Lumber Bunker 22nd January 2009, 01:38 AM ***Rant on***
With the news that Organoil, is in receivership, Triton/GMC are defunct. This is another example of the Bunnings pfenonomonom (i can't even say that word let alone spell it, some one help please:- ) Bessy Clamps used to be fully stocked, now only a few standards, no K-Bodys, let alone the new K Body revo's :2tsup:. Some Irwins and lots of Junk. *** This is not an Attack Bunnings thread, this is a save Australia Thread!!!***
Soon the Bunnings mantra will be hard to beat, "If you can find it cheaper we'll beat it by 10%". There will be no where else! and even if there was somewhere else, they will not stock the same products as many companies supply only to the big B so prices shall climb un-checked!
Here on the Central Coast, Two Mitre 10's are closing /closed that I know of so even if you wanted choice you have none close by.
Is there a common thread between the closing of these great Aussie companies and supplying to the retail giants?
As I understand it Bunnings doesn't own any of the stock in there store, it's sold via consignment, travelling sales reps from the individual companies are responsible for their stock levels. (you'll see occasionally, "staff", not in green and red stocking the racks). This must give MASSIVE cash flow problems for the suppliers! Many profitable companies go bust because they can't pay their bills!
Combine this with stupid 3 year warranties for tools that will not last two jobs. and the returns pile is soon stacked higher then the new pile. I guess they figure that most people will only use an item once and throw it anyway "cause it's so cheap"
You can bet your a*se if my $600 cordless drill quits on me i'll be expecting a fix/replacement but I figure most people will drop their $19.95 drill in the bin once they are done.
Thank you very much Comsumerism and Vertically Integrated Companies, who charge way too much for patented spare parts, it is usually cheaper to replace the whole tool then to get a part in. I remember taking a tool to get fixed not replaced!
What I'm getting to is we must support each other. Buy Australian Made products. or Buy good products from Australian suppliers, even if they are from OS, but buy for keeps. Yes even from Bunnings.
If you can't afford a good (new) tool you can't have it! Good or bad! (Save up and get the one that will last you more then one job). Buy second hand (often better then new in some cases).
If you just need it for this one thing do you really need it? ask a friend, or your dad i bet he's got a do-wacker some where in the shed... :roll: Or rent it, it'll cost the same as the crap one, you get to keep it for just as long (24hours) and you get to use the good one! :rolleyes:
What I'd like to propose is a List of companies with whom you've dealt with and still have and use their product for longer then, say 3 years and is still in good (great) order, that others can refer too, for advice on quality tools and other wood associated items
I'll start...
HNT Gordon (hand tools)
P&N (Taps and Dies, drills, woodturning chisels.)
Veritas (hand tools
Lie-Neilsen (hand tools)
Bessy (Clamps)
Pfeil (carving tools)
Makita (Japan or German)
Organoil (my furniture still looks good!)
Stabilia (levels)
Carb-i-tool router bits
JET/Powermatic (machinery)
MicroClean (air filters)
U-beaut (finishes)
Gilly Stephens (finishes)
Stubai (chisels)
2nd hand
Dawn (vices and clamps)
Moore and Wright (measuring tools)
Elu (Routers)
Stanley (2nd hand pre-WW2)
Disston (saws)
Titian (chisels)
Berg (chisels)
Whiterby (chisels)
That's all i got for now. As you can see there are a few Aussie companies in there. But not that many. But most bought from Aussie suppliers, because I figure that the tax i pay on an item here and the income tax the aussie supplier pays on his "profit" help keep my roads is great shape, police in schools and hospital waiting lists down :C
No negatives here please, just good solid companies.
The Nice Guys List
***Rant Off***
eddie the eagle 22nd January 2009, 07:44 AM Hi Steve,
Suttons - Drill/Tap manufacturer - very good
Bosch professional tooling (dark blue casings,) not the cheaper ones.
I suppose Festo/Festool should also get a mention, even though I don't have any.
Lamello are excellent quality in fit and finish, as well as quality.
