David Payne TK1 build [Archive]

TK1

21st December 2008, 09:14 PM

Hi,

After much stuffing about, other priorities and epoxy, I've finally finished building a TK1 - racing touring class kayak - designed by David Payne. Heres some photos.

This is only my second kayak build. It's hard-chined 3mm marine ply sides and bottom, with 1.5mm marine ply deck. Unlike S&G ones, it's built on chines and a keel piece. These I made out of Paulownia. Great to work with, and lightweight so I'll be using it again.

Build went well, and mistakes being mine and not David's. Plans were excellent and easy to follow. I wimped out and bought a rudder and footbar/tiller, and used an old fiberglass seat. Next time around I'll build my own.

Maiden voyage is this Wednesday. It's only had one coat of varnish but more will follow. I'm keen to make another one, but a bit narrower at the chine and lower volume. May do a strip version and round over the form corners. Still thinking about this while I build a strip K1 based on David's plans also.

Shots below show:

1. First panel going on the forms. I built a strongback using MDF in a box beam on 2 sawhorses. Moulds are from MDF traced from the plans. Using lots of clamps to hold panel to the keel & chine. Other panels on bench to left. Also clogging up the workspace are f/glass TK1 and TK2 with CLC C17 above.

2. Stern with first panel clamped on. Pic shows forms - a couple have permanent bulkheads in 3mm ply attached.

3. Second bottom panel going on. This got harder as I couldn't clamp the keel so had to tape it. I wanted to avoid nails/screws to keep weight down but could have removed them later :rolleyes:

Next installment below...

Regards,
Darren

TK1

21st December 2008, 09:23 PM

Here's the next installments. (note I've now decided to post all pics once built, otherwise it's obvious how long this takes me...larger boats are a bit scary in terms of build time for me at present!)

Pics show:

1. Side panel going on. Again, more tape. I ended up using small bronze nails for the side-bottom joint but they still pulled out a bit. Use screws on the other side, and removed when dry. Much better but left visible holes. Panels were cut oversize and trimmed when dry.

2. When the hull was done and glassed with 120gsm glass and Bote Cote, it was flipped and interior cleaned up. Shot is during clean-up of excess epoxy and attaching deck stringers. Plans don't call for this but I doubted the 1.5mm ply's ability to hold the deck curve. Also adds a bit of strength for carrying by cockpit. Commercial footbrace/tiller plate in place.

Nearly done...

TK1

21st December 2008, 09:35 PM

These pics show the boat after one coat of varnish. I got lazy and didn't take any pics of the deck going on, but it was basically taped down until dry. Cockpit area was glassed in 120gsm for abrasion resistance and deck done in 60gsm to reduce weight.

Rudder is Rapid Flow from NN, excellent rudders if anyone needs one, attached through the hull with 1.6mm s/steel cable.

Seat is bolted to a central support - I can move it if required, but footplate will mainly be used to adjust fit.

I made a simple cockpit surround, square at the back which gives it a nice retro feel. Future ones though I'll have to make more effort and do oval one so a prayskirt fits.

Overall pretty happy, interested to see how it paddles.

Regards,
Darren

RFNK

22nd December 2008, 02:25 AM

Congratulations Darren! It looks great and thanks for showing us the steps! :):):):) Is David Payne the yacht designer David Payne, by the way? Also, why did you use chines rather than S & G - ease of build, strength? I'm hoping to build a S & G kayak some time next year (late). At the moment I'm planning to build Willow, a kayak I found in Wooden Boat magazine a little while ago. I'd be grateful for your opinion of that one if you know it. Rick

PS I just looked up David Payne Yachts and found the kayak plans - I didn't know they did kayaks

TK1

22nd December 2008, 08:58 AM

Hi Rick,

Yes, as you found it's the same David Payne. He does some sea kayaks as S&G, but the racing ones are older designs and he based the build method on his larger boats hence the chines and panels. His plans don't have the offsets for the S&G panels and I couldn't be bothered working it out.

Worked fine, although a bit harder to get an exact fair curve as the paulownia was only 12mm thick so not much to take off and so there's a few minor hollows and bumps. Provides a very solid structure and I think I could even go lighter ply next time with this method.

