Chair help

[Afro Boy]

This chair was just given to me by my FIL. We think it might have been made by his grandfather so that would place it around the 100yr old mark. I'm not totally convinced though as it has some bolts and a few screws underneath - although these might be later repair works.

Would be keen on any insight you geniuses here can give me.

The photos:


The chair itself.
One of the rails on the back. Clearly a dowel join.
Vertical rail on the back. They're slotted into the cross bars and move up and down. Like a M&T joint but uses the whole piece as a tenon.
Underside. In each corner the triangle pieces are screwed in place. At the bottom (towards the back) there are two bolts holding a cross piece to the back. Not sure why though.

Cheers,
Af.

[hap97]

The easiest chair to repair is one where all joints are loose and the chair can be easily dismantled. This does not appear to be one of those.
So here is a suggested procedure:


The seat should come out easily.
Identify how many joints are actually loose? You have identified one dowel joint. What about the joints at the top of the curved back? (The vertical rails are often loose on old chairs. Can have some glue put in, but they are not structural.)
Check the corner leg-rail joints at the triangle pieces, loose or OK. (Unscrew the triangle corners if necessary.) Tap gently with a hammer to see how secure they are. If any are loose then open up so the dowels are exposed.
Check the lower rung joints. Are any loose?
All loose joints are now identified and slightly apart. (Others are probably still holding firmly.)
Clean off old glue as much as possible, use an old knife or file or coarse abrasive paper.
Using a good quality PVA glue, cover all exposed joint areas, dowels and flat surfaces.
Now cramp it up using sash cramps. around the main leg-rail area. (If no cramps are available then use a Ratchet Tie Down webbing strap or a webbing luggage strap with a holding buckle. If non of these then use rope with a knot that will pull light. As a last resort use packaging tape, but it may pull off the finish!)
Wipe off all excess glue with a damp cloth.
Glue and screw back the triangle pieces.
Leave to dry for 24 - 48 hours before removing cramps
Polish chair with favourite furniture polish.

NOTES:


The bolted section may have been installed to strengthen the chair. It is a common method. Loosen the nuts and retighten after gluing.
The original glues and joints have come loose, it will happen again, especially if the joints are not fully cleaned.

Attached is a photo of a chair joint needing repair.

Hilton

[Afro Boy]

Hilton, thanks so much for the detailed response. I really appreciate it.

Most of the joins are still reasonably tight. I've taken out the seat like you said (it lifted right out) and here are is a shot of the internals:

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=93862

Looking at it more closely, the bolts in the back seem to be there to pull the base together. I find it an odd fixture - is it really that common?

The piece isn't stained/finished but appears to be of the same wood when compared with an unfinished piece on the base of the seat. So, I presume it was original.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=93865

You'll see it's separated a bit at the join here as well. Probably worth separating this base off the back and cleaning up those M&T joins to put it back together flush.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=93866

An oddly marked "43" on an unstained portion of the front rail.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=93867

Any thoughts as to the design/era of the chair?

Cheers,
Af

[hap97]

The 43 could well be 1943. It could be a good quality wartime piece.There was a lot of poor quality at this time.
A chair generally breaks from from to back. The back frame gets little sideways forces and generally remains intact. The cross bolted piece aids in the front-back forces. By looking at the trench the piece fits into may reveal if it was later installed. (ie trench is roughly cut). Check for yourself on how the cross piece works push the seat front-back after the nuts are removed.

Photo 3 shows that the corner joint is probably loose!

I have used Howard Restore-a-Finish on this type of surface, it really bring life back to the finish.
http://www.howardproducts.com.au/products/restor-a-finish.htm

After knocking apart the joints, send more photos.

Hilton

[Afro Boy]

Thanks again for the response.


The 43 could well be 1943. It could be a good quality wartime piece.There was a lot of poor quality at this time.Quite possibly. If that's the case, I'm going to proceed very very carefully here in order to not do any damage to it. We're going to ask around the family to see if we can piece together any more clues.


Check for yourself on how the cross piece works push the seat front-back after the nuts are removed.The chair is pretty darned stable without this cross piece. Perhaps it was preventative - the maker may have known something about building chairs.

I've started taking what I can apart. Many of the joints are firmly embedded. Some begin to come apart but don't go much further than 4mm. I'm nervous about forcing it. I am using a clamp in "reversed mode" to help pry pieces apart.

When I push the joint back together I can feel some resistance at the end. I guess it's pretty messy in there.