Virutex are also good quality and innovative power tools (I've used their equipment in a commercial setting - had been going strong for about 10 years when I used it.)
There's a good manufacturer of HT bolts in Melbourne, not Ajax fasteners (went into receivership a couple of years ago.) I get them through Linsell Fasteners in Chipping Norton.
Cheers,
eddie
tea lady 22nd January 2009, 08:14 AM In their add they say that they have everything you need.:doh: And you'll walk out happy. :((
Ooooops! Sorry That's a negative. Didn't read your whole post. :wirried.
Cliff Rogers 22nd January 2009, 08:25 AM Not directly related but sort of cuts accross.... Crazy Clarks & The Warehouse (owned by the same company) have gone into administration too now.
Pat 22nd January 2009, 09:10 AM Paul Call (clamps) 2nd hand
Mituyoyo (Measurement)
Starett (Measurement)
Lee Valley/Veritas
Groggy 22nd January 2009, 09:15 AM Frontline panel clamps and bandsaw jigs are the bees knees.
Fein
Bordo
Barry_White 22nd January 2009, 09:41 AM Ramset Fasteners Dynadrills and Powder Actuated Tools
BOC Welders
On Saturday my Mig Welder did a switch and needed to do some welding. So I thought I will just go into Bunnings and buy a cheap Ozito welder to get the job done. Stopped at the local Metaland Franchise to pick up a couple of lengths of steel and ended up buying a BOC Inverter welder instead. Cost me an extra $280 over the Ozito but I think well worth it
The result was Bunnings were done out of a sale and I supported a local retailer. Bunnings certainly wont miss the sale but at least it will help the local retailer and to boot I got a better machine.
damian 22nd January 2009, 09:45 AM I may be wrong but I believe CC bought out the wharehouse about 12 months ago and renamed them all sams wharehouse. The wharehouse is a NZ operation, or was. I assume CC debted up, bought the business and then like so many couldn't manage the gearing now the finance market has gone belly up. This is all speculation, I noticed the name change about 6 months or so ago.
On topic, I really think your overreacting. We had just this sort of concern when the Japanese were in ascendency. IMO what has actually happened is the Americans have developed surfdome to a new level. In dark ages europe aristocrates had an interest in keeping their surfs at a certain level of health and contentment as they needed them to work for them. Slaves present the same problem. Now the American rich have discovered you can outsource your slaves, pillage a reigon for all it has to offer and when the population is devistated and the resources exhausted you move on to the next victim. China is at stage 1, cheap labour, stage 2 is consumerism, stage 3 is abandonment (where Japan is now). India is a half step behind china, and when they run out of asian countries to exploit they'll move on to africa or south america.
The Bunnings issue is similar. These sort of businesses have been around since at least the 70's. They blitz advertise and try to survive on turnover. Sooner or later the consumer gets bored and moves on to the next one. In the past it's been clothing and electronics, applying the formula to hardware is new to Australia, but the model will spread.
Bob38S 22nd January 2009, 10:38 AM B&D / Dewalt / Tatry - Radial Arm Saw
Elu - jigsaw and belt sander
Hitachi - router TR 12
McMillan - air compressor
AEG - 1/2" corded drill
petersemple 22nd January 2009, 11:08 AM Hitachi - my cordless drill probably wouldn't cut it for a tradie, but for regular home use it's just brilliant and has lasted well. Got it from Mitre 10, and the sales guy took ages to take me through all their drills and all the pro's and cons
Triton router
Bosch Blue
Old stanley hand planes
Durden second hand
I have actually been pleasantly surprised by a few Ozito products I have bought. Certainly not up to trade quality but for average DIY use (once a fortnight or so and one or two really big jobs in a year) they seem OK
Karl1 22nd January 2009, 11:36 AM Bosch power drill. Purchased in the UK in 1988 and still performing without a hitch.
Lumber Bunker 22nd January 2009, 08:24 PM It's good to see the old names in this list.
But it shows that even the best are now producing to a price point, ie Makita "made is china" vs Makita "Made in Japan/Germany"
When I was in Berlin about 5 years ago i thought i could pick up a cheap-er drill but found they where more exey with exchange rate etc.
