Government Corruption and the effect on Employees

[Fantapantz]

As a prequil to this thread I would like to state that all comments are hypothetical even though the person in which they are written says otherwise, and all statemnts have no relation to reAL PERSONS OR SITUATIONS. All comments by all persons are hypothetical and any relation to actual events/persons should be deemed as a coincidence.

[Fantapantz]

Questions

What do you do when you have evidence of a government department editing/modifying evidence?

What do you do if a governemnt departments policy breaches legislation and there is a cover up?

[echnidna]

change jobs so you don't cop the stress of dealing with XXXXholes

[Groggy]

Government Ombudsman

[wheelinround]

Write a book about it and become famous

other than that what else is new ie:- many NSW state councils being sacked NSW state gov ministers being sacked :?

[Waldo]

Ring Today Tonight and Current Affair and hold a toothbrush with your back to the camera. :2tsup:

[Ron Dunn]

Find some old cardboard, the tattier the better. Crudely nail it to a garden stake. Write lots of tiny text in thick waterproof pen. Don't restrict yourself to writing conventionally right-to-left, top-to-bottom, cram as much text as you can in every direction.

Find a busy street corner in the CBD.

Forget to comb your hair.

Wear a cardigan.

Stand on the corner during the busiest times of day, making sure to block as much of the passing traffic as possible. Roll your eyes a lot. Occasionally lunge at passers-by just to make sure they've seen you.

Do this every day for three years.

Now you're part of the regular collection of nutters that believe in government conspiracies, etc, and your life will be truly enriched :)

[Gra]

Find some old cardboard, the tattier the better. Crudely nail it to a garden stake. Write lots of tiny text in thick waterproof pen. Don't restrict yourself to writing conventionally right-to-left, top-to-bottom, cram as much text as you can in every direction.

Find a busy street corner in the CBD.

Forget to comb your hair.

Wear a cardigan.

Stand on the corner during the busiest times of day, making sure to block as much of the passing traffic as possible. Roll your eyes a lot. Occasionally lunge at passers-by just to make sure they've seen you.

Do this every day for three years.

Now you're part of the regular collection of nutters that believe in government conspiracies, etc, and your life will be truly enriched :)

You have been to my workplace:~.. There is one of those nutters that has been camped out in front of our building for about 5 years with a second guy thats been there for the same time about half a block down the road....

[Pheonix]

Got it in one!!:2tsup:

[prozac]

Write a book about it and become famous

other than that what else is new ie:- many NSW state councils being sacked NSW state gov ministers being sacked :?

I have a feeling some of those sacking were so that an administrator could pass planning changes to NSW govt satisfaction. I took a minor issue to ombudsman that I believe administrator just covered up.

Fantapantz, you cannot report it for fear of reprisal. Go talk with a good investigative journo if it is serious enough.

Conspiracies! Did I ever tell you about meeting a Korean spy in 1976 who had interesting things to say about Harold H.? (Sorry no names, true story)

[Fantapantz]

I'll wait until I lose my job before the investigative journalist is contacted.

When i do lose my job i will try the cardboard thing. I'll do it outside the ABC or Newscorp and hand out fliers,hopefully soemone will be board of doing stories on fad diets in the 730 timeslot.

[bsrlee]

Queensland's Government did this a 'few' years ago - destroyed all relevant documents after receiving a sub poena, on advice from one of their senior public servants. His name - Kevin Rudd.

[Lignin]

Fanta,
If everybody in Brisbane is aware of the "rort".,then nobody cares, so find a comfy pub, have a few, and forget it.
If you are sure that the rort is still a rort, swallow your pride, cover your bottom(!), and seek out a GOOD investigative journalist.(I'd go further than "The Courier"!)
Do not be afraid, They will respect your anonanymity, and, if it's worth it, blow the lid to buggery!!
The fourth estate is not all bad.

[corbs]

If this hypothetical situation is happening in your workplace I would ensure you have evidence to support any claims you might make in the future (including names dates and possible witnesses). I wouldn't leave it too long though as questions might be asked why you didn't do something about it sooner:(.

[Fantapantz]

Not doing anything sooner? How about not doing anything at all ? How can you beat the government when they have modified evidence?

I do have proof of that, the silly buggers didn't modify file names before sending me audio recordings. So The properties of the files show when they were modified. This was after sending me a blank disc originally, and not sending a disc to my union rep as requested.

How can you fight a broad accusation when they refuse to tell you when where and exactly what you did?

Or how about, an outcome that basically says: The evidence says you didn't say it, but because they didn't read your email properly and hence they thought you said it, we'll still count you guilty of it saying it because they didn't show wrong intent by accusing you. And by the way we refuse to interview any other parties and will treat everything you say as heresay because we didn't interview the other parties that you and another witness asked to be interviewed.