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3480/3190993848_53eb1f87fd.jpg



By looking at the trench the piece fits into may reveal if it was later installed. (ie trench is roughly cut).The trench is quite smooth and uniform and there is no break in the finish at the ends (i.e. I can see the finish roll around the edge).

There is slight groove that is narrower than the main cut-out - it goes the whole way across the piece. Any thoughts on how this might have been formed?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3531/3190144675_d711437c7c.jpg


Should I be trying to pry apart and clean every joint or only those that move easily and only as far as they willingly go?

Also, for the joints that do come apart, when I clean off the glue (it's quite brittle), how far should I shave off? I'm nervous about the pieces not fitting back tightly enough.

Am keeping a log of higher res photos on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/carljoseph/sets/72157612471490018/) for those interested.

Thanks,
Af.

[hap97]

Appears the joints are Mortise and Tenon. Better and stronger than dowel joints.

If a joint only moves 4mm and no further, then so be it. The brittle glue is probably animal glue. Get off as much as possible.

The photo of the trench shows some splitting? If so, this can happen, just glue it back with the rest.

Appears that the back frame has come off completely. If so, this is good as it can be glued separately. If so, will respond with further suggestions.

Hilton

[Afro Boy]

Hi again,

Spent a little more time on this over the weekend. The back of the chair doesn't come off at all. Those joints are pretty solid. No splitting either in the trench (probably just a bad photograph).

I've cleaned up as many of the joints I could get access to. For the one that only came out 4mm or so (below) I cleaned up the exposed area quite well. When gluing this join back together, what's the best way to do it? I could just brush in as much glue as I can around the area then clamp it shut. Is it as simple as that?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3480/3190993848_53eb1f87fd.jpg

The vertical rails on the back of the chair are really loose. They move up and down in their mortise. I've managed to get them all out and cleaned out all the dust in the mortise. They don't appear to have been glued in there at all. When putting this back together I have three options:


Glue them into place so they don't slide up/down
Put them back without any glue and allow them to move freely
Fill the mortise with something to get it to the correct depth then glue the verticals into place

What do people suggest I do?

Finally, when gluing this chair back together is there a particular glue people recommend I use?

Thanks,
Af.

[hap97]

Glueing Suggerstions


Glue: PVA (Selleys Adquadhere or Titebond PVA)
Spreading Glue: Use a finger or brush to make sure the glue has covered all the surfaces. Glue all exposed joints and then cramp as explained earlier. Clean off glue with a damp cloth.
Vertical Rails: These are often loose and may have never been originally glued. I find it best to apply some PVA glue and make sure they are then in the correct position (ie. No old lines exposed.)
If all joints need to be glued the best procedure is to glue up the back frame and front frame separately and when cured glue in the side rails and bottom rails. (In this case the front frame does not have a bottom cross member so keeping the frame square could be difficult.)
Tighten the bolts while the glue is wet.
Ensure the chair sits evenly on its 4 feet, if not twist to make it so.
Put aside for glue to fully cure.

There was a good information on glues in an online "Woodworkers Journal Express" magazine mentioned in another forum
http://www.zinio.com/express3?issue=273042679

Hilton

[Afro Boy]

Finally got to do some more work on this tonight.

After pulling apart as much as I could, cleaning out the joints, etc. the chair is now sitting on my workbench drying in clamps. I applied glue to every joint I could get to and clamped it nice and tight and square. Thanks for the tips so far.

So ... next ... cleaning up the finish. There is definitely a stain on this chair. Front facing parts are smoother than the other internal faces. This is either due to sanding or perhaps an additional finish on top. Any thoughts what it might be for a chair of 1943 era (I assume)?

What would be a good next step to bringing back the original finish of the piece?

Thanks,
Af.

[hap97]

Try to acquire Howard Restore-a-Finish in the colour of the original. It works very well.
http://www.howardproducts.com.au/pro...r-a-finish.htm (http://www.howardproducts.com.au/products/restor-a-finish.htm)

Hilton

[Afro Boy]

Finally finished cleaning everything up, putting the chair back together and giving it a good polish reviver and clean.

End product doesn't look much different to the original (especially with the crappy iPhone photos) but it much cleaner and the grain is now showing a little more which is quite nice. It's also much more sturdier.

Here are the photos of the brief adventure (http://www.flickr.com/photos/carljoseph/sets/72157612471490018/).

Thank you for all the wonderful advice and help. Special thanks to Hilton. Your advice was extremely useful.

:2tsup: