Table Saw vs SCMS

[CameronPotter]

Hi all,

I am getting my workshop back together after spending some years in the US. At present I have a bandsaw, thicknesser, router table in terms of wood machinery. The one thing that I am really missing is something that can do accurate mitre cuts (or accurate cuts in general for that matter). As I will soon be making some furniture I will be needing something to fill this role. I had been thinking about a SCMS, but seeing a few posts it seems that people think that a decent table saw can do all that a SCMS can do and more.

So I am looking for advice and opinions - which should I be looking at given the tools I have.

Oh also, as an aside, I am planning on making do with my thicknesser and router table instead of a jointer - will this be OK?

Cheers

Cam

[silentC]

The chief thing to consider I reckon is that with a tablesaw, you move the work, whereas with an SCMS you move the saw. So if you are working with long lengths of material, cross cutting on an SCMS is much easier. You can also more easily bring the SCMS to the job, so it's good for site work such as fit outs.

On the other hand, an SCMS cannot rip.

You need both really :)

[CameronPotter]

I was afraid that you might say that...

Actually, now to add confusion to the matter. I can borrow use of a Triton saw set up and also of a GMC SCMS.

I have not had a lot of luck with tuning the Triton in the past, but maybe a better table saw would do better. As for carrying the SCMS around, I am happy for now for something that will be a permanent fixture in the shed.

Cheers

Cam

[silentC]

A lot of people get by with an SCMS and a hand held circular saw. You do your joinery cuts mitres etc on the SCMS and use the circular saw with a clamp on fence for ripping and sheet material. A lot of your ripping can be done with the bandsaw. If you get one of those Festool saws with the guide system, you probably don't need a tablesaw at all.

Some people get on OK with a Triton, I used one for a few years and it did all I wanted it to. You have the added advantage of being able to use the saw on it's own for breaking down large sheets of ply etc.

I'd say don't be too quick to race out and buy a tablesaw until you work out the shortcomings of what you have (or can borrow). You can do plenty with what you already have.

[CameronPotter]

Sounds like good advice. I don't like borrowing tools as they are never there when you need them, but I suppose that I can at least use them to figure out what I can't do without... :D

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

I'm a Tritoneer, but all I use it for is ripping, trenching & the occasional long bevel. A high-end TS would be a waste... although I still want one. :wink:

For x-grain work I use the SCMS, except for trimming wide slabs and even then a clamped fence and CS is more managable than a TS, unless one also has an extension table.

[orraloon]

What Silentc said. You would need a good table saw to do the cuts you want accurately and that is big dollars. If you have the budget and space then yes get one. A lot of the challenge and satisfaction in woodwork is making the best use of what is at hand.
Regards
John

[CameronPotter]

Sounds like I can get by with a SCMS for now then and use the bandsaw for most of my ripping and use the Triton when I really need to...

So my next question would be, is a GMC SCMS ok or should I really go for the DeWalt/Makita range - or even a Festool as their SCMS don't seem TOO much more on Justtools.com.au

Cheers
Cam

[CameronPotter]

Thanks John,

It seems like most people here are voting for a SCMS... That was what I was thinking until I read another thread where it seemed that many people said a table saw from somewhere like Trade Tools Direct would be better than a SCMS (and not much dearer).

Cheers

Cam

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

A GMC is good stuff for docking wood for house frames but, frankly, I wouldn't want to rely on one for accurate, repeatable mitres of "picture frame" quality.

The "Table Saws" from TTD at equivalent SCMS prices are Tradesmens Saws, which are basically the new Triton. They're a different thing to a good TS.

[CameronPotter]

Thanks Skew,

Sounds like a decent SCMS is the way to go then - I tend to be particular about my finishes and it sounds like the GMC would just make me mad.

Cheers

Cam

[Expat]

Can you fit a dado to a SCMS? No! Can you make long rip cuts with an SCMS? No! Can you make taper rip cuts for table legs on a SCMS? No! Can you cross-cut a 20+ inch wide piece of sheet stock with a SCMS? NO!