So i bought it when i came home from a local. and no power cord issues to boot.
Lumber Bunker 22nd January 2009, 08:31 PM I noticed another product missing in action. Wattyl, paints.... not at the big B anymore only the New Nippon paints that they are pushing.
Hopefully they can support their "smaller" retailers.
bsrlee 22nd January 2009, 09:46 PM According to my late father, this sort of bastardry has been going on in Australian industry since before the Second World War, when Woolies - amongst others - would order ever increasing quantities of a product from a local manufacturer and get bulk discounts.
They then kept this up until the supplier had to buy new plant to keep up with 'demand' and became totally focussed on selling to 'the big company' - as soon as the new plant was installed they would then demand a discount that placed their price at or below the suppliers cost - if they didn't get it they just stopped buying anything from that supplier. The usual result of this was that the supplier went under with a large amount of stock, which could then be bought for next to nothing from the receivers or at the bankruptcy auction. After digesting the 'kill' the 'big company' would then move on to the next victim. This seems to be the game that was played with GMC.
The other game, which is done at the retail level, is the ridiculous discount game, where the 'big company' opens a store & proceeds to make a loss selling from that store until they break those they see as possible competitors, where upon they can increase their prices to recover the 'losses' plus get enough extra in to repeat the game at another centre. Eventually you find that there is no choice and you are paying top dollar for cheap re-badged c#@p. Even the shock journalists don't have to beat this up much for a story, its all out there in the local food halls.
Chris Parks 22nd January 2009, 09:58 PM Wesfarmers, Bunnings parent company went into a trading suspension today. Their corporate debt is huge and they are trying to raise capital via their existing shareholders, not paying them all the dividend. Buying Coles may not have been such a smart move after all. I bet there are a few P'd off shareholders tomorrow. Doing this admits they have problems, I am glad I don't have any of their stock.
Jeff@G 23rd January 2009, 12:30 AM Forbes on Port rd. Adelaide.
The Pro-air 12521 air compressor has been an industry standard for 20+ years. Only minor component changes over that time & still available today.
I bought one 2nd hand & took it to Forbes for a service. Oil, filters & a new guage after never having been serviced in 20 years (Not switched on for the last 3 years)... Filled it's 70 litre tank from empty to 125psi cut out only 2 seconds slower than a brand new machine.
Yes they are expensive but damn they are a good unit. Oh, and the electric motor & everything else except the pump is made in Australia
Jeff.
Wood Borer 23rd January 2009, 07:22 AM I have found the service from Felder to be exceptional too.
Unfortunately there will probably be a few more companies go under so perhaps we should all stock up on critical spares in case they aren't available in a couple of years. Purchasing spares may just help some struggling Aussie companies stay afloat.
Investing your hard earned $'s in spares and new equipment is probably a wiser move than losing it in super or bank fees.
If shareholders go bust, bad luck. They take the gamble at hitting the jackpot no different to playing the pokies.
They don't lose a wink of sleep if their sometimes healthy dividends are at the expense of Australian jobs and companies. When they start losing however, we are all meant to be sorry for them and bail them out.
Every dog has their day.:U
Cliff Rogers 23rd January 2009, 08:20 AM ...Investing your hard earned $'s in spares and new equipment is probably a wiser move than losing it in super or bank fees. ....
That is what I reckon too. :D
barnsey 23rd January 2009, 10:25 AM Spare parts!!!!
They are as rare as rocking horse s$%t!!!
Consumerism has gone crazy. Only the most costly brands are prepared to support their products to any degree. It is all a throw away mentality. All those traditional repair industries are also equally threatened. And of course the cost for said spares is almost, if not totally, cost prohibitive into the bargain.
I am aware that Stanley/Dawn in Australia had a vast range of spares and repair items - they largely went west with the death of the last guy who could identify and use them!!!
Maybe the carbon emission thing will alter the mentality but I fear not. The engineering required to produce these cheapies is not so far from that required to produce higher quality. We need something to force that quality approach.
