Products, Moorabbin, Vic back in January this year, and installed it myself. (I'm a chippy BTW) If that's where your's came from the following might be of some help.

The installation instructions that came with it, stated clearly that any gap between the ladder frame and the opening should be packed. They do however suggest that nails can be used to the fix the ladder's frame to the ceiling opening, but there is no way I could bring myself to do that. I used batten screws and am very happy I did.

If your ladder is from the same importer you might like to go to their website and download the installation instructions. They are in Acrobat format.

A product brochure is also there, but what you want is the installation instructions. At least by reading what should have been done and comparing that with what was done, you can arm yourself with knowledge and go into the negotiations prepared.

Their website is http://www.kimprod.com.au/ladders.htm

Hope this helps,

:)

[jackiew]

different company Duckman but wouldn't surprise me if it was the same ladder rebadged, cheers for the info about the instructions I shall download them for my homework before I do battle.

[Toymaker Len]

Go straight to "Fair Trading" they will inspect the work, liase? with the retailer/installer and order any necessary rectification. Don't negotiate or hesitate. We've had years of renovating and extending including fitting attic stairs and the one thing I am certain of is that anybody can turn out to be a cowboy and the sooner you hit them with the heavies the better off you are going to be.

[bob w]

I personally would leave the heavies ( Fair Trading ) until you have given the company a chance to inspect and rectify the problem. The rep is coming to have a look and hopefully he will get things done, and very likely the subcontractor will get his marching orders. I would also demand a copy of the installers contractors licence as the suppliers often use their own licence and have cheaper unqualified labourers carry out the work.
By that I mean the person that actually installed the ladder may not be qualified in any area of the building trade. (It looked confusing) If this turns out to be the case then Fair Trading may be an option.
Good Luck

Bob

[jackiew]

well I've had the job inspected.

Been left in no doubt of the fact that I'm not a builder, have no carpentry qualifications, that I'm not a suitable person to challenge the work of a carpenter of umpty umph years experience, a builder of umpty umph plus years experience ( whose father also has umpty umph years plus experience ) and I probably don't know my **** from my elbow but ... in the interests of good customer service .. they will send the fitter out again to put packing in.

During our discussions I suggested that he stand by his opinion that the installation was good in writing on the company headed notepaper ( as suggested by someone on the forum ). For some reason this idea wasn't leapt upon as a way out of the problem without them doing any work.

I'm not looking forward to dealing with the fitter when he comes out but I don't suppose having someone think I'm an unreasonable old bag will kill me. It hasn't so far anyway :)

[Sir Stinkalot]

If there isn't a problem why would they bother to send somebody out in the interests of good customer service???? I would have thought that the person that you had today was the "good customer service" guy and the next guy they send is the mistake fixer. If the job was done correctly in the first place the rep should have reinforced that to you and there would be no need for a fix. It still sounds a little dodgy to me.

Stinky.

[Driver]

Jackie

You need to let these people know that if they don't do a good job for you they will upset about 200 dedicated woodworkers, all mates of yours.

If they don't want to have to answer to a mob of middle-aged blokes waving their weapons of choice, from hand tools to the type that plug in to the national grid, they should just fix your ladder and retire from the scene.

We're slow to anger but awesome in our wrath!

:D :D :D :D :D :D

Col

[silentC]

mob of middle-aged blokes

Hey, go easy Col, some of us are still spring chickens you know :)

[kenmil]

Originally posted by Driver


If they don't want to have to answer to a mob of middle-aged blokes waving their weapons of choice, from hand tools to the type that plug in to the national grid, they should just fix your ladder and retire from the scene.


Col

Probably should note here that those waving hand tools are the foot soldiers (cannon fodder) and those using power tools are equivalent to the air cavalry (elite).
Darn.....I hope I haven't started all that hand tools/power tools thing again.:D

[Bob Willson]

JackieW
I don't suppose having someone think I'm an unreasonable old bag will kill me

Who said that you are unreasonable? :D

[Driver]

Originally posted by silentC
Hey, go easy Col, some of us are still spring chickens you know :)

Darren, mate, is that a Foghorn Leghorn type chicken or a Tweety Bird?

Col

[silentC]

Boy, ah say boy... Look at me when I'm talking to yah son.

