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bellyup
20th December 2008, 03:07 PM
Hi Guys,
In my ignorance, I have happily going around to all manner of places out here (NSW outback) in the bush gathering timber, chopping burls and lopping trees.
These excursions are by no means on a commercial scale but a co-worker has informed my that what I am doing could be illegal. Would anyone know what the story is?
Thanks for your help,

weisyboy
20th December 2008, 03:46 PM
you defiantly should not be chopping burls and branches of living trees.

hughie
20th December 2008, 05:16 PM
I reckon out at Broken Hill this would not be a major problem . But I guess theres a law for that as with everything else around here..

I know a few years back the the national parks and wildlfie service built a new track or fire egress track not sure which. Anway they had to knock over couple of redgums of a decent size. Could not get em they had to be left where they fell, go figure.

Vernonv
20th December 2008, 05:58 PM
Who owns the land from which you obtain the timber and burls?
If it's private property and you have permission, then I doubt there would be a problem. I think you may have a problem if it's public/crown land.

Burnsy
20th December 2008, 08:15 PM
Not sure of the NSW law but here is the WA version to give you some idea of what you may be up against. Any native WA flora that is taken for a commercial purpose from private land must be covered by a permit. Note that the term commercial is very loose and it includes anything made from the timber that foreseeably could one day be sold. So unless you take from private land, use it yourself and then ensure it is never ever sold on once you or someone else you give it to has finished with it then you need a permit.

If it is on crown land then you also need permits from the Forest Products Commission and may also need the same permit as above from the Dept of Environment.

If it is a non endemic species like say an eastern states tree that you are taking then no-one cares.

Cheers,
Mike

bellyup
21st December 2008, 09:27 AM
Thanks Guys,
Maybe I need to speak with the pencil pushers and get some sort of definitive answer, if I do I'll let you know.
Hughie, I don't get it, we can clear fell huge tracks of land with enormous chains stretched between bulldozers and pile it up and burn it or we can trash Tasmanian old-growth forests for wood chips but we can't use redgum knocked over by bulldozers (maybe the authorities think that the D9 Caterpillar is a part of Australian landscape and this is nature in action?):no:
Anyway, if anyone knows the what goes on then please post your thoughts,
Bruce.

BobL
21st December 2008, 10:19 AM
Not sure of the NSW law but here is the WA version to give you some idea of what you may be up against. Any native WA flora that is taken for a commercial purpose from private land must be covered by a permit. Note that the term commercial is very loose and it includes anything made from the timber that foreseeably could one day be sold. So unless you take from private land, use it yourself and then ensure it is never ever sold on once you or someone else you give it to has finished with it then you need a permit.

Mike, I spoke to Jeff at the yard about this and he says he does not know of any tree lopper who removes trees from non-crown land that does this. It would be interesting to know the penalties compared to the cost and inconvenience of getting the permits.

Ron Dunn
21st December 2008, 10:39 AM
If you DON'T comply with all the necessary rules, regulations, etc., you'll kill the hobby of small timber milling.

At the moment I think you're flying under the radar. Get anyone off-side - especially a few green nutters - and you'll find yourselves completely banned.

Better to put up with some "cost and inconvenience" than destroy it for everyone.

Groggy
21st December 2008, 11:04 AM
Find out what the law is with a simple phone call or email. If you don't, no matter what you personally think is a fair thing, the magistrate will just yawn and fine you. You may also have any equipment with you confiscated, depending on where you are and what you are doing.

It pays to find out for sure, and that means for each area you go into, as rules vary. I can tell you that if you so much as pick up a stick near Longforest Rd in Bacchus Marsh to throw for your dog you will be lucky to get off with a life sentence. That place is nutter central.

Andy Mac
21st December 2008, 11:22 AM
In Qld you can get a firewood collection licence, which allows you to cut fallen timber from state forests. I think road reserves are a different matter, collecting there is frowned upon.

Woodwould
21st December 2008, 11:28 AM
You may also have any equipment with you confiscated...