OK - off the soap box
Jamie
hazard 26th January 2009, 11:10 PM Woodfast!!! People who still care about giving service to their customers. A very rare commodity. :):):2tsup:
Blue Bosch lasts for ever.:2tsup:
Cheers, Hazard
Exador 27th January 2009, 07:42 AM According to my late father, this sort of bastardry has been going on in Australian industry since before the Second World War, when Woolies - amongst others - would order ever increasing quantities of a product from a local manufacturer and get bulk discounts.
They then kept this up until the supplier had to buy new plant to keep up with 'demand' and became totally focussed on selling to 'the big company' - as soon as the new plant was installed they would then demand a discount that placed their price at or below the suppliers cost - if they didn't get it they just stopped buying anything from that supplier.
Woolworths are still doing exactly that. My previous address had a business called Sunshine Foods across the road. They won a contract to supply Woolworths with "ready to cook" pizzas that were fresh, not frozen. After they ramped up production over a 12-month or so period, Woolworths came back to them, telling them they were too expensive and that they wanted a price reduction. The price they offered was under the price of production, so Sunshine told them to go jump, shut down the line, sacked the 15 or so staff they were employing to operate it and sold off the equipment. They were fortunate in that it didn't force them to close the business, but that wasn't down to Woolworths good business ethics.
I was in Woolworths recently and noticed they have a new supplier of "ready to cook" pizzas. I wonder how long before this one goes under?
Having said all that, I still shop at Woolworths rather than Coles, because Coles were the initiator of the "category killer" specialty "warehouses" here in Oz. I won't knowingly shop at any business owned by Coles/Myer as it was. It would be nice if my choice wasn't between two equally unethical and destructive organisations, but included an option to use a genuinely worthy alternative.
AlexS 27th January 2009, 07:54 AM I live just around the corner from a big B, but I find the service is better at Thornleigh Timber & Hardware, Hornsby T & H, Mitre 10 Hornsby and John's Paints, Hornsby (where I can at least buy decent abrasives!)
toolbagsPLUS 27th January 2009, 08:55 AM Great thread, got me thinking:C I just went for a wonder around the workshop and came up with a few more:
Woodfast (picked up a great combo machine (1960 vintage), cast iron, dust at no extra charge. $150.00, will out last me!!)
Pax Saw from UK
Carter Planes, Falcon and Pope Planes all were Aussie made.
The other which is pommy made, but good gear, Footprint.
And if i can get a plug in here all ToolbagsPlus's, Plane Slippers, Chisel Rolls and Workshop aprons are made in Qld. on the Gold Coast.
To expensive for Bunning I'm affaid!:o
:doh:Oh and Vicmarc of course.
Keep the list alive
Cheers
Steve
jmk89 27th January 2009, 09:20 AM Don't forget Maka's leather goods
In terms of stores, I am lucky to have Lindfield Hardware just around the corner - I think they are supplied by the same people that supply Home, but they aren't controlled by anyone other than the owner. Their range is pretty good ( it has been refined over the years to suit what locals are likely to need and since many of the houses in the area were built in the period 1900 - 1939, they often carry stock that Bunnings don't of a kind that I need for my (1925) house repairs).
More importantly, if you are prepared to wait until the customers wanting to buy something have been served, they will help you go through their catalogues from their suppliers to find the thing you want and order it in - usually if I go there on a weekend, it will be there to pick up by the next weekend.
It might be more expensive than a BIG BOX (thought I doubt it after time and petrol including on wild goose chases are accounted for), but I will pay that extra to know that someone local can get whatever I want, so long as I don't make extravagent demands on their time or expertise.