Hopefully plenty more David Payne designs in my future builds! :D

Regards,
Darren

RFNK

22nd December 2008, 10:53 AM

Thanks Darren. So, if you did it again, you'd use lighter ply and that would allow slightly fairer curves I guess, would it? Rick

TK1

22nd December 2008, 11:19 AM

Hi,

Lighter ply would be more for weight reduction. 3mm - 4mm ply is about right for a sea kayak that might take a few hits, and will use heavier glass anyway.

For a racing kayak it shouldn't take too much punishment, so I think I could get away with 1.5mm ply and lighter glass as long as there's a few bulkheads or the chines/stringers to help hold the shape.

Fairing in this case was more to do with getting the paulownia keel & chines straight, and then as these were thin the ply and clamps pushed against them in a few places and dried out of fairness (ge clamping across the hull pulled them in a bit in places). Screwing the ply to the chines would have alleviated this.

S&G is still one one of the easiest ways to get the panels all lined up effectively.

Regards,
Darren

RFNK

22nd December 2008, 11:31 AM

Thanks again Darren. I'm after a kayak to paddle around in Port Stephens. It gets fairly rough at times and I hate craft that don't perform well, so I'd like it to be fairly fast. I weigh about 75kg and I'm fit enough. I'll mainly paddle in early mornings to take a few photos and check out the wildlife etc., but, as said, it can get rough fairly quickly. My brother is a sort of `kayak petrol head' who goes in the Hawkesbury paddle each year so I don't want to be left too far behind him either! Would you recommend a particular kayak to build? Rick

TK1

22nd December 2008, 11:39 AM

S&G will get you on the water a lot faster than a wood strip design. The kings of S&G are generally sonsidered to be Chesapeake Light Craft - www.clcboats.com - and they have lots of seaworthy and efficient designs.

If you check out their site, the kayak descriptions show graphs of their stability, speed, room,e tc. A good way to compare.

The C17 isn't bad - very stable and paddles well, but ther'es faster ones. At 75kg's you'll have a few options due to your light weight as wetted surface area, beam and length all contribute to speed (and also stability). Again there's some good info on the site. I'd definitely look at their Shearwater range, or even the Chesapeake 16LT. The Pax 18 is fast but may not be ideal in bay onditions - although people paddle in the ocean, it's more of a race boat than for photos.

I'd still definitely consider the Willow - I have thought of building that. It looks pretty efficient and would hold up well in the bay. A nice design. Maybe email the designer about speed and what it compares to in this & stability.

Good luck with the build, you can't go wrong with any of these and in 3 or 4mm ply and 120 - 200gsm glass they'll be lighter than plastic sea kayaks and look better.

Regards,
Darren

Dave Brewer

22nd December 2008, 02:55 PM

http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/stitchglue/stitchplans.htm
Tons of information on the site.
Cheers,
Dave.

b.o.a.t.

22nd December 2008, 07:16 PM

The other mob you might consider are http://pygmyboats.com/
I like their more rounded shapes & lowered sheer better than the Greeenland styles.
cheers
AJ

TK1

22nd December 2008, 09:43 PM

OK, so CLC don't have the rights to good designs. Just my favourite "easy to follow" site. :rolleyes:

Also check out www.shearwater-boats.com

Run by Eric Schade, brother of Nick who runs Gulliemot kayaks. Nick does beautiful strip kayaks, Eric doesn't do a bad job of S&G either. Blue Fin may be of interest.

That's my problem...so many choices! About to build a Payne K1 parallel to a Guillemot Night Heron, then have a MicroBootlegger, MillCreek, Payne TK1 again (modified), Flyfisher, and a few others on the list. Then to start on the actual boats...

Regards,
Darren

b.o.a.t.

23rd December 2008, 01:01 AM

LOL
Too many choices.
I got so confused I downloaded Gregg Carlson's "Hulls" & designed my own.
Hoping to have got all of it right this time (hull #5)...

The Mariner

12th January 2009, 10:26 AM

Hi Guys,

S&G will get you on the water a lot faster than a wood strip design.

A Skin On Frame boat will be even quicker again. SoF boats are lighter & cheaper than S&G or stripped kayaks, and if you don't like the way the hull performs you can remove the skin, make changes then apply a new skin. Try modding the hull on a S&G as easily !