Standard Government Policy is: "Do not have an investigation unless you know what outcome you want and are willing to work towards it. The truth is not in the best interests of flexibility, geeze next people will want accountability, and imagine the paperwork that would involve."

[prozac]

Not doing anything sooner? How about not doing anything at all ? How can you beat the government when they have modified evidence?

I do have proof of that, the silly buggers didn't modify file names before sending me audio recordings. So The properties of the files show when they were modified. This was after sending me a blank disc originally, and not sending a disc to my union rep as requested.

How can you fight a broad accusation when they refuse to tell you when where and exactly what you did?

Or how about, an outcome that basically says: The evidence says you didn't say it, but because they didn't read your email properly and hence they thought you said it, we'll still count you guilty of it saying it because they didn't show wrong intent by accusing you. And by the way we refuse to interview any other parties and will treat everything you say as heresay because we didn't interview the other parties that you and another witness asked to be interviewed.

Standard Government Policy is: "Do not have an investigation unless you know what outcome you want and are willing to work towards it. The truth is not in the best interests of flexibility, geeze next people will want accountability, and imagine the paperwork that would involve."

Very Kafka-esque Fanta.

Unless you are VERY sure of your union rep be very wary his representation of you. Unless your proof is irrefutable take a good holiday and forget about it. If it still bugs you when you return try and look at it through fresh eyes and decide if the outcome is worth the bucketloads that will rain down on you if you splash in the pool.

It's all very well saying you have to live with yourself, but you also have to live within yourself. Sh*t like this can alter you mental health for years to come. Safe passage Fanta.

[Fantapantz]

Siht like this has already altered my mental health forever.

It's a bit of a revelation when you realise that the government that you basically thought was righteous turns out to be full of self serving imbeciles who have no regard for the law or even their own policies.


After fourteen years with an employer I'm planning on getting out within twelve months.

I like that term Kafkaesque by the way very suscinct.

[Sturdee]

It's a bit of a revelation when you realise that the government that you basically thought was righteous turns out to be full of self serving imbeciles who have no regard for the law or even their own policies.


Without details it sounds like Kafkaesque to me, BUT what made you think that any government is righteous. Government and righteousness do not go together.

Reminds me of one senior public servant who said that if the law doesn't cover what they did they would get an order in council to authorize what they had done.

Get out and forget it, you can't win fighting the government, just ask Journeyman Mick about his efforts like yours.


Peter.

[Fantapantz]

Thats the problem with integrity I suppose. If you've got some you tend to think other people have as well. Until humananity shows what it really is. Unfortunately the government is supposed to be the one that stands up for the society we are led to believe we have.

If you look at it historiacally the world hasn't changed much. Spanish Inquisitions still occur, its just that there's better coverups and more formal ways of editing and fabricating evidence.

But ................always look o---n the br--i--ght side of life.......da da....da.da....da.da....da.da.

[mega]

I have worked as an auditor and have been unlucky enough to find myself in this sort of situation several times. I can only tell you that govt/clubs/corporate bodies/political parties will ALWAYS cover up and support each other to "protect" the organisation.
You may end up like me,
1. blackballed, unable to get a job because of inferred bad behaviour and no references,
2. worse. Threatened and constantly in fear of your life. unable to go out without being accompanied, and certainly not at night.

Your life will be turned upside down.

Remember, you won't just be up against a government dept, many of these people have criminal associates.
One of the problems arising from the drug "industry" is that criminals have invested money in legitimate companies and think nothing of paying people back.
They ensure that they befriend senior government officials and can't wait to do favours because they can then expect a favour in return. It part of their insurance policy- to get special treatment with tendering, double billing, rework and special treatment.etc etc.

3. you will probaly be threatened to have a contract taken out on you, and don't think
the police can help you, because they cant.

Corruption is almost endemic at all levels. If you don't believe me, have a look on google for whistleblowers and read some of the reports on "organised crime in australia".

my advice is.
1 leave the job. or get a transfer quick.
2 Keep quiet about it
3 Notify a respected journalist using an alias. DO NOT use your own name because you will be traced.

Then tell yourself you did your best, and try to get on with your life.

I feel for you.
Mega
.

[dazzler]

HI Fanta

This is my recipe to surviving this sort of thing.

1. Everyone will lie. You, me, everyone around us will lie to protect themselves. Always have, always will.

2. Write it all down. Clearly, succinctly and without emotion. Do not make suppositions, do not make theories, do not use emotion, do not attack them personally. Just the facts straight to the point. Anything you say that cannot be proven will undermine you.

3. Make your complaint to the appropriate Ombudsman. These people are good and try thier best. I have been investigated by the ombudsman and its not much fun.