koala_1977 27th January 2009, 09:26 AM mmmmm interesting debate happening. Whilest I have a variety of tools within the shed ranging from makita thru to ozito I believe the way the economy of this country is going the business attitudes of the little dad and dave businesses cant compete unless they are able to change their thoughts. Yes bunnings is a big shop, whiliest i have found that some bunnigs are good and others well...... its all up to I believe and what the focus is should on is customer service not who sells the cheapest. In todays age the ability for a person to work into a shop buy what they want then and there and not wait two weeks is what it is all about. yes other hardwares cant compete but no one has sucessfully come up with a mode;l that will put bunnnings to task. I compared prices of the same packets of sandpaper at two shops one was $3 dearer than the other of course i went with the cheaper option, why..... its $3 in my pocket not theres, as for quality of tooling if it serves the purpose of what your trying to achieve, with an out come that you want, well then its value for money. some thoughts to consider. at the end of the day the choice is yours.
jmk89 27th January 2009, 09:51 AM PS and don't forget Pauls City Hardware for lunchtime entertainment in Sydney CBD!
damian 27th January 2009, 11:06 AM Ah yes Lindfield hardware. I used to live in Lindfield years ago. They were very good.
Stafford St Hardware in Booval, between Brisbane and Ipswich, Queensland.
I've seen him tear customers apart, but it seems he and I are on the same plane, so I've never had a lecture. Anyway, old fashioned hardware store and often much cheaper than bunnings. Has lots of useful stuff like knobs and drawer runners and stuff. Just drink heavily before entering :)
Sawdust Maker 27th January 2009, 03:52 PM Pauls city hardware is a bastion of helpfulness in the big city
I'd enter my old Sidchrome spanners and sockets (30 odd years old now :o) in the old tools category
Teknatool (I know not local but from just across the ditch)
Has Organoil really gone into administration? Bvgger
spokeshave 29th January 2009, 09:00 PM I love my Colen Clenton square. Beautiful.:2tsup:
I even got to meet it's maker at the Melbourne WWW Show.
Steven.
Claw Hama 29th January 2009, 09:34 PM Great thread Steve, yes go for Australian if you can if not go the best you can aford. If I buy a quality product I convince myself that if you divided the price over the next 20years they always work out better value than the cheap crap. And support the small players if you can ie Chris Vesper and all our other local quality tool makers. And their tools last for ever.
Makita 4" grinder 10, 12 years can't remember has a hard life.
Makita belt sander 20years + (new brushes $7) Amazing amount of work.
Hitachi 2 speed hammer drill 20years +
Hitachi circular saw 20years + ( not just timber, steel, concrete also)
Second hand Markita sliding compound 1214 saw goes like new.
Hitachi cordless hamer drill, 2 years continuos work almost every day.
CIG portable welder (little brick) 25 years ish.
Bosh electric plane, miles of hardwood slabs.
Lots of second hand hand tools from the markets, Stanley planes, my favourite Footprint plane (No5), Chisels, hammers, adze, etc etc etc
Expat 31st January 2009, 07:58 AM On topic, I really think your overreacting. We had just this sort of concern when the Japanese were in ascendency. IMO what has actually happened is the Americans have developed surfdome to a new level. In dark ages europe aristocrates had an interest in keeping their surfs at a certain level of health and contentment as they needed them to work for them. Slaves present the same problem. Now the American rich have discovered you can outsource your slaves, pillage a reigon for all it has to offer and when the population is devistated and the resources exhausted you move on to the next victim. China is at stage 1, cheap labour, stage 2 is consumerism, stage 3 is abandonment (where Japan is now). India is a half step behind china, and when they run out of asian countries to exploit they'll move on to africa or south america.
The Bunnings issue is similar. These sort of businesses have been around since at least the 70's. They blitz advertise and try to survive on turnover. Sooner or later the consumer gets bored and moves on to the next one. In the past it's been clothing and electronics, applying the formula to hardware is new to Australia, but the model will spread.
As soon as i started reading this thread it all became very familiar to me. It's pretty much what I experienced as a kid growing up in Brissie where our local hardware store carried "everything" you needed and then suddenly they were gone and you had to drive to the big new glitzy Mitre10. In Canada the little specialist tool and building stores are almost all gone especially now the big war is on between Home Depot, Lowes and Rona. You see essentially the same crap in every store and it's only places like Lee Valley, Busy Bee Tools, Markham Industrial and few regional stores with an internet presence aqnd reputation that actually offer more than the pablum served up by the big boxes.
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