West Greenland kayaks are typically narrow, fast & seaworthy so you may like to consider building one. You can get instructions for a typical example on www.instructables.com (http://www.instructables.com) that'll be sized to suit your body dimensions.

Joust

20th May 2009, 07:40 PM

So How does it paddle ?
how much did it tip the scales at ?
was thinking about putting one together, but would like it to compare to a fiberglass one.
Advice is appreciated

TK1

20th May 2009, 09:23 PM

Hi,

Forgot about this thread :-

Firstly, "A Skin On Frame boat will be even quicker again." - Definitely agree. I've just built a Yost Sea Cruiser (17' wood-frame SOF kayak). Designed by Tom Yost - see www.yostworks.com for a whole collection of FREE SOF designs - including folders - built by many happy paddlers. Mine's still to get on the water, but it looks great in it's black PVC skin, and with paulownia framework is very light.

Secondly, to Joust's questions:

It paddles very well. Sat down a bit low in the stern initially, but I moved the seat forwards and it's fine. As it was designed under the 'old' rules it is bigger volume than neccessary, but paddles great and quite stable for a TK1.

I never got around to weighing it, but it should come out at around 12kg's as built. I added a commercial footrest/tiller, rudder and seat so it's probably closer to 14kg. Still pretty light but heavier than today's carbon & kevlar TK1's.

I'd certainly recommend it, and it looks better than a fiberglass one - and a hell of a lot cheaper. If you want to race, a newer fiberflass one will probably go faster but as a general fitness/paddling kayak for rivers and lakes it is excellent. I am about to start a strip one, and will use this as my backup kayak (another Payne design - he does great kayaks!).

Good luck if you decide to build one. Didn't take too long.

Regards,
Darren

Joust

21st May 2009, 10:48 AM

excellent,
thanks for the response. might order a set of his plans soon. I have sailed on a few yachts he has designed also.

Boatmik

21st May 2009, 12:49 PM

Hey Darren,

Do you have some pics of the Payne TK1, I've only seen the drawings in his catalogue .. and David has a great eye for detail.

MIK

jeja

10th June 2009, 10:32 PM

There was a Greenland skin on frame kayak at Hobart this year, and a West Greenland stripper. Quite a few skin on frame canoes too. I have ambitions to build two kayaks, one for myself and one for SWMBO. Hers will have a flatter bottom for stability. Couple of other boats to finish first though.

TK1

10th June 2009, 10:40 PM

Hi Mik,

No photos apart from the earlier ones in this thread.

I'm just in the process of painting the bottome white, and re-building the coackpit coaming, so once done I'll post some pics.

David has drawn me some strip-planked TK1 plans, and I'm about to start building this (after many distractions). This looks like it'll be much faster than the ply version but less stable. The ply one does paddle well and in training kept up with modern glass/carbon designs.

Pics coming soon (Just need to add the deck to my SOF one) - it's a good kayak.

Regards,
Darren

Joust

21st July 2009, 07:58 PM

TK1

21st July 2009, 10:26 PM

Hi,

David travels a fair bit (and works hard) so can sometimes take a while to reply. But he should get back to oyu.

I've got the plans, and got the forms sorted. Looks like a nice shape, and with the removal of the minimum waterline beam ruling, he was able to make a nicely rounded hull section which should provide less wetted surface area and a faster boat.

I am trying to finish a Night Heron first (well, I've got the forms up and strips cut!) but hope to make a start on it soon as it will be a lot faster than my ply one.

Plans are great, up to David's usual high standard. Although eh drew them for me, they were designed to be ones he'd sell to others.

Hopefully he's not waiting for me to finish the prototype...I must email him myself. I thought I'd have it ready for the World Masters in October, but I just haveen't had the time.

Let me know how you get on.

Regards,
Darren

anewhouse

21st July 2009, 11:22 PM

Hi darren,

you mentioned an updated strip TK1, i have emailed David payne, but no response.
sounds like what im after, as i was not convinced to do the ply one.
please keep me in the loop if you got the plans, and if you have started the build.
I would like to get hold of the plans for ths one.