You can do all of that and a heck of a lot more with even a moderately descent table saw. With my Incra mitre gauge I can do compound mitre cuts on my contractor table saw. I'd like to have a SCMS - I have my on eye on the King 12" - but my Incra gauge lets me cross cut up to 49" wide pieces and my cross cut sled allows me to accurately cut boards or sheet stock up to 34" from front to back and as wide as my garage will allow.

The table saw is THE number one tool in my shop.

ps You can use a table saw as a jointer too. You can't do that with a SCMS!

[CameronPotter]

It looks like we have a vote for a table saw...

Would a contractor table saw with an Incra jig be good enough for fine joinery?

It seems that others are saying that a SCMS would generally be a bit more accurate and I think that I could probably do a fair amount of the other stuff that a table saw can do on either my bandsaw or my router table (or both).

Cheers

Cam

[Expat]

It looks like we have a vote for a table saw...
Would a contractor table saw with an Incra jig be good enough for fine joinery?
It seems that others are saying that a SCMS would generally be a bit more accurate and I think that I could probably do a fair amount of the other stuff that a table saw can do on either my bandsaw or my router table (or both).
Cheers
Cam
I have my contractor aligned using a digital micrometer and a dial gauge. The runout on the arbour plate is less than 0.002, the blade is aligned to the mitre tracks within 0.0005 and the fence is aligned to the blade to the same degree. Santa brought me the Incra 3000SE and it's able to make cuts adjustable to 0.5 degrees. I have adjusted it to the mitre track to the same degree as the blade and the fence. Next time you grab hold of any SCMS other than - I can't believe I'm about to say this - a Festool you tell me how much flex there is from side to side when the blade is extended out all the way.
I don't have a mitre saw at present and the only reason I'm looking to get one is for breaking down long pieces of board stock before I use the table saw to make the final size cuts. Oh yeah and I want one to build my deck. Fine joinery? Table saw and a very good mitre gauge for me.
Oh and one other thing. If you're making a bunch of picture frames a frame jig on a table saw is way more accurate than any mitre saw - even a Festool!

edit:
Funnily enough there are two threads on our Canadian forum where the question of TS vs SCMS and picture frame mitres are being hotly debated. The majority opinion in both threads seems to be leaning heavily towards the table saw!
http://forum.canadianwoodworking.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14770&d=1231371156
Incra.......
http://forum.canadianwoodworking.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14769&d=1231371156
Rockler.....

[silentC]

Nobody said table saws aren't useful. Of course there are tasks that a table saw is perfectly suited for. That doesn't mean there aren't alternatives.

Dado: Router
Long rip cuts: Hand held circular saw + fence
Taper rip: Bandsaw
Cross cut wide sheet material: Hand held circular saw + fence

So it's not as if you simply cannot do without a table saw. I like mine and use it all the time but there are alternatives for almost every thing that you can do on it.

[Vernonv]

I'll add my vote to the table saw.

Long rip cuts: Hand held circular saw + fence
That's works well with sheet or wide timber, but is dangerous (or nearly impossible) with thin stock.


Taper rip: BandsawBut it won't leave a very neat edge (unlike a fine tooth table saw blade) and being tapered, you can't put it though a thicknesser without a special jig. The table saw will leave a finish that could easily be sanded smooth.

I don't have a SCMS, but I do have a RAS and I mainly use it for cuts on very long boards (i.e. decking) or for breaking down long stock so that I can use it on the panel saw.

[CameronPotter]

Nobody said table saws aren't useful. Of course there are tasks that a table saw is perfectly suited for. That doesn't mean there aren't alternatives.

Dado: Router
Long rip cuts: Hand held circular saw + fence
Taper rip: Bandsaw
Cross cut wide sheet material: Hand held circular saw + fence

So it's not as if you simply cannot do without a table saw. I like mine and use it all the time but there are alternatives for almost every thing that you can do on it.


I guess that this is kind of what I am thinking at present, but if it is just as easy (and more accurate) to use a table saw, then maybe a SCMS is a waste of money (since the table saw can do more).

Of course, that assumes that it is just as easy to use a table saw and that the price difference is relatively small...

[derekcohen]

It really comes down to the type of furniture you want to make, the type of joints you plan to use, and your level and confidence in handskills.