I'm aware of just such an incident up at Dargo in the Victorian High Plains about twelve or thirteen years ago. One recurring hooligan cut one branch or burl too many and the authorities were waiting for him. They confiscated his 4WD, trailer, chainsaws and other equipment. :2tsup:

I was buying timber in the area at the time and there had been a rash of vandals coming in and helping themselves, so some of the local landowners were taking quite drastic steps to protect their property. As a result, I paid through the nose for the timber I wanted and was even accused at one point of having been one of the vandals.

hughie
21st December 2008, 10:34 PM
Hughie, I don't get it, we can clear fell huge tracks of land with enormous chains stretched between bulldozers and pile it up and burn it or we can trash Tasmanian old-growth forests for wood chips but we can't use redgum knocked over by bulldozers (maybe the authorities think that the D9 Caterpillar is a part of Australian landscape and this is nature in action?)

political correctness dictates a lot of BS.

If you want to collect bush rock you need a permit, why? apparently so as to protect the insects, lizards etc who maybe harmed be indescriminately in the taking of bush rocks. The same folks who got the under growth burn off stopped afew years ago which resulted in Sydney being ringed but 100+ bush fires.If a snake bites you, you can not defend your self in a way that might harm the snake.

Join the club I do not understand either, its just PC BS

Ron Dunn
21st December 2008, 10:49 PM
hughie, the problem isn't one person taking one rock. The problem is that person takes a rock, then another person takes a rock, then a whole lot of other people think it must be OK to take rocks and help themselves, and then the greedy ones take trailer-loads of rocks, and eventually there are no rocks left.

Burnsy
21st December 2008, 11:06 PM
Mike, I spoke to Jeff at the yard about this and he says he does not know of any tree lopper who removes trees from non-crown land that does this. It would be interesting to know the penalties compared to the cost and inconvenience of getting the permits.

Yep, that sounds right, when I asked the officer in charge of licencing how many people in Perth were obtaining these licences to use native urban trees for timber production she told me none - I laughed. She replied that maybe the wildlife officers need to look into into it. No idea what the fines are.

masoth
21st December 2008, 11:48 PM
In Victoria it's a wise move to check with your local council before cutting down any tree on your property - the council may have it listed a "a significent tree", or it may be listed after you make enquiries.
*&**%$# bureaucrats. It's also naughty to build a swing, or a tree-house for your kids in a tree on your property without checking.

soth:((

robutacion
22nd December 2008, 12:50 AM
Hi everyone,

Oh, could I go on and on, giving examples of absolutely "ridiculous" situations I'm/was aware/involved, directly/indirectly, out of this same issue...!:doh::no:.

It is obvious that, if you are in someone else's property, without permission, you are "trespassing", and if you are so, and taking/cutting anything that is there, then you are trespassing and stealing, and "god" forgive if you are court (mainly by, complain), in that situation cutting and or removing total or part of a live tree...!:oo:, and if all this happen is a national park or reserve, them you are in serious deep troubles...!

In most circumstances the authorities, councils, etc, are not looking for people taking small quantities of timber, nor they like to act if they see it, in most cases duo to the paper work and red tape involved into have someone charged but, if they are called, and worth, "repeatedly" called to act upon a complain made by some of those green fanatics, the chances are, you are done good and proper!:((

I'm sorry, if some of you thing that I use strong words, believe me, they are nothing compared with being actually deeply involved, the one way or the other, if you know what I mean...!:rolleyes:

I'm not going to name names and or locations, but I can show you a couple of pics from the part removal (half trunk), only, of a naturally falled mature gum (6 years prior), on a public dirt track accessing different private properties, that was "disputed". This tree has been cut (moved away from the middle to the side of the road) apparently, was one of those logs that the natural wildlife couldn't live without...!:no::~.

If I would give a word of advice to anyone, would be, be careful, be sure, be smart, it ain't worth the trouble, seriously...!

Cheers
RBTCO

Skew ChiDAMN!!
22nd December 2008, 01:13 AM
In some National Parks in Vic, the coop system is alive and well.

This is where people (usually small firewood collectors) pay the guvmint for the privilege of collecting deadfalls and permissible logs from an allotment in the park.

Anybody else who happens to just wander by and decides to collect some firewood is, in effect, stealing from the coop owners. I've seen some nasty feuds between operators of neighbouring coops, too. (Sometimes I really miss small, bush towns. :D)

Grumpy John
22nd December 2008, 06:41 AM
hughie, the problem isn't one person taking one rock. The problem is that person takes a rock, then another person takes a rock, then a whole lot of other people think it must be OK to take rocks and help themselves, and then the greedy ones take trailer-loads of rocks, and eventually there are no rocks left.

The voice of reason.
I'm in no way saying I agree with some of the, what seem to be arbitrary laws of some local councils and government departments, but the stupidity, greed and ignorance of generations before us are the reasons we have these ridiculous rules and regulations.

Rum Pig
22nd December 2008, 09:36 AM
I think you will find the same laws every were in Australia if you remove, interfere or harm/kill any native wildlife or fauna (including rock, dirt etc.) you are in deep poo. Technically up hear it is even illegal to take a photo of any native wildlife because you are interfering with its natural life.
Having said that up here the authorities (Parks and wildlife) are very easy to get along with and will give you permits if you can show reasonable cause for what ever it is that you are doing. A friend of mine collects timber to make didgeridoos there is no charge to him but he has to tell them where he is collecting the timber and the species he is collecting and how much. I do believe we are lucky up here with our easy going authorities and it can be a lot harder down south but sometimes it is worth while talking to them it maybe just a case of filling out a form.
I understand the need to put a flat ban on this sort of activity to protect our wildlife because as Ron Dunn said it is not the individual but the collective that do the damage.If the authorities knock you back when you ask for permission ask why there maybe a very good reason i.e the species that you wish to knock down maybe endangered or something.
I have found enough timber around the place not to worry about native bush land. our arborist pay something like $400 dollars a truck load to dump there timber so they are normally happy to give it to you.
Vern I hope you can get along with your authorities if not I guess my best advices is,
It is only illegal if you get caught:D

44Ronin
22nd December 2008, 01:40 PM
I think you will find the same laws every were in Australia if you remove, interfere or harm/kill any native wildlife or fauna (including rock, dirt etc.) you are in deep poo.

On this basis the government should arrest itself.

Ed Reiss
22nd December 2008, 01:55 PM
Interesting the limitations that are placed on you guys by the government regarding where, when, and how standing and fallen wood can be procured. It's really been an eye opener because my perception was that there is so much open land in OZ that it wouldn't be an issue to pick up fallen stuff or to take down a diseased/dead tree ...apparently it is a big deal!:C ...might have to re-think about moving to Australia!!!:doh:

Here in Jersey it seems that there is no end to finding wood (already cut up) just by riding around the neighborhoods on trash collection day...there is always some Maple, Oak Walnut, or even Osage Orange that has been put out curbside for pick-up. No body hassles you either ...whats out at the curb is legally discarded goods up for grabs. Another great source for wood is the township recycling center ...they always have piles of wood there.

orraloon
22nd December 2008, 02:07 PM
I used to get a permit to cut firewood from the NSW forestery. Last time was about 4 years ago and it cost about $25 to cut 2 ute loads. You are given a map of the state forest area you can cut in. You can cut anything that is on the ground. I dont have a wood fire any more but I will take out a permit this year and fill the ute with turning wood. Do a search of government offices in your local area.
Regards
John

Grumpy John
22nd December 2008, 02:23 PM
Ed, follow the link to get an idea of open land http://www.wrightsair.com.au/anna.htm 34,000 sq kilometers (6 milion acres) carrying 11,000 head of cattle. The largest American cattle station (ranch) is 3,000 sq. kms.

Burnsy
22nd December 2008, 03:51 PM
I used to get a permit to cut firewood from the NSW forestery. Last time was about 4 years ago and it cost about $25 to cut 2 ute loads. You are given a map of the state forest area you can cut in. You can cut anything that is on the ground. I dont have a wood fire any more but I will take out a permit this year and fill the ute with turning wood. Do a search of government offices in your local area.
Regards
John

These permits are available in WA as well, bit more than that though for one load. Get this though, it is for taking wood to burn for personal use and you may not slab the timber for using - you can only burn it!!