Regards,
Alex
Why not download Kayak Foundry from this site and design your own?
http://www.blueheronkayaks.com/kayak/index.html
I did and this is what it looks like.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?p=1001115#post1001115

Joust

22nd July 2009, 11:31 AM

thanks for the replies guys,

ive had a look at the kayak design program, but not too sure of parameters to design around. I have a capacity sports TK1 here, but things like volume and rocker to aim for are hard to work out. ?

interested in the forms you came up with anewhouse, i have seen your pics and its a good looking craft for sure. Paulownia sounds like the go, a friend of mine has a plantation of them , might hit him up for a bit.

anewhouse

22nd July 2009, 06:47 PM

If you are interested, I could send you the file and you could either just look at it or print out the forms and make one of your own.

I could also send you another version of the file with a couple of minor changes to the deck that I think would be an improvement but would not change the way it performed. At least I could do that when i get the changes done to the file.

i have promised to present some comparative figures soon to compare this TK1 with a Sabre TK1 and my sea kayaks.

Even if you never do anything with the file, I think it is interesting to look at other people's designs.

The good thing about that program is that you might decide you are prepared to accept a bit less stability than me so you might be able to squeeze a little bit more speed out of it. Or you might be stronger than me and be prepared to accept a bit more drag at 4 knots in order to reduce the drag at 5.5 knots. Or you might be a bit heavier, so you would have to change the paddler weight and then fiddle with a few things to get the best performance for yourself.

Anyway, if you are interested, I could send you the file if you already have Kayak Foundry or are prepared to download it.

Joust

26th July 2009, 11:23 PM

a copy of the file you made yours from would be great, very much appreciated.
will most likely fiddle with volume as i am a bit on the heavy side at 85kg. not sure how your TK1 would support this?

i have a great source of paulownia, a fellow i know has a plantation, and can get me trees. i have the machinery, so that bit is easy.
also, what was the built time for yours?

Thanks Again

anewhouse

27th July 2009, 06:37 PM

The hull and deck of the TK1 probably would have been about 10 or 20 hours quicker than a sea kayak because the strips didn't have to bend up at the bow and stern and it is a slightly smaller craft. The rudder would have eaten up all the time saved though.

It took me 165 hours, but I already had a strongback and I didn't need to do the cutout on the forms for the internal strongback because I recycled some of the forms from an earlier kayak. On the other hand I did spend five or six hours scraping and sanding the seal coat off the hull because the rain blew in on the uncured epoxy and made it go blotchy.

I have attached a copy of the file. I had to change the extension on the filename to .txt file to be able to attach it. You will have to change it back to .yak to be able to open it with Kayak Foundry. If that doesn't work, we will think of something else.

As far as I am aware, because the shape of the hull in pretty much constrained by the regulations, the change that is made to a TK1 to make it suit an 85kg paddler instead of a 60kg paddler is just to raise the deck a bit to increase the volume.

labr@

29th July 2009, 08:38 PM

Darren and Allen,

What glue do you use to glue the strips on?

Joust

29th July 2009, 08:53 PM

Allan , could not open the file.
I have made contact with David payne, and hes is sending me his strip TK1 plans.
hopefully it works out pretty well

thanks for the input, will keep you updated on the build

anewhouse

29th July 2009, 09:23 PM

Any old woodworking glue will do. It really only has to hold the wood together until you get the fibreglass on. You don't need anything like epoxy because it never gets wet.

In fact almost any PVA wood glue is stronger than the timber itself.

The kayak I built almost seven years ago just used ordinary PVA and it has shown no signs of any problems.

Glennandrew

26th October 2020, 11:41 AM

hi darren

I just bought some plans for the TK1 single chine kayak david payne plans
from boat craft

came across your thread and would love to ask for your advice on best plan of attack to begin this build

a bit confused re moulds and bulkheads and how to measure out the 3mm ply panels

have one 5m long table
do i trace out both the moulds and bulkheads ,
lay keel side up at set distances, ? then measure bottom panels and apply
when do you take out the moulds etc

currently doing a stitch and glue shearwater which has full scale plans and instruction manual , the k1 only has single b1 page , so a bit uncertain for now
regards
glenn

ian

27th October 2020, 02:18 AM