4. Forget about it. This is the thing that most people screw up on and go mental. From here on in its a game. The game is for each side to make the other look bad. The other side will try to make you look like a lunatic, I would if i stood to lose my job or livelihood just like everyone else. The hard thing is to accept this and not take it personally. If they find in your favour then thats great, if they dont then its because they were able to get away with it. Thats life...who cares what these people think if you know the truth.

5. Forget about it.....

cheers

[SPIRIT]

somebody has been watching to much tv

if real people are getting hurt l would get legal advice if its just money well as my dady always said only fight the fights you can win

[prozac]

Lots of good advice offered Fanta.

Diarise everything daily. Courts place a lot of emphasis on diary entries. Like dazzler says write a chronological log of events also. Even if you do not use it as an affidavit it is much easier to have someone read your statement of key events than to have you talk them through it. Don't forget to number each new fact in paragraph form, and into subsets where necessary.

Only leave the job when you are ready to leave. Maintain your own integrity and worry less about the integrity of others where it does not impact upon you. Smile and be cordial to everyone without being overly friendly. Don't let anyone think you do not approve of their methods. It's not about being complicit but just allowing yourself to blend in for the sole purpose of limiting your stress.

Again do not trust your union.

If put before the spanish inquisition don't be afraid to answer questions with a question. ie: "Do you think I did that"

To those of you that think this is conspiracy theory stuff, think again. It does happen.

This sort of thing will turn you into a babbling idiot if you take the high moral ground. It's time to start looking after yourself.

ps: Like Spirit says, it won't hurt to talk to a lawyer. Look for a good plaintiff's lawyer like Carroll & O'Dea, the first meeting is usually free and will apprise him your situation should you need assisitance down the track.

[Fantapantz]

This issue is out of the jurisdiction of the ombudsman so it would be passed onto the Anyi-Discrimination Commision. I suppose i can talk about a policy that whistle blowers says isn't a whistle blow because its a public document (even though the public can't access it unless they have a departmental computer).

Overview

Duplexes are rented out.
Different forms of rent are used depending on relationship status.
Single persons pay more rent but have electricity and gas reimbursed.
Couples pay less rent but pay their own electricity/gas

The difference in rent does not compensate couples suficiently.
If a couple asks to rent in the same way as singles they are not allowed.
Even though the job description and number of people is the same, couples are not allowed to rent as singles. The difference in rent is calculated after the standard of accommodation is assessed. Hence breach of Anti-Discrimination Act.

Theoretically after calculations there should be no difference in costs for the landlord or the tenants. If this was the case allowing couples to choose to rent as singles would make no difference.

Complain about this issue and you will be transfered so we can get you out of our housing.

Seems a pettty little matter. But wait till you push legislation, everyone seems to get awfully upset. By stating a persons responsibilities with respect to following legislation you are actually harasing them.

A transfer isn't much of an issue, but then take into consideration the loss of income $220 000 over four years when everything is added up. The house could have been paid off, having two kids would have been viable without changing jobs etc etc.

The union countersigned the policy by the way so i wouldn't trust them.

Legal Aid said to take it to the Anti-Discrimination Commision. The Anti-Discrimination Commission said it was discrimination, (but think of the toll it's going to take on you if you push the issue).

As you can see I'm already a babbling idiot, government supported victimisation tends to do that to me.

[Ron Dunn]

Let it go. Similar rules apply at Federal, State and Local government. There's certainly no corruption here, and there are plenty of people who agree with the rules in the manner they are defined. In fact, you often find non-couples pretending to be so in order to take advantage of the different levels of treatment available from some government departments.

You're bordering on irrational in the way you've presented this problem. I strongly recommend you seek some professional help before it destroys you.

[Fantapantz]

Corruption is too strong a word. Maladministration fits better. My issue is the victimisation (see section 130 of the act),not the initial breach.

If you have ever read the Anti-Discrimination Act one of its purposes is to prevent the need for people lying about there marital status.. Thats why they call it discrimination. And yes government departments do tend to believe they are above the law, and still expect others to follow the law, but there's this little line that states "this act binds the crown", that means the government says its departments arenot exempt. That is, the parliment stes that government departments have to follow the rules like everyone else. Cases such as Dobson that have gone to the high court show the true intent of the law, and that is that everyone must follow ther law including the government. If the governemt wants an exemption they can apply for one like everyone else.

My issue grew out of so called flexibility with the law. The law unfortunately is the L-A-W. My problem isn't with a little flexibility it's the intimidation that occurs if you expect a government department to behave legally. Not wanting to follow the ADA wrt marital status now has government employees victimising other employees (Maximum penalty about $3000 or 3 months in prison). After the victimisation the employee/s that did the victimisation are under the thumb of there superior. If your boss wanted you to do something illegal and you knew he knew that you are guilty of an offence where you could be sent to gaol for 3 months would you be pressured? Is this pressure bribery? Is bribery corruption? Does flexibility with the law lead to corruption?