bellyup
22nd December 2008, 04:45 PM
I looked up our local NSW National Parks and Wildlife (they incorporate the Dept. of Environment and Climate Change) office here in town to enquire about timber gathering as a starting point, all they could say was "you can't in a national park, go see the Dept. of Primary Industries"
Ok, I can do that. Found the DPI and went to Lands Dept and asked about regulations/permits for timber gathering, they were unaware of said permit and suggested I see the Dept. of Agriculture, Ok, I found the Dept of Ag.but all people were on leave who might know -" why don't you see the Minerals Dept. downstairs?" (Minerals dept ? what the.....)
Minerals suggested I wait while they did a ringaround. I ended up talking to a pleasant lady in the Forestry Dept in Dubbo who informed me that there are no specific permits for "craft timber gathering", I could however apply for a professional permit once I had done the requisite paperwork and safety statements and then fill in a monthly chart stating how much of what, from where etc.(no thanks)
The final solution was to get a noncomercial permit called a "30i" to gather "firewood" ($25 per tonne fee) on Crown land
but i had to nominate the area (anyone who knows Broken Hill would know it can be a long drive between trees - they are where you find them) I explained the problem and she was happy to work with that by "stretching" the boundary - but this permit only lasts for a specific time - say a weekend/ week/ month, but again she was happy to 'stretch" that to 3 months, so, ok I can get legal now, the permit can be issued via the internet.
Maybe we need to request that they formulate permits that would suit "craft timber" collection, it would certainly simplify the process!!!
A couple of points to note:
It only works on Crown land.
Highway corridors are owned by the RTA and they issue massive fines if caught.
Other road corridors are owned by local councils and seperate permits req. for that.
Well, I hope that helps.
Regards,
Bruce.

masoth
22nd December 2008, 06:37 PM
"might have to re-think about moving to Australia!!!:doh:"

Ed, I wouldn't let small things like this deter you - as someone else said, it's only illegal when you get caught. I drove in front of an "official" vehicle for 20 miles with an open trailer full of freshly cut wood. Even a blind 'townie' would have seen the wood.
Nah!! Too hot to flash lights and pull me over.

soth

Skew ChiDAMN!!
22nd December 2008, 07:07 PM
Ah! But then the onus is upon them to prove that you didn't obtain it legally. Too much paperwork!

However, if you'd pulled out of a National park in front of 'em, with the trailer full of logs... :rolleyes:

masoth
22nd December 2008, 07:24 PM
True Shew, but I was in an area of freehold and Western Lands Commission leased land :?

soth

Ooops, "Skew" sorry

thefixer
22nd December 2008, 08:52 PM
Ed, follow the link to get an idea of open land http://www.wrightsair.com.au/anna.htm 34,000 sq kilometers (6 milion acres) carrying 11,000 head of cattle. The largest American cattle station (ranch) is 3,000 sq. kms.


Surely there must be one in Texas bigger than that. Everybody knows that everything is bigger in Texas:D:D

Cheers
Shorty

masoth
22nd December 2008, 09:03 PM
During a past life I was always on the lookout for a bragging Texan so I could tell (loudly, in public) that Australia had a sheep/cattle station bigger than the State of Texas.

soth

thefixer
22nd December 2008, 09:11 PM
During a past life I was always on the lookout for a bragging Texan so I could tell (loudly, in public) that Australia had a sheep/cattle station bigger than the State of Texas.

soth


I only ever met one Texan. Turned to be a pretty good bloke once we knocked the yank out of him and made him an honorary skippy:D

Cheers
Shorty

Ed Reiss
23rd December 2008, 01:02 AM
Ed, follow the link to get an idea of open land http://www.wrightsair.com.au/anna.htm 34,000 sq kilometers (6 milion acres) carrying 11,000 head of cattle. The largest American cattle station (ranch) is 3,000 sq. kms.

Amazing!!! Must take some very tough and exceptional folks to live and work out there. I would imagine that it's probably more than just a few kilometers to the nearest town:doh:

masoth
23rd December 2008, 01:14 AM
Some places can see you drive all day to get to your neighbour, and there are no towns for days apart. Most of the population live on the East coast in spralwing cities/towns.
Actually, If the city folk moved to the country and the farmers moved to the coast, food production would increase many times - the coastal fringe also has better soils.

soth

Skew ChiDAMN!!
23rd December 2008, 01:24 AM
Amazing!!! Must take some very tough and exceptional folks to live and work out there. I would imagine that it's probably more than just a few kilometers to the nearest town:doh:

Yeah, there's no "just running down to the supermarket for milk & bread" out there! :D

hughie
23rd December 2008, 03:47 PM
Must take some very tough and exceptional folks to live and work out there. I would imagine that it's probably more than just a few kilometers to the nearest town:doh:[/quote]