I don't own a SCMS. I would consider a large dropsaw for docking, but neither of these two is accurate enough for gapless joints so I have not seriously considered purchasing one.

I do have a tablesaw that is set up to make very accurate cross- and rip cuts. It is the tool long rips, which will be done with greater precision and better finish than a bandsaw.

Some turn their tablesaw into a complete woodworking work area - ripping, crosscutting, joinery of many different types, dados, grooving, etc. As much as I today value my bandsaw above my tablesaw, I would not part with the latter.

I do a lot of handwork and for fine tweaking I prefer a shooting board. A SCMS is not in the same ballpark as something like this.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[silentC]

But it won't leave a very neat edge etc etc
Look, I'm not saying you don't want a table saw. People are going to rabbit on about ifs and buts and have a million reasons why a suggested alternative is not going to work. We all have our methods and are defensive about them if someone comes along and tells us they're no good.

Zealous table saw users are going to tell you it is the tool for the job. In many cases, it is no doubt the best. I can't be bothered arguing about it really, because I probably agree. All I wanted to point out was that if you are working with very long material, the drop saw is better and that you can make do without a table saw. There are alternatives, some are a compromise, some are not.

What I am doing is offering some information to contrast with the table saw evangelism that will inevitably follow.

Buy a Sawstop. :)

[Elill]

Obviously both is ideal, if I had a choice of a SCMS or a table saw, I'd go for a table any day of the week and twice on Sunday....but they take up space and IMHO you need a big one..of course (mine just died (28 years old - not bad) and my new place doesn't have the room

So I've just taken delivery of my new Kapex (like 2 minutes ago (sorry had to gloat to someone :U) and I will get a Festool plunge and guides for doing my rip work etc...not sure how I'll go doing taper rips, buts thats something I'll have to deal with when I get around to it...as I will cutting thin stock which I use often for edging etc. that said you can put a plunge in a table...not really sure how well that goes as I haven't used one.

If you've got the space get a table saw, its a better tool which is more flexible on its own with guides etc over a SCMS and a hand held/guide rail circular combo. The table does all the same stuff, just as well (although sometimes slower), and does more as highlighted by the others

[Vernonv]

I can't be bothered arguing about it really...

OK, what have you done with the real SilentC ... :q:U

[silentC]

Yeah, a bit out of character that, wasn't it. I'd say I made a new years resolution not to argue for the sake of it but it's too late for that already :D

[CameronPotter]

I really appreciate the differences in opinion (and I know that both is ideal) but I would prefer to buy which ever is the most useful for now (considering my other tools) and given that I will want to cut a whole heap of beading for the house, I reckon it sounds like the SCMS is the go...

Thanks for all the advice - I may regret not having a table saw in the future, but then that will just have to be an excuse to go and get another tool... :wink:

Cheers

Cam

[Christos]

This can go on for a while. Many people have thoughs of one over the other.

I have one but the best advise that I would like to give is for you to try both from a simple borrowing of tools basic ones that you have access to, as you mention early in the thread. So try using both and get a feel of what would be best for you and what you want to do.

[Expat]

Not being all that up on what the prices are like at home these days please forgive me if the following isn't feasible.
Why not get both? Look around e-bay, Craig's List or similar for a good used table saw and buy a simple mitre saw rather than a SCMS? I have serious space problems which was why I went with a contractor saw rather than a hybrid or a full on cabinet saw and am installing said saw into a mobile workcentre along with a router table and sanding station. Of course price was also a consideration but I'm very pleased with what I wound up with. I do feel the need for a mitre saw but it's nothing I can't get by without for a while.There is simply nothing I have produced so far that could be done to anywhere near the level of accuracy I need on a mitre saw and/or with the assistance of a circular saw and a straightedge.
I have my circular saw equipped with a high quality combination blade and a zero clearance plate that also runs on an aluminium track. I use it to break down large sheet stock and at a pinch I could use it to break down boards as well. There is no way I would use it for the repetitive cuts that you'd need to make when producing furniture just as I wouldn't use a simple chop saw or a SCMS to do similar things. Those tools have their place in any well equipped shop but they simply do not replace a table saw!