Where does flexibility with the law stop and maladministration start?
Where does maladministration stop and corruption start?

In a 60km/hr zone I do 65km/hr, the policeman pulls me over and wants to give me a ticket. I explain to him that I was just being flexible with the law because a lot of people assume you can do 10 over and not get a ticket. Of course he doesn't give me a ticket. Why? Because he knows my flexibility didn't hurt anyone. Yeah right...

[echnidna]

move on

[prozac]

Fanta I'm glad you got the message about the union. There is someone in every union who has the power to hang you out if, and they often do, they have the ear of the employer. Yeah I know that this is corruption as well but accept it as normal because ppl will always seek out a better deal for themselves their family or friends without a second thought of about morality.

Whilst the situation you are in hardly seems fair, NOTHING will change when you have your breakdown and slash your wrists.

Take stress leave and do as Ron says and get a phsyc consult referal from your GP. Ron has hit the nail on the head, you are a bit out there on the stability scale (this is meant kindly), and placing too much importance on tilting at windmills.

And Fanta, take the tablets if you are prescribed them. There are more than a few here who do.

Now let go and start living your life.

[Fantapantz]

Hows this for a classic.

Me: Ask for a copy of an investigation interview and find that it's been modified after I eventually recieve it.

Me: Ask my union for their copy.

Union: They never sent us a copy of the interview even though we asked for it.

Union (three weeks latter): I found a copy of the CD, it fell to the bottom of my drawer.

Note: Union copy has the right date, but still has parts missing. Spectrum analysis shows that the Union copy and the Departmental copy are identical even though the Department copy shows that it had been modified at a latter date.

For those not so conspiracy oriantated as me, it took the dip-zits three weeks to figure out how to change the time settings on a computer, check dates and burn a CD. Once again a file does not show modification unless it has been opened by a program that can edit it, it is edited, and then it is saved. How to get an old modification on a file that you don't want changed? Edit it and then undo the edit before saving.

Never mind guys. The lawyer sort is now sorting through the stench.

[prozac]

Nice to see that you are still with us Fanta, I was a bit worried that I had been rude whilst genuinely being worried about your well being. I apologise if I was too direct but this sh*t can really tell on your mental health when it takes over your life.
Yes I do believe in conspiracies...I did say don't trust the union reps. Some of the computer types here would be able to confirm but if you know the computer that was used to modify the file a search of the hard drive will reveal any file modifications made, and changes to the date in the bios settings.

Keep an eye on your health and even ask friends if they think you are traveling ok, it's hard to be objective about yourself.

Qld justice...just remember Our Pauline got locked away unlawfully because of conspiracy. Why more heads did not roll over that I don't know, but then they brushed Kevin747's misdeameanour under the carpet too! Ah Qld, perfect one day, still bl**dy Qld the next.

[Fantapantz]

Spare time so here's the follow up.

I checked emails about my previous post by the way. They got the right date but not the right time to relate to their emails. The copy forwarded by the union was burnt in the afternoon. The department emailed me in the morning and said they had already sent a copy to my union. The only possible outcome is my union lied to me and the department lied to me. If people are going to lie can they please get their stories straight. Conspiracy theory not. Conspiracy yes.

Anyway. I complained through the ADCQ (almost 60 pages of detail) and they phoned me asking for additional information. I sent the additional information (ie the discriminatory policy), and they made a decision in favour of the government policy. When I questioned them they stated that they couldn't open the file because it was security protected and their virus scanner wouldn't allow it to be opened.

So they made a decision on a policy that they didn't even look at. Good old Queensland eh.

I suppose I'll have to wait 28 days for a reply like last time. Drag it out if they can.

I'm not expecting much through the qld system and expect to have to go federal so at the moment it's just a game.

[Fantapantz]

The most disapointing thing about all this is that I was naive enough to think that our political system was OK previously, and I was wrong. The present cronyism stated in the media is just the tip of the iceburg. Fitzgerald is right, having legislation is one thing, having a government that upholds its legislation is a totally different story.

Decisions can not be made for the "greater good" by individuals when those decisions ignore legislation. If legislation needs to be changed or be more flexible, it needs to be written into the legislation. Human beings are generally self serving, it is only the system of government that can serve the greater good, and to do so it must be open and accountable.

Close the doors to decisons and you close the doors to accountability.

[Fantapantz]

I suppose this isn't a health issue any more. It's a philosophical discussion.

If government employees knows that they are breaking the law through their actions, should the government pay off the complainant or discipline the empoyees?

Should the possible disruption to governemnt be counted as more important than correcting the problem?

Which decisions are benefitial to the long term culture of the government?

Does the government have any appreciation for the long term goals for society?

[prozac]

Fanta, it's time to break the chain. This sort of stress without a remedy will cause you health problems.