Ken, I'd rather have a very sharp chisel in my hand than have to worry about when my extension cord was going to run out ;)

[journeyman Mick]

Ken, Darren,
weapon of choice: chainsaw!:D powered, portable and very high scare factor. A mate of mine once held off a large group of enraged alcoholic park people with a chainsaw after he took away their shade with it.

Mick

[silentC]

And you can make furniture with one too ;)

[kenmil]

Originally posted by journeyman Mick
large group of enraged alcoholic park people

Hmmm...Queensland....... alcoholic.............park people. Ithink I know exactly who you mean. Love the description though.;)

[journeyman Mick]

Ken,
that's how the local media refers to them as they set up camp in the parks. We do have very nice public parks in Cairns but having large groups of people camping in them, littering, cooking and spreading their clothes out to dry tends to make tham a tad untidy.

Mick

[Driver]

Jackie

Give us an update. Have you get 'em sorted out yet?

That mob we talked about (including Foghorn and the other callow youths) are straining at the leash.

Col

[jackiew]

the fitter is meant to call me ... i'm still waiting ... sigh.... it shouldn't be this difficult.

what they don't know is that I have a policy of actively recommending against businesses which don't perform... and I've got a very long memory. when I say actively recommending against I mean it .... I will butt into private conversations on the train where the appropriate "trigger" word has been mentioned and say "do not use company x", I will start conversations at barbecues purposely to tell people not to use company x. There is a particular prefabricated garage company in the UK that I must have made 2000+ personal recommendations against using . I have to have lost them at least one customer ... and as their garages are not cheap I will have cost them more than it would have cost them to fix the problem.

I also have a policy of actively recommending for businesses, tradesmen that I have good experiences with.

I really don't understand why businesses don't get to grips with the idea that you can stuff up and still end up with a happy customer who will recommend you ... but only if you are prepared to acknowledge there is a problem and do something about it.

Add the short cuts in the installation to the fact that the ladder doesn't face the way I wanted it to ( the sales guy said there was room for it and the fitter said there wasn't ) and it just barely touches the carpet ( and the salesman said there wouldn't be a problem if I took up the carpet at a later date and polished the boards ... ) they've got a customer who really isn't a happy rabbit. :mad:

[echnidna]

Jackie,
print out your last post and send it to the firm.

maybe they will get the message

[ndru]

...it just barely touches the carpet ( and the salesman said there wouldn't be a problem if I took up the carpet at a later date and polished the boards)

My understanding is that the feet of the ladder must be flush with the surface of the floor all the time or else the bottom section will not be secure because the hinges are not in their fully locked position. Looks like you can add "misrepresentation" and "reckless disregard for personal safety" to your list of grievances.

Any chance of mentioning the company's name here on the forum?


the fitter is meant to call me

My experience with fitters is that they can barely get past grunts and clicks as a means of communication. You'll need to allow some time for them to realise that the telephone handpiece can be used for so much more than just hunting game and mashing yams...

PS. To all the fitters out there - that was a joke, you can laugh now :D :p :) :(

[soapbox /ON] Seriously, though, is it any wonder why more and more people are DIY'ing when stories like this keep cropping up? [soapbox /OFF]

[bob w]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jackiew
[B]

I really don't understand why businesses don't get to grips with the idea that you can stuff up and still end up with a happy customer who will recommend you ... but only if you are prepared to acknowledge there is a problem and do something about it.

Jackie this is called honesty and integrity and unfortunately too few companies display either of these attributes. Did you find out if the actual installer was licenced or was he using the companies qualifications?
I know I originally recommended against it but you may have to involve fair trading if you get no satisfaction. Some tradies (and not just the building ones) seem to treat females and young people like idiots and dismiss their concerns and questions with absolute disdain. go get 'em kid!
Bob:mad:

[journeyman Mick]

Jackie,
Am I right in assuming that there are no licensing requirements for this work in Victoria? In Qld all building work must be carried out by appropriately licensed contractors and while I reckon that all the paperwork that they require is a royal pain in the @rse I can see that in cases like yours they are a neccesity (just a pity that a few bad eggs make life hard for the rest of us). If there is a licensing authority then you need to get in touch with them and tell them of your problems.

Mick

[Bob Willson]

Jackie, Jackie, are you there Jackie?