[billrule]

Isn't this just a perfect example of the value of having somewhere you could actually go and spend a bit of quality time USING each. I live out of town, so I'd have to get lucky with a well-equipped friend I suppose, (and who wouldn't :shifty1:) but we should be able to organise something in the bigger smokes to allow that.
Having said that, given budget and space, I'd love a good tablesaw!

Bill

[CameronPotter]

Hi all,

Thanks for your advice - as it happens there was a heavy-duty table saw (not a contractor saw) for sale in the paper on the weekend - after much sweating and heaving it now resides in my workshop! :2tsup:

It looks like I might have to make do with borrowing the SCMS when I need to cut long bits of wood, but everything else should be able to be done with this beauty.

Cheers

Cam

[Vernonv]

Hi Cam,
Congrats on the saw purchase :2tsup:


It looks like I might have to make do with borrowing the SCMS when I need to cut long bits of wood ...
You could always invest in a small hand saw. I find for trim, skirting, etc (i.e. small stuff) that I tend to use a small tenon saw (rather than the RAS) - quick and accurate (and very cheap).

[damian]

I realise you've solved your dilemma, but I can't help but add my 2c. These arguments are quite amusing imo. I managed for years with nothing but a handheld circular saw. Getting a jigsaw was a relevation! And people with more skill than I'll ever have have managed to make spectacularly beautiful things with hand tools. The point is it doesn't matter. Which ever you buy you'll get good service out of it. There are some jobs best done of a particular machine, there is also a lot of overlap. There are tablesaw evangelists, router evangelists, bandsaw evangelists.

All that really matters is your having fun.

Now you own a table saw you really NEED to learn to count to ten, and practise it often :)

[CameronPotter]

Actually I have a few nice handsaws - but they are mainly ripsaws. I will need to dig them out and evaluate them again. However, I also need to get a half decent mitre box then... But that ain't too bad either. And I can always set up a shooting board to tune the cuts if necessary.

Cheers

Cam



Hi Cam,
Congrats on the saw purchase :2tsup:


You could always invest in a small hand saw. I find for trim, skirting, etc (i.e. small stuff) that I tend to use a small tenon saw (rather than the RAS) - quick and accurate (and very cheap).

[CameronPotter]

Yeah, I must admit that hand work can do a hell of a lot - if you are good and well trained. I am hoping that some of the machinery should shorten some of the learning curve (and speed things up). Plus, who doesn't like toys?

:D


I realise you've solved your dilemma, but I can't help but add my 2c. These arguments are quite amusing imo. I managed for years with nothing but a handheld circular saw. Getting a jigsaw was a relevation! And people with more skill than I'll ever have have managed to make spectacularly beautiful things with hand tools. The point is it doesn't matter. Which ever you buy you'll get good service out of it. There are some jobs best done of a particular machine, there is also a lot of overlap. There are tablesaw evangelists, router evangelists, bandsaw evangelists.

All that really matters is your having fun.

Now you own a table saw you really NEED to learn to count to ten, and practise it often :)

[Ruddigar]

Buy a Sawstop. :)

:~ Get your own catch-phrase. :~

[jmk89]

FWIW my 2c.

Whichever way you go, Cameron, there will be some things you will want the other tool for from time to time. One workaround that I use is to get the timber merchant I am buying from to do the cuts on their equipment that I can't do on my own. Normally that is a rip of a long piece which is just plain hard work to do on your own but which is a piece of cake on their saws or to break up sheets of ply/mdf/masonite into more manageable bits. So far, no-one has tried to charge me for the cuts (but I don't buy wood or even mdf from Bunnings/Mitre 10 if I cna help it!)

[Geoff Dean]

:~ Get your own catch-phrase. :~

Why? you don't need it any more. :D

[koala_1977]

Hi all,

Both have there pros and cons, im lucky i guess i have a triton and a SCMS, plus other cutting utensils. If it was me I finb both are just as good as each other they both have abilities that the other doesnt. I had the SCMS first thoug I was glad when i got the triton though a Mk3 as Ive used it just as much. Good luck at finding what suits as well another consideration is what sort of work are you going to do will guage heavily on what you buy FIRST.......


Cheers Ken