Yup, my brothers front gate is 150 miles away from his front door. He reckons it discourages the door to door salesman. But its hell on mail deliveries :U

The Bleeder
23rd December 2008, 04:07 PM
Yup, my brothers front gate is 150 miles away from his front door. He reckons it discourages the door to door salesman. But its hell on mail deliveries :U[/quote]

But what about home delivery?

bellyup
23rd December 2008, 05:02 PM
I don't suppose he gets too many visits from blokes in white shirts and ties riding pushbikes on a Saturday morning?

hughie
23rd December 2008, 09:27 PM
But what about home delivery?

dont think they have heard of it. :U


I don't suppose he gets too many visits from blokes in white shirts and ties riding pushbikes on a Saturday morning?


I gather to some extent "rule 303" still applies. :U

woodwork wally
23rd December 2008, 10:14 PM
I gather to some extent "rule 303" still applies. :U[/quote]

Just wondering if that is the one containing section 12 G.

paragraph 44/40 and line 357

If it is it is pretty general acros oz. espescially if "the sign is on the gate mate"


ah well a sign that some things havn't changed cos they've been around a while When the warning bang goes off and he says "Thats illegal" My old man used to say "ill eagle can't see no sick birds Now git running afor you feel the next one " cheers for now WW.Wally

robutacion
24th December 2008, 02:41 AM
Hi everyone,

I find that irregardless of location (state), people tent to accept and help out those that take the time in introducing themselves at the propriety owners face. Not all my contacts were successful and/or pleasant ones, as there are lots of farmers outer there that have the gut full of being taken advantage of. Nevertheless, they tent to appreciate the initiative shown of those that show some courage and determination to go in and ask. I have said this many times before, is a lot of people out there more than willing to give you as much timber as you need. The second stage of the process is that they talk to others that also need some timber removed. If you do a clean job and show that you know what you're doing, in no time you spend a lot more time cutting and gathering timbers that you ever drammed of. You also should remember that is a lot of people in our society in recent years that have all this issue of timber preservation all very wrong, and most of them because they understand or care, but for the financial incentives and rewards they are offered to stand up and make noise! all for the wrong reasons:no:.
Once I was taken to Court, because I started salvaging old hollow logs for sale on eBay and animal stores, in an area that had been approved for house development. The signs were erected all around advising people that works were commencing soon. I knew the place well and I decided to collect as much wood as I could before the bulldozers would rip the ground upside down from 2 feet under. I was accused of taken away the "houses and hiding places" from the native small creatures, creating an "unbalance" on the local small creatures population. While this was on, I sold most of these hollow logs that I've cut and cleaned, to people all over Australia, for all sorts of small animals kept in captivity (legal animals), that normally would live or rely on one of these type logs for survival (nesting, sleeping, hiding, etc.). The logs were sold at $10 each plus freight, but before this logs were sent, they were fumigated to kill and remove any wanted bugs, etc.. The logs were then filled up with packed news paper inside the hollow part for strength while in transportation, then rapped with bubble rap, inserted in a medium size plastic black bag and finally, put inside of a cardboard box, packed tight again with news paper, closed and sealed with packaging tape, before they would be taken to the Post Office. In Court, I was asked why I was going through all that trouble with those hollow logs, when the sale price wasn't enough to cover my expenses? My answer was, they were going to be destroyed by the machines, with the creatures still in then, by removing those logs I "forced" those creatures to go elsewhere, where some of those logs were available to them (creatures) outside the marked area for house development, all around. There were enough of those logs all around so the sale was a way to make these special natural logs available to lots of people out there that never had the opportunity to acquire such product from the animal stores, as they don't normally supply such thing.

When the judge ask this "mad women", "why did she have me charged with destruction of natural animal habitat?" she said that, I had no right to remove the creatures homes/shelter! The second question from the judge to her was, " what do you think those creatures, that you wanted so much to protect would do, when those bulldozers would rip and run over everything, including those logs were they would hide or look for protection in the presence of those machine noises? she answered, oh... they would just run away from the machines!:o:no:

Yeah, exactly... that was what the judge told her and case dismissed...!:rolleyes::D

Sorry, I just had to give this example of people that got it all wrong, just because they don't stop to think but instead, get brain washed by sophisticated green poisonous snakes!

Cheers
RBTCO