What was the final outcome of this Jackie? Did they fix it all up to your satisfaction or did you have to do something nasty to them?

[jackiew]

fitter eventually came out.

Was expecting (in my naievty (sp) ) him to remove the hatch, fit packing,refit hatch.

What he actually did was to hammer pieces of wood into the worst of the gaps.

Had the choice of then going through the process of complaining again or sorting it out myself. Wimped out :o.

Have had a colleague ask me what I thought of the company as they were planning to get a new loft ladder. Needless to say the company concerned didn't get my recommendation.

I am currently doing a timber framing course at the local tafe ( keeps me off of the streets :) ). I am going to seek advice from the instructors about the best way to rectify the job.

[Marc]

Jackie, I'm sorry about your tradesman trouble, I am a chronic renovator and deal with trades on a regular basis and fire them on a just as regular basis. Unfortunatley trademanship pride is somehow a thing of the past.

Unless you are prepaired to take the company up through the ACCC, the local building authority or the council, I would be looking for my own remedy.
One question perhaps Mick can answer better than me since I'm not sure I can "see" the problem: can additional trimmers be added to the first, this time cut at appropriate lenght and screwed to the intial trimmer and the ceiling joists as a reinforcement?

It may be your 2 bob's solution.

Afterwards you are welcome to build a vodoo doll and use your nailgun on it. I suggest 16 gage 60mm bradders on the upper and lower limbs.

Nee only kidding, forgive and forget ... but only if you can fix it easy :p

[jackiew]

ta marc, think you are right about the extra trimmers for one bit of the problem.

I'm sure there are lots of tradesmen out there who do a fantastic job and others who just do the bare minimum they can get away with ... its the same in every industry including the industry that I work in ... the software industry!!!

[Barry_White]

One of the biggest problems with a lot of these companys that they use sub contractors as all the good carpenters are usually working for themselves so they put an ad in the paper calling for subcontractors and they get people who aren't tradesmen but have a few tools and they show them how to install their product over about a week and then send them out on their own but they have never had the benefits or the diciplines that a tradesman gets through an apprenticeship.

The biggest problem today is there are no big company's putting on apprentices, they just employ subcontract carpenters and other tradesmen and because they are flat out making money they don't have the time or the inclination to train apprentices. That is why there is a shortage of tradesmen especially in these times of a building boom and you have to wait 12 months to get a house built.

[jackiew]

on the bricklaying course I did the instructor said that some really unlucky apprentices never really got any practical experience outside the tafe part of their course ... they mostly only got to do labouring ... the guys they were apprenticed too being too busy to spend any time with them.

[SteveI]

Jackie

Sounds familiar - I know a plumber who did his entire apprenticeship doing roofs - so he was very experienced in that area, but knew bugger-all about doing sewerage... yet had his ticket!

...and Barry is right - why do we always go through boom and bust with the trades - just maybe the new technical colleges might help.

[bitingmidge]

on the bricklaying course I did the instructor said that some really unlucky apprentices never really got any practical experience outside the tafe part of their course ... they mostly only got to do labouring ... the guys they were apprenticed too being too busy to spend any time with them.

My nephew was apprenticed to his father, and could lay bricks like there was no tomorrow by the time he was 15 and legally able to start work. When the tafe course 6 week blocks used to come round he loved it. He'd get the steps/ BBQ/ fireplace done in the first couple of hours of the first morning, and charge the other blokes who hadn't seen a brick before $20.00 an hour to do theirs as well..... good for him, but not so flash for the state of the nations future bricklayers!

:D
P

[capedcrusader]

[QUOTE=Barry_White]One of the biggest problems with a lot of these companys that they use sub contractors as all the good carpenters are usually working for themselves so they put an ad in the paper calling for subcontractors and they get people who aren't tradesmen but have a few tools and they show them how to install their product over about a week and then send them out on their own but they have never had the benefits or the diciplines that a tradesman gets through an apprenticeship.
QUOTE]

I think the main problem is probably with the fat @rsed salesman who probably only pays the subcontractor half of what the the work is actually worth which would tend to encourage cost effective dodgyness and also the way he comes around to try to "sell" you the idea that you wouldnt know what you are talking about (because you are a woman no doubt). It seems to be the predominant business "model" that every one running a business seems to aspire too these days.